Why Make 150k When 450k Is Out There?

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You know, when JPP does that thing where his posts are in like ten different font sizes and different colors and whatnot, I almost seize. I would appreciate it if people would stick to one font size/color (preferably not HUGE SCREAMING SCARY TEXT) within a given post.

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Come on that poll means nothing. People are saying yeah I chose surgery and not anesthesia because I don't like anesthesia or I chose pathology and not surgery because I don't like surgery. What they are not doing is saying making 1/3 to 1/4 of what they could make by choosing primary care was even an option they considered for even a couple of seconds. It never even crossed most of those people's minds to enter primary care at current reimbursement rates. Most people don't even admit to themselves the true reasons for many of their actions. One great truth that gets played out over and over in life is money talks and BS walks. That poll is BS. It takes a lot to walk away from that kind of money. Sure specialists would like people to think that more money wouldn't help to save primary care and deliver better care for the public. After all they are the ones who will be giving up some of their pay if primary care is to be revitalized it will almost certainly be done in a "budget neutral manner".

I don't know why anyone would be motivated to lie on an anonymous internet poll. In person, of course, everyone likes to look like the selfless devoted physician who does it for the love.

And it's just that, an unscientific straw poll. If you (or anyone else) can think of a better way to get an answer, go for it.
 
I don't know why anyone would be motivated to lie on an anonymous internet poll. In person, of course, everyone likes to look like the selfless devoted physician who does it for the love.

And it's just that, an unscientific straw poll. If you (or anyone else) can think of a better way to get an answer, go for it.

How about application trends and difficulty in obtaining positions as a function of reimbursements and lifestyle? Do you really think all these people want to spend their lives with a scope "where the sun doesn't shine" because they love the wonderously complex and beautifully misunderstood aroma of the anus?
 
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How about application trends and difficulty in obtaining positions as a function of reimbursements and lifestyle? Do you really think all these people want to spend their lives with a scope "where the sun doesn't shine" because they love the wonderously complex and beautifully misunderstood aroma of the anus?

I just believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

A colorectal surgeon I know chose surgery because he loved it, and chose colorectal because his mother died of colon cancer at 54. He tolerates the hemorrhoid cases, but what keeps him going every day is the possibility of finding cancer and saving someone's life. He donates his services for probably 70-80 colonoscopies a year.

I don't think people are stupid and I believe compensation is A factor, but I don't believe it is THE factor that ultimately drives ones choice of specialty.
 
I also think that it's interesting when you start considering time on the job. I wonder, when you tally all the hours of training and then practice and call and subtract malpractice and overhead and taxes, if the urban surgeon and the rural family doc who just does clinic 4-5 days a week don't end up making somewhere close to the same hourly wage.

I guess then you'd also have to start subtracting for each ulcer, each divorce, each disappointed kid at each missed soccer game. What are those worth?

In the end, I chose family for the love first and the lifestyle second and the flexibility third.

Everyone is unique and so are their motivations. I don't think we can make blanket statements about an entire generation of physicians.
 
You know, when JPP does that thing where his posts are in like ten different font sizes and different colors and whatnot, I almost seize. I would appreciate it if people would stick to one font size/color (preferably not HUGE SCREAMING SCARY TEXT) within a given post.

:laugh:
 
You know, when JPP does that thing where his posts are in like ten different font sizes and different colors and whatnot, I almost seize. I would appreciate it if people would stick to one font size/color (preferably not HUGE SCREAMING SCARY TEXT) within a given post.

Everyone has their thing on SDN.

Jet's is to use different sizes of text and structures his posts in haiku.

Embrace the diversity of that is 10,000 white medical professionals on an anonymous internet message board.
 
Why Make 150k When 450k Is Out There?

Due to the extreme greed and short-sightedness of your colleagues (MDAs) that choice wont be available to med students long term.

You guys had the world at your feet with a nice 350k average, with no CRNA threat to speak of. Then you decided that it wasnt good enough, so you sold your field out to the CRNAs by agreeing to "supervise" them so you could bill for their services and jack up your average to 450k. Now you MDAs are falling all over each other trying to see who can "supervise" the most CRNAs while you move back and forth between the lounge and the 10 different operating suites that your CRNAs are running.

I hope that extra 100k was worth it, because the actions of you and your colleagues will ruin gas as a specialty for med students in the future.
 
I guess then you'd also have to start subtracting for each ulcer, each divorce, each disappointed kid at each missed soccer game. What are those worth?

I've recently been pretty bummed by how much all that stuff applies to me and I'm an FP! Maybe it'll be different outside residency, but if I do the rural, full-spectrum OB thing, it's a pretty tough schedule.

I'm not sure if I thought this was the case when I started out. :confused:
 
Due to the extreme greed and short-sightedness of your colleagues (MDAs) that choice wont be available to med students long term.

