Why did you pick a top/ivy school?

[CollegeGirl94]

Yes, most other schools in Chicago/Illinois aren't as hard as UChicago. Suck it up or transfer....

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[MDforMee]

Uh no I think they get defensive when you assume their schools are mediocre without any supporting evidence other than it's not a "top school." You know what they say about those who assume...

I am going to start tutoring and providing grad school prep to low, unranked state school kids, soon.

I attended this same mediocre state school, but I also attended UCLA. A problem I've seen is that students get the big fish in a little pond mentality when they earn ridiculous gpa's at mediocre schools. I was one. I earned a 4.0 there, then got punished when I went to UCLA, at first.

All I'm saying is that gpa's aren't the same at every school and for every major. It's a ridiculous pretense and people are cheating the system by going to easy schools and majoring in easy subjects on purpose.

 

[PurpleLove]

Nice. So why aren't you at Harvard? Or better yet why can't you get an A to save your life? Maybe if you spent less time doing your friends HW and showing everyone how smart you are, you'd have the grades to back up your superiority complex. #JusSayin

Uh... I got 3 As 1 B last quarter.
I'll have a 3.5 by the end of the year, higher by the end of junior, and I will get into medical school....
What's your point? I'm complaining because I won't get in when less intelligent people will? No, because I will.

EDIT: SCIENCE GPA. 3.8-3.9 cum.

 

[deleted407021]

I am going to start tutoring and providing grad school prep to low, unranked state school kids, soon.

I attended this same mediocre state school, but I also attended UCLA. A problem I've seen is that students get the big fish in a little pond mentality when they earn ridiculous gpa's at mediocre schools. I was one. I earned a 4.0 there, then got punished when I went to UCLA, at first.

All I'm saying is that gpa's aren't the same at every school and for every major. It's a ridiculous pretense and people are cheating the system by going to easy schools and majoring in easy subjects on purpose.

Ah. You again. You were the poster trying to convince everyone that non science majors shouldn't go to medical school, right?

 

[PurpleLove]

I am going to start tutoring and providing grad school prep to low, unranked state school kids, soon.

I attended this same mediocre state school, but I also attended UCLA. A problem I've seen is that students get the big fish in a little pond mentality when they earn ridiculous gpa's at mediocre schools. I was one. I earned a 4.0 there, then got punished when I went to UCLA, at first.

All I'm saying is that gpa's aren't the same at every school and for every major. It's a ridiculous pretense and people are cheating the system by going to easy schools and majoring in easy subjects on purpose.

AKA Most undergrads on this site.

 

[deleted407021]

Uh... I got 3 As 1 B last quarter.
I'll have a 3.5 by the end of the year, higher by the end of junior, and I will get into medical school....
What's your point? I'm complaining because I won't get in when less intelligent people will? No, because I will.

Streampaw! I called it!

 

[Gifted Hands]

Let the OP troll away. She'll keep whining and saying ridiculous things until people get bored with her.

For everyone else, I'm so happy to say that once you get to medical school, much like your MCAT score and GPA, no one gives a crap. You are so knee deep in work that no one has time to think about who comes from where. You are all in it together. I'm sure insecure people like the OP exist that must sleep with their top 10 diploma snuggled in their arms to reaffirm that they are special... But they are far and few between.

 

[Boolean]

AKA Most undergrads on this site.

Ah yes, generalize a group you are a part of. Brilliant idea.

 

[PurpleLove]

Let the OP troll away. She'll keep whining and saying ridiculous things until people get bored with her.

For everyone else, I'm so happy to say that once you get to medical school, much like your MCAT score and GPA, no one gives a crap. You are so knee deep in work that no one has time to think about who comes from where. You are all in it together. I'm sure insecure people like the OP exist that must sleep with their top 10 diploma snuggled in their arms to reaffirm that they are special... But they are far and few between.

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

 

[Gifted Hands]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

There ya go! Dream big!

 

[XmedBarney]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

Hardly, The pond is the USMLE and when you get there we'll talk.

 

[deleted407021]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

And the killer whale of an attending you piss off one day with your asinine blithering and superiority complex will be much bigger.

