Why did you pick a top/ivy school?

[PurpleLove]

If it meant having to work harder?

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[khrisskhoras]

Do you ever stop?

 

[happybluefeet]

I picked my school for the opportunities to learn from experts in the field in many disciplines (both science and non-science), be involved with impactful research, have driven and intelligent peers, and yes, the prestige. I knew it would mean having to work harder, but I felt under-challenged in high school and I wanted to take on this challenge. TBH, I didn't really know what to expect because I went to a relatively non-rigorous high school. I just felt that the experience would be on another academic dimension, and I was excited to try that out.

Nearing graduation, and can say I am absolutely happy with my choice. The experience itself was very meaningful and a terrific learning opportunity. I developed close mentorship relationships with several faculty members who taught me how to do analysis in their fields. Plus, I did well there, and my application cycle went extremely well as a result. Back in high school, I was considering a full tuition scholarship to a state school as an alternative, and can say with great confidence that I am very very happy with my choice. I do not think I would have had as fulfilling of an experience or done as well in med school admissions had I picked my state school. (This is just my personal experience, highly specific to the two schools I was considering. I know this is a hot topic on SDN, so not trying to start a big debate on this.)

However, not everyone had my experience. I have friends who did badly at my college and got low GPAs. For them, they probably would have been better off in terms of med school admissions going to a cheaper school. Going to a top school is kind of a gamble. It can cost you more (depending on your family's finances), and if you do badly, leave you with little options. But if you do well, it can be a huge boost in post-graduate opportunities. To clarify, a boost not because of the name itself (though this does help add legitimacy to your performance), but because of the opportunities that were more easily accessible to you in undergrad. But remember that easily accessible opportunities mean little if you do not take advantage of them.

 

[khrisskhoras]

I picked my school for the opportunities to learn from experts in the field in many disciplines (both science and non-science), be involved with impactful research, have driven and intelligent peers, and yes, the prestige. I knew it would mean having to work harder, but I felt under-challenged in high school and I wanted to take on this challenge. TBH, I didn't really know what to expect because I went to a relatively non-rigorous high school. I just felt that the experience would be on another academic dimension, and I was excited to try that out.

Nearing graduation, and can say I am absolutely happy with my choice. The experience itself was very meaningful and a terrific learning opportunity. I developed close mentorship relationships with several faculty members who taught me how to do analysis in their fields. Plus, I did well there, and my application cycle went extremely well as a result. Back in high school, I was considering a full tuition scholarship to a state school as an alternative, and can say with great confidence that I am very very happy with my choice. I do not think I would have had as fulfilling of an experience or done as well in med school admissions had I picked my state school. (This is just my personal experience, highly specific to the two schools I was considering. I know this is a hot topic on SDN, so not trying to start a big debate on this.)

However, not everyone had my experience. I have friends who did badly at my college and got low GPAs. For them, they probably would have been better off in terms of med school admissions going to a cheaper school. Going to a top school is kind of a gamble. It can cost you more (depending on your family's finances), and if you do badly, leave you with little options. But if you do well, it can be a huge boost in post-graduate opportunities. To clarify, a boost not because of the name itself (though this does help add legitimacy to your performance), but because of the opportunities that were more easily accessible to you in undergrad. But remember that easily accessible opportunities mean little if you do not take advantage of them.

1 profile post no avatar...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i wonderrrrrrr.....

 

[happybluefeet]

1 profile post no avatar...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i wonderrrrrrr.....

Lol well everyone starts somewhere. Been lurking on SDN and finally decided to create an account.

 

[ducksau5]

I picked my school for the opportunities to learn from experts in the field in many disciplines (both science and non-science), be involved with impactful research, have driven and intelligent peers, and yes, the prestige. I knew it would mean having to work harder, but I felt under-challenged in high school and I wanted to take on this challenge. TBH, I didn't really know what to expect because I went to a relatively non-rigorous high school. I just felt that the experience would be on another academic dimension, and I was excited to try that out.

Nearing graduation, and can say I am absolutely happy with my choice. The experience itself was very meaningful and a terrific learning opportunity. I developed close mentorship relationships with several faculty members who taught me how to do analysis in their fields. Plus, I did well there, and my application cycle went extremely well as a result. Back in high school, I was considering a full tuition scholarship to a state school as an alternative, and can say with great confidence that I am very very happy with my choice. I do not think I would have had as fulfilling of an experience or done as well in med school admissions had I picked my state school. (This is just my personal experience, highly specific to the two schools I was considering. I know this is a hot topic on SDN, so not trying to start a big debate on this.)

