What's the deal with Liberty?

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FutureDrB

FutureDrB

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Just about every discussion I've seen involving Liberty pretty much boils down to "don't go there."
What's the 411 on that?
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A medical school found on foundation of Christianity.

Personally, while I am an agnostic atheist, I have no problem with religion or religious people. However, I have problem against religious ideas affecting policies and regulations that discrimination against those who do not follow their religion (Little off tangent).

Therefore, I do not want to go to a school or work at a place that has an authority over me and won't allow me to question their policies and decisions. While I have no idea if liberty does that, their foundation is based on a religion. I want to be free to voice my thoughts and opinions. I'm sure people who go there are just as smart, nice, intelligent, wise, and end up become great doctors, but it isn't something for me. I cannot go through 4 years of studying/living lying and hiding my nonreligious thoughts (Not that they will accept me...). Let religious people go there. Let like minded people learn together. Let nonreligious people go there. Let them learn that religious organizations aren't bad. However, it's not for me. They don't tell you to pray for sick people to get better without medical treatment right? No vaccination?

I think quite a few people have similar ideas. Am I right or am I right?

If there is anyone who want to have conversation with me about religion and how wrong I am to be an agnostic atheist, feel free to PE me. I enjoy these debates. But remember, you'll be batting against a Cy Young winner (baseball reference).
 
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It's not that it's "Christian." It's that it's based on a brand of hateful "fundamentalist" Christianity. Liberty is, literally, Jerry Falwell University. He's the founder.
 
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@iWillOneDay I too love a good debate, but I feel we would likely agree on most things, so there probably wouldn't be much debating.

Does anyone know if on their secondaries they ask any "religious" questions. I know when I was looking at graduate schools years ago, I looked at some which had additional applications with questions like "How has your religion impacted your studies? etc."

I'd be curious to know if they incorporate any religious aspects into the application process and/or education.
 
jonnythan said:
It's not that it's "Christian." It's that it's based on a brand of hateful "fundamentalist" Christianity. Liberty is, literally, Jerry Falwell University. He's the founder.
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Is he really??? Oh wow, I did not know that. Okay, thread closed. :laugh:
 
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jonnythan said:
It's not that it's "Christian." It's that it's based on a brand of hateful "fundamentalist" Christianity. Liberty is, literally, Jerry Falwell University. He's the founder.
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To OP you can find the various reasons why in a quick search as it has already been discussed at great length. Short answer is a school with fringe far right beliefs should have no business having a medical school. I have no problem with religious schools in general. The Jesuit schools=good, liberty= just no... :)
 
@mik30102 for the love of God (pun intended), please don't associate "the right" with religion. We're not turning this into a political debate, but that just irks me to no end when people say things like "the Christian conservatives", etc. I'm about as far right as they come, and also about as anti-organized religion as they come.
 
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FutureDrB said:
@mik30102 for the love of God (pun intended), please don't associate "the right" with religion. We're not turning this into a political debate, but that just irks me to no end when people say things like "the Christian conservatives", etc. I'm about as far right as they come, and also about as anti-organized religion as they come.
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Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, mitt Romney, bill orielly....
 
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jonnythan said:
It's not that it's "Christian." It's that it's based on a brand of hateful "fundamentalist" Christianity. Liberty is, literally, Jerry Falwell University. He's the founder.
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I was hesitant to use that word "fundamentalist" because I didn't know in that detail but there you go.
 
FutureDrB said:
@mik30102 for the love of God (pun intended), please don't associate "the right" with religion. We're not turning this into a political debate, but that just irks me to no end when people say things like "the Christian conservatives", etc. I'm about as far right as they come, and also about as anti-organized religion as they come.
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Well then you sound like a libertarian then. For better or worse many religious beliefs are stances of right wing political groups in this country, and due to this I think it is a appropriate label for libertie's views :p
 
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FutureDrB said:
@mik30102 for the love of God (pun intended), please don't associate "the right" with religion. We're not turning this into a political debate, but that just irks me to no end when people say things like "the Christian conservatives", etc. I'm about as far right as they come, and also about as anti-organized religion as they come.
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Sorry guy but a lot of people base their poltical opinions with their religion so this association can be made.

