What is a Surgeon?

[Winged Scapula]

So wait, now I'm confused.

Do you agree that OB/GYNs are surgeons or not?

No I do not.

So would it be safe to say that OB/GYNs are Gynecologic surgeons?

are the OB/GYN trained Urogynecology guys not surgeons?

I think you are attempting to split hairs too finely.

If you have surgical training (which Ob Gyn is not, they are trained to do *some* surgical procedures which does not a surgeon make) and your practice is doing surgery, then you are a surgery. Family pracitioners remove appendices and do hernia repairs, that does not make them surgeons.

A Gyne Oncologist is a surgeon, not because of their Ob-Gyn training, but in spite of it. Its the fellowship training and their day to day practice which is surgical and makes them surgeons.

At any rate, this has been discussed extensively above.

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[Black Surgeon]

No I do not.





I think you are attempting to split hairs too finely.

If you have surgical training (which Ob Gyn is not, they are trained to do *some* surgical procedures which does not a surgeon make) and your practice is doing surgery, then you are a surgery. Family pracitioners remove appendices and do hernia repairs, that does not make them surgeons any more than surgeons.

A Gyne Oncologist is a surgeon, not because of their Ob-Gyn training, but in spite of it. Its the fellowship training and their day to day practice which is surgical and makes them surgeons.

At any rate, this has been discussed extensively above.

Ok. You have made your point, I respectfully agree to disagree and will now allow this thread to digress on to a new topic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ok. You have made your point, I respectfully agree to disagree and will now allow this thread to digress on to a new topic.

You are allowed to disagree and I appreciate the respect, but don't you think that as a pre-med that you have much less to contribute to the conversation than someone who has actually done a full surgical residency, or those that are currently doing it?

How is it that you know what being a surgeon is?

It appears akin to me telling an attorney what his job is like because I've watched an episode of LA Law.

 

[Black Surgeon]

You are allowed to disagree and I appreciate the respect, but don't you think that as a pre-med that you have much less to contribute to the conversation than someone who has actually done a full surgical residency, or those that are currently doing it?

How is it that you know what being a surgeon is?

It appears akin to me telling an attorney what his job is like because I've watched an episode of LA Law.

I was wondering when the "you're just a pre-med" comment was going to surface . I would argue that the fact that I haven't been through a surgical residency allows me to have more of an objective and unbiased opinion.

"It appears akin" to physicians telling law makers that they are better suited to create healthcare policies because they have been through Medical school.

 

[Mariah246]

I would argue that the fact that I haven't been through a surgical residency allows me to have more of an objective and unbiased opinion.

It's this logic that often keeps people out of medical school. And an ensuing surgical residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was wondering when the "you're just a pre-med" comment was going to surface . I would argue that the fact that I haven't been through a surgical residency allows me to have more of an objective and unbiased opinion.

Well, I don't like to pull that out of my bag of comments, but I think it relevant here.

As a matter of fact, even though I've been a pre-med I no longer participate much in the pre-med forums because things have changed in the decade plus since was a pre-med.

But the fact is that this is not a debate where being "objective" means anything. You cannot, IMHO, understand what a surgeon is unless you've been there. It requires SUBJECTIVITY.

This is clearly a topic that engenders a lot of dissent from outside the surgical world. In my opionion, every one wants to call themselves a surgeon but they don't want to walk the walk. If you haven't done the training, you can't call yourself a surgeon, plain and simple.

Doctors who do procedures and haven't been trained as a surgeon, aren't surgeons...this goes for hair transplantation, family practitioners doing hernia repairs and Ob-Gyns doing laser vaginal rejuvination.

It is clear that when you refer to yourself as a surgeon, the public and to some extent, expects that you are a general surgeon and have done the training. Some practitioners take advantage of this.

"It appears akin" to physicians telling law makers that they are better suited to create healthcare policies because they have been through Medical school.

Do you not think that having some knowledge about how health care works isn't required? That said, I don't think physicians are good policy makers for the most part.

 

[smq123]

So wait, now I'm confused.

Do you agree that OB/GYNs are surgeons or not?

The real question is: as a pre-med, why the he** do you care?

Does it really matter to you, either way, if OB/gyns are considered surgeons or not? Or are you here just to stir up trouble?

 

[Black Surgeon]

The real question is: as a pre-med, why the he** do you care?

Does it really matter to you, either way, if OB/gyns are considered surgeons or not? Or are you here just to stir up trouble?

Well yes, I am a pre-med but I will be a Medical school student in 3 months and hopefully in a surgical residency four years after that. Do pre-meds not have the right to partake in a conversation? My comments have all been relevant to the original question posed by the OP: What is a surgeon? How in heaven is that stirring up trouble?

