Why do you guys push gap years so hard?

[Glazedonutlove]

This is not my objection. I'm not worried that doctors never made time to have hobbies or go on trips. Who cares? I'm more concerned that they might be overgrown kids who have been in school for 20+ years, never had a normal job before, and are expected to be in touch with, and relate to, their adult patients.

I don't see the benefit in taking off a year if you can do a "normal" full time job for a summer and get the same experience. But I think it's true what someone said above about us all thinking our own path to medicine was the proper one.

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[Gurby]

The best part of taking time off, for me anyway, has been working at a job that could very easily become my career but realizing how ****ty this job can be. When your life revolves around work instead of school or applications, you gain a very important perspective and learn a lot about what you need from your career to feel satisfied.

I think this is an important point. Someone working a "normal" job during a gap year thinks to themself, "this is crappy, but I'm going to medical school soon so it's all good." You have that sense of moving forward with your life, on to bigger and better things. On the other hand, it's quite different to think to be planning on a career in that normal job and think to yourself, "this is it, 40 hours a week for the next 30 years."

 

[22031 Alum]

I think it's very possible to go straight through and come out okay, but I think there's a much greater chance of becoming jaded in the process if you don't take time off. Not to say that non-trad students don't become jaded as well, but I think it's more likely for traditional students who go straight through.

My own experience makes me disagree with you on this. The jaded people I know are the ones who fell hardest for the "It's not a job, it's a calling" line. I've seen it in both trads and nontrads and if anything have seen it in more true nontrads (meaning career changers) who had an idealized vision of what they were switching into.

I would say the exact same thing about those PhD professors. The only "different-ness" I'm ascribing is to anything that keeps you in school and out of the workforce until you're well into your adulthood. Medicine is obviously one of those things because that's an automatic 8 years of school in adulthood. The PhD professor who's in school for a similar amount of time? Same thing. It's the time in school I'm objecting to. Has nothing to do with the particular field.

Fair enough. I think in general, medicine gets looked at as if it's the only field that requires a lot of time in school, and the only situation in which doing so is weird and somehow undesirable.

 

[Cotterpin]

The benefit of a "normal job" is minimal for the vast majority of people. Is it a bonus if someone is particularly mature because it, but that doesn't always happen.

Sure, if we're talking about people who only have a "normal job" for a hot minute while their parents are still supporting them, they probably won't get a lot out of it. But that doesn't change my feeling about people who never even have that experience.

Fair enough. I think in general, medicine gets looked at as if it's the only field that requires a lot of time in school, and the only situation in which doing so is weird and somehow undesirable.

So don't worry, then, because that's not what I'm talking about. It's still weird and undesirable to my mind, but it's not only medicine I feel that way about.

 

[Cotterpin]

I don't see the benefit in taking off a year if you can do a "normal" full time job for a summer and get the same experience. But I think it's true what someone said above about us all thinking our own path to medicine was the proper one.

Because a summer job is not the same experience. If you're just doing a job for a couple of months to make a little spending money, then that's not the same thing as being a working adult, imo. That's the experience I think is lacking.

 

[Krupke]

1) Opportunity cost lost waiting a year > cost of application cycle - I know people do this, but it never made a ton of sense to me long term.

I don't quite understand what alternative you see for someone who needs to save money though. I've definitely spent over $5K this cycle. The only way to come up with that money in college would have been opening a bunch of credit cards. The opportunity cost of taking a gap year + going to med school > not going to med school at all, so it makes sense for my long-term

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Because a summer job is not the same experience. If you're just doing a job for a couple of months to make a little spending money, then that's not the same thing as being a working adult, imo. That's the experience I think is lacking.

how is extending the summer to a year suddenly make one a working adult? I paid my bills with the jobs... what would I do differently with the money if I worked for a year? I think choosing to take a gap year for the working experience is understandable if you're not decided on medicine yet/need the money for the apps

 

[BurghMed]

Taking a gap year has been the best decision I've ever made. It's made me, in my opinion, a far more competitive applicant. I've become published (albeit in a small journal), had far better letters of recommendation, been able to spend more time with family, and obtain more experiences and more hours to put down on my application.