For example people use religion to discriminate against gay people (marriage).

People use religion to take women's right to choose (abortion)

I would bet my left n*t that the people at liberty are FAR right.

Also they are hypocrites because while they discriminate against gay people yet they don't seem to care when people eat shellfish (also called an abomination in the bible)

Or they try and force people to have children yet they are against social programs to help these children once they are born. Nor do they seem to care about the lives of our soldiers. They care about the lives of the unborn more then the lives of actual living people.

To sum it up don't go to liberty unless its your only option. Not only is their fundamentalist religion a huge problem but their was also their admissions scandle where they withdrew acceptances from people they accepted. I will link you to the thread were everyone on sdn ripped apart liberty. Even the adcom goro doesn't recommend liberty.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lucom-inaugural-class-stats.1076737/page-6
 
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:beat:

Nothing wrong with the school. People are just prejudiced against them because of their mission.
 
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verynice said:
:beat:

Nothing wrong with the school. People are just prejudiced against them because of their mission.
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The official position of the university is that the earth is a few thousand years old.

This is a medical school. Whose official dogma is young-earth creationism. They have a museum on campus that has dinosaur fossils labeled as 3000 years old.
 
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emagavin said:
And they are going to implement young-earth topics into their medical curriculum? That's strange.

I understand it being a course offered. And it would make sense to hire a Ph.D. who is able to work with it. Perhaps not necessarily believe it but be okay with it in some sense.
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Dunno. Don't care. Their BS undergrad curriculum and the core beliefs of the institution itself are more than enough to recommend against it. I still can't believe it's been allowed to begin with.
 
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Having grown up in a southern baptist church, I can assure you that the majority of the members of such organizations are anti intellectual, irrational, highly intolerant and bigoted to the point of delusion. I wouldn't recommend a school such as Liberty, even if the medical school doesn't participate in the behavior supported by the rest of the university; I don't want to support or participate in such an organization, at the professional level.
 
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jonnythan said:
Dunno. Don't care. Their BS undergrad curriculum and the core beliefs of the institution itself are more than enough to recommend against it. I still can't believe it's been allowed to begin with.
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I see your view point that religious beliefs should not be implemented into an educational curriculum, but it is a Christian university.

I'd go to a medical school even if the core was around Islam. As long as I receive the proper education to do well on boards.

I respect your beliefs good sir.

On this note, I've hear that LU is very stringent on their rules? Is that true?
 
emagavin said:
And they are going to implement young-earth topics into their medical curriculum? That's strange.

I understand it being a course offered. And it would make sense to hire a Ph.D. who is able to work with it. Perhaps not necessarily believe it but be okay with it in some sense.
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Any scientist defending topics that can be scientifically disproven isn't a scientist. Liberty is honestly a joke
 
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emagavin said:
I see your view point that religious beliefs should not be implemented into an educational curriculum, but it is a Christian university.

I'd go to a medical school even if the core was around Islam. As long as I receive the proper education to do well on boards.

I respect your beliefs good sir.
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I have serious trouble considering that hateful, spiteful BS "Christian." Loma Linda is Christian. Jerry Falwell U is the bastardized, mutated, malformed American offspring of actual Christianity. I'd be 100% OK with the existence of an Islam medical school in the US just as I'm OK with a Christian one, or a Jewish one, or whatever. But not an anti-science, bigoted, hateful one of any "religion."
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
Any scientist defending topics that can be scientifically disproven isn't a scientist. Liberty is honestly a joke
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So any scientist who doesn't believe in evolution or the big bang should be immediately discredited? That's a bit over reaching, but to each his own.
 
emagavin said:
So any scientist who doesn't believe in evolution or the big bang should be immediately discredited? That's a bit over reaching, but too each his own.
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Probably, but this isn't simply questioning evolution or the big bang. This is saying that the earth is 3000 years old. This is next-level Conservative Christian BS.
 
