When do we submit LORs?

[Medical Whore]

I thought it was part of the AMCAS application process we submit, but I don't see a section for it anywhere. Am I forgetting to click on something? help!

Also, I have three LORs ready to go. Do most medical schools ask for 2, 3, 4, or more LORs?

Thanks for the help!

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[LVDoc]

You're supposed to submit the LOR's at the time that you have completed and sent in the secondaries. It's not part of the AMCAS application.

Most schools ask for only 3 LOR's; 2-science, 1-nonscience is pretty standard. If they don't have an exclusive rule, you could submit up to 5 to get a bit more diversity in (ie. one from a doctor, one from a PI, etc.).

 

[Medical Whore]

Is a letter from a physician that you have shadowed considered a non-science LOR?

You're supposed to submit the LOR's at the time that you have completed and sent in the secondaries. It's not part of the AMCAS application.

Most schools ask for only 3 LOR's; 2-science, 1-nonscience is pretty standard. If they don't have an exclusive rule, you could submit up to 5 to get a bit more diversity in (ie. one from a doctor, one from a PI, etc.).

 

[LVDoc]

By science and non-science LOR's, I meant those written by professors whose courses you have taken. A letter from a physician would not count for a "non-science LOR." It will count for an extra one though, in the case that you decide to submit more than the standard three.

 

[myodana]

LOR = ASAP.
seriously. get those school addresses to your committee so they can send out the letter right away. the sooner it gets there, the sooner you're complete.

 

[Sanctuary]

Is a letter from a physician that you have shadowed considered a non-science LOR?

That is a good support letter. A medical school app. LOR is one (usually 3+ actually) from professors that you've had. Generally speaking, at least 2 need to be from science professors. If your school has a premed advising committee, most schools REQUIRE you use this 'composite' letter writing service instead of submitted 3+ individual letters. Does this help?

 

[tigress]

Actually this might be a good place for my question (sorry for sort of hijacking the thread). When should i give my pre-med committee the list of schools to send the letters to? Should it be as soon as I submit AMCAS? I remember reading in some thread a while ago that some schools won't accept letters before they've sent out their secondaries, or before they've received yours, or something like that. But not all schools will send out secondaries at the same time, and I can only ask my committee to send out the letters once. So do I do this after submitting, or wait until I get secondaries? I don't like the idea of waiting...

 

[Law2Doc]

Actually this might be a good place for my question (sorry for sort of hijacking the thread). When should i give my pre-med committee the list of schools to send the letters to? Should it be as soon as I submit AMCAS? I remember reading in some thread a while ago that some schools won't accept letters before they've sent out their secondaries, or before they've received yours, or something like that. But not all schools will send out secondaries at the same time, and I can only ask my committee to send out the letters once. So do I do this after submitting, or wait until I get secondaries? I don't like the idea of waiting...

Once the AMCAS folks validate your primary application (shortly after you submit the transcripts), they let the schools you listed know you applied. At that point it's probably safe to have LORs sent in as the schools will have created a file for you. In most people's experience, the LORs are the slowest moving piece in the process so regardless of when you ask them to be sent, you should expect to be needing to play chase and follow-up.

 

[tigress]

Once the AMCAS folks validate your primary application (shortly after you submit the transcripts), they let the schools you listed know you applied. At that point it's probably safe to have LORs sent in as the schools will have created a file for you. In most people's experience, the LORs are the slowest moving piece in the process so regardless of when you ask them to be sent, you should expect to be needing to play chase and follow-up.

Thanks. My LORs are all with the pre-med committee at this point and I think they've either written my composite or they're doing it this week or next (haven't checked since week before last). Anyway, they should be ready to go by the time I submit AMCAS mid-June. If the schools have a file for me then I guess it will be okay.

 

[Jezzielin]

Does this seem balanced?


LORs:
1.) Pre-med advisor/Physiology professor (might count towards committee)
2.) Medical Ethics assistant professor I LOVE HIM
3.) Physician (DO)
4.)Volunteer Coordinator
5.) Boss (if needed)

I hope that is good enough...

 

[WayChanger]

Does this seem balanced?


LORs:
1.) Pre-med advisor/Physiology professor (might count towards committee)
2.) Medical Ethics assistant professor I LOVE HIM
3.) Physician (DO)
4.)Volunteer Coordinator
5.) Boss (if needed)

I hope that is good enough...

It varies with a lot of places, but the general rule is THREE letters from professors (2 science, 1 non-science) and then up to 2 additional letters. So your letters 3-5 look good for the "additional" letters, but I would advise you to get a letter from a humanities (non-science) professor. Some med schools are pretty specific on wanting that.