Furthermore, one of my mentors: Dr. David Matlock (an OB/GYN) is one of the fathers of vaginal rejuvenation surgery and I would be d....d if someone is going to stand here and tell me that he is not a surgeon. To me, he is and will always be a surgeon.

Some of us enjoy having stimulating arguments and have the maturity to not get offended when there is a difference in opinion.

Winged Scapula took no offence to my disagreement, so why are you being so hostile?

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

]

Furthermore, one of my mentors: Dr. David Matlock (an OB/GYN) is the father of vaginal rejuvenation surgery and I would be d....d if someone is going to stand here and tell me that he is not a surgeon. To me, he is and will always be a surgeon.

To me he'll always be a shyster whose appearance on a trashy E network show (displaying his monetary compensation for an obvious inferiority complex) damages the medical profession.

 

[smq123]

Well yes, I am a pre-med but I will be a Medical school student in 3 months and hopefully in a surgical residency four years after that. Do pre-meds not have the right to partake in a conversation? My comments have all been relevant to the original question posed by the OP: What is a surgeon? How in heaven is that stirring up trouble?

Furthermore, one of my mentors: Dr. David Matlock (an OB/GYN) is one of the fathers of vaginal rejuvenation surgery and I would be d....d if someone is going to stand here and tell me that he is not a surgeon. To me, he is and will always be a surgeon.

Some of us enjoy having stimulating arguments and have the maturity to not get offended when there is a difference in opinion.

Winged Scapula took no offence to my disagreement, so why are you being so hostile?

I didn't take offense, but your repeated insistence that OB/gyns ought to be considered surgeons is kind of silly.

This is not a stimulating argument; this is insistence of something on the basis of purely emotional, nostalgic, and sentimental reasons.

I'm going into OB/gyn, and I don't even insist on calling them surgeons. The scope of practice is very different. Call them what they are - OB/gyns. If you go into a field that you enjoy, just call it for what it is.

 

[Black Surgeon]

I didn't take offense, but your repeated insistence that OB/gyns ought to be considered surgeons is kind of silly.

This is not a stimulating argument; this is insistence of something on the basis of purely emotional, nostalgic, and sentimental reasons.

I'm going into OB/gyn, and I don't even insist on calling them surgeons. The scope of practice is very different. Call them what they are - OB/gyns. If you go into a field that you enjoy, just call it for what it is.

"insistence"? In case you missed it, I made an attempt to put this subject to rest. This is what I wrote:

Ok. You have made your point, I respectfully agree to disagree and will now allow this thread to digress on to a new topic.

I find it funny that surgeons on surgical boards consider OB/GYN to be a SURGICAL SUBSPECIALTY but everyone in this thread completely disagrees.

This is not a name calling issue. I will always call a urologist a urologist but I will never dismiss the fact that he is indeed a surgeon, and the same could be said for OB/GYNs.

Congratulations for choosing to go into the great OB/GYN profession and I wish you all the luck the future has to hold.

 

[Mariah246]

Furthermore, one of my mentors: Dr. David Matlock

Oh god I can't stop

Heaven help you should that leak out on your clinical rotations.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This is beginning to make more sense.

If you are being mentored by a "gynecological surgeon" whom you clearly like and trust, then you are anything BUT objective and unbiased. Since Dr. Matlock refers to himself as a surgeon and you have a good relationship with him and obviously respect him, you feel that Ob-Gyns are rightfully to be called surgeons. I might take issue with the fact that what Dr. Matlock does is really "procedures" and not surgeries, but I think it best we leave him out of this, as it isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand.

Regardless of what surgeons on other "surgical boards" think about Ob-Gyn, a surgical sub-specialty is just that...a specialty done after initial surgery training. Ob-Gyn does not require a general surgery residency or even internship therefore, I think it incorrect to call it a surgical SUBspecialty. Gyne Onc, REI, MFM those are Ob-Gyn subspecialties; you cannot call them surgery subspecialties anymore than you can call Ob-Gyn a surgical subspecialty. A urologist is a surgeon because they have done a general surgery intern year and their entire residency is surgical in nature. The same cannot be said of Ob-Gyns.

Ob is a fine field, one I seriously considered myself. But let's call people what they are. NONE of the OB-Gyns I know call themselves gynecological surgeons, even the ones doing all gyne.

Finally, there is a predilection to disdain "tv doctors" here on SDN, rightfully or not, as well as in medical school and residency so expect to get some guffaws when you mention one.

But yes, lets let this thread die as it is a tiresome topic and we will never convince each other.

 

[howelljolly]

Nah, this thread isnt going to die any time soon.

Sure a D&C or endometrial ablation is a procedure. But what about a TAH-BSO, or vulvectomy and recontruction, or a pelvic floor recon? Doesnt that qualify as surgery? Assuming it does, then does the person doing one of these get to be called the surgeon?

