Where do I go from undergrad?

[Diddy30]

When I picture myself in my dream job I’m mainly doing psychotherapy. I would like to collaborate on treatment plans with other healthcare professionals and I think acute cases would be interesting, but I realize it’s much more likely that I’ll be working in an out-patient setting. I will probably want to participate in research and I would like to have the options of teaching later down the road.

What is the best route for me to take? PsyD, PhD, or settle for my masters? I don’t want to create a ton of debt for myself, I would like to be versatile, but I’m mainly interested in psychotherapy. I’m just starting out so I could use any info/guidance that I could get. My goal is to be able to survive while I’m paying back my debt.

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[SingingPsyLady]

Early on in my "what do I do with this bachelor's degree" discussions, I was debating between the PhD and PsyD. A few of my professors encouraged me not to do the PsyD. If you want to teach in a higher educational setting, apparently PsyDs do not get hired traditionally for these types of positions. Also, if you really want to do research, just as much if not more than be a clinician, the PhD route could be better.

However, if you don't love research, then going the route of the PsyD would probably bring you more educational and career satisfaction. My understanding is that there is research involved in the PsyD but not nearly as much compared to getting a PhD. PhD graduate programs are incredibly research intensive, for the most part, so if you don't love research, it will be a long 5-7 years.

If your main goal is be a clinician then you have a few options and the PsyD is one of them. The biggest issues with the PsyD (for me anyway) was the financial burden. They're incredibly expensive and funding is hard to come by and I have also heard that it is harder to land an internship in a PsyD program. Another solid option that I've heard is getting a masters in social work or depending on your state, a masters in mental health counseling, which allow you to specialize as well. I have a professor at my institution who has his Masters in Mental Health Counseling and he is able to teach on an undergraduate level. Private practice and outpatient clinics are both options with those two masters degrees.

I think your best bet is to really flush out what you want to do, how much longer you want to be in school for, and how much more debt you're willing to go in to. If you love research and you want to be a clinician and you don't mind being in school for 5-7 years longer, go for the PhD in Clinical. It's ultra competitive but you'll receive funding so that solves the going into more debt issue. If you don't love research but really want to pursue a doctorate and can swallow about 100K in student loan debt, then the PsyD might be right for you.

 

[Diddy30]

My career satisfaction would really be focused on psychotherapy.

In my state the clinical psych PhD programs are just as expensive as the PsyD programs. This has pushed me more towards PsyD because it matches my background and interests.

Taking national average salaries (I know these vary greatly) I've determined that as a counselor with my masters I would make about half, have less than half debt, and it would take about half the time vs. a PsyD. But once my debt is paid off, as a PsyD I'll be making double what I would as a counselor until I retire and it's my understanding that I'll have more job opportunities that match my interests. But It'll be much more work and much longer.

I'm just not sure!

 

[erg923]

My career satisfaction would really be focused on psychotherapy.

In my state the clinical psych PhD programs are just as expensive as the PsyD programs. This has pushed me more towards PsyD because it matches my background and interests.

Taking national average salaries (I know these vary greatly) I've determined that as a counselor with my masters I would make about half, have less than half debt, and it would take about half the time vs. a PsyD. But once my debt is paid off, as a PsyD I'll be making double what I would as a counselor until I retire and it's my understanding that I'll have more job opportunities that match my interests. But It'll be much more work and much longer.

I'm just not sure!

Ph.d program are funded and provide tuition remission. You get paid to do it, rather than you paying them...

How exactly does one pay off 200k (with interest) loan with a median pretax salary of 60k in less than 20 years? Live with parents? Not have a family? Marry a surgeon?

 

[SingingPsyLady]

My career satisfaction would really be focused on psychotherapy.

In my state the clinical psych PhD programs are just as expensive as the PsyD programs. This has pushed me more towards PsyD because it matches my background and interests.

Taking national average salaries (I know these vary greatly) I've determined that as a counselor with my masters I would make about half, have less than half debt, and it would take about half the time vs. a PsyD. But once my debt is paid off, as a PsyD I'll be making double what I would as a counselor until I retire and it's my understanding that I'll have more job opportunities that match my interests. But It'll be much more work and much longer.

I'm just not sure!

Maybe you're unclear as to how the PhD funding works. If you attend an APA accredited Clinical Psych PhD program, more often than not, your entire tuition is paid for. Additionally, you're stipend, which means that you make a salary (usually around 16-17,000 a yearish? I could be off) to be a student, work as a teaching assistant/research assistant. So in a nutshell, if you're able to get into a PhD in Clinical that is accredited by the APA, you more than likely will not go into deeper debt.

PsyD is a totally different story. Like I said, funding is not traditionally available and you WILL go into mass debt, undoubtedly. If you really want to be a clinician and you really enjoy research, I'd start researching some APA Accredited institutions that offer Clinical Psych PhD programs. No debt, come out with a pretty decent salary, and you'll be able to practice plus do research. Win win.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Pursue the fully-funded PhD which means getting involved in research as much as possible. Even if research is not what you want to do long term, it is still an essential part of being a psychologist. I also agree with the other posters that the financial benefits of not having a high debt load is a huge plus. Another factor is that many of the PsyD programs have inferior outcomes as far as matching, EPPP pass rates, and incomes. I went to a pretty solid University-based PsyD program so the first problem has been more of an issue than the second. I would hate to have had both problems!

 

[Diddy30]

No I don't really know about PhD program funding, like I said I'm just starting out. I'm not claiming to know anything, in fact I know very little about all of this. But I've found this forum really informing and I'd like to ask my own questions and hear feedback from people far more educated than me. My philosophy is that we all start somewhere, so thank you for being understanding and helpful to me while I'm learning.

Is this funding true for private school PhD programs too? All I've seen are each school's estimated tuition and fees costs, which ends up being just as much as the PsyD programs. I haven't seen any information on any of the PhD programs being funded. If I knew this I wouldn't have been thinking about PsyD programs at all.

Now a new question, do you directly enter into PhD programs with your bachelors like some PsyD programs, or do you typically earn your masters first?

 

[erg923]

No I don't really know about PhD program funding, like I said I'm just starting out. I'm not claiming to know anything, in fact I know very little about all of this. But I've found this forum really informing and I'd like to ask my own questions and hear feedback from people far more educated than me. My philosophy is that we all start somewhere, so thank you for being understanding and helpful to me while I'm learning.