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emagavin said:
So any scientist who doesn't believe in evolution or the big bang should be immediately discredited? That's a bit over reaching, but to each his own.
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Never said that. If you believe in an alternative routed in the scientific method that is cool. Maybe you are a string theory guy and that's cool. But if you believe the earth is 3000 years old when you can carbon date things way past that you aren't a scientist you're an idiot
 
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Its a POS school, sorry if I sound bitter but religion almost destroyed my life.
 
emagavin said:
So any scientist who doesn't believe in evolution or the big bang should be immediately discredited? That's a bit over reaching, but to each his own.
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Both theories have more than substantial amounts of evidence to their legitimacy. Someone who doesn't believe (such a strange idea. What you believe changes nothing) in evolution as the origin of the species and the "Big Bang" as the most likely source of all matter and energy in our universe, whilst having full knowledge of all the information, is doing so for political and social/religious reasons or to be a troll. One would have to practice double think in order to not put belief in such things as evolution. A scientist cannot practice double think; it's totally opposed to the very idea of science.
 
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jonnythan said:
Probably, but this isn't simply questioning evolution or the big bang. This is saying that the earth is 3000 years old. This is next-level Conservative Christian BS.
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How do they handle ancient civilization's artifacts, like the Egyptians? Their Early Dynastic period is estimated to have started at around 3050 BC, and the Old Kingdom is estimated to have started around 2686 BC, which up to the present time would be 5000 years. :prof:
 
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J Senpai said:
Both theories have more than substantial amounts of evidence to their legitimacy. Someone who doesn't believe (such a strange idea. What you believe changes nothing) in evolution as the origin of the species and the "Big Bang" as the most likely source of all matter and energy in our universe, whilst having full knowledge of all the information, is doing so for political and social/religious reasons or to be a troll. One would have to practice double think in order to not put belief in such things as evolution. A scientist cannot practice double think; it's totally opposed to the very idea of science.
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DoctorSynthesis said:
Never said that. If you believe in an alternative routed in the scientific method that is cool. Maybe you are a string theory guy and that's cool. But if you believe the earth is 3000 years old when you can carbon date things way past that you aren't a scientist you're an idiot
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Even as someone of the Christian faith, I stay away from these topics because they will always be a battle. And at the end of the day the goal of my faith is not to try and disprove anyone. You believe what you believe, I respect it either way.

Edit: but yes, if one is to become a part of modern medicine, hard evidence wins all.
 
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Conflagration said:
How do they handle ancient civilization's artifacts, like the Egyptians? Their Early Dynastic period is estimated to have started at around 3050 BC, and the Old Kingdom is estimated to have started around 2686 BC, which up to the present time would be 5000 years. :prof:
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There are Great Basin Bristlecone Pines that are over 5000 years old. The old earth stance, even being hammered into me from a young age, still confounds me. I cannot tolerate the perpetuation of scientific illiteracy and anti intellectualism.
 
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emagavin said:
Even as someone of the Christian faith, I stay away from these topics because they will always be a battle. And at the end of the day the goal of my faith is not to try and disprove anyone. You believe what you believe, I respect it either way.

Edit: but yes, if one is to become a part of modern medicine, hard evidence wins all.
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You can't disprove anyone. You won't debate it because you can't.

Bottom line is if I found at a doctor of mine went to liberty I wouldn't go to that doctor. I would be worried that the doctor's judgment might be clouded by religion. If they went to a school not so fundamentalist like liberty I would be OK with it. I would be OK with going to a loma Lida doctor for example.
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
You can't disprove anyone. You won't debate it because you can't.

Bottom line is if I found at a doctor of mine went to liberty I wouldn't go to that doctor. I would be worried that the doctor's judgment might be clouded by religion. If they went to a school not so fundamentalist like liberty I would be OK with it. I would be OK with going to a loma Lida doctor for example.
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Eh, poor choice of words on my part. Of course I can't "disprove" science with a book like the Bible. I understand that.