However, not everyone had my experience. I have friends who did badly at my college and got low GPAs. For them, they probably would have been better off in terms of med school admissions going to a cheaper school. Going to a top school is kind of a gamble. It can cost you more (depending on your family's finances), and if you do badly, leave you with little options. But if you do well, it can be a huge boost in post-graduate opportunities. To clarify, a boost not because of the name itself (though this does help add legitimacy to your performance), but because of the opportunities that were more easily accessible to you in undergrad. But remember that easily accessible opportunities mean little if you do not take advantage of them.

Agree completely. I chose to go to a top school and it has been extremely rewarding. If you can do well at these schools, the sky is the limit with what you can achieve/accomplish.

 

[Narmerguy]

If it meant having to work harder?

It means having to work harder?

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/

http://www.examiner.com/article/gra...ssue-at-harvard-university-and-the-ivy-league

http://tusb.stanford.edu/2010/02/grade_inflation_exists_it_suck.html

It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them.

If you went to MIT or one of the other schools that is known for having a difficult grading scale, that's a different story. They're great schools if you want to be a scientist or engineer, but will make medical school admission a bit more challenging. Since many students don't realize they are going to become physicians until they are a year or more into undergrad, this ends up really shooting some of these kids in the foot.

Anyway, enjoy your meal troll.

 

[mcloaf]

Your whining is tiresome OP.

 

[Euxox]

It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them.

Harvard/Yale/Stanford may give out 40 - 50% As, but the competition there is much stiffer than it is at most state schools. It's definitely a stretch to say that it is easy to get As at Harvard relative to most other schools.

If you read Reaching the Ivory Tower, there is an interesting chapter on grade deflation. The author has a chart of average LSAT vs. Average GPA for about 100 universities and LACs and calculates a grade deflation index for each one. According to him, the most grade deflated schools are, in order, Swarthmore, Williams, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Dartmouth, and Harvard.

 

[Boolean]

Harvard/Yale/Stanford may give out 40 - 50% As, but the competition there is much stiffer than it is at most state schools. It's definitely a stretch to say that it is easy to get As at Harvard relative to most other schools.

I'm on the fence about this one. As others have said, it's more about getting in than actually performing at the school. Most Ivy's are rather grade inflationary.

 

[Euxox]

I'm on the fence about this one. As others have said, it's more about getting in than actually performing at the school. Most Ivy's are rather grade inflationary.

I don't agree. I just updated my last post with more info, so you might want to read that. I really think that grade inflation at Ivy leagues is overblown. At Yale, 95% of students were in the top 10% of their high school class, and even then half of them will graduate with less than a 3.4. From a medical admissions perspective that is a mediocre GPA no matter what school you come from. (Unless it is backed up by an impressive MCAT score.)

 

[Boolean]

I don't agree. I just updated my last post with more info, so you might want to read that.

I'm still on the fence with Harvard. Even Harvard's faculty have noted that their school is rather inflationary. Williams College, Duke, Hopkins, Dartmouth, Princeton, MIT, UChicago, all fairly well known for being grade deflationary. I don't agree with Harvard though, and it seems neither does the school.

 

[Euxox]

I'm still on the fence with Harvard. Even Harvard's faculty have noted that their school is rather inflationary. Williams College, Duke, Hopkins, Dartmouth, Princeton, MIT, UChicago, all fairly well known for being grade deflationary. I don't agree with Harvard though, and it seems neither does the school.

The fact is that grades across the nation have been going up and Harvard has simply been keeping pace. Most of the faculty members complaining about grade inflation are probably thinking back to their own days in college when a 2.5 was considered average even at grade inflated universities. You aren't going to see very many students acknowledging grade inflation because they are more in tune with current (increased) GPA expectations from employers, graduate schools, and so on. And according to the book I mentioned earlier, Harvard is in fact grade deflated in a quantifiable way. Here is an excerpt:



Higher score = more grade deflation.

 

[Mad Jack]

Harvard/Yale/Stanford may give out 40 - 50% As, but the competition there is much stiffer than it is at most state schools. It's definitely a stretch to say that it is easy to get As at Harvard relative to most other schools.

91% of students graduate from Harvard with honors, and their own students, teachers, and administrators openly admit that grade inflation is a problem. Grade inflation is the result of many forces acting together- a school reputation that requires students to do well post graduation, but doing well post graduation requires that students have good grades to begin with, the large effect that student evaluations have when it comes to tenure and promotions, and the influence parental donors can have on teachers and administration among them- that work to warp the grades at Ivies to the point of meaninglessness. I live very close to an Ivy- an interesting experiment might be to have teachers from several other institutions grade 30 papers written by the Ivy's students on the same topic, without knowing what school the papers came from. If the Ivy students were all of exceptional caliber, the results would demonstrate this, as their grades would be universally high.