Is this funding true for private school PhD programs too? All I've seen are each school's estimated tuition and fees costs, which ends up being just as much as the PsyD programs. I haven't seen any information on any of the PhD programs being funded. If I knew this I wouldn't have been thinking about PsyD programs at all.

Now a new question, do you directly enter into PhD programs with your bachelors like some PsyD programs, or do you typically earn your masters first?

Yes.

And one can go directly from undergrad to a doctoral program in psychology.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Is this funding true for private school PhD programs too?

Erg is correct that private universities have funded PhDs, but there are a number of schools that are not tied to universities that offer "PhDs" but I am pretty sure that they are funded. They usually have the name professional school of psychology attached to them. These schools also tend to be good at promoting themselves and putting out lots of misinformation.

 

[Diddy30]

So your tuition is paid for and you're offered a stipend? Why? I mean why are these programs funded?

 

[erg923]

So your tuition is paid for and you're offered a stipend? Why? I mean why are these programs funded?

You work in a professor's lab doing and assisting their research progam and developing projects of your own. Usually 15-20 hours a week or so. Most program also have grad students teach or asisst in teaching undergrad classes. All this is in addition to taking classes, reading, doing homework/assignments/papers and clinical training. Busy is an understatement.

 

[smalltownpsych]

So your tuition is paid for and you're offered a stipend? Why? I mean why are these programs funded?

Also, research brings in grant money. Universities like things that bring in money.

 

[SingingPsyLady]

So your tuition is paid for and you're offered a stipend? Why? I mean why are these programs funded?

It is basically ensuring the continuation of the science of psychology. It's the way the field invests in it's future, more or less. Not all fields of psychology are funded by the APA though. I am in the process of applying to PhD programs in both social and clinical settings and the social programs are slightly less competitive, but the funding isn't as much of a guarantee.

To make yourself competitive to gain entry into these fully funded PhD programs in clinical you'll want to maintain a high GPA (3.5 and higher), GRE scores in the 70-90th percentile in both the V,Q, and Analytical, acquire some research experience while in undergrad working in a lab or doing your own independent studies, attending conferences, and hopefully getting a publication (this is a TOUGH one!).

Another option you may want to consider, and perhaps someone else can elaborate more here.. but pursuing a PhD in Counseling may be another viable option. Like the clinical PhD programs, there are also fully funded counseling PhD programs as well. While I have heard they can be less research intensive, I'd say this probably varies from program to program. Some admit directly from undergrad, some require a masters, but it still definitely a solid avenue you may want to explore.

You can use this website to look at accredited programs in both clinical and counseling:
http://apps.apa.org/accredsearch/

 

[Diddy30]

Wow, lots of good information. Thank you for your contributions.

I've been reading about job outlooks and salaries but overall it seems like the job market is pretty saturated with PhDs and starting wages for those who are finding jobs are not as much as expected, how has finding an internship/post-doc/job been for you?

Erg- I've read some of your posts about relocating, jobs, salary, where PhDs fit in this type of job market.

Could any of you give some advice to someone who is thinking about coming into this educational/career path? Is this a smart economical decision in the long run? I know there's some times like internship, post-doc, and licensure that can be pretty tricky financial/career wise.

For someone like me who's mainly interested in psychotheraphy, do you think a PhD is a good option for me? Do you think MA in counseling or clinical is better? (in my state you can be licensed with a masters) Perhaps PhD in counseling like SingingPsyLady suggested? (which I haven't looked into at all yet)

I just finished my research methods course and along with doing really well found it pretty interesting, so that's opened me more up to the idea of contributing to research.

 

[erg923]

Wow, lots of good information. Thank you for your contributions.

I've been reading about job outlooks and salaries but overall it seems like the job market is pretty saturated with PhDs and starting wages for those who are finding jobs are not as much as expected, how has finding an internship/post-doc/job been for you?

Erg- I've read some of your posts about relocating, jobs, salary, where PhDs fit in this type of job market.

Could any of you give some advice to someone who is thinking about coming into this educational/career path? Is this a smart economical decision in the long run? I know there's some times like internship, post-doc, and licensure that can be pretty tricky financial/career wise.

For someone like me who's mainly interested in psychotheraphy, do you think a PhD is a good option for me? Do you think MA in counseling or clinical is better? (in my state you can be licensed with a masters) Perhaps PhD in counseling like SingingPsyLady suggested? (which I haven't looked into at all yet)

I just finished my research methods course and along with doing really well found it pretty interesting, so that's opened me more up to the idea of contributing to research.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/private-practive-what-degree.1114858/

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It is basically ensuring the continuation of the science of psychology. It's the way the field invests in it's future, more or less. Not all fields of psychology are funded by the APA though. I am in the process of applying to PhD programs in both social and clinical settings and the social programs are slightly less competitive, but the funding isn't as much of a guarantee.

To make yourself competitive to gain entry into these fully funded PhD programs in clinical you'll want to maintain a high GPA (3.5 and higher), GRE scores in the 70-90th percentile in both the V,Q, and Analytical, acquire some research experience while in undergrad working in a lab or doing your own independent studies, attending conferences, and hopefully getting a publication (this is a TOUGH one!).

Another option you may want to consider, and perhaps someone else can elaborate more here.. but pursuing a PhD in Counseling may be another viable option. Like the clinical PhD programs, there are also fully funded counseling PhD programs as well. While I have heard they can be less research intensive, I'd say this probably varies from program to program. Some admit directly from undergrad, some require a masters, but it still definitely a solid avenue you may want to explore.

You can use this website to look at accredited programs in both clinical and counseling:
http://apps.apa.org/accredsearch/

Just a slight clarification here--it's typically not the APA that funds clinical psychology programs; the APA simply accredits them. Funding typically comes from research or training grants (e.g., though NIMH/NIH), fellowships, revenue earned through the on-campus clinic (the one at my grad school actually paid for itself and even earned a small profit for the university), or occasionally money from the university itself.

RE: the job market saturation, it's going to depend on where you are (i.e., geographically), who you know, what type of job you want, and how good you are at what you do/getting people to recognize what you do. In my own personal example, I didn't run into difficulty finding a job, but I did have to apply to a small handful before landing one, and I was looking in generally less-desirable geographic locales. It's not in the exact city I would've hoped for, but it's close enough, and the work and work environment are fairly close to the ideal I'd had in mind when beginning my search. The pay isn't half bad, either, which helps.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Wow, lots of good information. Thank you for your contributions.