Sure, the OB/Gyns that I know who do this sort of thing, call themselves gynecologists or gyn-oncologists. But its the principle.

What about a podiatrist who does an extended residency and gets Boarded by the Academy of Foot and Ankle Surgery. Is that a Foot and Ankle Surgeon?

What about an ENT or Urologist who is only in the OR one day per week? Still a surgeon?

Why does the title of "Surgeon" have to be some awe inspiring exclusive thing? A surgeon is someone who performs surgery. Thats all. Isnt it?

I had thought that a Surgeon is an expert in the diagnosis, operative and non-operative treatment, and management of surgical diseases. Well, thats what surgeons like my grandfather were.

Years ago, ERs were staffed by moonlighting surgeons, because they could suture, fluid resuscitate, reduce and splint, and diagnose an acute abdomen like no other.

Now, Im told that a surgeon is nothing but a consultant who touches a patient if and only if they are undergoing surgery.

Sure, internists with an interventional specialty, or 'skin cancer specialists' are not surgeons. But I would at least entertain the idea that some OMFS, podiatrists, and certainly some gynecologists are surgeons. Because if what those gynecologists are doing isn't called surgery... I dont know what is.

 

[SLUser11]

Regardless of what surgeons on other "surgical boards" think about Ob-Gyn, a surgical sub-specialty is just that...a specialty done after initial surgery training. Ob-Gyn does not require a general surgery residency or even internship therefore, I think it incorrect to call it a surgical SUBspecialty. Gyne Onc, REI, MFM those are Ob-Gyn subspecialties; you cannot call them surgery subspecialties anymore than you can call Ob-Gyn a surgical subspecialty. A urologist is a surgeon because they have done a general surgery intern year and their entire residency is surgical in nature. The same cannot be said of Ob-Gyns.

I think we're getting too caught up in semantics here. Do we really deserve complete ownership of the title Surgeon? No doubt, there are innumerable examples of people from all backgrounds that perform surgery on a daily basis, of varying levels of expertise and surgical volume.

And how can we decide that some surgical specialties deserve the title while others don't? I definitely don't think that an intern year in general surgery is the deciding factor.....that year is extremely variable in content. Also, I'm sure that there are OBGYN programs where the residents graduate with a larger number of operative cases than urology/ENT/Whatever, despite having a supposed "part time" surgical education.

I'm sorry, it's just too much of a gray area to be able to draw a definite line in the sand. In my opinion, everyone that performs surgery can call themselves surgeons. All you have to do is read their dictated operative note: Surgeon: Dr. Johnson, Procedure: whatever. If we really care that much, we better contact our coders and transcribers and make sure these imposters dictate themselves as the Primary Procedurist instead....

 

[howelljolly]

And how can we decide that some surgical specialties deserve the title while others don't? I definitely don't think that an intern year in general surgery is the deciding factor.....that year is extremely variable in content. Also, I'm sure that there are OBGYN programs where the residents graduate with a larger number of operative cases than urology/ENT/Whatever, despite having a supposed "part time" surgical education.

That too. We had this discussion a year or more ago, and I drew a possible distinction between physician and surgeon as being the medical or surgical internship... that Derm, and EM do medical internships, while Uro, ortho, etc do surgical internships....And I was chewed out for it.

I had also said that a Fellow of the American College of Physicians, a Fellow of the American College of Emergency Physicians... College of Chest Physicians... and any specialist who can become said fellow is a Physician

Any individual who is eligible for fellowship in the American College of Surgeons, including General, Vascular, Trauma, CT, and ......gasp... even Opthalmology... is a Surgeon. Also any individual who is boarded by the American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons.... Surgeons... Surgeons... Surgeon!!!

But, anything for a medical type to try to one-up their colleagues.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You're right...I was getting too caught up in semantics. I had a hard day and I think I got a bit miffed that a pre-med is telling me what a surgeon is.

I don't know what the real answer is although I disagree that OB-Gyn is a surgical subspecialty; its its own specialty. but it was pretty clear from the thread and poll above that most people agree with me - to call yourself a surgeon you need to complete a surgical residency.

My point above about the internship is not that the surgical internship is what makes someone a surgeon, but in response to BlackSurgeon who seemed to make no distinction between urologists and ob-gyns in terms of training. My point was that Urology is, IMHO, is a surgical specialty and the practitioners surgeons because they do a surgical internship year AND spend an entire residency doing surgical training.

I have never had a problem calling gyne oncologists who do pelvic floor reconstruction, radical vulvectomies or other cancer operations, surgeons. Sames goes for foot and ankle surgeons or ophthalmologists.