 

[Jezzielin]

It varies with a lot of places, but the general rule is THREE letters from professors (2 science, 1 non-science) and then up to 2 additional letters. So your letters 3-5 look good for the "additional" letters, but I would advise you to get a letter from a humanities (non-science) professor. Some med schools are pretty specific on wanting that.

My #2 is a Philosophy professor. That's my non-science one then I guess!

 

[jmugele]

Also, where do we submit our LORs to? Does it just go to the admissions office of each school, or do they tell us a special place/person?

 

[efex101]

This is *why* you should wait until you receive a secondary for the schools that you applied to on AMCAS. They will send you ALL the relevant information about how MANY LOR's to send and WHERE to send it. Most will require *three* LOR's that are to be from two science and one non-science PROFESSORS. Some schools will "allow" for extra LOR's but some do not..so having extra is good but do not assume that ALL schools will welcome them. This will be stated again on the secondaries.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is *why* you should wait until you receive a secondary for the schools that you applied to on AMCAS. They will send you ALL the relevant information about how MANY LOR's to send and WHERE to send it. Most will require *three* LOR's that are to be from two science and one non-science PROFESSORS. Some schools will "allow" for extra LOR's but some do not..so having extra is good but do not assume that ALL schools will welcome them. This will be stated again on the secondaries.

I think this post assumes you are having LORs forwarded directly and that your school premed office isn't doing a composite or committee letter/packet. A good premed office will often already know where the med schools want them sent...

 

[jmugele]

This is *why* you should wait until you receive a secondary for the schools that you applied to on AMCAS. They will send you ALL the relevant information about how MANY LOR's to send and WHERE to send it. Most will require *three* LOR's that are to be from two science and one non-science PROFESSORS. Some schools will "allow" for extra LOR's but some do not..so having extra is good but do not assume that ALL schools will welcome them. This will be stated again on the secondaries.

Thanks, Efex. You're the bomb. Or da' bomb. Or whatever it is the kids are saying these days.

 

[efex101]

This is "not" necessarily true..sure if the are used to sending LOR's to the same schools (most pre-meds apply to X or Y schools from that undergrad) then yes the pre-med office "will" know how many and where to send. I OTOH applied to schools that most pre-meds in my undergrad never had applied to so I waited to make sure that a) the schools offered me a secondary and b) the address and who to send it to. Also, my school did have a pre-med committee letter then the two LOR from science and one from non-science may not apply...because each committee does things differently..from my memory of the process most medical schools secondaries were online adn you could select the option if you were sending committee letter OR sending two science and one non-science..

 

[Zephyrus]

To be safe..

3 letters from professors you've gotten a grade from, at least 2 of which represent the natural sciences (if you take an independent study in natural science for formal credit, that can count as one). 1 letter from a non-science professor is generally advisable to show "breadth," i would go for a class that emphasizes writing and communication ability. a fourth letter which mirrors the "theme" of your application seals the deal. no TAs, but grad students or postdoc teaching fellows are acceptable. additional letters from MDs or others with whom you've had a significant extracurricular activity are always good, but it's important to not drown the adcoms in verbiage. for example, i could probably get 10 strong letters, but i don't plan on sending in more than 6-7 (including a composite evaluation). after that, adcoms start to get annoyed (some schools have even set a limit on the number of letters that can be included in applicant's file, such as harvard at 6 and columbia at 7). use judgment and try to visualize what each recommender will say about you, and then minimize overlap. as stated in KnightInBlue's guide, save a letter or two to be sent directly to schools IN ADDITION to the composite stack because it enriches your file. ignore this point if your school doesn't use a pre-medical committee.

a good tactic is to find people who span roles in your undergraduate career. for example, one of my letters is from a science lecture professor, but he is also the director of the NSF summer program to which I was acccepted, the director of my major program, and my major advisor. another science prof i had for independent study in cell biology, but he is also my PI for the aforementioned summer program. my two other recommenders will be professors with whom I have participated in a significant activity outside of the classroom. don't just get someone who can comment on you in a narrow way and not say anything to distinguish you as an applicant. this is why I frown upon letters from physicians you've shadowed unless you REALLY know them, because what are they going to write? "he followed me around, seems like a great guy, demonstrated enthusiasm for medicine, etc." how many times do you think adcoms read that before they start gagging?

when to submit: as soon as you receive a secondary. any earlier and you run the risk of having the letters destroyed (some websites, such as UCSF's, state specifically that they will do this).