I've been reading about job outlooks and salaries but overall it seems like the job market is pretty saturated with PhDs and starting wages for those who are finding jobs are not as much as expected, how has finding an internship/post-doc/job been for you?

Erg- I've read some of your posts about relocating, jobs, salary, where PhDs fit in this type of job market.

Could any of you give some advice to someone who is thinking about coming into this educational/career path? Is this a smart economical decision in the long run? I know there's some times like internship, post-doc, and licensure that can be pretty tricky financial/career wise.

For someone like me who's mainly interested in psychotheraphy, do you think a PhD is a good option for me? Do you think MA in counseling or clinical is better? (in my state you can be licensed with a masters) Perhaps PhD in counseling like SingingPsyLady suggested? (which I haven't looked into at all yet)

I just finished my research methods course and along with doing really well found it pretty interesting, so that's opened me more up to the idea of contributing to research.

Worrying about the job market is not the right question. The right question to ask is if you have what it takes to become a psychologist. If you do, then the money will come and part of what a psychologist does is advocate for the field of psychology including increased compensation. The average psychologist makes more than the average MA. Those are the facts. I hate the question about whether the extra income is worth the extra school. If that is the main question, then the MA is the right option. I am glad that I had people point out the flaws in that thinking when i was starting out this career. Watch a little Shark Tank and see how those successful business people rip to shreds people with that mentality and refuse to invest any of their money into someone who starts with a lower goal.

 

[Diddy30]

Worrying about the job market is not the right question. The right question to ask is if you have what it takes to become a psychologist. If you do, then the money will come and part of what a psychologist does is advocate for the field of psychology including increased compensation. The average psychologist makes more than the average MA. Those are the facts. I hate the question about whether the extra income is worth the extra school. If that is the main question, then the MA is the right option. I am glad that I had people point out the flaws in that thinking when i was starting out this career. Watch a little Shark Tank and see how those successful business people rip to shreds people with that mentality and refuse to invest any of their money into someone who starts with a lower goal.

I didn't ask if the extra salary is worth the extra school, I asked if going for my PhD is worth it based on my interests/career satisfaction and I also stated I don't mind the extra school.

I'm not sure how to know while I'm just starting out researching a career if I "have what it takes" to do it. There's a lot of different components that could determine someone's worth or success in a specific field, and whether or not they "think" they can do it, when they're only in their undergrad degree, JUST researching their options, doesn't exactly measure anything of value.

I think asking about the potential job market you'd be entering is smart considering the amount of time and effort you'd have to put into getting into a PhD program let alone finish one, an internship, potentially a post-doc, and THEN get to seeking employment.

Lots of interesting information given, thanks to everyone who contributed to my thread.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I didn't ask if the extra salary is worth the extra school, I asked if going for my PhD is worth it based on my interests/career satisfaction and I also stated I don't mind the extra school.

I'm not sure how to know while I'm just starting out researching a career if I "have what it takes" to do it. There's a lot of different components that could determine someone's worth or success in a specific field, and whether or not they "think" they can do it, when they're only in their undergrad degree, JUST researching their options, doesn't exactly measure anything of value.

I think asking about the potential job market you'd be entering is smart considering the amount of time and effort you'd have to put into getting into a PhD program let alone finish one, an internship, potentially a post-doc, and THEN get to seeking employment.

Lots of interesting information given, thanks to everyone who contributed to my thread.

I don't want you to think I was being negative toward you and please understand that it is hard to determine tone from a board. I am also responding to many other posts along those lines and not directly to your post. My intent was more to coach and encourage the mindset that someone would need to have to be a psychologist as opposed to criticizing the mindset that you have now which I can't begin to ascertain from a posting. As far as having what it takes, I often feared that I didn't have what it takes and it is a challenging prospect to become a psychologist. The other side of that is if you were to ask a medical doctor should I pursue an MD or a Nurse Practitioner what types of responses would you expect to get? To be fair, I have seen on the Psychiatry forums occasional specific advice related to a persons unique situation to consider the lesser degree, but the general gist of advice is almost always going to be to go for the highest possible qualification.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This link might help to answer some of your questions about financial prospects for MA vs PhD/PsyD http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/is-there-any-money-in-social-work.1110566/
You might want to skim down a bit to where we began discussing median incomes.

 

[Diddy30]

I don't want you to think I was being negative toward you and please understand that it is hard to determine tone from a board. I am also responding to many other posts along those lines and not directly to your post. My intent was more to coach and encourage the mindset that someone would need to have to be a psychologist as opposed to criticizing the mindset that you have now which I can't begin to ascertain from a posting. As far as having what it takes, I often feared that I didn't have what it takes and it is a challenging prospect to become a psychologist. The other side of that is if you were to ask a medical doctor should I pursue an MD or a Nurse Practitioner what types of responses would you expect to get? To be fair, I have seen on the Psychiatry forums occasional specific advice related to a persons unique situation to consider the lesser degree, but the general gist of advice is almost always going to be to go for the highest possible qualification.

Not at all, I completely understand and am grateful for your insights and links. I'm just trying to figure out what I want to do and what my options are and not knowing a lot about the field in general, it's nice to have the opinions/advice from others.

In all honesty I've been contemplating a lesser degree and hoping that with a masters I would be able to conduct psychotherapy and still get the opportunity to participate in research/teaching later down the road (maybe even at CC level?). For the most part it was my understanding that I wouldn't really be able to do this without a PsyD/PhD, but the road just seems very long, intense, expensive, and complicated internship/post-doc wise.

Thinking about lesser degree options I've been contemplating a masters in counseling and LCSW.

 

[Goobernut]

So if you want to teach full time at a university as a tenured professor you will most likely need a PhD. In shortest possible terms, to teach psych, you will need a psych PhD. If you just want to teach part-time, or one class a semester etc, the requirements can be less stringent depending on the university. At my undergrad, we had many, many, many regional campuses. While all of my psych professors were PhDs or PsyDs, one or two were moonlighting from a clinical job rather than teaching full time. In some of the other professions (business and education) the professors were not PhD's.