Those who are "against" gap years are usually those sophomores or juniors in college who can't bear working/volunteering for a year or more while 3 people they know move on and go to medical school. Grow up.

 

[22031 Alum]

Taking a gap year has been the best decision I've ever made. It's made me, in my opinion, a far more competitive applicant. I've become published (albeit in a small journal), had far better letters of recommendation, been able to spend more time with family, and obtain more experiences and more hours to put down on my application.

Those who are "against" gap years are usually those sophomores or juniors in college who can't bear working/volunteering for a year or more while 3 people they know move on and go to medical school. Grow up.

What if they were competitive applicants in the first place? Shocking to consider that, right??

This is the pro-gap year attitude that annoys me. If you needed it to make your app better, own it. If you needed it to be sure that medicine is right for you, that's great. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that!! But don't act like taking a year makes you better than the people who managed to do all of the above without needing time off to do it.

 

[BurghMed]

What if they were competitive applicants in the first place? Shocking to consider that, right??

This is the pro-gap year attitude that annoys me. If you needed it to make your app better, own it. If you needed it to be sure that medicine is right for you, that's great. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that!! But don't act like taking a year makes you better than the people who managed to do all of the above without needing time off to do it.

If you're legitimately a competitive applicant in the first place, usually people on SDN can see that. I think most applicants (by statistical default) could use a gap year to improve their application. No one is saying that the 1000k hours of research 3.7, 35 MCAT applicant needs a gap year.

 

[Cotterpin]

how is extending the summer to a year suddenly make one a working adult? I paid my bills with the jobs... what would I do differently with the money if I worked for a year? I think choosing to take a gap year for the working experience is understandable if you're not decided on medicine yet/need the money for the apps

I don't even really think a gap year is enough. And I'm not talking about doing any of this to make yourself a more desirable applicant or anything. I'm just saying that I, personally, as a human and a potential patient, side eye people who are in their late twenties and don't know what it's like to have to work for a living. Or who haven't had the experience of working in a job with a bunch of other similarly stressed out adults and the interpersonal nonsense that happens there when you've been dealing with Susan from HR's bs for several years now, etc. Do you see what I'm saying? A summer job is not the same thing. Being in school for 20+ years is not the same thing. This is just my feeling about it, but I don't necessarily consider a 26 year-old student an adult just because they had a summer job that one time.

 

[Goro]

Taking a gap year is only recommended when you don't have an app ready for med school when you finish UG.

While many people can walk and chew gum at the same time, there people who have to throw everything they have into their academics, so for them, taking a gap year will finish off the app.

So to reiterate, taking a gap year is NOT a requirement.

It seems as though most of you believe taking a gap year is the default option (regardless of stats), whereas applying to medical school before graduation is harder to justify.

 

[Azete]

Personally I think the funniest thing is the people who act like their gap year gave them some magical real world experience. Especially since most spend the year living at their parents and padding their app - hardly life changing and even if you do do something relatively unique it's a lot easier to do with a security blanket.

It's like that kid in college who comes back from their semester abroad and can't stop talking about how worldly and cultured they are now.

I think someone can learn a lot about themselves by working a low-middle class job like bartending and being financially independent for a year.

 

[22031 Alum]

If you're legitimately a competitive applicant in the first place, usually people on SDN can see that. I think most applicants (by statistical default) could use a gap year to improve their application. No one is saying that the 1000k hours of research 3.7, 35 MCAT applicant needs a gap year.

I probably misinterpreted your post- you meant applicants who are resistant to doing a gap year, despite needing one. As opposed to people in general like me and @mimelim who don't think they're always the great advantage they're billed as.

To @Cotterpin - you definitely have an interesting point of view. I don't think it makes much sense to expect someone to delay a chosen career just because it takes more school. All that does is push back the day when they actually get to start their final career just to fulfill an arbitrary "adulthood" requirement. And what's the cutoff? Is a two-year graduate program okay but three years is not?