Hope this helps,
Z

 

[Chouster]

Explain to me why they stress professors so much. Of the few professors that I have LORs from (which I'm still debating on sending or not) I can imagine that they mostly say "this person wrote well. this person did well in the class". I just don't see how professor LORs could be as strong as boss or PI - someone you've worked with for a very long period of time. Please add your $0.02!

 

[Zephyrus]

is that adcoms are looking for as many ways as possible to "level the playing field" between applicants, and requiring letters from college professors is the best way to get evaluations that can be judged impartially side by side, since professors are likely to talk about a lot of the same things (academic aptitude, ability to work with others, communication skills, writing ability, critical thinking, organization and enthusiasm) -- basically a microcosm for the work of medical school. recommendations from employers or friends or non-academic advisors are taken less lightly because they are primarily evaluations of character, and unless the applicant has made no connections then it will generally be glowingly positive.... those sorts of letters are best limited to a single spot in your LOR arsenal which can highlight the quirky individual characteristics and anecdotal evidence of who you are and why medicine matches with you as A PERSON, not a STUDENT, but the professor letters are still crucial.

 

[efex101]

Professor LOR is crucial like the above poster stated because only professors can truly speak of your academic potential, leadership abilities (did you form study groups or some other leadership role that you did), your altruistic side (did you help out other students etc..) ..again the mistake here is that many pre-meds do not nurture a good solid relationship with professors but many do! so when professors write LOR's they are NOT all the same. This is how adcoms *can* separate different groups of applicants. It is not hard to get an exceptional LOR from a professor but it will take more than just going to class and doing well. Again, this is why building relationships is so very important and this is why schools require three academic LOR's. Medical school is about being able to do well academically as well as being a good person..but this has to be demonstrated..via good solid work in undergrad and altruistic endeavors.

 

[Elastase]

Explain to me why they stress professors so much. Of the few professors that I have LORs from (which I'm still debating on sending or not) I can imagine that they mostly say "this person wrote well. this person did well in the class". I just don't see how professor LORs could be as strong as boss or PI - someone you've worked with for a very long period of time. Please add your $0.02![/QUOTE


Whad up Chouster. SEriously I dont get this either... Berkeley profs would not do as well as my PI or doctors I work with....You do you PS yet?

 

[tigress]

This is "not" necessarily true..sure if the are used to sending LOR's to the same schools (most pre-meds apply to X or Y schools from that undergrad) then yes the pre-med office "will" know how many and where to send. I OTOH applied to schools that most pre-meds in my undergrad never had applied to so I waited to make sure that a) the schools offered me a secondary and b) the address and who to send it to. Also, my school did have a pre-med committee letter then the two LOR from science and one from non-science may not apply...because each committee does things differently..from my memory of the process most medical schools secondaries were online adn you could select the option if you were sending committee letter OR sending two science and one non-science..

But my committee will only send out letters once, and I certainly don't want to wait to see if and when I receive secondaries for all the schools before I get my LORs to any of them. Some schools may send secondaries early, and I'd like them to have my complete application as early as possible, which may be before other schools even send their secondaries. So what am I supposed to do about this? The committee doesn't ask for addresses to send letters, just school names, so I was thinking they must have a book or something which tells them where to send the letter.

 

[Chouster]

Howz it hanging MIKE G over there in 'sco? Hope all your experiments are running along nicely. I'm expecting a first author Nature paper from your group very soon ok?

Explain to me why they stress professors so much. Of the few professors that I have LORs from (which I'm still debating on sending or not) I can imagine that they mostly say "this person wrote well. this person did well in the class". I just don't see how professor LORs could be as strong as boss or PI - someone you've worked with for a very long period of time. Please add your $0.02![/QUOTE


Whad up Chouster. SEriously I dont get this either... Berkeley profs would not do as well as my PI or doctors I work with....You do you PS yet?

 

[N1DERL&]

Question, my school writes a committee letter for us and I wanted a letter from an MD but I don't want to hold up the writing of my committee letter because the MD letter won't be ready till August.

Does it look funny to have a committee letter and extra letters sent to schools?

Thanks in advance!

 

[efex101]

Tigress I think that I understand what you mean...your school will only send ALL LOR's only in one batch right? so then yes, you tell them ALL the schools you applied to on AMCAS and hope that all these schools have started files on you. See the problem may arise (although this may not happen frequently) *if* the school has not sent you a secondary yet they may not have a "file" on you by the time they receive your LOR...and then things may get placed in the wrong folder. This policy of your school makes no sense to me because what if some school never gets the LOR will your school not resubmit because they only send LOR's once?