At my current grad school, there are occasionally MSWs and LCSWs teaching a class here or there, but we have a few empty tenured spots they are in the process of filling. Being a tenured professor in social work has a tad different process than in psych (or at least in general it does). In the majority of cases, social work programs will want you to have your MSW and 2 years experience (preferably with some type of advanced social work license to boot) before you apply for PhD programs. In psych there are many PhD programs that will take you straight from undergrad. Keep that in mind if you are thinking about teaching on the side -- if you get a social work degree, you will most likely only be able to teach social work, and vice versa for psych related degrees. But yes, you can teach community college and some college with a master's degree. One of our local community colleges has both an associates in psych and social work. Though what someone would do with either of those I have no clue, unless it's just a stepping stone?

I think many of us have been in your position. Trying to decide the best course of action to take when we aren't even sure what half our options are. Or if we will even enjoy doing those things! In addition to the threads that Smalltownpsych and Erg linked, take a look at this thread all about MSWs and what they do, especially the last page where some of us have added links to more MSW vs PhD threads. If you have any questions for me personally on how I came to the MSW vs PhD decision you may either PM me or ask them in this thread, whichever you are more comfortable with. There are reasons to get one degree or the other, and usually the reasons should not overlap. Though, in the beginning, it is hard to sort it all out. To add to all the confusion, skills do somewhat overlap, and some job openings will list all the degrees together for a single opening.

 

[Diddy30]

I think many of us have been in your position. Trying to decide the best course of action to take when we aren't even sure what half our options are. Or if we will even enjoy doing those things! In addition to the threads that Smalltownpsych and Erg linked, take a look at this thread all about MSWs and what they do, especially the last page where some of us have added links to more MSW vs PhD threads. If you have any questions for me personally on how I came to the MSW vs PhD decision you may either PM me or ask them in this thread, whichever you are more comfortable with. There are reasons to get one degree or the other, and usually the reasons should not overlap. Though, in the beginning, it is hard to sort it all out. To add to all the confusion, skills do somewhat overlap, and some job openings will list all the degrees together for a single opening.

Thanks for this paragraph- it is a little difficult researching the many different options. So far I think a master's is probably more my preference. Thanks for the link too!

If it's alright I'd like to ask you a bunch of questions, you can pick and choose what you want to answer if it's all too much. Like I've said I'm really just starting to researching things and although most of these things I can gather by searching online, it's really nice to connect with someone who's specifically in the field/has their own opinions and experiences.

What did you want to get out of a career?
Did you have a focus or specific track?
Are you working in your ideal position with your MSW/what position are you in?
Is your salary satisfactory? Dare I ask a range you may have started out in?
What have you found the job market to be like pursuing a MSW?
Have you had to relocate for better positions?

If you want to PM for more specific answers that's understandable.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Some other options as well as a caveat to some of the aforementioned Psy.D. comments. Psy.D.'s can teach, most notably at other Psy.D. programs, but I have seen several that are faculty at well respected university systems (e.g. University of Texas system, etc.).

Other options you may consider, would be to go through either a psychiatric NP master's program (which would require you to go back to take pre-req. classes, train to become a RN at the undergrad level and then be admitted to a NP master's program). The other side would be to apply to a physician assistant program (master's) and to complete your internships in psychiatry to be a psychiatric PA-C. Depending on the practice, you MAY get some opportunities to do some talk therapy, but be prepared to push meds for most of your practice, seeing 14+ patients a day is normal.

These are all feasible options, your career is what you make of it. I know of plenty of NP's who received either a second master's or a doctoral degree in counseling to be an LPC in addition to being a psychiatric nurse practitioner. This allows them to utilize both of their experiences and charge accordingly and within scope of their professional degree(s)/licenses.

 

[Diddy30]

Some other options as well as a caveat to some of the aforementioned Psy.D. comments. Psy.D.'s can teach, most notably at other Psy.D. programs, but I have seen several that are faculty at well respected university systems (e.g. University of Texas system, etc.).

Other options you may consider, would be to go through either a psychiatric NP master's program (which would require you to go back to take pre-req. classes, train to become a RN at the undergrad level and then be admitted to a NP master's program). The other side would be to apply to a physician assistant program (master's) and to complete your internships in psychiatry to be a psychiatric PA-C. Depending on the practice, you MAY get some opportunities to do some talk therapy, but be prepared to push meds for most of your practice, seeing 14+ patients a day is normal.

These are all feasible options, your career is what you make of it. I know of plenty of NP's who received either a second master's or a doctoral degree in counseling to be an LPC in addition to being a psychiatric nurse practitioner. This allows them to utilize both of their experiences and charge accordingly and within scope of their professional degree(s)/licenses.

Yes I'm very familiar with the medical field options; I started off my college journey through a vocational medical assisting program, to a uni for pre-nursing (with the idea of MHNP), and then changed to pre-med (Psychiatry) only to find through a few years of working as a CMA/shadowing that ultimately my interest is not nursing or prescribing, and also that these routes require a lot of extra work in areas I'm not as interested in. I just wasn't as vested (interest wise not effort wise) as my peers and being as those fields are super competitive I wasn't going to take that time and use my effort to base my life around something, when I feel there are other routes I'm more interested in.

It's taken me a longggg time to figure out "what I want to be when I grow up". And also a lot of debt... which I would like to accrue less of.

To add to the teaching/research comments and suggestions, I would prefer to only teach courses that relate to my degree (like social work or psychology) and I don't necessarily care to teach at a university, as my ultimate interest is in psychotherapy not teaching. I just thought having the option to one day teach a class at a community college (aside from my FT job) would be interesting if I feel that I could contribute something meaningful from what I've learned in my field (obviously after years of practicing).

Another reason I'm not as for PhD programs and leaning more towards a masters (although I appreciate research immensely and would like to potentially contribute to something in my focus) I again, don't have a strong desire to conduct research and would just like to read lots and lots of it to utilize up to date information for more successful therapy. But if I find a niche it would be cool to work on a team and collaborate some work together.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

When I picture myself in my dream job I’m mainly doing psychotherapy. I would like to collaborate on treatment plans with other healthcare professionals and I think acute cases would be interesting, but I realize it’s much more likely that I’ll be working in an out-patient setting. I will probably want to participate in research and I would like to have the options of teaching later down the road.

What is the best route for me to take? PsyD, PhD, or settle for my masters? I don’t want to create a ton of debt for myself, I would like to be versatile, but I’m mainly interested in psychotherapy. I’m just starting out so I could use any info/guidance that I could get. My goal is to be able to survive while I’m paying back my debt.