I have doubts that a graduate from LUCOM would really let their religious beliefs cloud their clinical knowledge, but I understand your worries because of the fact that the school seems so set on making their students act a certain/behave a certain way. Unless this school was stating "resort to prayer" in substitute for surgery, I'd let that doctor do her/his job. Also, I feel that LLU has a stronger implementation of their religious beliefs within their medical education (requiring students to complete courses in religion), but they still put out some incredible docs (E.g. Our GI chair Dr. Sandborn is an LLU grad). I get your argument though!

The description of LUCOM's curriculum for medical education has no longitudinal requirements for religious studies. Perhaps they are hiding something.

Edit: Hopefully I'm not ruffling feathers here and pissing people off because I am sharing my side.
 
emagavin said:
Eh, poor choice of words on my part. Of course I can't "disprove" science with a book like the Bible. I understand that.

I have doubts that a graduate from LUCOM would really let their religious beliefs cloud their clinical knowledge, but I understand your worries because of the fact that the school seems so set on making their students act a certain/behave a certain way. Unless this school was stating "resort to prayer" in substitute for surgery, I'd let that doctor do her/his job. Also, I feel that LLU has a stronger implementation of their religious beliefs within their medical education (requiring students to complete courses in religion), but they still put out some incredible docs (E.g. Our GI chair Dr. Sandborn is an LLU grad). I get your argument though!

The description of LUCOM's curriculum for medical education has no longitudinal requirements for religious studies. Perhaps they are hiding something.

Edit: Hopefully I'm not ruffling feathers here and pissing people off because I am sharing my side.
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I'm sure many good doctors can come from lucom. I believe your most important training is from residency which wont be from lucom. However why would I risk going to a doctor from lucom when I can go to a doctor where I don't have those worries. Fundamentalists in any religion are scary. If its your every day christain or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or whatever that believe in doing good and whatever I would of course trust them. I have had professors who believe god created the big bang and I'm OK with that. The fundamentalists like liberty are the ones I don't trust. Who knows what crazy things they believe.

Also I agree. The bible can't disprove science but science can disprove the bible.

As a side note im unsure about religion class requirements but I'm sure religion will be an integral part of your education there.
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
I'm sure many good doctors can come from lucom. I believe your most important training is from residency which wont be from lucom. However why would I risk going to a doctor from lucom when I can go to a doctor where I don't have those worries. Fundamentalists in any religion are scary. If its your every day christain or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or whatever that believe in doing good and whatever I would of course trust them. I have had professors who believe god created the big bang and I'm OK with that. The fundamentalists like liberty are the ones I don't trust. Who knows what crazy things they believe.

Also I agree. The bible can't disprove science but science can disprove the bible.

As a side note im unsure about religion class requirements but I'm sure religion will be an integral part of your education there.
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Good talk, good talk. :)
 
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Man, I step away for a few hours and I miss all this. It's going to take a while to clean up all the food off of the cafeteria walls.

But seriously, thanks to everyone who provided links and info on Liberty. Will certainly be marking it off the application list.
 
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What's the deal with LU? They're a med school. They're a christian school. I mean, talk about identity crisis; it's like they're 15 year old girls. Christian schools and little girls? I'm not touching that one!

seinfeld_jerry_240x260_0528200415241.jpg
 
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NontradCA said:
What's the deal with LU? They're a med school. They're a christian school. I mean, talk about identity crisis; it's like they're 15 year old girls. Christian schools and little girls? I'm not touching that one!

seinfeld_jerry_240x260_0528200415241.jpg
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Seinfeld!!!! Hillarous though
 
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emagavin said:
Even as someone of the Christian faith, I stay away from these topics because they will always be a battle. And at the end of the day the goal of my faith is not to try and disprove anyone. You believe what you believe, I respect it either way.