You guys had the world at your feet with a nice 350k average, with no CRNA threat to speak of. Then you decided that it wasnt good enough, so you sold your field out to the CRNAs by agreeing to "supervise" them so you could bill for their services and jack up your average to 450k. Now you MDAs are falling all over each other trying to see who can "supervise" the most CRNAs while you move back and forth between the lounge and the 10 different operating suites that your CRNAs are running.

I hope that extra 100k was worth it, because the actions of you and your colleagues will ruin gas as a specialty for med students in the future.

Nice try at a summary, Slim.

Location in the US, reimbursement rates by insurance companies in your area, percentage of HMO penetrance in your practicing area, percentage of medicare patients in your practice, the type of cases you do (short cases on young people are worth the most) and the (lack of) threat of competition

are THE REAL factors dictating your income, whether you are in an MD-only group or in a supervisory role.

Not your rambling, fictitious, naive attempt at explaining how an anesthesiologist makes money.

And by naive, I mean I'm sure you're not even in practice yet.

And yet you're a guru at anesthesia economics.:rolleyes:
 
Nice try at a summary, Slim.

Location in the US, reimbursement rates by insurance companies in your area, percentage of HMO penetrance in your practicing area, percentage of medicare patients in your practice, the type of cases you do (short cases on young people are worth the most) and the (lack of) threat of competition

are THE REAL factors dictating your income, whether you are in an MD-only group or in a supervisory role.

Not your rambling, fictitious, naive attempt at explaining how an anesthesiologist makes money.

And by naive, I mean I'm sure you're not even in practice yet.

And yet you're a guru at anesthesia economics.:rolleyes:

battling_seizure_robots.jpg
<--Dre + co-residents
 
I just believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

A colorectal surgeon I know chose surgery because he loved it, and chose colorectal because his mother died of colon cancer at 54. He tolerates the hemorrhoid cases, but what keeps him going every day is the possibility of finding cancer and saving someone's life. He donates his services for probably 70-80 colonoscopies a year.

I don't think people are stupid and I believe compensation is A factor, but I don't believe it is THE factor that ultimately drives ones choice of specialty.

Nobody needs a colorectal surgeon until they need a colorectal surgeon. Personally, when you consider sterlization of the surgical field, is it really that different from any other anatomical region??
 
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Nobody needs a colorectal surgeon until they need a colorectal surgeon. Personally, when you consider sterlization of the surgical field, is it really that different from any other anatomical region??

This is getting off topic, but no, the rectum is never sterile. Once you get to the point in surgery where they are going anywhere near the rectum, or when the intestinal mucosa is exposed during a resection, the field is considered dirty and instruments are changed out, etc.

Poo or poo-related surfaces are never sterile.
 
This is getting off topic, but no, the rectum is never sterile. Once you get to the point in surgery where they are going anywhere near the rectum, or when the intestinal mucosa is exposed during a resection, the field is considered dirty and instruments are changed out, etc.

Poo or poo-related surfaces are never sterile.

Point taken. I guess I meant clean (which is subjective), versus actually sterile (which is not subjective).
 
"AMA Responds to Medical Students' Search for School Debt Relief"

I was pretty interested to read this...until I did. :mad: Once again, our glorious AMA has shown their weak, disaffected wit in full. I have to say it...the AMA are a bunch of losers. Here's their totally useless, utterly pathetic "resolutions":

* consider using a competency-based curriculum that could shorten the length of undergraduate education and medical school - The only thing they came up with that makes some sense. There's a LOT of inefficiency and fluff in med training. Everywhere else in the world runs a 6-year program which includes undergrad. If you want to be a doc, be a doc. Don't study naked statues in Rome first.

* identify and promote work-study opportunities for students - Stupid. Easily the dumbest thing I've heard in weeks...and I have kids. Impossible time-wise and would be a pittance against 40k/year anyway.

* match parental savings contributions to medical education costs with financial investment funds - this doesn't lower the cost at all, it just fleeces the parents. "Hey!" Says the portly AMA cardiologist, "I've got an idea to make it look like we actually care that nobody goes into primary care...let's clear out PARENT'S bank accounts too! Maybe they'll think that makes med school cheaper."

* offer paid rotating internships for certain fourth-year students - nominal money. Window dressing.

* provide Medicare funding for undergraduate medical education - they're bankrupt and trying to cut payouts to PRACTICING doctors by 10%. Now we're gonna lean on them to pay med students?

* make medical education tuition costs and/or loans deductible - MIGHT be helpful if confined to those who choose primary care.

* use endowment funds to lessen the impact of educational costs on medical students - Right. Tell that to Haavad. Their endowment is in the tens of BILLIONS of dollars and they still regularly pump their undergrads for tuition, their grad students for same, and their alumni for donations.

It totally offends me that NOBODY at the AMA will even address the fact that the American pay structure overpays for specialty care and procedures. This is the problem (CYA medicine contributes too). Our pay structure drives the cost of American medical care to more than double the second most expensive system in the world....and places us 19th or worse in markers of health care efficacy.
 