 

[Euxox]

91% of students graduate from Harvard with honors

I don't know where you got that number, but it's very off. Actually, about 45% of Harvard students graduate cum laude. This may seem a like a lot at first, but when you take into account the fact that >95% of students at Harvard were in the top 10% of their high school class and the average SAT score is ~2300, there are a lot of really bright students that are not graduating with honors. Anyway, it seems that we've hijacked the thread here, so I guess we can discuss this at another time.

 

[Boolean]

I don't know where you got that number, but it's very off. Actually, about 45% of Harvard students graduate cum laude. This may seem a like a lot at first, but when you take into account the fact that >95% of students at Harvard were in the top 10% of their high school class and the average SAT score is ~2300, there are a lot of really bright students that are not graduating with honors. Anyway, it seems that we've hijacked the thread here, so I guess we can discuss this at another time.

The Globe had reported that in 2001, 91 percent of Harvard students graduated with honors, and that about half of all awarded grades were in the A-range. The issue of grade inflation has taken center stage at some of Harvard's peer institutions as well.

 

[Lucca]

I don't know where you got that number, but it's very off. Actually, about 45% of Harvard students graduate cum laude. This may seem a like a lot at first, but when you take into account the fact that >95% of students at Harvard were in the top 10% of their high school class and the average SAT score is ~2300, there are a lot of really bright students that are not graduating with honors. Anyway, it seems that we've hijacked the thread here, so I guess we can discuss this at another time.

The average SAT score for any one of the honors programs here at a non-ivy is about 2200 and most students were in the top 5% of their class. Most of is were cross admits at ivies and top 20s and our average gpa here is considerably lower than equivalent programs at ivy institutions with similar stats.

 

[Euxox]

The Globe had reported that in 2001, 91 percent of Harvard students graduated with honors, and that about half of all awarded grades were in the A-range. The issue of grade inflation has taken center stage at some of Harvard's peer institutions as well.

Okay, I looked into it, and that was true at a certain point, but in 2002, the number of people that could graduate with honors was capped at 50%. Again, it is mostly faculty members that are concerned about grade inflation, and not students. Students would have reason to be concerned as well if As were being given out so freely that their value was being diluted. It looks like that is pretty much what happened with the Latin honors policy at Harvard back when they were giving 90% of students honors. But you won't see Harvard students complaining about grade inflation because the fact of the matter is that they do not have a significant amount of grade inflation.

 

[Euxox]

The average SAT score for any one of the honors programs here at a non-ivy is about 2200 and most students were in the top 5% of their class. Most of is were cross admits at ivies and top 20s and our average gpa here is considerably lower than equivalent programs at ivy institutions with similar stats.

You are mixing and matching here. First Mad Jack says that only 10% of the class gets As, and then you say that students in the honors college are just as competitive as Ivy League students. Well the honors college =/= the entire class. I'm guessing that out of the Honors college students in a given class, it's more like 30% - 40% getting As.

 

[ranson]

Student's at Ivy's were the top 10% of their HS class, while student's at most state universities were the top 99% of their class. lol. It isn't easier to earn A's at Harvard. If you take the average state university student and put him/her at an Ivy, that person will graduate with a 2.7 GPA or equavialent of a B-. If you take the average Harvard student and put him/her at a state university that person will graduate with a GPA of 3.7.

I also know several people who transferred to an Ivy league school, and their GPA was lower than what they had at the state school.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't know where you got that number, but it very off. Actually, about 45% of Harvard students graduate cum laude. This may seem a like a lot at first, but when you take into account the fact that >95% of students at Harvard were in the top 10% of their high school class and the average SAT score is ~2300, there are a lot of really bright students that are not graduating with honors. Anyway, it seems that we've hijacked the thread here, so I guess we can discuss this at another time.

I got the number from the Harvard Crimson article, which based its data on a 2001 examination by the Boston Globe. More recently (2013), the Dean of Harvard himself admitted that the most common grades awarded to students were straight As and that the average of the college as a whole was an A-. Below is a Harvard student's perspective on it, of which I can find you many more as I have done for this topic in the past. Hence why I would like to speak to someone in my local Ivy about getting a set of papers for a few outside professors to grade, to see if it is the students or inflation.

http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/03/the-truth-about-harvard/303726/

 

[Lucca]

You are mixing and matching here. First you say that only 10% of the class gets As, and then you say that students in the honors college are just as competitive as Ivy League students. Well the honors college =/= the entire class. I'm guessing that out of the Honors college students in a given class, it's more like 30% getting As.

