Which has more competitive admissions: PA or Pharm?

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sweetcalie08

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Just out of curiousity... Typically: which type of program is harder to get into: Physician Assistant or Pharmacy? I've heard rumors that the former is harder to be admitted to than the latter. Please comment. :)
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PA School was considerably more competitive to get into than the PharmD program where I went to school...
 
I would say PA. My fiance told me all about it.

I have three friends in Pharm school and not one took the PCAT :eek:

Two of them were pretty much told right out at the interview they were in.
 
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I can only speak for my PA program..our admissions committee received approximately 400 applications to fill 48 spots. I don't know how many they invite for interview though.

Good luck,
Monika =)
 
probably depends on the geographic area you limit yourself to. around here there are more pa programs than pharm programs so statistically a quality applicant should get into pa school more easily if they apply to every program in the region. for an individual who applied to only one of each I don't know the answer. my pa program had>35 applications for each available seat and I don't know the corresponding #s for the local pharm program. a bit of anecdotal "evidence": a friend of mine with an m.s. who is also a resp. therapist and trauma flight rn with a gpa> 3.5 did not get into the local state pharm school......he said it is easier to get into med school here than the pharm program. he is reapplying next year with medschool as his backup.....
 
What a concept...applying to med school as your backup. I always thought ved med and human med were the most difficult programs to get into. Strange. I live in the midwest and there's only one pharm program per state and maybe about two pa programs nearby (one which accepts 30 but is 3 yrs in length and the other when which only accepts TWELVE students and is 2 yrs in length). I guess I'll just wait it out and see if I get into pharm...if not, I'll be hoping to be a PA down the road but realize now that I should in no way count on it. :( This is shocking, I tell ya. :O Oh well...keeping my chin up. :)
 
I think there are quite a few of us who had medical school as our "Plan B" if we didn't get accepted into PA school. (From what I understand, half the applicants to medical school get accepted... do a good job on all the prerequisites, and you stand a fair chance of getting in. Meanwhile, 1/5 of PA school applicants are accepted, from what I hear.)
 
for 2001-2002 there were 132 PA programs for a total of 10,000 students. Assumming that each program is 2 years long ( correct me here if wrong) that is around 38 students per school per class.

If anyone has an AAPA membership, I saw on their site some articles that had the current number of applicants and that will tell us exactly. In some of the abstracts I read it said it was on the rise.

Wow, you guys were right about med school being 2:1. I thought it was way higher. for 2001-2002 there were ~34,000 applicants for ~16,000 seats.


http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB221.htm

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB205.htm

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB207.htm
 
You guys are attempting to compare apples and oranges though. It is probably true that you have a greater chance of getting into medical school than PA school, IF YOU ARE IN THE COMPETITIVE RANGE FOR THE PEOPLE APPLYING. Medical school requirements are more strenuous simply for the fact that one has to be competitve on the MCAT first and foremost. I mean it is quite likely that if you took many of the medical school applicants out of that pool of people and had them apply to PA school that they would likely be accepted at a greater rate than those other PA applicants. Across the board, the caliber of people I have met in both PA school and medical school is about exactly the same. The main difference is that there were a few people in PA school "pulling up the rear", and there simply aren't these same low caliber people in medical school. The bell curve for both groups basically fits right on top of the other, but the outliers tend to be more prevelant in PA programs. PA schools are not nearly as competitive as they wer when I went in 95. Back then, it was common to have 1000 applicants for every 50 seats. Now my alma matter is lucky to get 300 applicants for the same number of seats. And medical school applications are much more rigorous, because you cannot even apply until you have taken the MCAT. PA schools get a higher number of applicants because anyone who has met the basic pre-reqs can apply. That inflates the numbers substantially.
 
Matt makes a good point, the applicant pool is going to vary based on credentials. Obviously there are smart cookies in both PA and med schools, I have no idea how to compare IQ's between the two though, nor do I care to. Either way, to compare Pharm and PA programs is an "apple vs. orange" debate.

To the original poster.. keep your GPA up and get a wide variety of experiences....you'll be a better applicant regardless where you apply.

Matt, I am in the depths of the "Spring" semester at UTMB! Do you remember taking pharm, patient assessment, clinical medicine, and diagnostic methods together? Talk about drinking water from a from a fire extinguisher! Hope your DO program is going well. =)

Monika
 
Hi Monika,

I do remember that semester exquisitely well!! It was very painful. My DO program unfortunately is really tough right now too, but having my PA background has enabled me to do very well. Good luck, and tell my great freind Phyllis Jendrush in student affairs hello.