But let's also not deny that there is some cache to the term surgeon. If there wasn't, physicians wouldn't be trying to appropriate the term to convince others that wielding a laser to tighten up certain loose parts or putting in hair plugs makes them a surgeon.

So much for ending my discussion of the matter.

 

[Black Surgeon]

This is beginning to make more sense.

If you are being mentored by a "gynecological surgeon" whom you clearly like and trust, then you are anything BUT objective and unbiased. Since Dr. Matlock refers to himself as a surgeon and you have a good relationship with him and obviously respect him, you feel that Ob-Gyns are rightfully to be called surgeons. I might take issue with the fact that what Dr. Matlock does is really "procedures" and not surgeries, but I think it best we leave him out of this, as it isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand.

yes, I knew I was shooting the objectivism and unbiased argument in the foot when I let that info out.

You're right...I was getting too caught up in semantics. I had a hard day and I think I got a bit miffed that a pre-med is telling me what a surgeon is.

I don't know what the real answer is although I disagree that OB-Gyn is a surgical subspecialty; its its own specialty. but it was pretty clear from the thread and poll above that most people agree with me - to call yourself a surgeon you need to complete a surgical residency.

My point above about the internship is not that the surgical internship is what makes someone a surgeon, but in response to BlackSurgeon who seemed to make no distinction between urologists and ob-gyns in terms of training. My point was that Urology is, IMHO, is a surgical specialty and the practitioners surgeons because they do a surgical internship year AND spend an entire residency doing surgical training.

I have never had a problem calling gyne oncologists who do pelvic floor reconstruction, radical vulvectomies or other cancer operations, surgeons. Sames goes for foot and ankle surgeons or ophthalmologists.

But let's also not deny that there is some cache to the term surgeon. If there wasn't, physicians wouldn't be trying to appropriate the term to convince others that wielding a laser to tighten up certain loose parts or putting in hair plugs makes them a surgeon.

So much for ending my discussion of the matter.

But anyways, SLUser11 and Howell Jolly have made great contributions to the conversation and I definitely agree with the bolded statement above.

 

[smq123]

My point above about the internship is not that the surgical internship is what makes someone a surgeon, but in response to BlackSurgeon who seemed to make no distinction between urologists and ob-gyns in terms of training. My point was that Urology is, IMHO, is a surgical specialty and the practitioners surgeons because they do a surgical internship year AND spend an entire residency doing surgical training.

I think BlackSurgeon is looking at a very limited area of OB/gyn when he says that they are "surgeons." And I guess that perspective is from a pre-med who has only seen one side of what an OB/gyn can do.

Urologists, as you said, spend most of their residency in the OR or on the surgical floors, with maybe 1 day a week in clinic. This mimics what general surgery residents do.

Compare that to OB/gyns who split up their time in the OR, L&D, OB triage, and outpatient/primary care - it is very different. But, if you're a pre-med whose only exposure to OB/gyn is shadowing a physician (who happens to be board certified in that field) in the OR, then you're going to have a VERY skewed understanding of what the field entails.

BlackSurgeon - I loved the surgical aspect of OB. I like being in the OR, and I love those huge open cases that the gyn onc people do. I had a very tough time deciding between OB/gyn and surgery. Ultimately, though, what swung me to the OB/gyn side was the other aspects of the field - MFM, L&D, and outpatient gynecological care. Unlike most surgeons, I actually like clinic. And I enjoy obstetrics, which is something that you rarely touch on in a gen surg residency.

But you can't enjoy the field for these aspects AND insist on saying that they're surgeons.

 

[Black Surgeon]

I think BlackSurgeon is looking at a very limited area of OB/gyn when he says that they are "surgeons."

Urologists, as you said, spend most of their residency in the OR or on the surgical floors, with maybe 1 day a week in clinic. This mimics what general surgery residents do.

Compare that to OB/gyns who split up their time in the OR, L&D, OB triage, and outpatient/primary care - it is very different. .

BlackSurgeon - I loved the surgical aspect of OB. I like being in the OR, and I love those huge open cases that the gyn onc people do. I had a very tough time deciding between OB/gyn and surgery. Ultimately, though, what swung me to the OB/gyn side was the other aspects of the field - MFM, L&D, and outpatient gynecological care. Unlike most surgeons, I actually like clinic. And I enjoy obstetrics, which is something that you rarely touch on in a gen surg residency.

But you can't enjoy the field for these aspects AND insist on saying that they're surgeons.

I see that the reoccurring thematic rhetoric which you guys keep alluding to is the fact that I'm a "pre-med". Hence your attempt to accentuate an element of naivety in my opinion. Well, this offers no validity to your argument.

And I guess that perspective is from a pre-med who has only seen one side of what an OB/gyn can do.

