Why Make 150k When 450k Is Out There?

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You can focus on overhead all you want, but if the money isn't coming in, it doesn't matter if you work out of a trailer or the Taj Mahal. The bills ain't gonna get paid.

Agreed. It just sounds funny to say I want MORE money than 150k a year. Unfettered, this is a fabulous salary - in the top 5% of Americans, top .05% of the world. So, we can either kill the overhead or drive up the salaries.

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Agreed. It just sounds funny to say I want MORE money than 150k a year. Unfettered, this is a fabulous salary - in the top 5% of Americans, top .05% of the world. So, we can either kill the overhead or drive up the salaries.

Please go to the anesthesia forum, find the unhappiness in anesthesia thread, post #68.

UTSouthwestern eloquently addresses the (taboo) HUNDRED FIFTY LARGE issue.
 
Procedures will likely always be reimbursed at a relatively higher rate -- the skillset involved, risk assumed, costs associated with, etc are higher across the board for procedures compared to cognitive (with costs being the single largest factor in reimbursement differentials). .

I would argue that the skillset required for internal medicine, family practice, and pediatrics are at least as challenging as mastering dermatology due to the sheer breadth of knowledge required. In fact there are many primary care physicians who feel that primary care residency tracts should be extended to 4 years. The relative value unit was established favoring specialist by a committee heavy on specialists according to what I have read. I would argue that poor primary care reimbursements and the severe shortages are a direct result of lack of representation and uninformed lawmakers.
 
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New England Journal of Medicine Article on Primary Care Crisis

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/9/861

The American College of Physicians recently warned that "primary care, the backbone of the nation's health care system, is at grave risk of collapse."1 And indeed, primary care is facing a confluence of factors that could spell disaster. Patients are increasingly dissatisfied with their care and with the difficulty of gaining timely access to a primary care physician; many primary care physicians, in turn, are unhappy with their jobs, as they face a seemingly insurmountable task; the quality of care is uneven; reimbursement is inadequate; and fewer and fewer U.S. medical students are choosing to enter the field.

The great majority of patients prefer to seek initial care from a primary care physician rather than a specialist,2 but their unhappiness with their primary care experience is growing.3 At the same time, primary care physicians are expressing frustration that the knowledge and skills they are expected to master exceed the limits of human capability, making it impossible to provide the best care to every patient.4 The scope of primary care extends from uncomplicated upper respiratory and urinary tract infections to the longitudinal care of elderly patients with diabetes, coronary heart disease, arthritis, and depression — who may also have limited proficiency in English.
Reimbursement based primarily on the quantity of services delivered, rather than on quality, forces primary care physicians onto a treadmill, devaluing their professional work life. The short, rushed visits with overfilled agendas that cause patients dissatisfaction simultaneously breed frustration in physicians.
Contributing to this frustration is the growing set of demands placed on primary care. The preventive services that a physician either ought to provide because there is evidence of their efficacy or might provide because of the patient's preferences (which must therefore be discussed) have multiplied. The prevalence of chronic conditions — most of which are handled in primary care settings — is increasing, as are requirements for their proper management. Not only has the number of primary care tasks grown exponentially, but physician performance is being measured and physicians are even being paid according to their ability to perform these tasks reliably and consistently. It has been estimated that it would take 10.6 hours per working day to deliver all recommended care for patients with chronic conditions, plus 7.4 hours per day to provide evidence-based preventive care, to an average panel of 2500 patients (the mean U.S. panel size is 2300).4
These excessive demands contribute to long waiting times and inadequate quality of care for patients. A growing proportion of patients report that they cannot schedule timely appointments with their physician. Emergency departments are overflowing with patients who do not have access to primary care. The majority of patients with diabetes, hypertension, and other chronic conditions do not receive adequate clinical care,4 partly because half of all patients leave their office visits without having understood what the physician said.5
These problems are exacerbated by the system of physician payment.1 Thirty minutes spent performing a diagnostic, surgical, or imaging procedure often pays three times as much as a 30-minute visit with a patient with diabetes, heart failure, headache, and depression. The median income of specialists in 2004 was almost twice that of primary care physicians, a gap that is widening. Data from the Medical Group Management Association indicate that from 1995 to 2004, the median income for primary care physicians increased by 21.4 percent, while that for specialists increased by 37.5 percent. A 2006 report from the Center for Studying Health System Change reveals that from 1995 to 2003, inflation-adjusted income decreased by 7.1 percent for all physicians and by 10.2 percent for primary care physicians. The 5 percent increase in Medicare payments for primary care announced in June 2006 is insufficient to narrow the gap.
These factors add up to an unsurprising result: fewer U.S. medical students are choosing careers in primary care.1 Between 1997 and 2005, the number of U.S. graduates entering family practice residencies dropped by 50 percent (see line graph). In 1998, half of internal medicine residents chose primary care; currently, about 80 percent become subspecialists or hospitalists (see bar graph).1 These trends are occurring at a time of growing need for primary care for an aging population with an increased prevalence of chronic disease. Moreover, many nurse practitioners and physician assistants who could join the primary care workforce are instead going to work in wealthier specialty practices. Primary care practices in the United States now depend on luring physicians away from other countries.