I should probably note that I don't subscribe to the fairly common viewpoint that a 24 year old in grad school is a "kid" while an 18 year old (or 21 year old) who got a job after high school (or college) isn't. They're all young adults, just doing different things. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Cotterpin]

To @Cotterpin - you definitely have an interesting point of view. I don't think it makes much sense to expect someone to delay a chosen career just because it takes more school. All that does is push back the day when they actually get to start their final career just to fulfill an arbitrary "adulthood" requirement. And what's the cutoff? Is a two-year graduate program okay but three years is not?

It's not a requirement, I don't expect anybody to do things any certain way, I don't have a cut-off. I'm just saying my personal opinion. I feel differently about people who have been in school for a million years and don't know what it's like to work for a living. You're not going to argue me out of my opinion. When I first said it, I was like "this might make me a prejudiced jerk, but . . ." It's just how I feel.

 

[Petrichor1]

Reason for me even though I knew about medicine since medical school was eligibility status and how many schools I would have been virtually barred from applying had I done so during senior year. That being said, financials were also a huge portion of my decision. If I did get into medical school, I would have had to take loans that had 50% interest rate instead. Glad I waited.

Anyways, being now a nontrad, working a full time secure job has made me learn a lot about myself. I forgot how I used to be as a kid; caring, kind, and outspoken. After being surrounded by doctors and other health professionals I see the wrong steps that they have made. Those that virtually give all their time to their work (or many types of them round the clock) are so well respected in my book. However, I don't see myself doing so. Working almost 18 hours a day, my health has seriously suffered and I have learnt the effects of bad health keeping (like eating too much or not controlling my portions enough). I have also deviated from my joint program application preparation that I was initially going to go serious on. Now, I know exactly the joint programs I want to go after with an MD. In fact, I am so thankful to not regret that I didn't pursue my initial goals because they would have wasted 4 years of mine in a degree I would have not at all preferred. While I don't enjoy my gap years, primarily because of how I am treated in my environment and how weird people in the real world are (and cray cray?), I have learnt a VERY important lesson. That is to be serious and a poker face among your colleagues and superiors. People at work start out joking to break the ice but if you fall in and joke a bit too much, they start projecting a false image of yours and an unprofessional one at that. They start disregarding your opinions. Quite frankly, I tried being a person who carried as much professional credence at another work place as the PhD, and most everyone seems polite if you don't act like an idiot and what you say isn't a bluff but is actually well researched or comes from experience. This reminds me to mention that real world and academic setting are 2 very different worlds too. You will meet really angry people in both of course, but you need to determine which setting you prefer the best and with what types of intentions people criticize your work with. I do wonder how I could have forged the path by going to a less prestigious school and just done engineering and maybe left the path of medicine all together but I also have faith that there is a reason behind me that makes me pulled towards medicine. Being the first in my family and having the skills to help people in a way no one can and just giving trust to a patient or perhaps a shoulder to cry on is very humbling. I could have never in a million years thought that I'd be setting my stage at being a doctor. At the end of the day, with all that I am going through and what I have been through, being a doctor is such a privilege that I cannot express how little its significance would have meant to me had I gone straight into medicine like I planned in middle school. Oh and marriage, wow, I really think now that I need to get married at 26 instead of 30. That's why, I am so vehement in pushing my gap years. Boy that would be a nightmare trying to keep up with your partner and studying for steps, better to get a majority out and be married by your fourth year.

 

[22031 Alum]

It's not a requirement, I don't expect anybody to do things any certain way, I don't have a cut-off. I'm just saying my personal opinion. I feel differently about people who have been in school for a million years and don't know what it's like to work for a living. You're not going to argue me out of my opinion. When I first said it, I was like "this might make me a prejudiced jerk, but . . ." It's just how I feel.

I'm not trying to argue you out of anything. I'm trying to understand it. There's no rule that opinions have to be perfectly logical but I am trying to wrap my mind around where you're coming from. My own experiences have led me to a completely different viewpoint so I'm not expecting us to start agreeing with each other.

