What is the problem...can one define it? Let your voice be heard...

[radiaterMike]

You can look up U Iowa salaries online. As mentioned above these databases might only include one source of salary (i.e. university vs hospital or faculty vs clinical) and not include bonuses or deferred compensation.

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[fiji128]

It’s probably $240k plus some bonus that brings it to around $300k. Why they can’t clearly say this in their ads? Who knows.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

We can make assumptions on what the salary “must be” because we don’t like what’s posted.

Or… we can assume the offer listed by the university listing the offer, is the actual offer.

MED STUDENTS: RUN, DON’T WALK AWAY FROM RAD ONC!!!

 

[Baws]

You can look up U Iowa salaries online. As mentioned above these databases might only include one source of salary (i.e. university vs hospital or faculty vs clinical) and not include bonuses or deferred compensation.

Looks like their listed salaries fall within the radiation oncology norm (for assistant, associate, and professor); which means this salary is also real

The only thing that this job could offer is a good lifestyle I am thinking. Let me tell you a little story that rings true in many, many centers:

My satellite job used to be a private practice that brought in 7 figure take home pay. It was busy. It was sold to the University. After the sale, a lot of patients end up traveling to the main center to receive "better care" (thank 5 fraction breast/prostate for that). I have an excellent lifestyle but I still need to be at my job from 8 - 5; I discussed this with our clinic administrator who almost fired me over it. The chair had no interest in talking to me; he said he could fill my job overnight if I had issues with working here (I believe him). I make 25% of what the doctor who sold his practice made; I will never meet the technical bonuses in my contract, due to hypofractionation and patients traveling to the main center.

Do not judge me why I stay here. It is a very desirable city and my significant other cannot possibly move from here.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I will never meet the technical bonuses in my contract, due to hypofractionation and patients traveling to the main center.

If there's one thing I hear with regularity these days from younger rad oncs is they get bonuses spelled out in contracts but IRL getting the bonus is impossible. Makes sense. In the downward slide, bonuses will prob be the first things to go.

 

[grenz]

welcome to America!

in all seriousness, I have talked about this here ad nauseum - the corporatization of medicine is the root of all evil.

I agree with you on QOL differences, but numbers matter - and 239 is different than 325. same way 410 is diff than 325.

 

[deleted1111261]

I don’t think I’ll hit my bonus, but I’m also in a QOL job and that’s fine by me. Different world, now, that’s for sure.

 

[fiji128]

We can make assumptions on what the salary “must be” because we don’t like what’s posted.

Or… we can assume the offer listed by the university listing the offer, is the actual offer.

MED STUDENTS: RUN, DON’T WALK AWAY FROM RAD ONC!!!

$240k is about the same as what the local Walmart store manager brings in and 2x more then what a long haul trucker is making, not sure why anyone is complaining!

 

[Mandelin Rain]

$240k is about the same as what the local Walmart store manager brings in and 2x more then what a long haul trucker is making, not sure why anyone is complaining!

Why should we be paid more than pediatricians?
-Boomer rad onc with $25 million in the bank

 

[RadOncDoc21]

And half what your dept admin is making.

 

[RickyScott]

we are approaching what dosimetrists make. My hospital pays 130-150k and I think I can plan better than 99.9% of them and could be 3x as productive.

 

[OTN]

$240k is about the same as what the local Walmart store manager brings in and 2x more then what a long haul trucker is making, not sure why anyone is complaining!

This is correct. My sister-in-law is a manager of a Walmart in Illinois and makes ~$225k a year. She's 30.

The aforementioned story about an academic center using their predatory billing to buy up a private practice, then take all the profits for themselves while offering a new MD a terrible job, is precisely what is wrong with radonc today and why I would advise med students to avoid this specialty at all costs.

All of medicine got Boomed, but the Boomers Boomed radonc especially hard.

 

[RickyScott]

Why should we be paid more than pediatricians?
-Boomer rad onc with $25 million in the bank

estimate is too low. I think mike steinberg probably made more after selling all those practices. With 2 mill a year salary, wouldnt surprise me if Lou potters also has a higher net worth.

 

[communitydoc13]

Why should we be paid more than pediatricians?
-Boomer rad onc with $25 million in the bank

Always easier to be noble, generous and clear eyed from a position of strength.