 

[Oso]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Academically it is the best equalizer. You can compare students from the same school that both got As, people who are of the same SES to one another, those who went to different schools but had the same grades, etc. No tool is perfect, but much like with LizzyM scores in regard to admission, it is the best tool we've got.

Well yeah of course, that's what it's designed to do. Except two people are never alike, and their MCAT will mean different things even though they got the same score - even if they go to the same school, have the same SES, and got the same grades. And unless you're a well-off Asian male from California attending Berkeley, you can't say "OMG people are so dramatic, stop complaining. The MCAT is there for a reason." Each one of the factors you listed out isn't a huge factor on its own. There are plenty of people who get dinged left and right by factors that are out of their control by the virtue of being born into a certain category. That is ridiculous. When you add all those minor inconveniences together, it does become a huge disadvantage. After all those factors, you still have to deal with all the other factors everyone else has to deal with. By the same token, some people are given boosts by the virtue of being born into other categories. So while you may find it annoying that people complain, you should consider that some have literally every one of these factors working against them (starting from HS to college admissions). People can complain if they want.

By factors I mean state of residency, race, etc

 

[MDforMee]

Hardly, The pond is the USMLE and when you get there we'll talk.

Big pun hit you with the big guns

 

[Dwan]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

Unfortunately, your low-tier med school will consist of mostly people from top 20 UG schools like U-Chicago, most likely with GPAs very similar to those at high-tier schools. Also, the equalizer (step 1) is pretty consistent on average among all schools. If you wanna ensure that you crush the competition, you may wanna try high school again.

 

[Mad Jack]

You get the hardest of the hard.

I bet you do

 

[Mad Jack]

Well yeah of course, that's what it's designed to do. Except two people are never alike, and their MCAT will mean different things even though they got the same score - even if they go to the same school, have the same SES, and got the same grades. And unless you're a well-off Asian male from California attending Berkeley, you can't say "OMG people are so dramatic, stop complaining. The MCAT is there for a reason." Each one of the factors you listed out isn't a huge factor on its own. There are plenty of people who get dinged left and right by factors that are out of their control by the virtue of being born into a certain category. That is ridiculous. When you add all those minor inconveniences together, it does become a huge disadvantage. After all those factors, you still have to deal with all the other factors everyone else has to deal with. By the same token, some people are given boosts by the virtue of being born into other categories. So while you may find it annoying that people complain, you should consider that some have literally every one of these factors working against them (starting from HS to college admissions). People can complain if they want.

By factors I mean state of residency, race, etc

I guess I just accepted that life is an unfair ***** a long time ago and complaining doesn't do a damn thing to change it. Part of my disdain for the complainers on the forum comes from the fact that I did have everything working against me and still succeeded, so I look at other people's complaints and am like, "dude, wut, I did fine." That and the general vibe I get from a lot of kids in my generation or younger that are clearly just throwing hissy fits because they've been told they were special and given trophies all their life and then, when it came down to it, they couldn't hack their grades or the MCAT and they can't handle that they just aren't all that smart or special. Entitlement tears are my favorite tears.

Maybe that's why I love threads like these. A lot of kids going to these schools feel that they should have a spot in medical school guaranteed by virtue of going to Harvard/Yale/Columbia/whatever. Then they get all upset that, oh teh noes, they don't just get an acceptance handed to them because of their previously exceptional high school performance. Their dreams of being entitled to attend a top 20 medical school are obliterated by the reality of their poor grades/low MCAT/lack of interviewing skills. It's a beautiful thing, watching that sense of entitlement melt away in a fit of rage and butthurt.

 

[Oso]

It's a beautiful thing, watching that sense of entitlement melt away in a fit of rage and butthurt.

Laughed out loud and scared my dog.

But yeah, good post. I'm sick of people whining and complaining about how it's just not fair. Oh well guyz, that's lyfe. Accept that the world doesn't owe you anything and move on. Threads like this one are just so annoying and pointless.

 

[sourdoughllama]

I guess I just accepted that life is an unfair ***** a long time ago and complaining doesn't do a damn thing to change it. Part of my disdain for the complainers on the forum comes from the fact that I did have everything working against me and still succeeded, so I look at other people's complaints and am like, "dude, wut, I did fine." That and the general vibe I get from a lot of kids in my generation or younger that are clearly just throwing hissy fits because they've been told they were special and given trophies all their life and then, when it came down to it, they couldn't hack their grades or the MCAT and they can't handle that they just aren't all that smart or special. Entitlement tears are my favorite tears.