Matt
 
one point to consider though is that for the programs that require significant medical experience( now maybe 30% of programs, in the good old days 100%) a typical med school student would not make the 1st cut unless they also happen to be medics, nurses, etc which is not true of most.....
 
Very true and a good point EMED. That is why it is like comparing apples and oranges.
 
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Originally posted by PACtoDOC PA schools are not nearly as competitive as they wer when I went in 95. Back then, it was common to have 1000 applicants for every 50 seats. Now my alma matter is lucky to get 300 applicants for the same number of seats.[/B]
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You have any insight as to why the massive drop in applicants?
 
Well sadly enough, the reason for the drop in applicants is the tremendous number of PA schools that have surfaced in the past 10 years. The number has literally quadrupled in that time frame. The other reason is that less people will apply when the standards get more stringent for admission. One really has to ask themself why they would apply for PA school which is basically a 7 year committment including undergrad, when medical school itself is only an 8 year committment including undergrad. And residency pay averages about 40K per year or so, so its not like there is a huge difference between 65K per year starting and 40K starting, knowing that after 3 years of 40K that you will be making twice the PA or more. When PA programs were BS programs and tacked on the last 2 years of PA school to 2 years of rigorous undergrad pre-reqs, it was a much easier decision. For some like me, I really lost no time in school going from PA to physician, but nowadays it would be much less desirable to attend PA school, then figure out that you really wanted to be a doctor. If I were the one in charge of medical education in this country, I would completely reshape the way medicine is taught. I would make the first 2 years of medical school equivilent to PA school, and the last 2 years of medical school would be optional if you wanted to continue to becoming a physician. This will never happen though so I don't know why I am even discussing it. Hope that answers your question some.
 
Originally posted by PACtoDOC
If I were the one in charge of medical education in this country, I would completely reshape the way medicine is taught. I would make the first 2 years of medical school equivilent to PA school, and the last 2 years of medical school would be optional if you wanted to continue to becoming a physician. This will never happen though so I don't know why I am even discussing it. Hope that answers your question some.
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whooo, that sounds good my brother...you got my vote for prez!! =)
 
There are many PA schools that are 4 year programs not 7. Many schools are taking students as undergrads and students are graduating in 4 years with a b.s. and a certificate in PA...personally I think PA masters programs are a waste of time I dont think they have any more advantage over b.s at all and if you ask employers most of them dont care. Being a PA is not about which degree you have its about the wonderful care that PA's provide. And the reasoning for not going to medical school is because PAs want to be PA's because of the profession. Not because we want an easier way into medicine or because we're not good enough for med school, most PA's were actually great candidates for med school before they applied to PA school andddd the ones that make it out of PA school are actually even better. Its not about the time or the challenge or underachieving it is about the PA profession.

in reference to PACtoDOC "The main difference is that there were a few people in PA school "pulling up the rear", and there simply aren't these same low caliber people in medical school." In my experience so far, those people who "pull up the rear" in PA school actually get weeded out of the program by the time we are ready to graduate. Im in my 3rd year of PA school and we had 36 students to begin with, half way through the semester we lost 9 or so people and those were the people who were "pulling up the rear" There are standards ya know that they must fulfilll to make sure that people arent just barely getting by. and Im sure that there are plenty of people that dont make it through medical school either. Im very offended that you would make such a comparison and claim that med students are of higher caliber because like i said before most PA students could have went to med school but didnt. And its comments like that, that cause all the animosity between residents and PA's...
 
Well until you have been through both PA and medical school Jenn, you cannot see things from the real perspective. Just because your program was kind enough to weed out the "stragglers" in the rear, that doesn't mean they all do. Because we all know you cannot rely on the PANCE to weed out applicants. That exam is graded on such a steep curve that it limts its credibility. The statistical probablility of a "straggling" medical school student actually passing all 3 steps of the licensing exam is remote at best. But thanks Jenn for picking out the comments from my original argument that you had issue with, instead of admitting that my comments were pretty damn complimentary to the profession. I made many comparrisons that put PA and medical students on even footing, which pretty much is correct. But you are fooling yourself if you believe that all PA's are in it because of the profession. It is commonplace on this forum to hear people saying that the reason they chose PA school was to practice medicine with less of a time committment in school.

And lastly, we all know that the only difference between a BS program and an MS program is the degree, but they both take primarily DEGREED candidates. It is all but impossible for someone to get into PA school with the bare pre-reqs when schools get mostly degreed applicants. Even in my class of 98, most all the students already had their first degree already, and were just getting a second BS.