 

[QofQuimica]

For those of you who are non-trads, you can get exceptions made to the "three professor, two science and one nonscience" rule if you can't easily obtain those types of letters. I haven't taken a nonscience class in a decade, my college mentor retired, and I don't even know if she's still alive let alone where she is. So I won't be sending a non-science professor letter. For science, I have not taken many classes since my first year of grad school, so I am getting my PhD mentor plus one of my committee members to write letters for me. I'm also having my boss and my immediate supervisor write one for me. In addition, some schools that have "expiration dates" on the pre-reqs will waive them if your grades and MCAT are good and you ask them to do so. The schools that I spoke to were very understanding about this difficulty for me as an older applicant.

 

[MoosePilot]

For those of you who are non-trads, you can get exceptions made to the "three professor, two science and one nonscience" rule if you can't easily obtain those types of letters. I haven't taken a nonscience class in a decade, my college mentor retired, and I don't even know if she's still alive let alone where she is. So I won't be sending a non-science professor letter. For science, I have not taken many classes since my first year of grad school, so I am getting my PhD mentor plus one of my committee members to write letters for me. I'm also having my boss and my immediate supervisor write one for me. In addition, some schools that have "expiration dates" on the pre-reqs will waive them if your grades and MCAT are good and you ask them to do so. The schools that I spoke to were very understanding about this difficulty for me as an older applicant.

Do you actually have to ask them to waive the pre-req expiration date? How do you find out what schools have such expiration dates?

 

[Minion677]

So let me get this straight.. your recs dont need to be in for med schools to send you secondaries and interview you? or do LORs need to be sent in order for you to get an interview?

 

[tigress]

Tigress I think that I understand what you mean...your school will only send ALL LOR's only in one batch right? so then yes, you tell them ALL the schools you applied to on AMCAS and hope that all these schools have started files on you. See the problem may arise (although this may not happen frequently) *if* the school has not sent you a secondary yet they may not have a "file" on you by the time they receive your LOR...and then things may get placed in the wrong folder. This policy of your school makes no sense to me because what if some school never gets the LOR will your school not resubmit because they only send LOR's once?

Yeah. That's a good point about resending. I don't know, I need to ask the committee head. Of course she's impossible to get in touch with Maybe I'll just ask my friends from college who have already gone through this.

 

[efex101]

The LOR's *ARE* needed before you get invited for interview..this is how your file is deemed COMPLETE *but* LOR's are NOT needed for you to get secondaries. The way it works is once you hit submit on AMCAS *and* AMCAS has verified your information (mainly that the courses you put in are the ones you took and grades you put in are the ones on your transcript) the information gets electronically submitted to "most" schools (some are still using paper copies but I bet these are in the minority). Now, some schools will get "preliminary" biographical data from AMCAS before you are actually verified (but you have already hit submit) and some will start sending secondaries ASAP. I started receiving secondaries at the end of June!

 

[Law2Doc]

For those of you who are non-trads, you can get exceptions made to the "three professor, two science and one nonscience" rule if you can't easily obtain those types of letters. I haven't taken a nonscience class in a decade, my college mentor retired, and I don't even know if she's still alive let alone where she is. So I won't be sending a non-science professor letter. For science, I have not taken many classes since my first year of grad school, so I am getting my PhD mentor plus one of my committee members to write letters for me. I'm also having my boss and my immediate supervisor write one for me. In addition, some schools that have "expiration dates" on the pre-reqs will waive them if your grades and MCAT are good and you ask them to do so. The schools that I spoke to were very understanding about this difficulty for me as an older applicant.

Also, it should be noted that nontraditionals are sometimes expected/permitted to have significantly more LORs than the three professor LORs one might have coming straight from undergrad. Employer LORs are usually a good idea if you have worked for a significant time period prior to applying, as are LORs from any PIs you have researched under, and graduate school professors (if applicable).

 

[efex101]

This is very true but make sure you do not overwhelm the office with excessive LOR's this is a sure way to get someone ticked off..it is unreal how many folks are rude to the secretaries/assistants and this *is* anotated on applications just fyi and can be the kiss of death..

 

[QofQuimica]

Do you actually have to ask them to waive the pre-req expiration date? How do you find out what schools have such expiration dates?

You can check the MSAR, or you can call every school you want to apply to and ask them. I did both. Duke is a good example. They say that they want all of your pre-reqs to be taken within the past seven years. When I spoke to them, I was told to write a letter with my secondary and ask them to waive that requirement based on my MCAT score and my having a chemistry PhD. Otherwise I couldn't apply there unless I retook all of my pre-reqs.