I was pretty interested to read this...until I did. :mad: Once again, our glorious AMA has shown their weak, disaffected wit in full. I have to say it...the AMA are a bunch of losers. Here's their totally useless, utterly pathetic "resolutions":

* consider using a competency-based curriculum that could shorten the length of undergraduate education and medical school - The only thing they came up with that makes some sense. There's a LOT of inefficiency and fluff in med training. Everywhere else in the world runs a 6-year program which includes undergrad. If you want to be a doc, be a doc. Don't study naked statues in Rome first.

* identify and promote work-study opportunities for students - Stupid. Easily the dumbest thing I've heard in weeks...and I have kids. Impossible time-wise and would be a pittance against 40k/year anyway.

* match parental savings contributions to medical education costs with financial investment funds - this doesn't lower the cost at all, it just fleeces the parents. "Hey!" Says the portly AMA cardiologist, "I've got an idea to make it look like we actually care that nobody goes into primary care...let's clear out PARENT'S bank accounts too! Maybe they'll think that makes med school cheaper."

* offer paid rotating internships for certain fourth-year students - nominal money. Window dressing.

* provide Medicare funding for undergraduate medical education - they're bankrupt and trying to cut payouts to PRACTICING doctors by 10%. Now we're gonna lean on them to pay med students?

* make medical education tuition costs and/or loans deductible - MIGHT be helpful if confined to those who choose primary care.

* use endowment funds to lessen the impact of educational costs on medical students - Right. Tell that to Haavad. Their endowment is in the tens of BILLIONS of dollars and they still regularly pump their undergrads for tuition, their grad students for same, and their alumni for donations.

It totally offends me that NOBODY at the AMA will even address the fact that the American pay structure overpays for specialty care and procedures. This is the problem (CYA medicine contributes too). Our pay structure drives the cost of American medical care to more than double the second most expensive system in the world....and places us 19th or worse in markers of health care efficacy.



Can you please put these points of yours into a nice "letter to the editor" and send it in? I think we'd all support it... and I doubt anyone else has yet. :thumbup:


As I've stated before.. the closer we get to a socialized medical system. We had better make damn sure that our gov is also including the benifits to us that are usually included in such a system.
i.e.
1) Medical school tuition no greater then 5-10k/year across the nation
2) For those in residency during the change or recent graduates.. the government should pay back the tuition difference of our student loans (this could be included under the tax hike for the Obama/hilary "healthcare restructuring" plan)
3) Greatly reduced malpractice insurance options

The US will end up with the UK's medical system and still charge medical students 50k+/yr for tuition (local UK students only pay 1-2k bucks per year ... even at Oxford and Cambridge).
 
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SecretWave,

It is sad that the organization that is supposed to represent all physicians is so beholden to non-PCP specialties they give lip service to potential solutions for PCP shortages. (pi$$ poor lip service at that.) Unfortunately, neither have I seen much in the way of strong action nor ideas from the PCP specialty organizations. Although to be fair to the AAFP, they did redesign their logo.:rolleyes: That'll show everyone the AAFP means business!!!:laugh::cool:
 
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Ok. It's a deal. I'm THAT torqued about this stuff. I hate being condescended to. How stupid does the AMA think med students and primary care docs really are?

I'll put a letter together and post it here. You can all write in with editorial suggestions and then we'll decide if we want to submit to a newspaper, or a doctor org, or send it around the web as a petition (or all of the above).
 
Ok. Here 'tis. If you're willing to read it (all 917 words), feedback appreciated. I'll blog it too and see if I get any feedback there as well.

The AMA - Thinking Inside The Box

With a jolt of excitement yesterday, I clicked on an internet link that read, “AMA Responds to Medical Students' Search for School Debt Relief”. I found the link while reading through one of the ongoing discussions about health care in the widely-read Student Doctor Network on-line discussion forums (www.studentdoctor.net).

The conversation revolves around the fact that medical students are increasingly rejecting primary care in pursuit of higher-paying specialist training after school, largely because of their debt (on average today, $180,000). To my great dismay, my elder medical colleagues, recently attending their annual meeting in Chicago, failed to address the real problem, which is the pay-structure in American medicine, and instead tried to come up with ways to make med school cheaper. They provided some of the most out-moded and vacuous attempts at solving the problem I could have imagined. Their proposals are so devoid of reason and intelligence, I wondered if a more Machiavellian strategy drove their collective thinking.

Here are some of their “ideas”:

* Identify and promote work-study opportunities for students – This idea is, frankly, just stupid. The demands of medical school regularly destroy families and personal health. The hours are often grueling and by the 3rd year are frequently irregular. Besides, the money would be a pittance against a 40k/year bill anyway.

* Match parental savings contributions to medical education costs with financial investment funds - This doesn't lower the cost at all, it just fleeces the parents. It’s as if the AMA thought that by draining the retirements of both the students and their parents, everyone would suddenly think med school is cheaper.