I cannot agree more with the notion that if you want to do therapy (and be knowledgeable about what you are doing), then you really can't 'skip' or 'skimp' on the research aspect. One of the most critical core competencies in the field involves being able to think logically, clearly, trying to minimize the effects of biases or errors in logic, knowing that fallibility is the 'hallmark' of science, and--in short--knowing what you don't know. The psychotherapy field is awash in bullhockey theories and errors in reasoning and unfounded advice/opinion about the causes and cures for mental disorders. And it hurts people everyday. Start with understanding and applying basic differential diagnostic criteria for mental disorders. I encounter licensed/credentialed/whatever providers in the VA system who diagnose bipolar disorder at the drop of a hat without even addressing the issue of whether the individual has ever in their lives even experienced a single manic/hypomanic/mixed episode. The differential between bipolar disorder and unipolar depression is not some trivial, inconsequential, 'academic' distinction. It makes a huge difference in terms of the treatment (especially medication) decided on and psychotropic drugs have multiple potential short and long-term adverse effects. I recently saw a case in which an individual had just gone through two months of acute/subacute psychiatric inpatient care followed by several weeks of residential care and his chart was filled with provider notes saying something to the effect of 'rule out bipolar disorder' (all the while prescribing drugs for his condition). Ruling in/out bipolar disorder is not a very difficult or extensive or time-consuming task for a properly trained mental health professional. This guy was in inpatient (round the clock) psychiatric care for over 3 months in a 6 month period, was seen by a veritable army of highly paid licensed providers and not one of them took the 15-20 minutes of interview time it would take to 'rule out' bipolar disorder.

A few things that your graduate school training (in preparation for being a therapist) absolutely must instill in you is:

A) this is serious work; we're not just 'professional friends' or people to talk to; people's lives and well-being are on the line and we are getting paid to help them--don't just fly by the seat of your pants; do your homework (hit the literature) and take this seriously
B) assume as a baseline condition when you encounter any new diagnosis/situation/consult/whatever that you don't know what you're doing (I do this routinely after pretty solid professional training and 20 yrs mental health experience at this point) and take the time to hit up reputable sources of information (review articles, colleagues, practice guidelines, professional specialty guidelines) until you feel pretty comfortable that you are getting convergent advice from multiple credible sources
C) the most fundamental wisdom that is derived (and it's absolutely essential, even for those who 'just want to see patients') from reading/doing psychological research is the profoundly reliable observation that a lot of what we think we know about something in mental health is very often not true and just because a magazine article or someone with buttloads of 'experience' says so doesn't make it so

As far as PsyD vs. PhD, I know that I received good training on the above through a traditional, university-based PhD program in clinical psychology and I think that, on average, it's probably the better way to go...but that's just my opinion. That being said, individual variability is a huge factor and you'll see some PhD's practicing like Anton Mesmer and some PsyD's practicing like David frikin' Barlow.

 

[Diddy30]

I cannot agree more with the notion that if you want to do therapy (and be knowledgeable about what you are doing), then you really can't 'skip' or 'skimp' on the research aspect. One of the most critical core competencies in the field involves being able to think logically, clearly, trying to minimize the effects of biases or errors in logic, knowing that fallibility is the 'hallmark' of science, and--in short--knowing what you don't know. The psychotherapy field is awash in bullhockey theories and errors in reasoning and unfounded advice/opinion about the causes and cures for mental disorders. And it hurts people everyday. Start with understanding and applying basic differential diagnostic criteria for mental disorders. I encounter licensed/credentialed/whatever providers in the VA system who diagnose bipolar disorder at the drop of a hat without even addressing the issue of whether the individual has ever in their lives even experienced a single manic/hypomanic/mixed episode. The differential between bipolar disorder and unipolar depression is not some trivial, inconsequential, 'academic' distinction. It makes a huge difference in terms of the treatment (especially medication) decided on and psychotropic drugs have multiple potential short and long-term adverse effects. I recently saw a case in which an individual had just gone through two months of acute/subacute psychiatric inpatient care followed by several weeks of residential care and his chart was filled with provider notes saying something to the effect of 'rule out bipolar disorder' (all the while prescribing drugs for his condition). Ruling in/out bipolar disorder is not a very difficult or extensive or time-consuming task for a properly trained mental health professional. This guy was in inpatient (round the clock) psychiatric care for over 3 months in a 6 month period, was seen by a veritable army of highly paid licensed providers and not one of them took the 15-20 minutes of interview time it would take to 'rule out' bipolar disorder.

A few things that your graduate school training (in preparation for being a therapist) absolutely must instill in you is:

A) this is serious work; we're not just 'professional friends' or people to talk to; people's lives and well-being are on the line and we are getting paid to help them--don't just fly by the seat of your pants; do your homework (hit the literature) and take this seriously
B) assume as a baseline condition when you encounter any new diagnosis/situation/consult/whatever that you don't know what you're doing (I do this routinely after pretty solid professional training and 20 yrs mental health experience at this point) and take the time to hit up reputable sources of information (review articles, colleagues, practice guidelines, professional specialty guidelines) until you feel pretty comfortable that you are getting convergent advice from multiple credible sources
C) the most fundamental wisdom that is derived (and it's absolutely essential, even for those who 'just want to see patients') from reading/doing psychological research is the profoundly reliable observation that a lot of what we think we know about something in mental health is very often not true and just because a magazine article or someone with buttloads of 'experience' says so doesn't make it so

As far as PsyD vs. PhD, I know that I received good training on the above through a traditional, university-based PhD program in clinical psychology and I think that, on average, it's probably the better way to go...but that's just my opinion. That being said, individual variability is a huge factor and you'll see some PhD's practicing like Anton Mesmer and some PsyD's practicing like David frikin' Barlow.

I completely agree with you, and that's why in my last post I said this:
"I don't have a strong desire to conduct research and would just like to read lots and lots of it to utilize up to date information for more successful therapy. But if I find a niche it would be cool to work on a team and collaborate some work together."

This is not to say that I wouldn’t conduct research while preparing for matriculation, while being in school, or possibly after graduating. It’s just that long term career goal wise it’s not at the top of my list. NOT because it’s not important to me or my field, or that I won’t be using it every single day in therapy, but simply because I’m interested in mainly psychotherapy work wise.