Maybe that's why I love threads like these. A lot of kids going to these schools feel that they should have a spot in medical school guaranteed by virtue of going to Harvard/Yale/Columbia/whatever. Then they get all upset that, oh teh noes, they don't just get an acceptance handed to them because of their previously exceptional high school performance. Their dreams of being entitled to attend a top 20 medical school are obliterated by the reality of their poor grades/low MCAT/lack of interviewing skills. It's a beautiful thing, watching that sense of entitlement melt away in a fit of rage and butthurt.

I disagree with a couple of things, but I can respect that logic

 

[moop]

I guess I just accepted that life is an unfair ***** a long time ago and complaining doesn't do a damn thing to change it. Part of my disdain for the complainers on the forum comes from the fact that I did have everything working against me and still succeeded, so I look at other people's complaints and am like, "dude, wut, I did fine." That and the general vibe I get from a lot of kids in my generation or younger that are clearly just throwing hissy fits because they've been told they were special and given trophies all their life and then, when it came down to it, they couldn't hack their grades or the MCAT and they can't handle that they just aren't all that smart or special. Entitlement tears are my favorite tears.

Maybe that's why I love threads like these. A lot of kids going to these schools feel that they should have a spot in medical school guaranteed by virtue of going to Harvard/Yale/Columbia/whatever. Then they get all upset that, oh teh noes, they don't just get an acceptance handed to them because of their previously exceptional high school performance. Their dreams of being entitled to attend a top 20 medical school are obliterated by the reality of their poor grades/low MCAT/lack of interviewing skills. It's a beautiful thing, watching that sense of entitlement melt away in a fit of rage and butthurt.

Well, good thing there's still way more of us who make it over those who don't, and we're not anywhere close to being overtaken by the "unentitled." Entitlement successes are my favorite successes, and we'll continue to get a lot of them. peace

 

[DermViser]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

 

[mcloaf]

I'll make sure to go to a low tier MS so I can be the big fish in a little pond.

No you won't. You're struggling now in college but somehow you think medical school is going to be easier? Med school material is a lot more standardized than undergrad, you can't go to a low tier school and coast the way your friends are apparently doing in undergrad.

 

[PurpleLove]

No you won't. You're struggling now in college but somehow you think medical school is going to be easier? Med school material is a lot more standardized than undergrad, you can't go to a low tier school and coast the way your friends are apparently doing in undergrad.

How on earth am I struggling? I have a 3.3+ at an amazing university. Gave my Orgo practice exam to my friend, she couldn't do 1/2 of it, attempted (barely) the rest. How am I struggling?

 

[Dwan]

How on earth am I struggling? I have a 3.3+ at an amazing university. Gave my Orgo practice exam to my friend, she couldn't do 1/2 of it, attempted (barely) the rest. How am I struggling?

Why not give your exam to someone with a 3.8+ at your university and see how they handle it? Maybe you could learn something instead of trying to justify your mediocrity with your "friends" who you find beneath you.

 

[Oso]

How on earth am I struggling? I have a 3.3+ at an amazing university. Gave my Orgo practice exam to my friend, she couldn't do 1/2 of it, attempted (barely) the rest. How am I struggling?

A 3.3 is not a competitive GPA at all, even from U Chicago. You need to accept this, or you're going to have a very rude awakening when you apply to medical school. Comparing yourself to people who have a lower GPA for a little self-esteem boost now will only bite you in the ass later. Your real competition will be all the people with 3.7-4.0's, including applicants from your school. So accept that there are people at your school who are actually doing quite well, lose the sense of entitlement, and work hard to raise the GPA.

As your first step in upping your academic performance, I suggest you log off SDN and let this silly thread die.

 

[XmedBarney]

A 3.3 is not a competitive GPA at all, even from U Chicago. You need to accept this, or you're going to have a very rude awakening when you apply to medical school. Comparing yourself to people who have a lower GPA for a little self-esteem boost now will only bite you in the ass later. Your real competition will be all the people with 3.7-4.0's, including applicants from your school. So accept that there are people at your school who are actually doing quite well, lose the sense of entitlement, and work hard to raise the GPA.