* Offer paid rotating internships for certain fourth-year students – Like the work-study idea, this is nominal money. The idea looks like window dressing to extend a rather short list of ideas in the first place.

* Provide Medicare funding for undergraduate medical education – Our social security system, including Medicare, is nearly bankrupt. They’re currently trying to cut payouts to PRACTICING doctors by 10% now, and another 5% this January. The AMA thinks they can lean on this system to pay med students?

* Make medical education tuition costs and/or loans deductible – This idea MIGHT be helpful if confined to those who choose primary care.

* Consider using a competency-based curriculum that could shorten the length of undergraduate education and medical school – This is the only idea they came up with that makes some sense. There's a LOT of inefficiency in all the hours required for medical training, especially the 4-year degree requirement prior to school. Everywhere else in the world runs a 6-year program which includes undergrad. In the rest of the world, if you want to be a doc, be a doc. Don't study naked statues in Rome first.

* Use endowment funds to lessen the impact of educational costs on medical students - The Harvard endowment is in the tens of BILLIONS of dollars and they still regularly pump their undergrad and graduate students for tuition. They lean hard on their alumni for donations also. Money comes in to these private institutions. It rarely goes out.

Primary care medicine is generally good work, and many would-be doctors every year choose the specialty on the merits of the job alone. Students are often drawn to the field for altruistic reasons, but few are happy in a system that not only demands their altruism, but preys upon these sentiments for even further gain. Thus, if an American medical graduate wants to get out of debt, have a retirement and send the kids to school, they’re wiser to choose specialty medicine.

The AMA is trying to say that med school needs to be cheaper so people are less burdened by debt when they make their specialty choice. While containing costs and possibly shortening the training time will help, the REAL problem is pay differential between specialist and generalist. The answer to that problem is simple, too: Pay specialists less, pay generalists more. Currently, our system financially rewards procedures and specialist care while paying relative ignorance to primary and preventive care. The American medical system is the most expensive in the world, but ranks around 18th place globally when all important health markers such as maternal mortality, infant mortality, obesity, diabetes and life expectancy are averaged together. The countries that beat us – Cuba trounces us at a fraction of the cost, for example – do so largely because they invest intelligently in primary care medicine.

It could be that the AMA is craven and strategic; their true goal being to prop up this specialist-heavy medical system that is overly reliant on high-tech, high-cost procedures. They may believe that primary care doctors should be replaced by lesser-trained physician’s assistants, “doctor” nurses, and nurse practitioners, all of whom have a lower threshold to refer to specialists. But specialist care is expensive, and the money is drying up. When the money’s gone, the specialists will be out of work too. So, if they aren’t being underhanded, then this particular effort at solving the problem is merely inept. Either way, they’re shooting themselves in their collective feet…a top-heavy medical system cannot sustain itself.

It is time for Americans to accept the fact that most of the developed world has better medical systems and healthier people than we do, at significantly less cost. We can catch up to them by simply investing in preventative and primary care medicine. But if even the AMA can’t (or won’t) address this issue, who will?
 
thats a nice summary of what's wrong. money clouds the minds of even the smartest people.

i feel like lewis black every time I talk about the medical system in our country. It consistently does just about everything wrong, and in costly fashion. (except technology and training--which is pretty good) I want to shove that pencil into my brain just like lewis does.
 
Ok. Here 'tis. If you're willing to read it (all 917 words), feedback appreciated. I'll blog it too and see if I get any feedback there as well.

The AMA - Thinking Inside The Box

With a jolt of excitement yesterday, I clicked on an internet link that read, "AMA Responds to Medical Students' Search for School Debt Relief". I found the link while reading through one of the ongoing discussions about health care in the widely-read Student Doctor Network on-line discussion forums (www.studentdoctor.net).

The conversation revolves around the fact that medical students are increasingly rejecting primary care in pursuit of higher-paying specialist training after school, largely because of their debt (on average today, $180,000). To my great dismay, my elder medical colleagues, recently attending their annual meeting in Chicago, failed to address the real problem, which is the pay-structure in American medicine, and instead tried to come up with ways to make med school cheaper. They provided some of the most out-moded and vacuous attempts at solving the problem I could have imagined. Their proposals are so devoid of reason and intelligence, I wondered if a more Machiavellian strategy drove their collective thinking.

Here are some of their "ideas":

* Identify and promote work-study opportunities for students &#8211; This idea is, frankly, just stupid. The demands of medical school regularly destroy families and personal health. The hours are often grueling and by the 3rd year are frequently irregular. Besides, the money would be a pittance against a 40k/year bill anyway.

* Match parental savings contributions to medical education costs with financial investment funds - This doesn't lower the cost at all, it just fleeces the parents. It's as if the AMA thought that by draining the retirements of both the students and their parents, everyone would suddenly think med school is cheaper.

* Offer paid rotating internships for certain fourth-year students &#8211; Like the work-study idea, this is nominal money. The idea looks like window dressing to extend a rather short list of ideas in the first place.