I’m not suggesting that I won’t need to know how to conduct and identify proper research, as well as investigate successful treatment and therapy techniques. I recently completed my research methods course so I have a good foundational idea of the importance of research in any field. I’ve started to learn how to read studies and papers with a skeptical eye and most of my remaining undergrad courses will be revolving around writing/reading in psychology papers, capstone prep courses, and then of course my capstone which is basically a research project, thesis paper, and more. I’m taking abnormal psych this term so it will be interesting to see me use what knowledge I have so far in looking at mental health issues.

Again, not suggesting that I know “squat” about everything yet, but I’m on the road to learning.
Thank you for your list of important skills, I look forward to learning more and more about graduate/doctoral schools/programs. I’ve already learned so much just by those willing to contribute to this thread (as well as the many others I’ve searched for/other’s have posted for me to read).

One question I have for your, since you’re thinking is that a PhD is a good direction, is again about job market/salary after you’ve completed your route. What has been your experience with internship/post-doc/job opportunities that are available? How much experience would you need to get into a PhD program? (I know there is no magic number here)

I’m not worried about this because I think I can only go into a market that will be thriving (I know this is basically non-existent no matter what field you’re interested in right now) or that I’m in it for the money, I’m just trying to get a good school debt-income ratio and job probability. I realize now that a PhD can be funded and that while working in school you can actually make some money, but I’m concerned about the big picture.

My main questions for myself have continually been:
What route best fits my desires in a job, will afford me less debt opportunities, and will I actually be able to come out of and get a position I want?

Of course I am concerned with the amount of time I’d have to spend really getting into research as far as years of experience before I’m even applying to a PhD program, and then I’m also concerned I won’t match interests/research potentials with faculty in the programs in my area. I’m geographically confined at least for my education, but am completely open for moving for internships/post-docs/job opportunities.

Again, I’m not in any hurry, I just want to figure out what route is the best for me to work towards.

Many different things I’ve contemplated have made me think more in the route of masters degrees in either psych or social work. This is not to say I wouldn’t be able to move up if I wasn’t getting out of my degree what I wanted.

 

[Goobernut]

To clarify, I am in my last semester of my MSW program. I am on track to graduate in May 2015. Diddy, if you need more details, lemme know.

Thanks for this paragraph- it is a little difficult researching the many different options. So far I think a master's is probably more my preference. Thanks for the link too!

If it's alright I'd like to ask you a bunch of questions, you can pick and choose what you want to answer if it's all too much. Like I've said I'm really just starting to researching things and although most of these things I can gather by searching online, it's really nice to connect with someone who's specifically in the field/has their own opinions and experiences.

What did you want to get out of a career?
Did you have a focus or specific track?
Are you working in your ideal position with your MSW/what position are you in?
Is your salary satisfactory? Dare I ask a range you may have started out in?
What have you found the job market to be like pursuing a MSW?
Have you had to relocate for better positions?

If you want to PM for more specific answers that's understandable.

1. I wanted to have a career that was intellectually stimulating and benefited my community positively. I started out with the idea of being a school counselor, then it evolved into therapy.

2. Yes, at first I wanted to work with vets, active duty and their families. Through extracurricular programs I participated in, I've decided to go into medical/health social work and for the spring semester, I'll be working as a therapist embedded in a primary care clinic. This is my dream job, mostly because this is what I did last semester as part of my extracurricular program and it is everything I dreamed of in a career. Fast paced, minimal desk work, and you never know what's going to happen when you walk in that room. You work to assist physicians and you have your own therapy clients. In addition, researching problems via literature isn't nerdy, its expected. It's just maaagical to me

3. My new practicum is ideal. Since therapists being imbedded into a primary care clinic is a new-ish thing in my state, I might have a harder time finding this exact position when I've graduated. The skills are highly translatable to most jobs in the medical social work arena, and I will probably work in a Transplant unit or a dialysis unit. LCSWs are usually highly desirable for those positions because Medicare does currently accept LPCs or LMHCs as providers of therapy. End Stage Renal Disease has a special program through Medicare and SS disability, so LCSW are providers of choice in that field.

4. Salary varies greatly in all mental health positions, even at the mid-level providers level. I was relieved to find out that medical/health social work typically pays more than the bottom end. In my state, the hospitals start brand new MSWs out at 45K, and the median in my state is 55K. I think with my past career history, I'll be able to start out a little higher than 45K. The VA starts at 55K to 60K depending on step and previous history etc...

5. I have not actually pursued a job in this field yet! Keep in mind I live in a VERY LOW COST OF LIVING STATE. Last year's graduates all had a job within a couple of months, or were hired straight out of practicum. Only the most clueless (not sure how else to put this?) didn't do well. The community mental health centers here are ALWAYS hiring, but they start at approx $38K a year for someone pursuing licensure. I'm not sure I want to get a masters to work for that. I've heard it goes to $42K a year after you get your license. Really salaries are all over the board. At the masters level, I feel as though it's pretty straightforward. Better paid positions go to better qualified candidates. You go to a more respected school within the state, you'll have a better chance at the higher paying jobs. I feel like this is esp important at the mid-level because students tend to go to school in-state and then stay in-state. There are many places here in the city that recruit us right out of school because they are familiar with our program.

6. Because of most of what I said in #5, I do not expect that I will HAVE to relocate. Part of why I chose the LCSW was for ease of relocation though. Social work curriculum is standardized and we have a national test. Once you are licensed it's easier to transfer from state to state than it is with an LPC or LMHC because of the variation in standards.

If you need any clarification, just lemme know. Also, I don't want you to take this as a "I think the MSW is the best course for everyone." Because really it isn't. Nor is it the worst degree ever and there are actually highly competent MSW programs that do actually train you for therapy. But just because a program says it's a "counseling psych MA/MS" doesn't mean it's competent either. I see a lot about philosophical differences on SW vs Psych, but really as a masters student, it's more about program. I chose the MSW because many of the counseling programs in my city are hideous. No research component, no assistance with practicums/internship, no CACREP or COMAFTE accreditation etc. All the things I see being leveled at MSW curriculum for lacking, I am seeing this currently in students from two other local psych programs. I see this because we're working with them in our some of our practicums! I had more diagnostic skills than a fellow student in a psych program. IF I had chosen the counseling programs I would not have been able to work with Vets or their families, or in the medical field at all, again because of licensure/insurance issues. SO yes, there is lots of pontification on "who you associate yourself with" but in the practical reality of masters licenses, you need to know who and why you want to practice with before you choose your school, or you are forever excluded from working with certain populations. Or well at least until they change the federal regulations in some cases haha. If you want to see some great well thought out posts from someone who chose a counseling/psych masters look up posts from Vasa Lisa on the masters board. I cannot state enough that at the masters level it's more about 1. state licensure rules 2. demographics of desired populations. 3. quality of schools individual programs. For example, there are several posters from NY that say getting anything but an MSW is career suicide. I don't think it's that serious in my state, but the LPC is often seen as an inferior license and they are paid less in my state. Not that it's TRUE, but that's what employers think.