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Family Medicine Residency Positions and Number Filled by U.S. Medical School Graduates.
From the American Academy of Family Physicians, based on data from the National Resident Matching Program.


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Proportions of Third-Year Internal Medical Residents Choosing Careers as Generalists, Subspecialists, and Hospitalists.
For 2001, the data reflect the career plans for all third-year internal medicine residents, including categorical, primary care, medicine–pediatrics, and other tracks. Data for all other years reflect the career plans of third-year residents enrolled in categorical and primary care internal medicine programs. Data for 1998 through 2003 are from Garibaldi et al.6 Data for 2004 and 2005 are from Carol Popkave, American College of Physicians. NA denotes not applicable.

Even as primary care spirals further into crisis, studies have demonstrated that a primary care–based health care system has the potential to reduce costs while maintaining quality. The hospitalization rates for diagnoses that could be addressed in ambulatory care settings are higher in geographic areas where access to primary care physicians is more limited. States with a higher ratio of generalist to population have lower per-beneficiary Medicare expenditures and higher scores on 24 common performance measures than states with fewer generalist physicians and more specialists per capita.1
Fixing primary care requires actions on the part of primary care practices (microsystem improvement) and the larger health care system (macrosystem reform). A covenant is needed between those who pay for health care and those who deliver primary care: primary care must promise to improve itself, and in return, payers must invest in primary care.
Fortunately, microsystem improvement is taking place. Many primary care practices have instituted policies to reduce appointment delays. Learning collaboratives have catalyzed primary care practices — particularly in community health centers, integrated delivery systems, and academic medical centers — to implement components of the Chronic Care Model, effecting impressive improvements in process and outcome measures. Primary care professional societies are designing and testing new practice models.
Yet these efforts have touched only a fraction of primary care practices, with small private offices offering the greatest challenge. Moreover, these models have not sufficiently confronted the reality that primary care physicians lack the time to provide all evidence-based preventive and chronic care services for the average patient panel.4 This problem is addressed in a misguided fashion by concierge practices with small patient panels. Such practices are rarely available to lower-income patients, and if the approach were widely adopted, the primary care workforce would become grossly insufficient to care for the entire population.
A more thoughtful solution to physicians' time constraints requires a combination of team care and electronic encounters. Nonphysician team members working with Web- and e-mail–based patient portals can perform routine preventive care functions and manage less complex chronic care. However, forging cohesive and efficient teams is a challenge, and few payers adequately reimburse these services.
Unfortunately, little activity is evident at the macrosystem level. No serious proposals to narrow the income gap between primary care physicians and specialists are on the national agenda. Fee-for-service payment rewards quantity rather than quality, fostering the rushed visits that underlie primary care's shortcomings. Pay-for-performance programs appear to be insufficient to make a substantial difference; physicians could increase their income more — with less additional work — by adding one or two patient visits each day than by meeting all the quality standards in current performance-based payment programs.
Serious effort is required to develop a national primary care payment policy. Public policy on primary care does not exist; the fortunes of primary care are dictated not by the health care needs of the country but by a specialty-rich, quantity-based reimbursement system. Few legislators, particularly among those responsible for the trend-setting Medicare program, are aware that primary care is struggling. An educational campaign is needed — to explain the nature and causes of the threats to primary care's survival; to provide well-documented information on the benefits of primary care, focusing on the potential for a strong primary care–based system to control health expenditures; and to offer concrete proposals for reforming both primary care at the microsystem level and the payment scheme at the macrosystem level.
Who might support a national policy to rescue primary care? Employers and insurers, public and private, may reap a return on investment by fostering a more effective primary care sector that will reduce health care costs. The public would benefit from microsystem improvement, with fewer appointment delays, higher quality, and more meaningful interpersonal relationships. Even specialists might recognize that they would suffer if primary care deteriorates, being forced to coordinate care and confront psychosocial issues in patients with multiple acute and chronic conditions rather than focusing on diagnosing and managing specific diseases within their scope of expertise. Whoever takes up the cause of primary care, one thing is clear: action is needed to calm the brewing storm before the levees break.
 