This is true in Honors courses that are inflated because it doesn't make sense to curve a class of students who are all scoring very well. It is not true in the majority of non-honors courses you have to take however and if its a course with a high percentage of honors students then it becomes much harder to get an A because of the curve.

I agree with you that inflation at most top institutions doesnt matter because most of those kids would have done very well anywhere they went. I also agree with you that Harvard's inflation is not sinificant in spite of whatever their faculty and administration might say. Grades are meaningless (mostly) and harvard is already cutthroat as it is (from what I've heard from my two friends attending there and another at MIT on the other side of mass ave) so it doesnt make sense to hold them up to some arbitrary standard.

 

[Narmerguy]

Harvard/Yale/Stanford may give out 40 - 50% As, but the competition there is much stiffer than it is at most state schools. It's definitely a stretch to say that it is easy to get As at Harvard relative to most other schools.

If you read Reaching the Ivory Tower, there is an interesting chapter on grade deflation. The author has a chart of average LSAT vs. Average GPA for about 100 universities and LACs and calculates a grade deflation index for each one. According to him, the most grade deflated schools are, in order, Swarthmore, Williams, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Dartmouth, and Harvard.

I don't agree. I just updated my last post with more info, so you might want to read that. I really think that grade inflation at Ivy leagues is overblown. At Yale, 95% of students were in the top 10% of their high school class, and even then half of them will graduate with less than a 3.4. From a medical admissions perspective that is a mediocre GPA no matter what school you come from. (Unless it is backed up by an impressive MCAT score.)

This assumes that LSAT is an "unbiased" indicator of academic merit. That students from Harvard can outperform their peers with similar grades does not suggest that the Harvard students have greater academic merit.

But all of this aside, the trouble with grade inflation is that it first requires people to agree on what grades are supposed to measure. Before you can say too many students from some schools have certain grades, what are those grades supposed to measure? Is it competence? Is it performance relative to one's peers? Is it effort? Either one of these perspectives would imply different things with respect to the extent (or lack) of grade inflation at various schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

You are mixing and matching here. First Mad Jack says that only 10% of the class gets As, and then you say that students in the honors college are just as competitive as Ivy League students. Well the honors college =/= the entire class. I'm guessing that out of the Honors college students in a given class, it's more like 30% - 40% getting As.

Honors classes at my state U are eight thesis based courses you take in addition to your major. You must still complete all regular courses for your major as well, and thus must compete and maintain your As along the same curve as everyone else to keep your scholarship and priority registration rights.

 

[Euxox]

Honors classes at my state U are eight thesis based courses you take in addition to your major. You must still complete all regular courses for your major as well, and thus must compete and maintain your As along the same curve as everyone else to keep your scholarship and priority registration rights.

No, what I'm saying is that the reason state schools only give out 10% As is that the student body is less competitive than it is at Ivy leagues. But if you just look at honors students, they are often just as studious as Ivy league students. Therefore, even in a non-honors course that only gives out 10% As, I am guessing that a very large fraction of those As are going to honors students. I would guess that something like 30% of the honors students are getting As, and if true, this would show that Ivy league schools are not grade inflated for giving out similar numbers of As to a similar batch of students. The student earns the A, not the name of the school.

 

[Mad Jack]

No, what I'm saying is that the reason state schools only give out 10% As is that the student body is less competitive than it is at Ivy leagues. But if you just look at honors students, they are often just as studious as Ivy league students. Therefore, even in a non-honors course that only gives out 10% As, I am guessing that a very large fraction of those As are going to honors students. I would guess that something like 30% of the honors students are getting As, and if true, this would show that Ivy league schools are not grade inflated for giving out similar numbers of As to a similar batch of students. The student earns the A, not the name of the school.

The school system has a fixed curve that they adopted to prevent grade inflation. A given class could have every student score 85%+ on every exam, but due to the curve, only 20 students out of a 200 student class would be allowed to get As.

 

[Euxox]

The school system has a fixed curve that they adopted to prevent grade inflation. A given class could have every student score 85%+ on every exam, but due to the curve, only 20 students out of a 200 student class would be allowed to get As.

Fixed curves are not exclusive to state schools. I go to a top 20 private school and in one of our intro science classes a few years back, the average score was a 96. That ended up curving to a B-. So a 98 (which you could get by missing a single negative sign) was a B+. People were not happy about that. Most HYPSM intro classes (especially STEM classes) are also graded on a fixed curve.