* Provide Medicare funding for undergraduate medical education &#8211; Our social security system, including Medicare, is nearly bankrupt. They're currently trying to cut payouts to PRACTICING doctors by 10% now, and another 5% this January. The AMA thinks they can lean on this system to pay med students?

* Make medical education tuition costs and/or loans deductible &#8211; This idea MIGHT be helpful if confined to those who choose primary care.

* Consider using a competency-based curriculum that could shorten the length of undergraduate education and medical school &#8211; This is the only idea they came up with that makes some sense. There's a LOT of inefficiency in all the hours required for medical training, especially the 4-year degree requirement prior to school. Everywhere else in the world runs a 6-year program which includes undergrad. In the rest of the world, if you want to be a doc, be a doc. Don't study naked statues in Rome first.

* Use endowment funds to lessen the impact of educational costs on medical students - The Harvard endowment is in the tens of BILLIONS of dollars and they still regularly pump their undergrad and graduate students for tuition. They lean hard on their alumni for donations also. Money comes in to these private institutions. It rarely goes out.

Primary care medicine is generally good work, and many would-be doctors every year choose the specialty on the merits of the job alone. Students are often drawn to the field for altruistic reasons, but few are happy in a system that not only demands their altruism, but preys upon these sentiments for even further gain. Thus, if an American medical graduate wants to get out of debt, have a retirement and send the kids to school, they're wiser to choose specialty medicine.

The AMA is trying to say that med school needs to be cheaper so people are less burdened by debt when they make their specialty choice. While containing costs and possibly shortening the training time will help, the REAL problem is pay differential between specialist and generalist. The answer to that problem is simple, too: Pay specialists less, pay generalists more. Currently, our system financially rewards procedures and specialist care while paying relative ignorance to primary and preventive care. The American medical system is the most expensive in the world, but ranks around 18th place globally when all important health markers such as maternal mortality, infant mortality, obesity, diabetes and life expectancy are averaged together. The countries that beat us &#8211; Cuba trounces us at a fraction of the cost, for example &#8211; do so largely because they invest intelligently in primary care medicine.

It could be that the AMA is craven and strategic; their true goal being to prop up this specialist-heavy medical system that is overly reliant on high-tech, high-cost procedures. They may believe that primary care doctors should be replaced by lesser-trained physician's assistants, "doctor" nurses, and nurse practitioners, all of whom have a lower threshold to refer to specialists. But specialist care is expensive, and the money is drying up. When the money's gone, the specialists will be out of work too. So, if they aren't being underhanded, then this particular effort at solving the problem is merely inept. Either way, they're shooting themselves in their collective feet&#8230;a top-heavy medical system cannot sustain itself.

It is time for Americans to accept the fact that most of the developed world has better medical systems and healthier people than we do, at significantly less cost. We can catch up to them by simply investing in preventative and primary care medicine. But if even the AMA can't (or won't) address this issue, who will?

Looks good.
Sign it and send it out. :thumbup:

The only other thing I wouldn't mind seeing added to it.. (although this could be an entirely seperate article) is how if we are going to move towards a more public health care system. We should also adopt some of the benefits that are given to those training as doctors in such a system. I.e. 1) the possibility of more 6 year medical programs out of high school. 2) Greatly reduce medical education costs (maybe citing UK example of only 2k pounds per year in tuition nationwide). 3) GREATLY increased Loan forgiveness/repayment options for those currently in residency training or other recent grads. 4) Nationwide GREATLY decrease in malpractice insurance costs.

Another side discussion: Maybe if the gov also took over malpractice insurance for all physicans.... (they already do this for Banks via FDIC insurance) then when a patient wants to sue a doctor they would basically be suing the gov. Which means.. 1) doctors wouldn't pay much in malpractice insurance rates and 2) they would rarely worry about getting sued.

thoughts?

Something to think about.
 
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Maybe if the gov also took over malpractice insurance for all physicans.... (they already do this for Banks via FDIC insurance) then when a patient wants to sue a doctor they would basically be suing the gov. Which means.. 1) doctors wouldn't pay much in malpractice insurance rates and 2) they would rarely worry about getting sued.

thoughts?

Something to think about.


:idea:Wow! :eek: Maybe I'm being naive, but this seems like a really great idea. I've never thought of this or seen it suggested anywhere else. It seems like pooling the risk nationwide would make this a much more economically feasible option then the every-man-for-himself thing we have now. Good thinking, Millisevert:thumbup:
 
The countries that beat us &#8211; Cuba trounces us at a fraction of the cost, for example &#8211; do so largely because they invest intelligently in primary care medicine.

I find your statements about global medicine relative to the US to be extremely suspect. Otherwise, a great letter.

Americans by far outwork their colleagues around the world--longer hours and greater levels of stress. And yes, levels of obesity are higher here, but I have a feeling this is largely due to our nation's infrastructure system (try getting around without a car) and dietary habits (short lunches; no national cuisines over time; heavy emphasis on fastgood) than medical care. Our generally more extreme climate and higher humidity levels don't help, either

Also, the bit about Cuba is purely bogus. If you investigate their healthcare facilities and ignore the propaganda put out by their government, you reach that conclusion very quickly.