I would argue that the skillset required for such a broad areas of study as internal medicine, family practice, and pediatrics are at least as challenging as mastering dermatology due to the sheer breadth of knowledge. In fact there are many primary care physicians who feel that primary care residency tracts should be extended to 4 years. The relative value unit was established favoring specialist by a committee heavy on specialists according to what I have read. I would argue that poor primary care reimbursements and the severe shortages are a direct result of lack of representation and uninformed lawmakers.

In theory you are certainly correct, because by definition dermatology is a sub-discipline of medicine. But how many internists do you know that know Harrison's and Cecil's cover to cover in addition to keeping up with the current literature on each and every subtopic? Neuro? Onc? Cards? Nephro? ID? There's not enough space in any one brain to truly "master" medicine, or pediatrics, let alone both disciplines plus OB.

Whether you're talking about a subspecialist or a generalist, a surgeon or a medicine doctor, we all have one thing in common: After training, your average doc goes into private practice and hones his skills on a relatively small range of "bread and butter" medical issues/operations.

We all have different skill sets, which is why different specialties exist. I don't expect MOHS to manage hypertension according to the latest JNC guidelines, and I wouldn't expect a general internist to be able to perform Mohs surgery.

I may poke fun at medicine docs for conducting coma-inducing rounds, but I respect them immensely for doing a difficult and often thankless job. I hated OB, but it's a needed service and I applaud people who go into it. Our different skill sets complement each other and no one sub-discipline is any more "difficult" than any other in terms of subject matter (except of course Rad/Onc, which of course requires you to be a master of astrophysics). The unfortunate reality is that our flawed healthcare system just makes some specialties more difficult to get into. We're all physicians and each of us only wants the best outcome for our patients.
 
New England Journal of Medicine Article on Primary Care Crisis

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/9/861

The American College of Physicians recently warned that "primary care, the backbone of the nation's health care system, is at grave risk of collapse."1 And indeed, primary care is facing a confluence of factors that could spell disaster. Patients are increasingly dissatisfied with their care and with the difficulty of gaining timely access to a primary care physician; many primary care physicians, in turn, are unhappy with their jobs, as they face a seemingly insurmountable task; the quality of care is uneven; reimbursement is inadequate; and fewer and fewer U.S. medical students are choosing to enter the field.