Second, when is the last time that a class of 200 students managed an average of 85%+ on an exam? It has only happened once in the past four years at my school. And that was just one exam. Forget about a class of 200 managing an 85% across an entire course. It's not a realistic concern. Fixed curves very rarely end up curving anyone down.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Student's at Ivy's were the top 10% of their HS class, while student's at most state universities were the top 99% of their class. lol. It isn't easier to earn A's at Harvard. If you take the average state university student and put him/her at an Ivy, that person will graduate with a 2.7 GPA or equavialent of a B-. If you take the average Harvard student and put him/her at a state university that person will graduate with a GPA of 3.7.

I request your evidence for this assertion.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

No, what I'm saying is that the reason state schools only give out 10% As is that the student body is less competitive than it is at Ivy leagues. But if you just look at honors students, they are often just as studious as Ivy league students. Therefore, even in a non-honors course that only gives out 10% As, I am guessing that a very large fraction of those As are going to honors students. I would guess that something like 30% of the honors students are getting As, and if true, this would show that Ivy league schools are not grade inflated for giving out similar numbers of As to a similar batch of students. The student earns the A, not the name of the school.

Fixed curves are not exclusive to state schools. I go to a top 20 private school and in one of our intro science classes a few years back, the average score was a 96. That ended up curving to a B-. So a 98 (which you could get by missing a single negative sign) was a B+. People were not happy about that. Most HYPSM intro classes (especially STEM classes) are also graded on a fixed curve.

Second, when is the last time that a class of 200 student managed an average of 85%+ on an exam? It has only happened once in the past four years at my school. It's not a realistic concern.

@Euxox ... I wonder... What is your end game? Do you envision a method for comparing GPAs based on the competitiveness at an applicant's undergraduate institution?

I always wonder why people from Ivys/top-20 post about this subject. Do you believe you wouldn't have had to work as hard at a state school to perform the same academically? Do you believe your peers at your Ivy/top-20 face a disadvantage in the medical school admissions process?

Edit: typo.

 

[Syndicate]

All of these threads regarding undergraduate prestige/rankings come down to two sides arguing an useless argument:

1. State schoolers jealous of kids from top 20s bc for whatever reason (academics, finances, etc), you couldn't attend a top 20 yourself.

2. Top 20 kids trying to justify their low GPAs compared to state schoolers by asserting that their school adds brownie points to their GPA.

This is getting old.

 

[Mad Jack]

Fixed curves are not exclusive to state schools. I go to a top 20 private school and in one of our intro science classes a few years back, the average score was a 96. That ended up curving to a B-. So a 98 (which you could get by missing a single negative sign) was a B+. People were not happy about that. Most HYPSM intro classes (especially STEM classes) are also graded on a fixed curve.

Second, when is the last time that a class of 200 students managed an average of 85%+ on an exam? It has only happened once in the past four years at my school. And that was just one exam. Forget about a class of 200 managing an 85% across an entire course. It's not a realistic concern.

Yet at Harvard nearly every student is landing As and A-s.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

All of these threads regarding undergraduate prestige/rankings come down to two sides arguing an useless argument:

1. State schoolers jealous of kids from top 20s bc for whatever reason (academics, finances, etc), you couldn't attend a top 20 yourself.

2. Top 20 kids trying to justify their low GPAs compared to state schoolers by asserting that their school adds brownie points to their GPA.

This is getting old.

I think it's important to talk about, but I understand your frustration.

Many of us are, after all, going to be at medical schools as students and eventually as faculty with our own thoughts about and input in the admissions process. It will matter then that we understand the ideas of our colleagues with whom we disagree. This is why I continue to talk about it.

 

[Euxox]

@Euxox ... I wonder... What is your end game? Do you envision a method for equalizing GPAs based on the competitiveness at an applicant's undergraduate institution?

No, I think the current GPA + MCAT system works just fine.

I always wonder why people from Ivys/top-20 post about this subject. Do you believe you wouldn't have had to work as hard at a state school to perform the same academically? Do you believe your peers at your Ivy/top-20 face a disadvantage in the medical school admissions process?

No, I don't think doing well at a state school is any easier, and I don't think other top 20 students face a disadvantage in the admissions process (for those of us with low GPAs, we have the MCAT to make it up). But, @Mad Jack is saying psssh, getting As at Harvard is easy, and that really irritates me. We have to work hard for our grades here and I hate it when other people discount all of our effort just based on the name of the school. And yes, I know it goes both ways. If I ever see an Ivy leaguer mocking a state school student, I will be there to back up the state school student.