Edit: but yes, if one is to become a part of modern medicine, hard evidence wins all.
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That is just you picking good things about religion and throwing out bad ones. You simply take good things and merge it with the benefits that science gives.
You have no evidence to believe in a god/God besides the bible or personal experience. You will probably laugh at or mock though who say they have been abducted by aliens (these people are alive and normally developed (at least that's what we think...) - Matt Dillahunty). I don't want myself or my family members in the hands of a physician who relies on faith and not on his knowledge/skill to treat patients (not saying religious physicians do that, but it's just an exaggeration)

The goal of an atheist is, or at least should be, to help other think critically, logically, skeptically, and educate others (Bill Nye). We aren't trying to disprove you or anyone else either. By the way, the burden of proof is on the religious, not the nonreligious (Matt Dillahunty). Given the evidence, it is highly likely (Lawrence Krauss) that big bang and evolution (not likely, a fact - Richard Dawkins) occurred. And dinosaurs did not live with humans (or our distant cousins).
Yes, there are good things about religion, such as meditation (Sam Harris) or the social environment. But we don't need religion to live in a moral, ethical society. As Richard Dawkins say, "Religion poisons everything."
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
Until then, I have no reason to believe in a god/God.
Yes, string theory is odd and many physicist disagree with it or just disregard it (Lawrence Krauss), but that doesn't mean it's impossible. That's why physicists, like Michio Kaku, are working on it. Even if it ends up being completely wrong, it would have been worth it finding out that it was wrong. The big bang can be wrong, but for now, it is the best proposed theory to explain the beginning and expansion of the universe. Even Lawrence Krauss thought Hadron particle (God particle) wouldn't exist until it was proven that it does with experiment (Hadron collider, which would have been cool if they finished the Texas one but them politicians...)

I know this is off tangent but I just wanted to be a prick, show off, and pretentious.

If we stop at an obstacle thinking god/God has made/created it, we wouldn't have any advancement. You think we would have cell phones and laptops if people thought fire was created by gods/god/God?

Not trying to make you an atheist. Not ridiculing you/religious people either. At the end, I don't care what you believe in. But make sure when you come across those people who believe/state ridiculous claims and try to pass legislation that will discriminate people of other faith/nonfaith you knock some senses into them.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” - Christopher Hitchens
Teaching creationism to kids is child abuse - Lawrence Krauss
 
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emagavin said:
I see your view point that religious beliefs should not be implemented into an educational curriculum, but it is a Christian university.

I'd go to a medical school even if the core was around Islam. As long as I receive the proper education to do well on boards.

I respect your beliefs good sir.

On this note, I've hear that LU is very stringent on their rules? Is that true?
Click to expand...

That would be really offensive if I was a Muslim. What is wrong with Islamic teaching (besides suicide bombing thing that guarantees 77 virgins after death, which I don't even know if it is explicitly stated in quran.....) Christianity is just as immoral, if not more.
 
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iWillOneDay said:
That would be really offensive if I was a Muslim. What is wrong with Islamic teaching (besides suicide bombing thing that guarantees 77 virgins after death, which I don't even know if it is explicitly stated in quran.....) Christianity is just as immoral, if not more.
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It's statements like that that make it hard to believe that you aren't "ridiculing" me from your previous post. Not going to waste my energy on this one unfortunately, sorry.
 
emagavin said:
It's statements like that that make it hard to believe that you aren't "ridiculing" me from your previous post. Not going to waste my energy on this one unfortunately, sorry.
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Just stating the obvious fact... slavery... women being inferior to men... killing of brother... killing of son.... wiping the entire world with flood.... punishing everyone and future generations for what people in the past have done....
I'm not gonna wait more time either. I need to sleep.
 
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Conflagration said:
How do they handle ancient civilization's artifacts, like the Egyptians? Their Early Dynastic period is estimated to have started at around 3050 BC, and the Old Kingdom is estimated to have started around 2686 BC, which up to the present time would be 5000 years. :prof:
Click to expand...

J Senpai said:
There are Great Basin Bristlecone Pines that are over 5000 years old. The old earth stance, even being hammered into me from a young age, still confounds me. I cannot tolerate the perpetuation of scientific illiteracy and anti intellectualism.
Click to expand...

The predominant young Earth Creationist position is that Earth is approximately 6000 years old, not 3000 as was mentioned by a different poster above.

Obviously, there are still many conflicts with historical timelines of human tribes that are thought to have existed 10k+ years before then, not to mention the scientific timeline including early apes, dinosaurs etc., but that's a different topic all together.
 
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