As your first step in upping your academic performance, I suggest you log off SDN and let this silly thread die.

She is going to get a 3.8 by her junior year, she'll be fine. YMMV.

 

[moop]

I'll have a 3.5 by the end of the year, higher by the end of junior, and I will get into medical school....
EDIT: SCIENCE GPA. 3.8-3.9 cum.

How on earth am I struggling? I have a 3.3+ at an amazing university.

Lol if you really do have a 3.8-3.9 cGPA, why talk about your 3.3+? Lol.

Stop the trolling. It's not even funny anymore.

 

[mizzu]

Lol if you really do have a 3.8-3.9 cGPA, why talk about your 3.3+? Lol.

Stop the trolling. It's not even funny anymore.

:troll:
Trololol

 

[PurpleLove]

Why not give your exam to someone with a 3.8+ at your university and see how they handle it? Maybe you could learn something instead of trying to justify your mediocrity with your "friends" who you find beneath you.

I live off campus and tutor....

 

[amanda30]

yes a top college will make you work hard and study constantly for exams, but as a student you should not be afraid of it. The more you study the higher are your chances to get a good job in future also if you are into medical, computers or any other field I personally feel you can do a lot for that field.

 

[PurpleLove]

yes a top college will make you work hard and study constantly for exams, but as a student you should not be afraid of it. The more you study the higher are your chances to get a good job in future also if you are into medical, computers or any other field I personally feel you can do a lot for that field.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Laughed out loud and scared my dog.

But yeah, good post. I'm sick of people whining and complaining about how it's just not fair. Oh well guyz, that's lyfe. Accept that the world doesn't owe you anything and move on. Threads like this one are just so annoying and pointless.

Yup, everyone needs to quit their bitching about "top" schools and "easy" schools. Here's there difference. At a top school, in a class of 50 people almost every single one is handing work in on time and doing an ok job on it. Works out to a B/B+ average. At a large state school, there are about 300 people in your class, a bunch don't do the work, half do it at the last minute, some more work hard but can't understand it, and about 50 are doing an ok job on it. Works out to a C+ average. But those top 50 are getting a B/B+ average. That's how it works out on the whole, so there's almost no difference. It's designed that way by private schools and state schools. It helps private schools to grade inflate and make grads look better, since the average grad is slightly more motivated. It helps state schools to keep things tough so you can distinguish the quality students among the masses. I went to a "top" school, and I can confirm that many, many students there who held average GPA's (~3.3) were no smarter than my friends from AP Chem who went to our local state school, who held about a 3.3 there.

And of course your friends can't do your orgo exams, they learned different material from a different professor, and they didn't study for that exam!

 

[mcloaf]

How on earth am I struggling? I have a 3.3

Oh.

 

[youmed]

Just ban her already.

 

[PurpleLove]

Clearly you don't know how a deflationary top school works.

 

[ninjaman22]

Clearly you don't know how a deflationary top school works.

Lol yeah blame it on the school brah

 

[PurpleLove]

Lol yeah blame it on the school brah

LOL Where do you go? Southeasternwestern?

 

[mrh125]

I would if I actually had the grades and interest in attending an ivy and somehow passed the admissions crapshoot. It's ridiculously hard to get in those schools and I have a strong dislike for the elitism of people at these places (as well as pseudo-ivys such as Stanford) and grade inflation. I can get everything I ever needed from a state school and working harder would definitely be a good thing because everything afterwards takes a lot of work.


The whole thing about ivys is that even with grade inflation most of these students do very well on the mcat and other standardized tests. This may be due to the kind of students, but I'm also wondering if ivy teachers and teaching methods emphasize a better and more efficient way to earn and assimilate information without the intensive short term memory dump. If they do id attend an ivy over everything because the short term memory dump is beyond excessive when critical thinking can go a lot farther

 

[PurpleLove]

I would if I actually had the grades and interest in attending an ivy and somehow passed the admissions crapshoot. It's ridiculously hard to get in those schools and I have a strong dislike for the elitism of people at these places (as well as pseudo-ivys such as Stanford) and grade inflation. I can get everything I ever needed from a state school and working harder would definitely be a good thing because everything afterwards takes a lot of work.