 

[XmedBarney]

I always wonder why people from Ivys/top-20 post about this subject. Do you believe you wouldn't have had to work as hard at a state school to perform the same academically? Do you believe your peers at your Ivy/top-20 face a disadvantage in the medical school admissions process?

Edit: typo.

Yes and Yes.

Simply put, Buyer's remorse

 

[Euxox]

Yes and Yes.

Simply put, Buyer's remorse

Automatically assuming that anyone who attends private school regrets it and has some kind of inferiority complex? Again, there is a lot of anti-private school sentiment on these forums. No, I am not remorseful about choosing to go to a private school, nor will I ever be.

 

[Mad Jack]

No, I think the current GPA + MCAT system works just fine.


No, I don't think doing well at a state school is any easier, and I don't think other top 20 students face a disadvantage in the admissions process (for those of us with low GPAs, we have the MCAT to make it up). But, @Mad Jack is saying psssh, getting As at Harvard is easy, and that really irritates me. We have to work hard for our grades here and I hate it when other people discount all of our effort just based on the name of the school. And yes, I know it goes both ways. If I ever see an Ivy leaguer mocking a state school student, I will be there to back up the state school student.

I'm bringing up a very particular set of schools- top 20 schools that are known for grade inflation. There are plenty of difficult schools in the top 20 when it comes to landing As- Caltech, Princeton, University of Chicago, and MIT come to mind immediately. Their students are of similar caliber to Harvard or Yale, so why the grade disparity?

 

[Ace-Co-A]

No, I don't think doing well at a state school is any easier, and I don't think other top 20 students face a disadvantage in the admissions process (for those of us with low GPAs, we have the MCAT to make it up). But, @Mad Jack is saying psssh, getting As at Harvard is easy, and that really irritates me. We have to work hard for our grades here and I hate it when other people discount all of our effort just based on the name of the school. And yes, I know it goes both ways. If I ever see an Ivy leaguer mocking a state school student, I will be there to back up the state school student.

Thanks for clarifying.

Right, well the other side of the coin - as you mention - is what annoys state-schoolers. Actually I think Ivy/top-20 folks do have a point in saying that the competition is lower and that should be a consideration in the admissions process. The concern of state school people is that some of the Ivy/top-2o folks seem to think that state school people shouldn't really be considered for medical school or you just discount us immediately when we say where we're from. This happens a lot - but it is not the majority, I think.

In large part (speaking from experience at interviews and the like), Ivy/top-20 people seem to understand that if you're good enough to interview for medical school, then you probably did something right and they show respect regardless of where you went to school. But it is unacceptable and wrong to argue that either state schoolers or Ivy/top-20s don't work hard in undergrad. @Mad Jack

Another reason that I think there is room for equal-ish footing for amount of work in undergrad is not mentioned frequently enough. I think you pretty much have to work hard in your classes to do well on the MCAT. I have a hard time believing how someone could slack off in all the pre-requisites and still get it together in time for the MCAT.

Anywho, just some thoughts... I've seen your posts around. You seem like a good poster. (and i just remembered that I tagged you as a new friend in the C/O 2018 thread, so there's that!)

Edit: changed language of post

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Yes and Yes.

Simply put, Buyer's remorse

I don't really understand this post. Why does it link to @Euxox ? Are you a Ivy/top-20 person or a state schooler? Or somewhere in between?

 

[Syndicate]

I think it's important to talk about, but I understand your frustration.

Many of us are, after all, going to be at medical schools as students and eventually as faculty with our own thoughts about and input in the admissions process. It will matter then that we understand the ideas of our colleagues with whom we disagree. This is why I continue to talk about it.

I understand and agree. But I think it's safe to say that nobody knows how undergrad name/prestige plays in med school admissions since we are not adcom and won't be adcoms till at least 20 more years probably. It's useless to argue about something that we have little knowledge over and over again when there is no clear answer. The landscape for med school admissions will most likely have changed 20 years from now once we become faculty, when this conversation actually has substance

 

[Ace-Co-A]

I understand and agree. But I think it's safe to say that nobody knows how undergrad name/prestige plays in med school admissions since we are not adcom and won't be adcoms till at least 20 more years probably. It's useless to argue about something that we have little knowledge over and over again when there is no clear answer. The landscape for med school admissions will most likely have changed 20 years from now once we become faculty, when this conversation actually has substance

I don't think it's true to say that "nobody knows how undergrad name/prestige plays in med school admissions since we are not adcom". We have some hints from what LizzyM, Goro, Catalystik, gyngyn, etc. post.

Prestige is a factor, but lower on the list than GPA, MCAT, ECs, research, etc.