 

[Glandzburg]

It's quite amusing to me that some people are under the impression that the year or two they spent working some desk job out of college will make them a better doctor than those who went straight through. And then they feel entitled to "side-eye" those "kids" that didn't need a gap year to get into medical school. Are you kidding me? Get over yourself.

The path you took before starting medical school doesn't make you any better or worse than any of your colleagues, and I would suggest coming to that realization before you go looking down your nose at your younger classmates.

 

[Affiche]

It's quite amusing to me that some people are under the impression that the year or two they spent working some desk job out of college will make them a better doctor than those who went straight through. And then they feel entitled to "side-eye" those "kids" that didn't need a gap year to get into medical school. Are you kidding me? Get over yourself.

The path you took before starting medical school doesn't make you any better or worse than any of your colleagues, and I would suggest coming to that realization before you go looking down your nose at your younger classmates.

Is this directed at me or @Cotterpin? Because Idt either of us is saying a one-year desk job is about to give anyone a moment of clarity. And it isn't about being a better doctor, it's about being satisfied with your decisions and accepting of the drawbacks of this career (or any career, for that matter).

Focusing on gap years as a means to improve an application defeats the purpose of the "gap" that I advocate for.

But this is totally a pointless discussion because those who didn't take gaps will get defensive and argue that they aren't missing the maturity or self-reflection of their non-trad counterparts and the non-trads will roll their eyes and continue to feel like they have a perspective that can't possibly be understood by their traditional counterparts. It's just a circular argument.

That all said, it is entertaining to me when a traditional students tells me they won't mind working 70-80 hrs/week for the rest of their lives without ever having actually worked those hours before (no offense, @Lucca!)

 

[Lucca]

Is this directed at me or @Cotterpin? Because Idt either of us is saying a one-year desk job is about to give anyone a moment of clarity. And it isn't about being a better doctor, it's about being satisfied with your decisions and accepting of the drawbacks of this career (or any career, for that matter).

Focusing on gap years as a means to improve an application defeats the purpose of the "gap" that I advocate for.

But this is totally a pointless discussion because those who didn't take gaps will get defensive and argue that they aren't missing the maturity or self-reflection of their non-trad counterparts and the non-trads will roll their eyes and continue to feel like they have a perspective that can't possibly be understood by their traditional counterparts. It's just a circular argument.

That all said, it is entertaining to me when a traditional students tells me they won't mind working 70-80 hrs/week for the rest of their lives without ever having actually worked those hours before (no offense, @Lucca!)

none taken im a masochist

 

[Glashutte32]

I don't know that I agree with the emphasis here that gap years always arise out of some kind of "need". It makes it sound punitive to take time in between. I had the opportunity to pursue an interesting (desk) job for a few years that is edifying and I think I've learned a ton. Did I need to take this time? Not really, I could have applied from UG straight through. Do I think I'm in any way superior or more mature? No. Do I think I'll be able to make a better powerpoint than the average medical student? maybe . I really doubt I'll be any better as a physician, but it did sure up my decision even more.

It reinforced for me that I don't really derive much satisfaction from a spreadsheet or helping wealthy companies just make that much more money. Most importantly, I'm glad I took this time to scratch this healthcare/business itch PRE-md, instead of after when going back would be much more difficult. I'm not even sure it helped my app all that much (besides more interview practice), as I've already had an interviewer spend a significant portion of an interview discussing why consulting is a silly field.

My unsolicited advice is to what interests you or do something you really can't do except in this odd window between phases of life.

 

[DubVille]

It's quite amusing to me that some people are under the impression that the year or two they spent working some desk job out of college will make them a better doctor than those who went straight through. And then they feel entitled to "side-eye" those "kids" that didn't need a gap year to get into medical school. Are you kidding me? Get over yourself.

The path you took before starting medical school doesn't make you any better or worse than any of your colleagues, and I would suggest coming to that realization before you go looking down your nose at your younger classmates.