I am sorry Jenn if you felt offended by what I said. That was not my intention. PA's are unbelievably valuable professionals and they practice medicine at the highest of levels.
 
The impression that I get is that many PA's go that route instead of med school because they want to spend more time with their patients than doctors do. Also, it is not as common (that I know of) for a PA to be on-call, compared to a doctor. In addition, doctors have to deal with much more paperwork and bookkeeping crap than PA's do. I personally know a few docs and a fair share of them almost wish they would have done PA school instead. I must admit, though, that finishing a PA program in 6-7 years plus much work experience kind of stinks when compared to only an extra year or two to be a doctor (even if you fully want to be a PA still). Just my .02.
 
Coming from a PA who was in a large family practice, I can tell you that it is an urban myth that PA's spend more time with their patients than do doctors. I believe that PA's are often (by virtue of patient-centered training) able to make patients feel like they spent more time with them. And paperwork exists for all providers, as in referrals, script callbacks and reviews, contracts, HnP's, dictations...etc. Don't jump into the PA profession thinking you can spend all this time with your patients and won't have as much paperwork. If anything, you might get delegated much of the paperwork from your doctor. What makes a PA truly different is that they usually don't have to share in the worries of "running the businness", and the night call. But don't kid yourself, there is plenty of work to be done as a PA and sometimes you end up working longer and harder hours than the doctor who's Benz you are financing.
 
what i should have said is that PAs SHOULD be in it to be a PA because the profession needs all the support it can get. Also there are many programs that accept undergrad students, my program concentrates ont he undergrad PAs rather than those with a previous degree and the ones who did have a previous degree ended up having to take pre-reqs anyway putting them in the same boat as the undergrads. I have not seen any person with a previous degree getting priority over an undergrad, in fact all of the PA schools I applied to accepted me right out of high school as did most of my fellow PA students, Im not sure where your comment comes from cause I personally have not heard of this. There are many people in the program who are working on their 2nd degree but I dont thikn they had a better chance simply because of that, I will say one thing though the people who have degrees in other health fields do tend to obviously succeed much easier.

Im sorry that I did not pick out your compliments to the profession I guess i didnt get that vibe from your post.
 
many( most programs) want people with prior experience in health care and many of these folks have prior degrees( at least an a.s. in nursing/paramedic/resp. therapy/etc).I already had a bs and paramedic cert when I applied as did my friend pamatt and we were typical of our classes. I only know of a few programs that will take folks out of high school. I think that is an unfortunate thing for the profession because pa's were designed to be folks with prior medical training who come back for 2 years to get polished, not start from scratch.best of luck in your studies-e
 
Originally posted by PAJenn Im very offended that you would make such a comparison and claim that med students are of higher caliber because like i said before most PA students could have went to med school but didnt. And its comments like that, that cause all the animosity between residents and PA's...
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How do you know if they would have made it into med school? Many people these days get accepted into a PA program right out of hs, not hte case with med schools. You have to finish undergrad, with a good GPA and then get a good score on the MCAT. Don't get me wrong many people are good candidates for medschool out of higschool too, but by the end of undergrad they are even better candidates for an auto repair "specialist"
 
Serg,

You are just choosing to read around the compliments I gave MY FELLOW PA's and STUDENTS. Who are you anyway to judge what I have said, probably having never either completed PA school or medical school? Focus more on your incredibly unreadable rhetoric because it is written statements like yours that make all US REAL PA's cringe. Until you have walked a mile in my shoes, don't take my words out of context for your own ignorant cause. What makes us PA's look bad is when certain sectors of our profession choose to use a yardstick to measure us against physicians. Those who feel the need to measure the difference will always come up short. Grow up and re-read what I wrote originally, and then drop us all a line and tell is just what the f**k crawled up your orifice and made a 90 degree turn to cause you to be so discontent.
 
Alrighty PACtoDOC I think someone needs to relax and pay attention to what is being said and at whom it is being directed. 1) This was in response to what PAJenn said. 2) I'm not comparing PA's and MD's. If you look at what I wrote, I merely described the difference between getting into med school and PA school. These days many people get into PA school out of HS (about half from what i understand) whereas most people going to medschool have to attain a degree and good MCAT scores. In terms of addmissions it is hard to tell whether somebody who had good grades in HS would pull off good enough grades and mcat scores to get into medical school.
 