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Healthcare in the US could enjoy some major improvements, but I've seen the care people get in Europe: it's not up to par with ours. Try rotating in a foreign country and see what you think.

Again, that's not to negate your letter at all. I thoroughly agree that our reimbursement system needs a major overhaul.
 
I agree 150K is a great salary......

You really think so? Dentists can easily make far more than that with an easier training schedule and no residency. CRNAs make more than that. The list of professions that make more than that goes on and on.

There are police departments in California that pay their officers 150k, and higher levels up to 230k. Very little education required. Firemen making up to 130k.

I think physicians have lost all control over their profession and will continue to do such as long as government intervenes.

I fully agree with you on your point about debt affecting job choice, and I don't fault people for making this decision at all. Doctors do take part in a noble profession and already make countless sacrifices. That said, this is a business and decisions should be made accordingly. There's nothing wrong with demanding just compensation, and there's nothing wrong with expecting to be paid for services rendered.
 
:idea:Wow! :eek: Maybe I'm being naive, but this seems like a really great idea. I've never thought of this or seen it suggested anywhere else. It seems like pooling the risk nationwide would make this a much more economically feasible option then the every-man-for-himself thing we have now. Good thinking, Millisevert:thumbup:

Thanks... yeah, I thought it sounded like a good idea.
 
Thanks for adding a series of logical and well written posts to the thread. I'm disappointed that some students/MD's would think they have a monopoly on valid inference for all things medical.

Looking again at JPP's original question brings up a series of thoughts for me:

1) These figures of 150K, 450K, etc. are averages collected on surveys.
2) If you prefer a salaried position over ownership or part-ownership of a private practice, these averages are more likely to apply to your future income.
3) In private practice there is a greater variance in income, and there must be a logical reason for this variance.
4) My best explanation to date for this variance is that medicine is a business, and some businesses are simply run in a much more profitable manner than others.

This goes to the heart of what you touched on, which is understanding the financial aspects of medicine. Doing so may just permit you to chose the specialty you enjoy most AND make more than you otherwise would.



Jet is pretty much spot on as far as anesthesia salaries. I just graduated from residency and I am starting out at 325K 1st yr, 375K 2nd yr, and 425K 3rd yr. I do take a lot of call but its home call. post call day is off. Oh, did i mention the 13 wks of vacation a yr. Daily routine is fairly hectic. Meaning, i will be runing around doing nerve blocks, spinals, epidurals, preops, inductions, pacu problems etc.

Yeah, i was one of those med studs that wanted to do family medicine with 160K in loans. I am glad i changed my mind. I am happy with anesthesia and even happier with the time off that i get to spend with my family.
 
I'll tweak the letter and look into the Cuba thing.

Highly recommend you all check out this blog post. Amazing detail about how federal payouts are set and why primary care is losing bad.
 
I do worry that in the future, especially if radical changes are made to our health care system, that there is going to be a lot of pressure to use NPs and "doctor nurses" and PAs to do the primary care.

That is the real danger. The leash midlevels operate on gets longer by the day as the government and private insurance seek to drive down the cost of paying for doctors. A local hospital staffs its ER 80% of the time with PAs exclusively, with an FP doc on beeper call. It's not inconceivable that in another decade one of those advertisements in the back of JAMA could read, "Practice seeks primary care providers (MDs, DOs, NPs, PAs). Excellent lifestyle, wonderful community. Salary $85,000."

However, not all specialists are secure, either. Some fields (urology, for instance) see a lot of medicare patients. Others (neurology, for instance) do next to no procedures.

Having lived through it once before, it's never pleasant to place yourself in a position where your livelihood could be severely compromised by the stroke of a pen.
 
The part about the ER seeking MD, DO, PA, NP for 85k a year is scary. I was offered nearly that with my masters back in the days when I graduated from biomedical engineering.
 
I don't think the PA/NP/Dr.N movements necessarily want the autonomy....they want the money. Everybody wants the money. Their prices will keep rising too.

So, consider a system where primary providers are less-trained than anywhere else in the world. They're paid maybe 20% less but with constant pressure to raise those prices ("we're doing what MD's did, why can't we make what they made?"). Their malpractice costs will soon rise to the level of doctors', and eventually be surpassed because the likelihood of mistakes is higher with less training. Costs to the medical system will rise dramatically as well because these providers - trying to mitigate the risk of mistakes d/t less training - will refer to specialists more often. More specialists mean more tests, more procedures, more false-positives and more major work-ups. Increased specialist exposure will be financially catastrophic to our medical system. It should be reserved only for the most serious and complex cases.

This, I think, is a compelling argument for keeping our primary care system MD/DO based. The question, in my mind, is whether or not anyone is hearing it.
 