Admittedly, some of the older non-trad students do take this incorrect view. Some of the older students seem to have a harder time starting at the bottom and taking orders from younger residents, attendings, etc. That said I've still seen more traditional students burn out because their life has been focused on the next multiple choice exam and they have a harder time adjusting to a work environment. There are drawbacks to any path. Plenty of awesome docs went straight through. Just the anecdotes I've seen.

 

[efle]

1) Opportunity cost lost waiting a year > cost of application cycle - I know people do this, but it never made a ton of sense to me long term.

2) School is not that busy, I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Maybe I'm expecting a bit much from students, but with proper planning the application cycle should be a relatively straight forward process. It is a long process, but the vast majority of the work can be done early. I have a brother and two advises applying for next year (start in 2017) and all of them have their LOR and secondary responses ready to go. It isn't hard, but it does require some diligence. Creating a school list can be done very early. Getting primary/secondary information from the cycle before should be done a year in advance. LOR should be cultivated from day 1 of undergrad, regardless of what you are trying to go into. I can understand if you are working full time and in school. But classes alone? Unless you are that uber academic triple majoring, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think it's more like they don't have a few thousand dollars laying around they can use to apply with, and so they have to work and save up for a year. Obviously if you have the $$ to apply, you should, since you're trading a year of attending salary down the road.

I've worked full time summer research, it is much much much less intense than a semester of double major, part time job, research, volunteering, sports, club leadership, etc. Though I still would've squeezed it in there if I had felt my application was ready so fair point

 

[mistafab]

I took gap years because I love life.

 

[Glandzburg]

Is this directed at me or @Cotterpin? Because Idt either of us is saying a one-year desk job is about to give anyone a moment of clarity. And it isn't about being a better doctor, it's about being satisfied with your decisions and accepting of the drawbacks of this career (or any career, for that matter).

Focusing on gap years as a means to improve an application defeats the purpose of the "gap" that I advocate for.

But this is totally a pointless discussion because those who didn't take gaps will get defensive and argue that they aren't missing the maturity or self-reflection of their non-trad counterparts and the non-trads will roll their eyes and continue to feel like they have a perspective that can't possibly be understood by their traditional counterparts. It's just a circular argument.

That all said, it is entertaining to me when a traditional students tells me they won't mind working 70-80 hrs/week for the rest of their lives without ever having actually worked those hours before (no offense, @Lucca!)

It actually wasn't aimed at any one person in particular. It's just that I don't think some people realize that they sound just like that guy that studied in Europe for a semester and won't stop hinting at how much more enlightened and cultured he is. And the people listening are just thinking "is he ever going to stop?" That's exactly the same vibe it gives off. It's understandably irritating to listen to people hint that they are just a bit better than you because they think their gap year gave them this profound insight about the world.

I'm not against gap years. You shouldn't pursue medicine until you think you are ready. But taking a gap year does NOT make you better than somebody that didn't, that's all I'm getting at.

 

[dreamadream]

Ugh everyone is stressing me to do this and I want to go into med school the year I graduate not the year after.

 

[Cotterpin]

I'm not trying to argue you out of anything. I'm trying to understand it. There's no rule that opinions have to be perfectly logical but I am trying to wrap my mind around where you're coming from. My own experiences have led me to a completely different viewpoint so I'm not expecting us to start agreeing with each other.

I don't think what I'm saying is particularly complicated, so I don't get what your issue is.

It actually wasn't aimed at any one person in particular. It's just that I don't think some people realize that they sound just like that guy that studied in Europe for a semester and won't stop hinting at how much more enlightened and cultured he is. And the people listening are just thinking "is he ever going to stop?" That's exactly the same vibe it gives off. It's understandably irritating to listen to people hint that they are just a bit better than you because they think their gap year gave them this profound insight about the world.

I'm not against gap years. You shouldn't pursue medicine until you think you are ready. But taking a gap year does NOT make you better than somebody that didn't, that's all I'm getting at.