I have long argued that the entire U.S. healthcare system is going to come to a grinding, screeching halt one fine day--perhaps in the fairly near future.
 
In theory you are certainly correct, because by definition dermatology is a sub-discipline of medicine. But how many internists do you know that know Harrison's and Cecil's cover to cover in addition to keeping up with the current literature on each and every subtopic? Neuro? Onc? Cards? Nephro? ID? There's not enough space in any one brain to truly "master" medicine, or pediatrics, let alone both disciplines plus OB.

Whether you're talking about a subspecialist or a generalist, a surgeon or a medicine doctor, we all have one thing in common: After training, your average doc goes into private practice and hones his skills on a relatively small range of "bread and butter" medical issues/operations.

We all have different skill sets, which is why different specialties exist. I don't expect MOHS to manage hypertension according to the latest JNC guidelines, and I wouldn't expect a general internist to be able to perform Mohs surgery.

I may poke fun at medicine docs for conducting coma-inducing rounds, but I respect them immensely for doing a difficult and often thankless job. I hated OB, but it's a needed service and I applaud people who go into it. Our different skill sets complement each other and no one sub-discipline is any more "difficult" than any other in terms of subject matter (except of course Rad/Onc, which of course requires you to be a master of astrophysics). The unfortunate reality is that our flawed healthcare system just makes some specialties more difficult to get into. We're all physicians and each of us only wants the best outcome for our patients.

In my post I stated at least as difficult as dermatology not more difficult in response to the assertion (which I believe to be patently false) stating that the skillsets required for specialties are more difficult to master and therefore inherently more valuable. I think the evidence as to the undervaluation of primary care is evident to all in the lack of medical students choosing to enter primary care. As I am not a dermatologist, I wouldn't presume to state that primary care is more difficult to master. I would however expect the same in return. I see that most of your posts are in the surgical subspecialty forums. Do you care to identify what type of resident you are so that we might place your comments in the context of your interests?
 
I should add that 150k is perfectly adaquate compensation if there is no debt involved. Given that my debt load exceeds the yearly income of close to 8 middle-class Americans, the metric changes.

My financial portfolio for much of the forseeable future is effectively INDENTURED SERVITUDE to banks (and distantly, the university). I have the WORST OF BOTH WORLDS: a high gross income (with tax penalties and political class envy) but with a totally proletarian net take-home. Since I could make this ho-hum salary at a factory - never missing a game or birthday party, never getting sued etc - the inflated hours and risk of my job is simply UNFAIR.
.

Wow.
 
In my post I stated at least as difficult as dermatology not more difficult in response to the (1) assertion (which I believe to be patently false) stating that the skillsets required for specialties are more difficult to master and therefore inherently more valuable. I think the (2) evidence as to the undervaluation of primary care is evident to all in the lack of medical students choosing to enter primary care. As I am not a dermatologist, (3) I wouldn't presume to state that primary care is more difficult to master. I would however expect the same in return. I see that most of your posts are in the surgical subspecialty forums. Do you care to (4) identify what type of resident you are so that we might place your comments in the context of your interests?

(1) Agreed. Completely. Well said.

(2) Agreed. That is an inarguable, and unfortunate, consequence of our flawed system.

(3) That is the point I was trying to make--primary care disciplines are no more and no less objectively difficult to master than subspecialty disciplines. At the risk of getting over-philosophical, we all serve our various purposes and should be working in concert to improve the care of our patients. Primary care is not "inherently less valuable" than specialty care, and specialties wouldn't exist without primary care.

Perhaps I was being ineloquent, but I believe that none of us ever truly "masters" our fields; rather we become proficient at managing the issues we see most frequently and should thus always attempt to further our knowledge bases. I suppose I did not state this viewpoint succinctly enough in my previous post.

(4) I am a plastic surgery resident. That shouldn't make my viewpoints regarding the undervaluing of primary care physicians any less valid.
 