 

[XmedBarney]

Automatically assuming that anyone who attends private school regrets it and has some kind of inferiority complex? Again, there is a lot of anti-private school sentiment on these forums. No, I am not remorseful about choosing to go to a private school, nor will I ever be.

Edit: It was really a jab at the OP. Of course the vast majority of private school students are absolutely delighted, but some certainly aren't even if they don't say it outright; I felt that perhaps this thread was a result of that.

 

[XmedBarney]

I don't really understand this post. Why does it link to @Euxox ? Are you a Ivy/top-20 person or a state schooler? Or somewhere in between?

That quoting thing is a technical error. As for me, I go to a grade deflating top-20, but it get's annoying to see so many of my peers make these sort of threads.

 

[Lucca]

That quoting thing is a technical difficulty. As for me, I go to a grade deflating top-20, but it get's annoying to see so many of my peers make these sort of threads.

I don't go to one of their schools but I can understand their stress. We just enjoy feeding this debate over and over again because everyone gets very personally involved in the argument. I guess people feel the need to defend their choices, institution, etc.

Undergrad should just be Pass/Fail.

*inb4flame*

 

[Optimus-Prime]

lots of speculation, no first hand experience?

 

[PurpleLove]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/

http://www.examiner.com/article/gra...ssue-at-harvard-university-and-the-ivy-league

http://tusb.stanford.edu/2010/02/grade_inflation_exists_it_suck.html

It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them.

If you went to MIT or one of the other schools that is known for having a difficult grading scale, that's a different story. They're great schools if you want to be a scientist or engineer, but will make medical school admission a bit more challenging. Since many students don't realize they are going to become physicians until they are a year or more into undergrad, this ends up really shooting some of these kids in the foot.

Anyway, enjoy your meal troll.

Someone got butthurt. I'm only addressing UChicago-like hardness. 10 percent get As?..... So what if the whole class is not as smart?

 

[PurpleLove]

Anyways, I just feel down about my choice in colleges. Don't think he has much more to offer.

 

[bambam92]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/

http://www.examiner.com/article/gra...ssue-at-harvard-university-and-the-ivy-league

http://tusb.stanford.edu/2010/02/grade_inflation_exists_it_suck.html

It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them.

If you went to MIT or one of the other schools that is known for having a difficult grading scale, that's a different story. They're great schools if you want to be a scientist or engineer, but will make medical school admission a bit more challenging. Since many students don't realize they are going to become physicians until they are a year or more into undergrad, this ends up really shooting some of these kids in the foot.

Anyway, enjoy your meal troll.

lol. I go to a state U, and for you to make the assumption that once you get into Harvard the A's will just rain down on you is grossly assumptious. Yes, people frequently harp that such a high percentage of students graduate with honors at Harvard, but did it ever occur to you that they are recruiting the most intelligent individuals in the nation, and world for that matter? Maybe thats why more students graduate with honors out of Harvard than at Po-dunk state U. And before you jump down my throat about how tons of kids at state U could have gone to ivy's but they chose state U for financial reasons..please, not everyone at the ivy's is the stereotypical legacy thats parents donated a building. If one is that talented or intelligent the ivy's will find a way to enable you to attend their institution, and if this means full rides-- it does happen.

You saying flat out , "It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them." LMAO. And what data or statistical evidence do you have to make this statement? Correlation isn't causation. I would love to see you say this to an adcom, you will get FLAMED. Again I go to a state U, and yes the averages in our sciences are low here…50's-60's actually on every exam, and there is no scale. But I would never say I feel its harder for me then if I was at an Ivy. Those schools are packed with 2200 +sat's and valedictorians, all competing for grades. At state U this just isn't the case--hurt to burst any bubbles but lets get real. I am a junior, and have worked my ass off for my 3.8+ at my state U, but would I would never say, "jeesh, could've breezed to a 3.8 if I was just at damn Harvard." That seems to be your general attitude, but no one is going to feel bad for you cause you go to a state U. In fact most people will view going to a state U as being easier to attain a high GPA, not necessarily the truth, but a definite stereotype. Just gets annoying seeing people who don't attend, or very likely couldn't even attend a certain school act as if they are so in the "know" regarding the institution.

 

[PurpleLove]

I'm not saying that isn't true. It is, you have to work to get As. But unless they give out no As, there's no way they make the material as hard. Professors have to make exams ridiculous here, or else there would be all 100's.

lol. I go to a state U, and for you to make the assumption that once you get into Harvard the A's will just rain down on you is grossly assumptious. Yes, people frequently harp that such a high percentage of students graduate with honors at Harvard, but did it ever occur to you that they are recruiting the most intelligent individuals in the nation, and world for that matter? Maybe thats why more students graduate with honors out of Harvard than at Po-dunk state U. And before you jump down my throat about how tons of kids at state U could have gone to ivy's but they chose state U for financial reasons..please, not everyone at the ivy's is the stereotypical legacy thats parents donated a building. If one is that talented or intelligent the ivy's will find a way to enable you to attend their institution, and if this means full rides-- it does happen.