I didn't have "a gap year." I had 10+ gap years. I had another life. I'm not trying to say that taking a gap year makes you better than somebody else because it's not even about being "better" than other people. One single gap year barely makes a difference. I don't care if anyone on this site takes a gap year or not. My opinion on this is unrelated to being ready for med school, etc. It's just a life thing.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I don't even really think a gap year is enough. And I'm not talking about doing any of this to make yourself a more desirable applicant or anything. I'm just saying that I, personally, as a human and a potential patient, side eye people who are in their late twenties and don't know what it's like to have to work for a living. Or who haven't had the experience of working in a job with a bunch of other similarly stressed out adults and the interpersonal nonsense that happens there when you've been dealing with Susan from HR's bs for several years now, etc. Do you see what I'm saying? A summer job is not the same thing. Being in school for 20+ years is not the same thing. This is just my feeling about it, but I don't necessarily consider a 26 year-old student an adult just because they had a summer job that one time.

yeah I don't see the point in working a different job just for the sake of it. I'd rather finish my medical education at a younger age and be working the "normal job" in medicine, which is what I actually want to spend my time with lol. But as you say, we all want different things in life, so agree to disagree.

 

[Cotterpin]

yeah I don't see the point in working a different job just for the sake of it. I'd rather finish my medical education at a younger age and be working the "normal job" in medicine, which is what I actually want to spend my time with lol. But as you say, we all want different things in life, so agree to disagree.

Yeah, you still don't get what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with the course of your medical education. What I'm talking about is the exact opposite of working "just for the sake of it." I'm talking about working because you're an adult and you have to. Because you'd be homeless if you didn't. Not everything in life is about padding out your med school app. I definitely agree we shouldn't keep going in circles about this because I don't even think we're talking about the same thing.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Yeah, you still don't get what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with the course of your medical education. What I'm talking about is the exact opposite of working "just for the sake of it." I'm talking about working because you're an adult and you have to. Because you'd be homeless if you didn't. Not everything in life is about padding out your med school app. I definitely agree we shouldn't keep going in circles about this because I don't even think we're talking about the same thing.

I thought we were talking about taking a gap year for the sole reason of getting work experience. I already said above that working for financial reasons is a different story, so we agree there

 

[Cotterpin]

I thought we were talking about taking a gap year for the sole reason of getting work experience. I already said above that working for financial reasons is a different story, so we agree there

No, I've said like thirty thousand times by now that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about med school apps at all. The point I've been trying to clarify all day is not about gap year vs. no gap year. I'm talking about being an adult who's never had a real job vs. being a student for a very, very long time. Like, not in a premed context. Just as a human person.

 

[Petrichor1]

It's quite amusing to me that some people are under the impression that the year or two they spent working some desk job out of college will make them a better doctor than those who went straight through. And then they feel entitled to "side-eye" those "kids" that didn't need a gap year to get into medical school. Are you kidding me? Get over yourself.

The path you took before starting medical school doesn't make you any better or worse than any of your colleagues, and I would suggest coming to that realization before you go looking down your nose at your younger classmates.

I dislike the people that say "kids" for those who haven't experienced real life; quite frankly if you were priviledged enough to not struggle like the rest, I say good on, better you don't see the hardships so early and feel disillusioned. At the same time, I don't like people who think that everyone who has done a gap year was a desk job employee. You need to shadow me one day and see how much "real" work feels like that is not entry level. It is humbling to say the least. To say that people work like this through retirement, it sweeps me off of the floor on that one. Unlike a lot of people who do take gap years, I am not the type to emphasize on gap year importance. If I had an advice, it would be to screw this nonsense and just go straight if you have the opportunity. People who batter here and there have other things in mind that average applicants don't and let's not forget that medical school is an organization of well-to-do people or those that are assisted on other ends.

 

[TallPreMed]

If I had been ready to apply in college, going right from undergrad to med school in the same year I wouldn't be ready.
Even a single gap year for me wasn't enough. By the time I apply I will be 26 and will (hopefully) matriculate at 27. I worked retail and am now in hospice. My work experience is what has driven to this point so far and has me more motivated and focused than I have ever been.