I would argue that the skillset required for internal medicine, family practice, and pediatrics are at least as challenging as mastering dermatology due to the sheer breadth of knowledge required. In fact there are many primary care physicians who feel that primary care residency tracts should be extended to 4 years. The relative value unit was established favoring specialist by a committee heavy on specialists according to what I have read. I would argue that poor primary care reimbursements and the severe shortages are a direct result of lack of representation and uninformed lawmakers.

OK, first let me say that I am in no way belittling primary care -- I have always contended that their job is thankless, undercompensated, and, I believe, harder to be truly great at than most subspecialty care. I do not envy their job one bit. It is true that there is a greater breadth of knowledge required to master all areas for a PCP; however, let's be fair and truthful about this -- mastering all subsets of knowledge is not commonplace in primary care outside of the truly remarkable. Specialists and subspecialists exist out of need, not convenience.

HOWEVER -- you make my point for me in mentioning the length of training required. Specialty training is longer with reason, and this increased length of training has to be factored in (and is).

Regarding the RVU values -- you are correct in that the RUC has traditionally been biased towards specialties with a procedural slant if viewed as a physician pool demographics to representation ratio. The only way to correct this, however, would be to expand the seats on the board thereby increasing the votes. It is also important to note that the committee is not comprised solely of physicians -- insurance execs and other leaders of industry have representation as well.

As far as derm = whatever -- very difficult to say with any degree of authority. I will say this - my cohorts and I typically spanked medical school tests and boards -- none of us that I know of found dermatology as easy a subject as one would believe.


There is no need to turn these discussions into a pissing match -- I knowingly and willingly subsidize my PCP bretheren due to these inequalities.
 
OK, first let me say that I am in no way belittling primary care -- I have always contended that their job is thankless, undercompensated, and, I believe, harder to be truly great at than most subspecialty care. I do not envy their job one bit. It is true that there is a greater breadth of knowledge required to master all areas for a PCP; however, let's be fair and truthful about this -- mastering all subsets of knowledge is not commonplace in primary care outside of the truly remarkable. Specialists and subspecialists exist out of need, not convenience.

HOWEVER -- you make my point for me in mentioning the length of training required. Specialty training is longer with reason, and this increased length of training has to be factored in (and is).

Regarding the RVU values -- you are correct in that the RUC has traditionally been biased towards specialties with a procedural slant if viewed in a physician pool demographics to representation ratio. The only way to correct this, however, would be to expand the seats on the board thereby increasing the votes. It is also important to note that the committee is not comprised solely of physicians -- insurance execs and other leaders of industry have representation as well.

As far as derm = whatever -- very difficult to say with any degree of authority. I will say this - my cohorts and I typically spanked medical school tests and boards -- none of us that I know of found dermatology as easy a subject as one would believe.


There is no need to turn these discussions into a pissing match -- I knowingly and willingly subsidize my PCP bretheren due to these inequalities.

Perhaps I over-generalized. My PRS colleagues and I are part of your same test-killing demographic, and I know that I have found PRS to be a very challenging field. It's a big reason that I selected PRS. I'm not saying derm is "easy;" looking at a derm text makes my head hurt.

I would say that becoming an expert in an esoteric field presents a unique set of challenges due to the depth of knowledge required; however, the increased breadth and scope of more general disciplines presents a different set of challenges. In a vacuum (i.e. irrespective of any possible difference in academic ability between average practitioners of a given specialty) I think these things balance each other out, more or less.

The point being that I am also anti-pissing match.
 
I should add that 150k is perfectly adaquate compensation if there is no debt involved. Given that my debt load exceeds the yearly income of close to 8 middle-class Americans, the metric changes.

My financial portfolio for much of the forseeable future is effectively indentured servitude to banks (and distantly, the university). I have the worst of both worlds: a high gross income (with tax penalties and political class envy) but with a totally proletarian net take-home. Since I could make this ho-hum salary at a factory - never missing a game or birthday party, never getting sued etc - the inflated hours and risk of my job is simply unfair.