I'm an advocate for single payor but momentarily wasn't when I realized my starting salary didn't make me rich (well, rich by my definition), that I had major debt to pay off and that there was going to be major downward pressure on my earnings going forward. I started to drift leftward again as my financial position became more secure.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The aforementioned story about an academic center using their predatory billing to buy up a private practice, then take all the profits for themselves while offering a new MD a terrible job, is precisely what is wrong with radonc today and why I would advise med students to avoid this specialty at all costs.

This is my point about "academic" centers pursuing expansion adventurism making life worse for both docs with a private practice preference AND docs with an academic preference.

There are few good options left for new rad onc physicians.

240k to work in Iowa. SMDH.

 

[communitydoc13]

240k to work in Iowa. SMDH.

240k to work in Iowa as a physician scientist with 80% research time and at the main campus is within reason. That is a cool job and it is fine to pay very cool jobs less.

240K to be stowed at a satellite? Well, no wonder med-stud interest is so low.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Hellpits will always hellpit.

 

[seper]

I hear your pain, but something does not make sense: how do you spend 8-5pm in a Dept and do not meet any bonus metric? Do they have 2 hour gaps between patients on a LINAC? (I've seen that before). And what is a "techincal bonus"? Should be all wRVU based

Looks like their listed salaries fall within the radiation oncology norm (for assistant, associate, and professor); which means this salary is also real

The only thing that this job could offer is a good lifestyle I am thinking. Let me tell you a little story that rings true in many, many centers:

My satellite job used to be a private practice that brought in 7 figure take home pay. It was busy. It was sold to the University. After the sale, a lot of patients end up traveling to the main center to receive "better care" (thank 5 fraction breast/prostate for that). I have an excellent lifestyle but I still need to be at my job from 8 - 5; I discussed this with our clinic administrator who almost fired me over it. The chair had no interest in talking to me; he said he could fill my job overnight if I had issues with working here (I believe him). I make 25% of what the doctor who sold his practice made; I will never meet the technical bonuses in my contract, due to hypofractionation and patients traveling to the main center.

Do not judge me why I stay here. It is a very desirable city and my significant other cannot possibly move from here.

 

[TheWallnerus]

estimate is too low. I think mike steinberg probably made more after selling all those practices. With 2 mill a year salary, wouldnt surprise me if Lou potters also has a higher net worth.

there are some incredible well off, 8-figure-ish old school 21c dudes

 

[TheWallnerus]

240k to work in Iowa as a physician scientist with 80% research time and at the main campus is within reason. That is a cool job and it is fine to pay very cool jobs less.

Just asking... why is this a cool job. Are physician scientists propelling rad onc forward. Have they advanced rad onc in the last 20y. It's not that cool if there have been zero practice changing things. Closest I can think right now is GARD, but maybe I'm being obtuse.

 

[OTN]

240k to work in Iowa as a physician scientist with 80% research time and at the main campus is within reason. That is a cool job and it is fine to pay very cool jobs less.

240K to be stowed at a satellite? Well, no wonder med-stud interest is so low.

Maybe some will find this as a cool job, but I think the number of physicians who would is low. Lots of us (myself included) would not live in that location, especially for that salary, no matter what the particulars of the job.

 

[RickyScott]

Maybe some will find this as a cool job, but I think the number of physicians who would is low. Lots of us (myself included) would not live in that location, especially for that salary, no matter what the particulars of the job.

Can’t imaging how you would break the news to your spouse: you will be staying home and baking me a lot of pies? Or if you are black: the nearest black family is 20 miles away?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Can’t imaging how you would break the news to your spouse: you will be staying home and baking me a lot of pies? Or if you are black: the nearest black family is 20 miles away?

There wont be any soul food, biryani, barbacoa in these places for these folks but at least you have A job. Be happy folks!

 

[deleted1111261]

There are a lot of Mexican workers in Iowa. I would bet the carnitas / birria / barbacoa scene is probably legit.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

There are a lot of Mexican workers in Iowa. I would bet the carnitas / birria / barbacoa scene is probably legit.

We will find out when these URMs who are enthusiastically being matched start getting pumped out to these places.

 

[radoncftw]

There are a lot of Mexican workers in Iowa. I would bet the carnitas / birria / barbacoa scene is probably legit.

iowa city is not that bad. its a college town after all and probably one of the more culturally diverse cities in that neck of the woods.

If you look up some assistant prof from their department on the iowa salary website, they look to be making reasonable salary per AAMC or even ARRO metrics for academics. The salaries on the iowa gov websites are >240

 

[RickyScott]

We will find out when these URMs who are enthusiastically being matched start getting pumped out to these places.

they very well could get preference at the major places, making the job market even tighter in cities

 

[communitydoc13]

Just asking... why is this a cool job. Are physician scientists propelling rad onc forward. Have they advanced rad onc in the last 20y. It's not that cool if there have been zero practice changing things. Closest I can think right now is GARD, but maybe I'm being obtuse.