But, if you're a pre-med whose only exposure to OB/gyn is shadowing a physician (who happens to be board certified in that field) in the OR, then you're going to have a VERY skewed understanding of what the field entails.

funny , as if I'm completely oblivious to the clinical side of OB/GYN.


I'm trying my hardest to stop perpetuating this circular debate but some of these comments make it quite a tough feat.

 

[Mariah246]

funny , as if I'm completely oblivious to the clinical side of OB/GYN

I may be jumping the gun here (and I hope I'm wrong). But if Matlock has been your primary exposure to OBGYN or "surgery", you are completely oblivious to the clinical side of medicine in general.

 

[smq123]

I see that the reoccurring thematic rhetoric which you guys keep alluding to is the fact that I'm a "pre-med". Hence your attempt to accentuate an element of naivety in my opinion. Well, this offers no validity to your argument.

You sure like trying to find insulting insinuations that aren't there.

It's not a question of naivete, it's just a question of inexperience. Have you rotated through OB/gyn? Have you talked to a WIDE variety of OB/gyns, to see what their practices are like? Have you spent significant time in the outpatient GYN clinic, or on L&D?

Most pre-meds haven't. That's all.

funny , as if I'm completely oblivious to the clinical side of OB/GYN.

You may not be completely oblivious to the clinical side of OB/gyn, but you're not fully aware of it, either. Because, from your posts, you focus almost exclusively on the GYN surgical side of the field, ignoring the vast obstetrical and medical GYN aspect of it as well.

 

[smq123]

I dunno about the "vast" medical side of Ob/Gyn.

All I remember was being amazed that they use the same damn meds for both their pregnant and non-pregnant patients.

I mean really, how much medicine are you actually doing when you're giving out macrobid for UTIs and alpha-methyldopa for hypertension to women without a bun in the oven?

I go back and forth on whether or not Ob/Gyn is truly a "surgical" field. But the ones I worked for as a student definitely didn't rate the "Primary Care" label.

(Not trying to insult you, just taking one more quick shot on the Vag Docs before I go on my extended SDN hiatus )

Hush, I can hear you all the way up on my soapbox.





Why are you on an SDN hiatus, anyway? Come baaaack!

 

[476515678234896]

where I come from, we called them dental surgeons- which is a compliment. I used to think they were just glorified dentists, but I saw they do some involved complex cases, thus earning an attenuated surgeon status. They have trained hard in their field and are indeed Doctors. In fact, I think in the dental world, these guys are the top guns.

That being said, most of these guys DID NOT try to pass themselves off as medical surgeons. 99% of the time, they just wanted to do their cases and go home like the rest of us, and are pretty cool.

They are certainly much more advanced than a general dentist, but in my mind they dont meet the threshold of being called a surgeon without a qualifier of dental surgeon, OMFS surgeon, maxfac surgeon or whatever is in vogue at your hospital to give them their props.

A surgeon has graduated medical school and completed surgical residency.

I'm a bit confused. From what I understand, most OMFS go through a 6 year residency and graduate medical school (MD) during that time. Under your criterion, doesn't that qualify them to be a "surgeon"? a physician?

 

[pnle119]

I'm a bit confused. From what I understand, most OMFS go through a 6 year residency and graduate medical school (MD) during that time. Under your criterion, doesn't that qualify them to be a "surgeon"? a physician?

OMFS are DEFINITELY surgeons! In fact, I would consider them as being higher up in the echelon of surgical subspecialists. And no, I have no plans to pursue OMFS; I'm straight up GSurg.

 

[DREDAY]

I'm a bit confused. From what I understand, most OMFS go through a 6 year residency and graduate medical school (MD) during that time. Under your criterion, doesn't that qualify them to be a "surgeon"? a physician?

You are correct. OMFS are surgeons no question about it. It is such a truth, its not even worth arguing about.

 

[Ronin2258]

An old surgeon once told me, "A surgeon is a medicine doctor that offers definitive therapeutic modalities."

That one statement shaped my view of the specialty. Always kept that frame of mind to keep on top of the medical aspects, but realize that sometimes we have to go to the bright lights and cold steel (BL-CS) to treat the patient. Regardless of cure or not, removing parts of the body is definitive.

Knowing that BL-CS is high risk in and of itself, do what you can to optimize the patient's condition medically. If that fails, what can we offer in BL-CS that would be definitive?

There are some cases where the surgeon's hand is forced; Trauma, ruptures, and a few cancers that have been shown to be surgically curable. The others? Try to see what you can do medically first to either reduce the need or make the surgery as minimal as you can, reducing the risk.

My $0.02.

 

[phantomx87]

An old surgeon once told me, "A surgeon is a medicine doctor that offers definitive therapeutic modalities."