I don't think the PA/NP/Dr.N movements necessarily want the autonomy....they want the money. Everybody wants the money. Their prices will keep rising too.

So, consider a system where primary providers are less-trained than anywhere else in the world. They're paid maybe 20% less but with constant pressure to raise those prices ("we're doing what MD's did, why can't we make what they made?"). Their malpractice costs will soon rise to the level of doctors', and eventually be surpassed because the likelihood of mistakes is higher with less training. Costs to the medical system will rise dramatically as well because these providers - trying to mitigate the risk of mistakes d/t less training - will refer to specialists more often. More specialists mean more tests, more procedures, more false-positives and more major work-ups. Increased specialist exposure will be financially catastrophic to our medical system. It should be reserved only for the most serious and complex cases.

This, I think, is a compelling argument for keeping our primary care system MD/DO based. The question, in my mind, is whether or not anyone is hearing it.

Now here is what I don't get... I see the bolded statement time and time again on here, but I don't really know where it is always coming from. I consider myself a specialist, but I never order a truly needless test, and I consider "work-ups" a pain in the arse so I would never submit myself to performing one unles absolutely necessary. Biopsies are only acted upon when the pathologist instructs to do so, so I do not see how that drives up costs or screws with the system...

Now it is a different matter altogether when you know that a certain doc stress tests everyone who walks through their door, has never seen a negative stress test, undertakes a nuclear scan based upon "slightly abnormal" results, and then schedules a cath... now that person should develop a reputation for themself rather quickly and should hammered appropriately for f*ing us all due to cost escalation -- but to throw every specialist under the bus is every bit as intellectually flawed as the specialist saying that the primary care docs are "jacks of all trades and masters of none" or "glorified triage nurses"....
 
The point I'm trying to make is that good training at the primary care level leads to appropriate referrals to the specialist level.

Specialists make more money seeing fewer patients than primary care docs. There are myriad reasons for this, many of them justifiable. But from a system standpoint, because of the cost, patients should be referred only when necessary. Fully-trained doctors are much better at knowing when a referral is truly necessary. This represents a huge cost savings to the system. It's also more ethical because it allows people who are really in need to be seen in a timely manner.

On the ethics point, I'll use an anecdotal derm example for you: My wife has an unusual growth on her leg. The soonest she can be seen by derm in my town is 4 months from now (by a mid-level, ironically). What if she has an invasive neoplastic process? What if she's waiting behind hundreds of patients who were sent by their mid-level primary care "docs" who "just don't do skin"?

So, I contend that MD/DO for primary care is both cheaper and more ethical, generally-speaking. I also think this message needs to be much better articulated by the AAFP and the AMA as well as by practicing doctors, or doctors everywhere (specialists included) will be in a world of hurt.
 
My wife has an unusual growth on her leg. The soonest she can be seen by derm in my town is 4 months from now (by a mid-level, ironically).

So, why doesn't her family physician simply biopsy the lesion? This is pretty basic stuff. If it's benign, there's no need for a derm referral at all. If it's malignant, he/she can pick up the phone and talk to the dermatologist him/herself. If she's got biopsy-proven skin cancer, I'll bet she'll be seen sooner than four months from now.

As I've said before, if you're worried about being replaced by a mid-level, you probably should be.
 
You're making my point for me, Sir Blue.

She was referred by a mid-level who was standing in for her PCP. I told her to insist that she see her own doc. That appt. will happen this week, and I doubt she'll need to keep her derm appt.
 
Specialists make more money seeing fewer patients than primary care docs.

Mmm...not necessarily. Sure, most of 'em make more money, but you'd be surprised at the clinic volume of a typical specialist. Most of them see more patients per day than I do. Of course, they're only dealing with one problem (usually).
 
Yeah, that's true. I probably shouldn't generalize on that point since there's lots of variation. All-told, I suppose the average PCP may see more patients since many specialists do procedures 1-2 days a week. In my post, I was thinking specifically of a pediatric cardiologist who routinely sees about 9 patients a day.

But adult cards probably see 40 or so. Same for ortho. But again, then they do surgery days where they "see" 5-10.

Anyway, point taken. As Irwin "Fletch" Fletcher once said, "It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong....and I am NOT a big man!" :D
 
Neurologists who have done a procedural fellowship (neurophysiology or sleep) do quite well.

True, and neurologists are protected from midlevel creep in part by the intellectual rigor of their field.
 
Now here is what I don't get... I see the bolded statement time and time again on here, but I don't really know where it is always coming from. I consider myself a specialist, but I never order a truly needless test, and I consider "work-ups" a pain in the arse so I would never submit myself to performing one unles absolutely necessary. Biopsies are only acted upon when the pathologist instructs to do so, so I do not see how that drives up costs or screws with the system...