You saying flat out , "It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them." LMAO. And what data or statistical evidence do you have to make this statement? Correlation isn't causation. I would love to see you say this to an adcom, you will get FLAMED. Again I go to a state U, and yes the averages in our sciences are low here…50's-60's actually on every exam, and there is no scale. But I would never say I feel its harder for me then if I was at an Ivy. Those schools are packed with 2200 +sat's and valedictorians, all competing for grades. At state U this just isn't the case--hurt to burst any bubbles but lets get real. I am a junior, and have worked my ass off for my 3.8+ at my state U, but would I would never say, "jeesh, could've breezed to a 3.8 if I was just at damn Harvard." That seems to be your general attitude, but no one is going to feel bad for you cause you go to a state U. In fact most people will view going to a state U as being easier to attain a high GPA, not necessarily the truth, but a definite stereotype. Just gets annoying seeing people who don't attend, or very likely couldn't even attend a certain school act as if they are so in the "know" regarding the institution.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for clarifying.

Right, well the other side of the coin - as you mention - is what annoys state-schoolers. Actually I think Ivy/top-20 folks do have a point in saying that the competition is lower and that should be a consideration in the admissions process. The concern of state school people is that some of the Ivy/top-2o folks seem to think that state school people shouldn't really be considered for medical school or you just discount us immediately when we say where we're from. This happens a lot - but it is not the majority, I think.

In large part (speaking from experience at interviews and the like), Ivy/top-20 people seem to understand that if you're good enough to interview for medical school, then you probably did something right and they show respect regardless of where you went to school. But it is unacceptable and wrong to argue that either state schoolers or Ivy/top-20s don't work hard in undergrad. @Mad Jack

Another reason that I think there is room for equal-ish footing for amount of work in undergrad is not mentioned frequently enough. I think you pretty much have to work hard in your classes to do well on the MCAT. I have a hard time believing how someone could slack off in all the pre-requisites and still get it together in time for the MCAT.

Anywho, just some thoughts... I've seen your posts around. You seem like a good poster. (and i just remembered that I tagged you as a new friend in the C/O 2018 thread, so there's that!)

Edit: changed language of post

You should know me better than that Ace, I'm just having some fun.

lol. I go to a state U, and for you to make the assumption that once you get into Harvard the A's will just rain down on you is grossly assumptious. Yes, people frequently harp that such a high percentage of students graduate with honors at Harvard, but did it ever occur to you that they are recruiting the most intelligent individuals in the nation, and world for that matter? Maybe thats why more students graduate with honors out of Harvard than at Po-dunk state U. And before you jump down my throat about how tons of kids at state U could have gone to ivy's but they chose state U for financial reasons..please, not everyone at the ivy's is the stereotypical legacy thats parents donated a building. If one is that talented or intelligent the ivy's will find a way to enable you to attend their institution, and if this means full rides-- it does happen.

You saying flat out , "It's easier to get As at an Ivy than my local state U, where teachers are apathetic, lectures contain around 200 students, and courses are curved to have 10% Fs, 25% Ds, 30% Cs, 25% Bs, and 10% As. At Harvard, pay your fees and you'll get your Bs, work a bit and you'll score As- the hardest part is getting in. At a lot of state universities, you have to excel to get an A, because the teachers only hand them out to students that earn them." LMAO. And what data or statistical evidence do you have to make this statement? Correlation isn't causation. I would love to see you say this to an adcom, you will get FLAMED. Again I go to a state U, and yes the averages in our sciences are low here…50's-60's actually on every exam, and there is no scale. But I would never say I feel its harder for me then if I was at an Ivy. Those schools are packed with 2200 +sat's and valedictorians, all competing for grades. At state U this just isn't the case--hurt to burst any bubbles but lets get real. I am a junior, and have worked my ass off for my 3.8+ at my state U, but would I would never say, "jeesh, could've breezed to a 3.8 if I was just at damn Harvard." That seems to be your general attitude, but no one is going to feel bad for you cause you go to a state U. In fact most people will view going to a state U as being easier to attain a high GPA, not necessarily the truth, but a definite stereotype. Just gets annoying seeing people who don't attend, or very likely couldn't even attend a certain school act as if they are so in the "know" regarding the institution.