Cool because it requires (or should) creativity. You are trying to change what others are doing or at least expand human understanding. In theory, this should require lots of reading and thinking, which I consider cool things to be paid for. In practice, maybe not that cool? But....when I was a scientist, 240K was really good money for a scientist with some autonomy.

 

[medgator]

we are approaching what dosimetrists make. My hospital pays 130-150k and I think I can plan better than 99.9% of them and could be 3x as productive.

My chief physicist is making $200k+ and deserves every penny.

**** Hallahan and the other vermin of rad onc academia who created this problem

 

[TheWallnerus]

My chief physicist is making $200k+ and deserves every penny.

**** Hallahan and the other vermin of rad onc academia who created this problem

I wonder what med phys pay has done last 20y. I was paying the top ones 225-275K 15y ago. In my very first job, the chief physicist made more than me.

 

[RSAOaky]

iowa city is not that bad. its a college town after all and probably one of the more culturally diverse cities in that neck of the woods.

If you look up some assistant prof from their department on the iowa salary website, they look to be making reasonable salary per AAMC or even ARRO metrics for academics. The salaries on the iowa gov websites are >240

I'm sure Iowa City is not that bad but it's a tier 3+ city.

It's really hard to judge true salary from these salary websites for public universities. Often times they only list the base salary paid by the institution. Sometimes that salary is subsidized by a private affiliate of the university and it never includes any form of bonus or retirement match which is often significant.

 

[jondunn]

What about lengua

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I'm sure Iowa City is not that bad but it's a tier 3+ city.

It's really hard to judge true salary from these salary websites for public universities. Often times they only list the base salary paid by the institution. Sometimes that salary is subsidized by a private affiliate of the university and it never includes any form of bonus or retirement match which is often significant.

What was posted was a solicitation for applicants. This is what they are offering during their recruitment for the position.

 

[medgator]

What was posted was a solicitation for applicants. This is what they are offering during their recruitment for the position.

The mental gymnastics going on to defend this job post in an undesirable location is astounding. Maybe it speaks more to those individuals than the posting itself

 

[RickyScott]

The mental gymnastics going on to defend this job post in an undesirable location is astounding. Maybe it speaks more to those individuals than the posting itself

I know someone who went to Iowa 10 yrs ago and remember that the pay was horrible

 

[communitydoc13]

The mental gymnastics going on to defend this job post in an undesirable location is astounding. Maybe it speaks more to those individuals than the posting itself

You're right. Just thinking about @Chartreuse Wombat post above.

175K in early 1990s worth about 385k now. Undoubtedly every poorly paying job offer is an indicator of our value and a reference point for everyone else who is offering a job.

I have been taking a pay cut relative to inflation for years. I'm guessing nearly everyone on this board is in the same boat.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

You're right. Just thinking about @Chartreuse Wombat post above.

175K in early 1990s worth about 385k now. Undoubtedly every poorly paying job offer is an indicator of our value and a reference point for everyone else who is offering a job.

I have been taking a pay cut relative to inflation for years. I'm guessing nearly everyone on this board is in the same boat.

I've been taking pay cuts on absolute terms. Relative to inflation? fuggetaboutit.

 

[medgator]

I've been taking pay cuts on absolute terms. Relative to inflation? fuggetaboutit.

Hypo-fractionation is a pay cut for everyone unless you're salaried or lucky enough to have negotiated bundled payments with all of your payors.

 

[evilbooyaa]

estimate is too low. I think mike steinberg probably made more after selling all those practices. With 2 mill a year salary, wouldnt surprise me if Lou potters also has a higher net worth.

That number is 'low' because it references Ralph from U of Chicago who posted that line. Who is prob still worth that much (if not more) but definitely worth less than the Steinbergs of the world.

 

[Baws]

That number is 'low' because it references Ralph from U of Chicago who posted that line. Who is prob still worth that much (if not more) but definitely worth less than the Steinbergs of the world.

Steinberg is especially well off. But do the math for any boomer chair. 20 years of a 7 figure salary invested in the stock market over the past 20 years.