I think it's a personal choice and is different for everyone. Honestly I would have probably dropped out of med school had I gone straight out of college. I didn't have the appreciation nor the insight I do now, even after only 3 years post graduation.

 

[tortelliniboy]

Because it's super fun and gives you the chance to grow up. It also lets you try other things to diversify your life, change your outlook as a physician and on life in general plus you can save up money and take out less in the way of loans .

 

[Glazedonutlove]

No, I've said like thirty thousand times by now that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about med school apps at all. The point I've been trying to clarify all day is not about gap year vs. no gap year. I'm talking about being an adult who's never had a real job vs. being a student for a very, very long time. Like, not in a premed context. Just as a human person.

no one gets what you're saying. Why is it drastically different to start working at 25 vs 21?

 

[efle]

I think the idea is that seeing how ****ty alternative jobs are firsthand for several years changes your perspective on seeking a job as a physician

 

[Petrichor1]

I think the idea is that seeing how ****ty alternative jobs are firsthand for several years changes your perspective on seeking a job as a physician

truer words have never been spoken haha. But yes, being a doctor can also be bad depending on how you approach it but from an approach where you've struggled prior, you'll probably have a better experience and drive to prevent those occurrences from happening.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I can't see a compelling reason to waste time in a different job just to prove that medicine isn't as bad as that other job, but I can understand how that experience might provide insight into what kind of working environment you would want in medicine. Though cotterpin said her post wasn't even about medicine

 

[lucin]

you are in a tunnel once you sign the dotted line. don't hurry through life.

 

[22031 Alum]

That all said, it is entertaining to me when a traditional students tells me they won't mind working 70-80 hrs/week for the rest of their lives without ever having actually worked those hours before

Most of the gap-year takers who are so pleased with themselves weren't working anything near 80hrs a week. 40, sure.

No, I've said like thirty thousand times by now that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about med school apps at all. The point I've been trying to clarify all day is not about gap year vs. no gap year. I'm talking about being an adult who's never had a real job vs. being a student for a very, very long time. Like, not in a premed context. Just as a human person.

The issue may be that you chose to start making this point in a thread about gap years, I don't know.

In any case I still don't get why you "feel differently" about people who haven't worked for a living before working for a living after some arbitrary time in school. But you admitted yourself it's a bias and probably just boils down to "I did XYZ. Therefore it is bizarre not to do XYZ. Even if it is not necessary for that particular person and even if they realize how fortunate they are, it is still bizarre because it differs from me."

The hilarious thing is that the farther along you get, the less that kind of stuff is even apparent. MS3's get categorized together even if there are older MS1's. PGY4s are held to different expectations than PGY1's. Age and prior work experience hardly ever came up- it was "Can you do the job expected of you at this point in training?" If one of my interns started side-eyeing me because they are older than me and had another career first, that would be odd! So after experiencing that world, someone who makes a point that they 1) would be able to tell who'd done what in the first place (laughable) and 2) would therefore feel different about that person "just because" is hard for me to understand. But that's how it is when you're coming from wildly different perspectives.

 

[Cotterpin]

no one gets what you're saying. Why is it drastically different to start working at 25 vs 21?

Just forget it.

The issue may be that you chose to start making this point in a thread about gap years, I don't know.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue here is that I was like "my personal opinion is XYZ" and then I got grilled on it all day long. I don't think anybody has benefitted from going on and on.

In any case I still don't get why you "feel differently" about people who haven't worked for a living before working for a living after some arbitrary time in school. But you admitted yourself it's a bias and probably just boils down to "I did XYZ. Therefore it is bizarre not to do XYZ. Even if it is not necessary for that particular person and even if they realize how fortunate they are, it is still bizarre because it differs from me."