It is an entire different ballgame at the PhD level. There are many reasons to choose it over a masters. You can however participate in research at the masters level. I've even done so working with med students on posters and papers. There are GA positions, and for me, it's the perfect level of involvement. I stay with a hand in research because I love it, but it is not my only goal. You can pick a thesis option and run your own research. If you pick a program that will accommodate your needs

Just PM me if you have any more personal questions, I think I've pontificated on myself long enough ahahaha.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I completely agree with you, and that's why in my last post I said this:
"I don't have a strong desire to conduct research and would just like to read lots and lots of it to utilize up to date information for more successful therapy. But if I find a niche it would be cool to work on a team and collaborate some work together."

This is not to say that I wouldn’t conduct research while preparing for matriculation, while being in school, or possibly after graduating. It’s just that long term career goal wise it’s not at the top of my list. NOT because it’s not important to me or my field, or that I won’t be using it every single day in therapy, but simply because I’m interested in mainly psychotherapy work wise.

I’m not suggesting that I won’t need to know how to conduct and identify proper research, as well as investigate successful treatment and therapy techniques. I recently completed my research methods course so I have a good foundational idea of the importance of research in any field. I’ve started to learn how to read studies and papers with a skeptical eye and most of my remaining undergrad courses will be revolving around writing/reading in psychology papers, capstone prep courses, and then of course my capstone which is basically a research project, thesis paper, and more. I’m taking abnormal psych this term so it will be interesting to see me use what knowledge I have so far in looking at mental health issues.

Again, not suggesting that I know “squat” about everything yet, but I’m on the road to learning.
Thank you for your list of important skills, I look forward to learning more and more about graduate/doctoral schools/programs. I’ve already learned so much just by those willing to contribute to this thread (as well as the many others I’ve searched for/other’s have posted for me to read).

One question I have for your, since you’re thinking is that a PhD is a good direction, is again about job market/salary after you’ve completed your route. What has been your experience with internship/post-doc/job opportunities that are available? How much experience would you need to get into a PhD program? (I know there is no magic number here)

I’m not worried about this because I think I can only go into a market that will be thriving (I know this is basically non-existent no matter what field you’re interested in right now) or that I’m in it for the money, I’m just trying to get a good school debt-income ratio and job probability. I realize now that a PhD can be funded and that while working in school you can actually make some money, but I’m concerned about the big picture.

My main questions for myself have continually been:
What route best fits my desires in a job, will afford me less debt opportunities, and will I actually be able to come out of and get a position I want?

Of course I am concerned with the amount of time I’d have to spend really getting into research as far as years of experience before I’m even applying to a PhD program, and then I’m also concerned I won’t match interests/research potentials with faculty in the programs in my area. I’m geographically confined at least for my education, but am completely open for moving for internships/post-docs/job opportunities.

Again, I’m not in any hurry, I just want to figure out what route is the best for me to work towards.

Many different things I’ve contemplated have made me think more in the route of masters degrees in either psych or social work. This is not to say I wouldn’t be able to move up if I wasn’t getting out of my degree what I wanted.

I applied for my PhD program in 1993 so my knowledge about applying for grad school in psychology is a bit out of date, though I don't get the sense that getting into a graduate program in psychology has become that much more difficult over the years. The real bottleneck is internship. I was director of an APA approved predoctoral internship for several years recently (around 2005-2012) and, lemme tell ya, there's a real crunch there. I think the APPIC website publishes numbers on this (just google APPIC psychology and it should get you there).

As far as the research thing is considered, I have a few thoughts on that. I am not widely published and I do not do research (in terms of publishing) as part of my practice. I have taught courses, however, on the application of the philosophy of science to interns/students and try to adopt a 'local clinical scientist' perspective in my clinical work. In my experience, just because someone churns out a lot of publications doesn't mean they necessarily are beholden to scientific principles/integrity in the process. Research is increasingly a business and 'harvesting asterisks (statistically significant findings)' is often pursued as a means to an end. I saw this firsthand in graduate school and also at a site where a very well-known professor from a local university churned out paper after paper. I'm not dogging on all researchers, just saying that 'doing research' is done with varying degrees of fidelity to scientific/ethical principles and is often driven by financial/prestige/result factors. It's a business. For the practitioner, I think that adherence to a scientific/critical mindset is the key (and staying well-read on that score and applying it continually to their clinical work). Scott Lilienfeld is an author who has been keen on this in recent years and is pretty widely published...his book on Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology is a pretty good read. If you get an MSW or go the LPC route instead of a doctorate in psychology, you COULD become a big fan of this approach if you wanted to, I just think that it wouldn't likely be your natural inclination/interest to do so after going through one of their training programs because my sense of it is that this is not their foundational philosophy as regards mental health treatment.

Regarding the job market/salary angle: like many other posters on this forum I think that psychologists (especially those who do a good job and take their job seriously--i.e.--not the 'professional listeners') are quite underpaid/undervalued in the healthcare marketplace when you consider the effect sizes of our interventions (with no deleterious side effects) and the time/effort that it took to get to a point where we could deliver those interventions effectively. But, realistically, I don't see this changing any time soon. What I do foresee is the further 'dumbing down' of the therapy hour and farming out to cheaper labor (non-doctoral) providers under increasingly nationalized/guaranteed healthcare. What will likely arise from that is an opportunity for doctoral-level providers to establish private practice (fee for service, cash only) catering to the qualities that distinguish their care from the nationalized/guaranteed mental health care by, for instance, emphasizing quality, privacy, and excellent service/outcomes. But this will be a niche business and probably won't support all the psychologists who have been minted over the past 20 years.

 

[nessa34]

My two cents- it is hard to know how you feel about doing research without significant hands-on research experience. I *hated* research methods. It wasn't until I did a summer research internship and got to take the lead on a small project that I really fell in love with it. I would wait to rule that out- plus, if you prepare for a balanced PhD program that includes emphases on research and clinical training, you will be set up for all the other graduate pathways discussed too.