That one statement shaped my view of the specialty. Always kept that frame of mind to keep on top of the medical aspects, but realize that sometimes we have to go to the bright lights and cold steel (BL-CS) to treat the patient. Regardless of cure or not, removing parts of the body is definitive.

Knowing that BL-CS is high risk in and of itself, do what you can to optimize the patient's condition medically. If that fails, what can we offer in BL-CS that would be definitive?

There are some cases where the surgeon's hand is forced; Trauma, ruptures, and a few cancers that have been shown to be surgically curable. The others? Try to see what you can do medically first to either reduce the need or make the surgery as minimal as you can, reducing the risk.

My $0.02.

Really great post (obviously just my opinion). My old mentor (NS Spine) pretty much beat that into me since day one. On the first day of clinic, he told me that, unless it was an emergency, he wouldn't operate on any of his elective spine patients until he put them through the wringer (neurology, PT, etc etc). He wanted to make sure that he exhausted every other option before he cut. "Always remember, cutting is a last resort."

PS - Your signature makes me

 

[Black Surgeon]

Haha, who brought this old thread back? For the record, I still firmly believe that Ob/Gyns are surgeons.

 

[Shoushu]

I contend: being able to fly solo in an OR could make one a full-fledged surgeon.

What is a surgeon, Really, what is a doctor/physician? This has different meanings. In poor parts of the world that desperately need doctors, sometimes their med school programs are only 2 years long! This was true in a up-and-rising country like China, as recently as 10 years ago. Back then, one over there could call oneself a doctor/surgeon after a 2-year Associate Degree program. Now, you have to be at least a Bachelor of Medicine (5-year program).

Indeed, many of those young, fledgling surgeons came out at ages 18 or 20. That was the norm a few decades ago. Are they as good as the surgeons in the developed world? Most likely no. They are like technicians.

I remember a quote saying something like, "If a robot or smart monkey watches enough surgeries, it can be a surgeon too." Reminds me if 100 monkeys type forever, they can produce Complete Works of SHAKESPEARE

 

[Luv2Cut]

Ha ha. Good one. I like the saying, "You can wear a beanie with a propeller on it but that don't make you an ASTRONAUT."

I remember when I was a med student and I was on my surgery rotation. The respected and venerable chairman of the surgery dept told his residents, "You think your a surgeon now because you can do the procedures? Your not a surgeon. You can teach a monkey to do these procedures........When you become fascinated by the organs that you operate on......THEN you have become a surgeon."

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

I'll preface this by saying i'm just a lowly med student. I know we're getting huffy bout qualifications

1. That Matlock guy certainly appeared to be a tremendous d-bag on tv. Mentor? Duuuuuude. I hope he's more genuine in real life. Either way, I wouldn't flaunt an association with him for this reason, which might be unfortunate if he happens to somehow be a super guy. With ot without the tv show, though, I find it hard to seriously respect anyone who has dedicated their life's work to "vaginal rejuvenation." Whatever floats your boat, i suppose.

2. OB is definitely not surgery. But I agree that Ob/Gyn's who work as surgeons and have extra surgical training can call themselves surgeons. In some cases it might actually be less accurate to describe yourself as an OB/GYN than a surgeon. In some cases. I guess the "gyn" qualifier would still be best.

3. What about ophtho? This is a good one. Personally I think that while a lot of their procedures highly resemble surgery, in a lot of ways it's actually less "surgical" than OB. If you were stranded on a desert island with an OB and an Ophthalmologist, and you desperately needed an appy, and you happened to have a surgical suite, who would you chose?

I know this is all semantics. It's still an interesting topic, for some reason.

And by the way, why has nobody pointed out the irony behind Black Surgeon's screen-name? Done.

 

[Winged Scapula]

1. That Matlock guy certainly appeared to be a tremendous d-bag on tv. Mentor? Duuuuuude. I hope he's more genuine in real life. Either way, I wouldn't flaunt an association with him for this reason, which might be unfortunate if he happens to somehow be a super guy. With ot without the tv show, though, I find it hard to seriously respect anyone who has dedicated their life's work to "vaginal rejuvenation." Whatever floats your boat, i suppose.

We don't know Matlock but your point is valid. Students have to be careful about flaunting/mentioning anyone as a mentor because surgeons are prickly people in general, and the person you see as a mentor may be an incredible d-bag to a lot of others. Your association(s) can hurt you.

3. What about ophtho? This is a good one. Personally I think that while a lot of their procedures highly resemble surgery, in a lot of ways it's actually less "surgical" than OB.

Well the SDN Ophtho Moderator rallied for, and obtained, the right to designate the forum as "Eye Surgeons" so they definitely call themselves surgeons.

If you were stranded on a desert island with an OB and an Ophthalmologist, and you desperately needed an appy, and you happened to have a surgical suite, who would you chose?