The whole thing about ivys is that even with grade inflation most of these students do very well on the mcat and other standardized tests. This may be due to the kind of students, but I'm also wondering if ivy teachers and teaching methods emphasize a better and more efficient way to earn and assimilate information without the intensive short term memory dump. If they do id attend an ivy over everything because the short term memory dump is beyond excessive when critical thinking can go a lot farther

Bro, you can't even spell.
Is that what you like to tell yourself to make you feel better?

Anyways, I need to go on some college forum to ask, not a site where 99.9% attend not-top schools. Of course you'll feel/make up excuses for why your school is better.... it's not. Anyone with a non-subjective pulse can tell.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

I would if I actually had the grades and interest in attending an ivy and somehow passed the admissions crapshoot. It's ridiculously hard to get in those schools and I have a strong dislike for the elitism of people at these places (as well as pseudo-ivys such as Stanford) and grade inflation. I can get everything I ever needed from a state school and working harder would definitely be a good thing because everything afterwards takes a lot of work.


The whole thing about ivys is that even with grade inflation most of these students do very well on the mcat and other standardized tests. This may be due to the kind of students, but I'm also wondering if ivy teachers and teaching methods emphasize a better and more efficient way to earn and assimilate information without the intensive short term memory dump. If they do id attend an ivy over everything because the short term memory dump is beyond excessive when critical thinking can go a lot farther

My classes definitely emphasized problem solving strategies over material. I learned a ton of stuff that seemed pointless, and when I'd ask my professor about applications sometimes they'd just tell me that it taught me to sit down and solve a hard problem. That really is an invaluable skill. Life has so few problems that take several hours of thinking, testing, thinking, testing, refining, planning, etc..., but the work world is full of them. However, I took a cell biology class last year and it was an enormous brain dump. I think students do well on standardized tests partially because they are good students, and partially because they are the type of students whose priorities lie in standardized tests.

 

[487806]

LOL Where do you go? Southeasternwestern?

Northern beats all. Sorry.

 

[mrh125]

Bro, you can't even spell.
Is that what you like to tell yourself to make you feel better?

Anyways, I need to go on some college forum to ask, not a site where 99.9% attend not-top schools. Of course you'll feel/make up excuses for why your school is better.... it's not. Anyone with a non-subjective pulse can tell.

I'm typing on a ****ing iPhone. I would like to see what your conceited ass could do in the same situation lmao. No excuses required. Different povs exist and I noted a lot of positive things about ivys

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Bro, you can't even spell.
Is that what you like to tell yourself to make you feel better?

Anyways, I need to go on some college forum to ask, not a site where 99.9% attend not-top schools. Of course you'll feel/make up excuses for why your school is better.... it's not. Anyone with a non-subjective pulse can tell.

PurpleLove, you're beyond obnoxious. I went to a top school "famous" for tough grades and graduated almost perfect in engineering. I'm not saying that to show off, I'm saying it because if I don't you'll assume I'm "beneath you." I know the demographic of kids who go to top schools, and I know the quality/intelligence of a student pulling a ~3.3-3.4 at a top school. I also spent several summers working with good students (~3.7-3.8) from "not-top schools" (state school). Let me tell you right now, they've got you beat, and badly. I think a bump of about 0.1 or 0.15 is warranted for a very tough school with very talented students. Anything beyond that is completely unwarranted. I think you'd have a 3.5 at a state school in a similarly difficult major. You're just upset that you're not quite as elite as you thought you were. Maybe your hs was really good at placing students, or maybe you had parents/friends/culture that really stressed college admissions and gave you an edge back then, when the "game" was more about being motivated and informed than it was about being smart or talented. Either way, you were good at the last step, high school. You're in college now.

 

[Silence in ER]

I go an ivy league school, the idea of having a 96 average on any exam is laughable and actually shows how easy stat schools are. Here every single damn exam average is 50. It's so bad, I once calculated that I might as well start guessing randomly because I;d probably get the same score. We are also graded on a fixed curve. 23% As! Why did I go to an ivy league school? It's a long story that involves a traumatic brain injury, body possession by aliens and hours of brainwashing/torture. Hehe, it was a mistake.