You are right Serg!!! I misdirected my comments to your quote half-thinking it was you who wrote it. Accept my apology :)
But, where in the hell did you get your numbers about half of all PA's being accepted to programs out of high school? Of the over one hundred programs, I know of less than a handful that do so. Again, thanks for taking the carelessly directed critisism so well even though the bullets actually had someone else's name on them. Guess it has something to do with being in similar med school programs :)

Matt
 
This argument is like comparing sailors with captains. The captain rules on a ship and the sailors follow his instructions. Same goes for the hospital environment. Docs are the bosses and everyone else ..well they make the coffee for us...simple.
 
obvious troll.....any mention of coffee fetching should merit automatic suspension from sdn.....
 
Originally posted by emedpa
obvious troll.....any mention of coffee fetching should merit automatic suspension from sdn.....
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:laugh:
 
Originally posted by Brocnizer2007

Wow, you guys were right about med school being 2:1. I thought it was way higher. for 2001-2002 there were ~34,000 applicants for ~16,000 seats.
Click to expand...

But of course, a 2:1 ratio doesn't mean that 50% of the applicants get in. That would only hold true if every applicant applied to every school (that is, if each school had the opportunity to select from the entire applicant pool).
 
But of course, a 2:1 ratio doesn't mean that 50% of the applicants get in. That would only hold true if every applicant applied to every school (that is, if each school had the opportunity to select from the entire applicant pool).
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Yeah I know this. I was just saying that I thought it was more like 4:1. I had no idea there were 16,000 seats!
 
brocnizer & ItsgavinC unless you guys are looking at different statistics than are posted or are using fuzzy math.

If A=the number of total applicants and B equals the total numer of open spots the B/A *100 equals the percent of applicants which get accepted. So in this case 50%.
 
You are right and wrong at the same time. It all depends on the number of schools you apply too.

If an applicant applies to EVERY medical school then the odds are 50% they will get in.

If another applicant applies to 15 schools then their odds are MUCH less. It is no longer 50%.

Its not FUZZY math...its Simply statistics! Please review it :D
 
is a PA-C degree from community college (associate program) valued equally as a PA-C from master/bachelor programs when applying for jobs? same salary/less?
 
I'm not a PA but my fiancee is and she is looking for jobs. She said the majority want the master/bachelor, hence why she went for that one.

But my experince is limited...I only have a view from one PA. Thats why I look at these posts to learn more about the profession.
 
Ok, I am not going to throw around opinions, but this thread needs some more accurate statistics.

mltakagi, this percentage you are referring is a way to look at it. For most medical school, this statistics ends up being 2%, because on average medical schools receive 5000 applications and about 100 gain acceptance.

The number 50% the people in this forum are throwing around is referring to the fact that most students do not apply only to one school, thus it's not a "real" 2%. You have 2% chance of gaining acceptance to any given school, but the more schools you apply, the higher the chance you will get into ONE school. Assuming this is the case, if one applicant applies to 30 schools, he'd have 50% of getting in ONE school. Since most applicants apply to many schools, it is said that from statistical observation 50% of applicants who applying gain acceptance.

These statistics also cannot be taken blindly. One with 4.0 gpa 43 MCAT with pubs and has a letter of rec from the Pope will have a much higher chance than someone who has 3.3 and 28 MCAT with no pubs. They will not both show 50% chance of getting in. Applying to multiple schools, the one with a 4.0 will probably have 90% of gaining acceptance whereas the 3.3 only has 10%, which averages out to 50%. Thus, it is not true that anyone who applies to medical school has 50% chance.

Finally, just because observational data shows that 50% of those who apply to medical school get in, usually only the people with higher scores/experiences will apply. Thus, if on average only applicants with 3.8 with masters degree apply, you can see how 50% of them gaining acceptance is pretty competitive. Just because 50% applying to Rhodes Scholar gets it doesnt mean it's not competitive, because only the brightest apply in the first place. If a post-bac program show 50% applicants who apply gets in, you must know what scores these people have who apply, because if on average they apply with 3.0 gpa, this means 50% with 3.0 will get in and your chances are higher. If 50% of those with 4.0 gpa get in, then if you apply for this program, your chances are lower.

Statistics is only a useful tool when one doesnt interpret it the wrong way.


Originally posted by mltakagi
brocnizer & ItsgavinC unless you guys are looking at different statistics than are posted or are using fuzzy math.

If A=the number of total applicants and B equals the total numer of open spots the B/A *100 equals the percent of applicants which get accepted. So in this case 50%.
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