Feeling poor yet? Don't, because the majority of chairs also have sold companies, sold patents that we use daily, as well as consult to big firms (see hallahan's portfolio as an example)

Boomers have sold the future of medicine in exchange for their 401Ks looking pretty. Destroying this specialty by expanding residencies and creating $240,000 one-fraction technicians is light work for them.

 

[jondunn]

The mental gymnastics going on to defend this job post in an undesirable location is astounding. Maybe it speaks more to those individuals than the posting itself

Look - some people actually care about the facts and some people only look for narratives. I have literally zero vested interest here. I am not a chair. I'm a private practice doc and our group is likely not hiring for 5-8 years, based on the fact that I was the last hire and our older partners aren't retiring soon.

I shouldnt have to explain the inanities of job postings, but here we are. I don't know what website this is posted on but if you haven't read these job postings before, you should know that it's often a 5th party person who is not exactly attuned to every specific.

For example, UNC (posting on ASTRO) has routinely posted jobs with a 220k listed, going back to at least 2015, but I know for a fact that wasn't the real salary.

The fact that some people refuse to admit this is a likely possibility boggles my mind. Do you care about considering possiblities or do you just care about your narrative?

For example - @RSAOaky posted he works in an academic satellite making 650, and no one seemed to care or even acknowledge this. Granted, he works hard for that money, but still. That is a data point too.

 

[RSAOaky]

What was posted was a solicitation for applicants. This is what they are offering during their recruitment for the position.

The mental gymnastics going on to defend this job post in an undesirable location is astounding. Maybe it speaks more to those individuals than the posting itself

You got me @medgator. I'm a University of Iowa mole sent to infiltrate SDN, defend their honor, and gaslight everyone about their low starting salary.

I was responding directly to the quoted poster's comment about the Iowa government website, and government salary websites in general. That was nothing related to the job posting itself and I didn't say anything about the job itself being a competitive or appropriate salary (it's not). The one academic job I applied to was in Texas and I know for a fact that there was no bonus information listed on the Texas public salary websites.

 

[RSAOaky]

FYI, the salaries for 5 of the 6 assistant professors for 2021 are as follows. The 6th does not have 2021 info so was likely a more recent hire:
336,240
295,154
316,875
331,500
330,062

This is publicly available information. Knowing that university systems typically have pretty standard pay scales, I find it pretty unlikely that the 7th assistant professor is going to be taking a 30% pay cut but maybe I'm naive and the sky is in fact falling.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

FYI, the salaries for 5 of the 6 assistant professors for 2021 are as follows. The 6th does not have 2021 info so was likely a more recent hire:
336,240
295,154
316,875
331,500
330,062

This is publicly available information. Knowing that university systems typically have pretty standard pay scales, I find it pretty unlikely that the 7th assistant professor is going to be taking a 30% pay cut but maybe I'm naive and the sky is in fact falling.

They literally state the salary in the ad. It's $239,000. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

Maybe all these Iowa docs have the ability to make a 50k bonus for productivity/teaching metrics. They probably do. That's speculation. We know the base pay for the posted position is 239k with an apparent upside of 330k (based on the above information) if you get board certified, become an assistant professor, and hang around Iowa for several years.

Obviously, all that sucks.

 

[TheWallnerus]

Somebody just needs to f****** call Iowa

 

[jondunn]

They literally state the salary in the ad. It's $239,000. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

Maybe all these Iowa docs have the ability to make a 50k bonus for productivity/teaching metrics. They probably do. That's speculation. We know the base pay for the posted position is 239k with an apparent upside of 330k (based on the above information) if you get board certified, become an assistant professor, and hang around Iowa for several years.

Obviously, all that sucks.

I think I’m taking crazy pills with you repeatedly posting the same thing over and over again when it’s been explained to you.

 

[deleted1111261]

Somebody just needs to f****** call Iowa

Why would they post a LOWER salary than reality in a not desirable location? Odd recruiting strategy.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Why would they post a LOWER salary than reality in a not desirable location? Odd recruiting strategy.

What’s the opposite of catfishing?

 

[medgator]

I think I’m taking crazy pills with you repeatedly posting the same thing over and over again when it’s been explained to you.

Why would they post a LOWER salary than reality in a not desirable location? Odd recruiting strategy.

What’s the opposite of catfishing?

JD... Think this through. Iowa isn't exactly the hottest place to recruit rad onc. An error that obvious should not have been posted

 

[jondunn]

Why would they post a LOWER salary than reality in a not desirable location? Odd recruiting strategy.

It happens! Again keep in mind who is posting this, keep in mind government rules about how salary is reported.

UNC does the exact same thing