 

[PurpleLove]

I go an ivy league school, the idea of having a 96 average on any exam is laughable and actually shows how easy stat schools are. Here every single damn exam average is 50. It's so bad, I once calculated that I might as well start guessing randomly because I;d probably get the same score. We are also graded on a fixed curve. 23% As! Why did I go to an ivy league school? It's a long story that involves a traumatic brain injury, body possession by aliens and hours of brainwashing/torture. Hehe, it was a mistake.

What... That's assuming no one got above a 50.
We have no curves, besides the bell curve.
23% As? That's crazy and it doesn't matter how easy/hard the exam is here. Although it IS hard so that there is a wide distribution since we so smart. We don't even have grading scales. It all depends on if you're in the top 5-10 percent of student exams. That could separate a 89 and a 90 by a letter grade.

 

[MDforMee]

I've tried to kill this thread many times, but it refuses to die.

I have great respect for that.

 

[Silence in ER]

What... That's assuming no one got above a 50.
We have no curves, besides the bell curve.
23% As? That's crazy and it doesn't matter how easy/hard the exam is here. Although it IS hard so that there is a wide distribution since we so smart. We don't even have grading scales. It all depends on if you're in the top 5-10 percent of student exams. That could separate a 89 and a 90 by a letter grade.

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to go for here, but heh, ok. Man, I would just fax you my bio exams and I guarantee you would fail. fail. fail. Look. I respect people who got to state schools and def, some ivies are easier than others. But what people don't understand in my school: There is no such thing as late people coming to class. ( if you are late, you get a nice D on your transcript). There is no handing in hw late. There is no not being prepped for tests. There is no such thing as bsing it. There are no *******es to sweeten our curve. Everything is painful and brutal. I'm not saying I would have a 4.0 at a state school, but I think i would have at least a 3.6. Another point: Humanities at my school are total jokes, you can't judge our inflation by our humanities classes. I'm in a humanities class with 90% A's this semester. And I think humanities majors are held to a different standard than science majors,( this is true at almost every school) make of that what you will.

 

[mrh125]

My classes definitely emphasized problem solving strategies over material. I learned a ton of stuff that seemed pointless, and when I'd ask my professor about applications sometimes they'd just tell me that it taught me to sit down and solve a hard problem. That really is an invaluable skill. Life has so few problems that take several hours of thinking, testing, thinking, testing, refining, planning, etc..., but the work world is full of them. However, I took a cell biology class last year and it was an enormous brain dump. I think students do well on standardized tests partially because they are good students, and partially because they are the type of students whose priorities lie in standardized tests.

that makes sense. thanks for the explanation bc I've always been wondering if certain schools incorporate techniques that helps students do a LOT better on standardized tests (those things have always been difficult for me).

 

[moop]

The whole thing about ivys is that even with grade inflation most of these students do very well on the mcat and other standardized tests. This may be due to the kind of students, but I'm also wondering if ivy teachers and teaching methods emphasize a better and more efficient way to earn and assimilate information without the intensive short term memory dump. If they do id attend an ivy over everything because the short term memory dump is beyond excessive when critical thinking can go a lot farther

This is the most important part of a "top school" education. There is very little memorization involved in most of our science courses here. This is why we can waltz in to the MCAT and do way above average with the same amount of work as everyone else puts in. (But actually; no humble brag or anything. There's a reason why average scores at Ivies for applicants are 34-35.)

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to go for here, but heh, ok. Man, I would just fax you my bio exams and I guarantee you would fail. fail. fail. Look. I respect people who got to state schools and def, some ivies are easier than others. But what people don't understand in my school: There is no such thing as late people coming to class. ( if you are late, you get a nice D on your transcript). There is no handing in hw late. There is no not being prepped for tests. There is no such thing as bsing it. There are no *******es to sweeten our curve. Everything is painful and brutal. I'm not saying I would have a 4.0 at a state school, but I think i would have at least a 3.6.

This sounds like hyperbole, as there's still plenty of slackers here at Princeton…lol. But hey, what do I know. Maybe Pton isn't the toughest Ivy after all?