Not a good analogy - OBs actually quite often do appendectomies (or at least they did) during TAH & BSO. Let's say you needed a cholecystectomy, AAA or hernia repair instead.

And by the way, why has nobody pointed out the irony behind Black Surgeon's screen-name? Done.

I guess because we don't get it...

(he's Black/AA and a student planning on going into Surgery; what is the irony?)

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Blast! You're so literal. Tell me who you'd want to cut you open!

Oh, and I was referring to a liberal usage of the surgeon label. So let me get this straight... If we're in a bar picking up chicks, it's not ok to lie and say we're surgeons, even if the said liar is a resident, but it's cool for pre-meds to do on SDN? Whatever. What-ever.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Blast! You're so literal. Tell me who you'd want to cut you open!

Oh, and I was referring to a liberal usage of the surgeon label. So let me get this straight... If we're in a bar picking up chicks, it's not ok to lie and say we're surgeons, even if the said liar is a resident, but it's cool for pre-meds to do on SDN? Whatever. What-ever.

Ok.

1) he's not a pre med

2) you have used the word "irony" incorrectly. It is not ironic that we have a medical student using the word surgeon in his user name. Presumptuous or arrogant perhaps but not ironic (I blame Alanis Morrissette for the common misusage of the term).

3) no one was arguing that its not ok for surgical residents to call themselves surgeons. The whole thread was started because of non-surgeons calling themselves surgeons (ie, GI calling themselves gastrointestinal surgeons, hair transplanters, etc.). I don't have a problem with a surgical resident calling themselves a surgeon although surgical resident would be more accurate. But its not ironic.

4) a med student or pre-med using it on an internet BB as a user name is a whole different story than someone using it willingly as a lie to try and impress women/men to hopefully have sex with them. If aforementioned student were lying about being a surgeon on the BB, that would be a different story. So yeah...there is a difference, at least IMHO. I don't spend my time worrying about it anymore than I do the pre-med user names like "MD2B", "DOtoGo", "FutureSurgeon" (the last one is real and a riot. Read his posts (which are clearly written by his Ophtho father.)

 

[Buzz Me]

Presumptuous or arrogant perhaps but not ironic (I blame Alanis Morrissette for the common misusage of the term).

It's ironic that Alanis Morisette's song "Ironic" isn't about irony.

 

[Kizzel]

3. What about ophtho? This is a good one. Personally I think that while a lot of their procedures highly resemble surgery, in a lot of ways it's actually less "surgical" than OB. .

Of course Ophtho is a surgical specialty. Have you ever seen some of the complicated retina cases? These require a tremendous amount of dexterity and intricate movements that are rarely seen in other surgical specialties. Think about it, one wrong move the patient is blind. To say otherwise is just nonsensical.

 

[MossPoh]

Of course Ophtho is a surgical specialty. Have you ever seen some of the complicated retina cases? These require a tremendous amount of dexterity and intricate movements that are rarely seen in other surgical specialties. Think about it, one wrong move the patient is blind. To say otherwise is just nonsensical.

In that light, is interventional radiology or the like considered surgery? What if they are a medical ophthalmologist that doesn't really do those retina cases?

I know I am a med student, but procedures are just a component of what make one a surgeon. I think there is a mindset unique to surgeons. They understand the importance of medicine and all that, but throughout the chaos of the day, the OR almost becomes a place of solace.

 

[Kizzel]

In that light, is interventional radiology or the like considered surgery? What if they are a medical ophthalmologist that doesn't really do those retina cases?

I know I am a med student, but procedures are just a component of what make one a surgeon. I think there is a mindset unique to surgeons. They understand the importance of medicine and all that, but throughout the chaos of the day, the OR almost becomes a place of solace.

A surgeon by definition only cuts when absolutely necessary as Castro said earlier. A medical ophthalmologist is not a surgeon by its definition. He/She will send off the retina case, or glaucoma case to a surgical specialist who can do it. Therefore the "medical" ophthalmologists are by definition not surgeons. I also do find solace in OR and fortunately my interest in the eye was too big to ignore. While I have a lot of clinic, I still do whatever I can to get in to the OR. The main issue is physicians and people in general have very little understanding in what ophthalmologists actually do. Once you go through the training, you can't deny what you do is surgery. It is not ego or pride, it is just plain fact.

As far as interventional radiology is concerned, I will not comment as I do not have direct exposure to what they do on a daily basis.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

1) he's not a pre med


2) you have used the word "irony" incorrectly. It is not ironic that we have a medical student using the word surgeon in his user name. Presumptuous or arrogant perhaps but not ironic (I blame Alanis Morrissette for the common misusage of the term).