Now it is a different matter altogether when you know that a certain doc stress tests everyone who walks through their door, has never seen a negative stress test, undertakes a nuclear scan based upon "slightly abnormal" results, and then schedules a cath... now that person should develop a reputation for themself rather quickly and should hammered appropriately for f*ing us all due to cost escalation -- but to throw every specialist under the bus is every bit as intellectually flawed as the specialist saying that the primary care docs are "jacks of all trades and masters of none" or "glorified triage nurses"....

I don't think this is much of an understatement. Let's face it, when faced with a money making procedure, economic behavior favors somebody doing more tests if its gonna make them money. The example you gave is good, and there are many more. Pain specialists do lots of unnecessary stuff, cards do lots of cardiac ct's/echos/card mri's/caths, spine docs do some questionable spines, GI's are inclined to scope (just to check things out). Allergy docs doing not indicated desensitizations, etc, etc. It's out there. And a lot of it would stop (docs would 'magically' decide it wasn't worth that much to patient care) if the incentive was taken away.

By no means do I say everyone is like this. Most proceduralists i would say are not. But there are enough to make it a problem
 
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I was thinking specifically of a pediatric cardiologist who routinely sees about 9 patients a day.

Given the relatively nonprocedural nature of peds cards, they're undoubtedly salaried, and working in academics or a large tertiary care center where there's cost-shifting. There's no way they're covering their salary with that volume.
 
Let's see...as I recall, they were in fact private, but they cover a HUGE swath of the area. They put a ton of miles on their cars driving along I-5 from city to city.

And, yeah, they don't do many procedures...with the exception of an echo. It was a bit annoying, actually, to see that their threshold for echo was right about where mine was. They used almost no actual analysis. Well, that's not true, they would go through these really cool medical reasoning trees, using factoids about EKG's I'd never heard of and picking out little details of the hx...and then they'd pause and say virtually every time, "Buuut, let's just get an echo to make sure."

Why be that smart if you you're just gonna zap everyone?
 
Thought i would post. I read through a few pages and got the theme of this thread.

Graduated this year from FM residency. True, FP's don't get compensated as well as some of the specialists out there, but I truly enjoy what I do.

Also, the starting salaries have jumped quite a bit lately for outpatient FP jobs EVEN in the big cities like Seattle. I'm not talking about timbuk2 or rural medicine.

I too had the fear of being underpaid, but not for now.

Out of the 8 residents, 6 decided to stay in the greater Seattle area. My bud signed with a large multi-specialty (the trend lately up here) for 175K + 15K signing bonus. (they also paid for his boards exam, DEA, etc) not too shabby. The avg compensation at his clinic is 220K with docs making high 300's w/ no OB, no inpatient medicine.

I signed with a non-profit group for 155K w/ no non-compete clause and they will front me any production I make over that the first 2 years based on the current production model. Easily attainable. If I can produce 4000 work RVU's = 172K. 4600 and i'm already at 200K.

It's also easy to get a job in Urgent Care around here for starting salaries 155-165 w/ 15K signing bonus.

Sure it's not 450K, but for only 3 years of residency life and no call, 200+ is definately sufficient for many.

The problem is many don't pay attention to practice management and really understanding billing & coding. once you understand this, you can get compensated quite fairly and find creative ways to increase your production (ie: vasectomies, circumcisions, joint injections, derm procedures, newborn care, even colonoscopies).

Also, CMS (medicare) released their new RVU fee schedule in 2007 w/ E&M codes finally taking a jump up (90% of the codes a clinic doc uses). For example a 99213 used to give you .67 wRVU's and now .92. Of course for now there is a Budget Neutrality Factor, but still over .8. This will benefit docs alot, esp since insurance companies usually all gravitate to CMS guidelines for payouts.

Start learning the ins/outs of coding early in your residency. Take advanage of your residency clinic coder (hopefully you have a good one like I did) and get comfortable with as MANY procedures you can while you have preceptors available. Do electives in podiatry, dermatology, urology, etc. One of our grads does colonoscopies twice a week around here.

When you interview, be savy and smart when chosing your practice. Don't put too much weight in the "guranteed salary", instead ask for the last 2 years annual reports to analyze their financial stability, the efficiency of their billing practices, the average RVU production of the providers (and their years in practice) and make sure you analyze the current physician compensation model in place for docs off their guaranteed period. If you care about compensation, try to avoid compensation plans that keep you on salary and offer lots of bonuses (as many times they look attractive but can be somewhat subjective).

Best of luck.. but don't believe all the hype if money is your biggest concern. If you aren't savy and smart with the way you practice, then you will likely not make 200k+, but on the flip side, if you do your due dilegence... you'll be okay in FP.

.02
 
Thought i would post. I read through a few pages and got the theme of this thread.

Graduated this year from FM residency. True, FP's don't get compensated as well as some of the specialists out there, but I truly enjoy what I do.

Also, the starting salaries have jumped quite a bit lately for outpatient FP jobs EVEN in the big cities like Seattle. I'm not talking about timbuk2 or rural medicine.

...

.02

:clap::thumbup:

Thanks for that.
 
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