To me, it's like somebody reaching a developmental stage rather late. Like, would you feel differently about a five year old who still breastfeeds or wears a diaper? Is there some arbitrary time when those things stop being okay? Or do you just sort of think to yourself "Hmm. . . that's been going on for quite a while"? It's how I feel. Just leave it alone already, for god's sake. I'm sorry, I obviously hit a nerve with you because you didn't take a gap year. Sorry! Just move on.

 

[22031 Alum]

To me, it's like somebody reaching a developmental stage rather late. Like, would you feel differently about a five year old who still breastfeeds or wears a diaper? Is there some arbitrary time when those things stop being okay? Or do you just sort of think to yourself "Hmm. . . that's been going on for quite a while"? It's how I feel. Just leave it alone already, for god's sake. I'm sorry, I obviously hit a nerve with you because you didn't take a gap year. Sorry! Just move on.

I'll readily admit my bias from not taking a gap year. Just like you have bias that comes from being a career changer. The difference is I also have experience in actual medicine that highlights how nonsensical it is to equate graduate level education with not being weaned as a five year old.

I'll end it here. Good luck with everything- you'll need it if your disdain for people who did things a different way from you is as evident in life as it is here.

 

[efle]

Good luck with everything- you'll need it if your disdain for people who did things a different way from you is as evident in life as it is here.

What's the name of the SDN law that as the number of posts increases, the odds of someone saying someone else will struggle to be a good physician approaches 1?

 

[Cotterpin]

I'll readily admit my bias from not taking a gap year. Just like you have bias that comes from being a career changer. The difference is I also have experience in actual medicine that highlights how nonsensical it is to equate graduate level education with not being weaned as a five year old.

I'll end it here. Good luck with everything- you'll need it if your disdain for people who did things a different way from you is as evident in life as it is here.

My point was not about medicine specifically, which I said about a trillion times already, but okay. Thank you for bringing out Burnett's Law at the end there. Very grown up of you. I wish you had just ended it like twelve hours ago instead of pressing the issue all damn day.

 

[efle]

Ah Burnett's law that's it

 

[22031 Alum]

My point was not about medicine specifically, which I said about a trillion times already, but okay. Thank you for bringing out Burnett's Law at the end there. Very grown up of you. I wish you had just ended it like twelve hours ago!

Nothing to do with being a good physician. I bet you'll be a fine one. I meant actually making it through school. Every year I see people struggle with the same attitude and unfortunately burn out. But my experience is irrelevant because I wasn't a teacher or medical assistant or whatever first.

 

[Cotterpin]

Nothing to do with being a good physician. I bet you'll be a fine one. I meant actually making it through school. Every year I see people struggle with the same attitude and unfortunately burn out. But my experience is irrelevant because I wasn't a teacher or medical assistant or whatever first.

Just stop.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

~~

 

[Cotterpin]

the irony

Ah, just drop it already! Whyyyyyyyy do you persist? It's the best metaphor I could come up with considering how impossible it was for you guys to understand what I was saying.

 

[Affiche]

Most of the gap-year takers who are so pleased with themselves weren't working anything near 80hrs a week. 40, sure.

Not to get this all fired up again lol but I wanted to clarify. I'm skeptical of anyone who states they're okay with working 70-80 hrs unless they've actually done that for a few years already. I worked 50-60 hour weeks for a year and that was enough for me to realize I need a work/life balance to not be miserable. That said, I'm even more skeptical (and actually entertained) when I hear that comment from someone who hasn't even worked 40 hour weeks for more than a summer, much less the full 70-80 they're saying will be fine. This is even more true when it's coming from a college student who hasn't maintained a serious relationship yet or had to consider how their work schedule may affect their future spouse or family.

I feel pretty strongly about serving the poor so I guess the only people I feel ''differently'' about are those who were born into privilege, stayed privileged all through school and entered their first jobs as an intern, so still privileged. That's all fine except when this set-up results in having a doctor who really cannot understand his/her poorer patients and/or lacks interest in gaining that understanding. I'm all for pre-meds working some ****ty job for a little while and having to support themselves if it minimizes this issue at all.