Ah...but he was. At the time of the discussion. Not that it really matters. But your right, I misused "ironic," strictly speaking. It's "silly" that someone claiming to objectively argue for a more liberal application of "surgeon" happened to do so in their own name. At least, I thought so.

Ok.


3) no one was arguing that its not ok for surgical residents to call themselves surgeons. The whole thread was started because of non-surgeons calling themselves surgeons (ie, GI calling themselves gastrointestinal surgeons, hair transplanters, etc.). I don't have a problem with a surgical resident calling themselves a surgeon although surgical resident would be more accurate. But its not ironic.

4) a med student or pre-med using it on an internet BB as a user name is a whole different story than someone using it willingly as a lie to try and impress women/men to hopefully have sex with them. If aforementioned student were lying about being a surgeon on the BB, that would be a different story. So yeah...there is a difference, at least IMHO. I don't spend my time worrying about it anymore than I do the pre-med user names like "MD2B", "DOtoGo", "FutureSurgeon" (the last one is real and a riot. Read his posts (which are clearly written by his Ophtho father.)

Yeah..so I guess this was about 2 yrs ago, but this is what I was referring to:

When you hit on the hot chick in the bar, and you are a surgical resident somewhere in the middle of your training, are you a surgeon then?

I would argue for a yes : exaggerating your accomplishments when you are feeling horney is a tradition that goes back hundreds of thousands of years. And anyways, it is mostly true...a surgical resident in the middle of training has done lots of surgeon stuff, even if they can't handle big cases on their own.

Coming from the Pre-Med.

Interesting that you are the ONLY one who considers this scenario to be true. Everyone else who is actually a medical student, surgical resident or attending think you have to finish a surgical residency to call yourself a surgeon.

And then..

And WS, I agree : a resident surgeon shouldn't call himself a surgeon to a patient without making it clear that he is a resident. That is completely different than telling a drunk chick at a bar that you are a surgeon.

I fail to see how it is different. You are presupposing that the definition of a surgeon depends on the utility of the situation. I say if you define it as "A", it stays "A" regardless of the situation. You are not a surgeon when convenient and only a resident when you are legally obligated to be truthful.

Its ok to tell the drunk chick at a bar you are a surgeon, even when you aren't, because it might help you get laid? AFAIK, its lying and no different than telling the patient you are the surgeon who will be performing their surgery when you are a resident or medical student (which would be a lie as well).

Again, not a big deal. I'm just referencing here, not trying to make this an argument. My original post was in jest.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Of course Ophtho is a surgical specialty. Have you ever seen some of the complicated retina cases? These require a tremendous amount of dexterity and intricate movements that are rarely seen in other surgical specialties. Think about it, one wrong move the patient is blind. To say otherwise is just nonsensical.

I agree. It's those intricate skills I was talking about. But, do intricate skills make make you a surgeon? How well do those skills transfer to the rest of the body? And how does the training transfer? Dentists have to be extremely dextrous too...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But I think in some ways optho might be less "surgical" than other non-"surgical" specialties..like OB.

 

[Kizzel]

Based on that reasoning, then ENT Facial plastics is less surgical than OB as well since all the surgery they do is above the neck or an elective plastics person who only does breasts and tummy tucks is not a surgeon (no offense to anyone). What I believe makes you a surgeon is to understand that all medical treatments have been exhausted and the only next viable option is to cut. Like I said, if you actually practice Ophtho and go through the training, you really would never understand. I admit I never did until I actually went through it. So there really is not any use of comparing if it is less or more surgical. But using the example of dentist, you have to also compare OMFS. OMFS are considered surgeons without question, but there dentists counterparts are not. They can do a root canal of ore cavity filling, but when it comes to jaw reconstruction, it is beyond their scope. Same for optometrists, just because they remove a foreign body from the cornea it does not define them as a surgeon, but when the corneal is completely clouded, infected and debilitated and a cornea surgeon does a corneal transplant (which is the only option) it kind of speaks for itself.

Just a little info on ophtho for the rest of the world.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I agree. It's those intricate skills I was talking about. But, do intricate skills make make you a surgeon? How well do those skills transfer to the rest of the body? And how does the training transfer? Dentists have to be extremely dextrous too...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But I think in some ways optho might be less "surgical" than other non-"surgical" specialties..like OB.

Many dentists are DDSs (doctor of dental surgery).

 

[maxheadroom]

Many dentists are DDSs (doctor of dental surgery).

As I understand it, that's just an equivalent degree to a DMD. I don't think that a DDS has substantially different training than a DMD.

 

[DREDAY]

What about just saying "surgeons are graduates of any specialty that qualifies them to be members of FACS"?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

As I understand it, that's just an equivalent degree to a DMD. I don't think that a DDS has substantially different training than a DMD.

No difference whatsoever, just making a semantics point