 

[Diddy30]

My two cents- it is hard to know how you feel about doing research without significant hands-on research experience. I *hated* research methods. It wasn't until I did a summer research internship and got to take the lead on a small project that I really fell in love with it. I would wait to rule that out- plus, if you prepare for a balanced PhD program that includes emphases on research and clinical training, you will be set up for all the other graduate pathways discussed too.

I have participated in research while I was pre-med in a pediatric tuberculosis research lab, however it was basically pure microbiology- manipulating cells allllll day long in a hood. I did get to learn how to operate certain programs & machines that analyze blood cells/components, & there were times when I assisted in organizing/making sense of data found & also took part in some writing towards publications.

I'm sure, after research methods & getting into reading more publications, that psychology based research would be more interesting to me. I appreciate research immensely & I understand it's importance, relevance, & foundation in psychotherapy which is the main thing I want to achieve from all of this.

 

[smalltownpsych]

When I picture myself in my dream job I’m mainly doing psychotherapy. I would like to collaborate on treatment plans with other healthcare professionals and I think acute cases would be interesting, but I realize it’s much more likely that I’ll be working in an out-patient setting. I will probably want to participate in research and I would like to have the options of teaching later down the road.

What is the best route for me to take? PsyD, PhD, or settle for my masters? I don’t want to create a ton of debt for myself, I would like to be versatile, but I’m mainly interested in psychotherapy. I’m just starting out so I could use any info/guidance that I could get. My goal is to be able to survive while I’m paying back my debt.

You might also think about longer term ramifications of how it will feel to "settle" for an MA degree. I have worked with lots of MA therapists and counselors in a variety o settings and my observation has been that the more they had wanted to be a psychologist prior, the more dissatisfied they were currently.

 

[Diddy30]

Smalltown- I didn't mean settle in the "give up" sense, I meant more to "resolve" my dilemma determining which route I should take. I should've used different wording. If I had meant to settle in the sense you may have read it in, then that would mean that I would have known previously what route I wanted to take or what I thought was "better" & that resorting to a masters would be my "lesser" choice.

In reality I don't really know what my best option is, this is why I asked the question here. I think a lot of good points/opinions have been shared. I obviously still have a lot of researching/reflecting to do to on my own to really make a decision.

Although in another sense, originally looking into or unofficially "planning" to get a PsyD like I was, one could say I would be settling with my masters by choosing it instead. I say this b/c all around it seems to be a simpler choice than pursuing a PhD. I think those who go after doctorates know that's what they want, & Idk if I'm there. My best option for what I'm specifically looking for in a career might be my masters. To some this might be settling, but my ultimate goal is to determine what option is best for me & if I accomplish that, my decision will be anything but settling, at least to me.

This forum has definitely opened me up to new career ideas I did not previously have. To be honest originally posting this thread I would have never been leaning towards a masters, but I also didn't know (still don't know much) anything about the doctoral route options I was looking into anyways.

 

[Diddy30]

I also really appreciate everyone's input here. There have been some thought provoking suggestions & it has really helped me out. After reading other threads, I was surprised to see so many people responding/willing to lend me their opinion/advice.

Simply asking for undergrad guidance may not be as popular a topic as if I should be simultaneously stripping, but nonetheless I'm impressed with the input.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I also really appreciate everyone's input here. There have been some thought provoking suggestions & it has really helped me out. After reading other threads, I was surprised to see so many people responding/willing to lend me their opinion/advice.

Simply asking for undergrad guidance may not be as popular a topic as if I should be simultaneously stripping, but nonetheless I'm impressed with the input.

That was a great thread and that definitely is one way to pay for grad school.

My comment about settling refers more to coming to terms with your own choices and pursuing the career that you find speaks to you the most. I can think of several people that I have worked with who were very clear with why they chose an MSW or MFT degree and they are passionate about their field and career. They felt that their choice of school and degree made them the best at what they wanted to do. I also remember the social worker at the hospital where I did practicum complaining about how she should get paid as much as the psychologists because she could do therapy, too. However, this hospital and other settings, do place these limitations on who can do what. At my current hospital, the social worker does not have privileges to provide treatment either, but she hired in with that understanding and doesn't mind at all. If you know that is the case and also know where the options are going into it. I think you will be a lot happier regardless of what you choose to do. A more personal example would be the level of frustration that I feel not having access to prescription privileges in most states. If I had a high level of frustration with that then I probably made a bad career choice, fortunately I am mostly glad that I don't have prescription privileges so don't have too many regrets. Sometimes I wish that I was making a psychiatrist's salary, especially in the first couple of years of my career, but with my current income that is much less of an issue either. Hope some of this helps with your decision-making process.

 

[Diddy30]

Thank you, it does!

It is hard to know how I will feel about the decision I make about my career in the future. So I am trying (with help from people like you) to get as much information about my optional pathways as possible.

I originally chose a medical path, & although I love working in a hospital/clinical setting, the kind of work I was doing as a CMA wasn't what I wanted to do forever. Not to mention the wage I wanted to make forever either. I started college courses for nursing before I went through my CMA program, & I really didn't get a good idea of what nursing really was until I was working right next to them in the field. So after I decided nursing wasn't my cup o' tea, I went to pre-med; I was also working next to doctors, getting a good idea of what their job entailed, & it seemed to better fit my desires.

However, I was very unsatisfied through my educational path while pre-med & started realizing that I would have to do/learn about a majority of things I wasn't very interested in in order to get to the point where I wanted to be in my career. This was something I was okay with before, but being in the midst of it all, it became very clear. & looking back on things now, I wouldn't have even been doing what I truly wanted to be doing even if I made it to be a Psychiatrist. I think now more than ever I have a solid idea of what I want out of a career, it's just about matching that up with whatever educational route I need to take to get there.

I don't agree with the low average pay scale for psychologists or people with doctorates in general either. & I'm with you, I would love to one day make what a Psychiatrist makes, while in reality I very most likely will not even come close. Especially if I decide to go the masters route.

But who knows, maybe my trilogy about stripping while working as a therapist will take off!

 

[smalltownpsych]

But who knows, maybe my trilogy about stripping while working as a therapist will take off!

I would probably wait for the movie to come out.

 

[Diddy30]

.