Practically, I'm not interested in fighting for "more money"; just less overhead. Then the 150 is fine. Or, alternatively, put it at 300 (like the specialists) and leave the overhead.

This is why new proposals to, for example, increase the "medical home" responsibilities of FP's, to add documentation requirements, to index quality indicatiors to pay, and a thousand other ideas out there, needs to be met by FP's collectively blowing a gasket. ANY addition to FP overhead is catastrophically unfair - even unethical - and this message needs to be sent constantly.

I hear you. It is basically the "its not worth it" factor that makes your 150 argument compelling. Few people work under constraints where if you miss one thing during your day (which includes about 500 operations in my completely subjective random number of decisions you make every day) you could potentially be responsible for someone's life and future earnings. At some point, this sort of responsibility makes your life of making 150 just not worth it. At least at higher incomes you can justify this sort of stress.

And jet, what would you do if gas paid 150? just curious.
 
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And jet, what would you do if gas paid 150? just curious.

I've never hidden the fact that my specialty choice was largely influenced by lifestyle, personalities in said profession (most anesthesiologists are happy with their profession), and reimbursement.
 
A physician who practices the full spectrum of Family Medicine plus ER would earn more than $580,000 annually.

Given your faith in recruiters (and their salary predictions), you might be interested in some ocean front property in that same great state of Iowa.
 
Had you not bumped it, I suspect it would've gone longer.

UHHHHHHHHHH.......Why do you think that is? (Your HONEST opinion....no winky avatar opinions......YOUR honest opinion....Kent W's...)

Reality hurts.

But its here.

Student loan debt affects your life after residency in a BIG way.

Read UT's post again.

And again.

And again.
 
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Well, it's gotten kinda repetitive. After everyone has said the same thing over and over again a few times, what's the point?

:beat:

;)
 
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

This is how abstractly bizarre this thread has become


It's like a bro-bro-bro-bro-bro-broken rec-rec-rec-rec-record

BUT THE MESSAGE REMAINS THE SAME, DESPITE THE COY WINKY AVATARS.

Student loan debt spirals higher.

Med students with alotta debt are caught between financial reality and personal yearn to pursue primary care.

You guys can try and deter the message all you want with coy posts.

But the issue of premier med students avoiding primary care solely because of (low) reimbursement remains.
 
It's like a bro-bro-bro-bro-bro-broken rec-rec-rec-rec-record

Y Y Y YYESSS!! But a bro-bro-bro-broken record with more views than Fam Meds freq- freq-freq-freq-freq asked-asked-asked questions!!!

You guys are frikkin hilarious.

Deciding to take a defensive stance, despite the obvious public response.

(Geez....18000 views!!!! Wow, Kent! More than the FAQ! More than any subject in recent FM forum history! Hard to ignore, despite you and your colleagues cogent efforts to minimize the OP.

Thats passion.)

Grow a pair.

Choose to accept reality that med students forego primary care solely based on benjamins.

And that needs to change.

With REAL loan forgiveness.

I agree 150K is a great salary......

BUT NOT IF YOU OWE 200K-PLUS IN STUDENT LOAN DEBT.

MULTIPLE mass media articles exist on this subject (is FORBES credible enough for you?)
 
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I have a life, thanks.

Grow a pair.

Tell me what needs to be done to solidify loan forgiveness.



physicians-training-prospects-lead-careers-cx_tw_0505doctors.html
 
Sorry, slim. If you haven't been able to figure it out in the past 498 posts, I don't think there's much I can tell you at this point.


:lol:

Doesnt impact me in the least, SLIM.

But it does impact the 3rd year med students with 100-200K in student loan debt looking at your specialty.

You're trying to make this personal where theres no personal component involved.

I'm an advocate of student loan forgiveness for debt-laden med students pursuing primary care, what-with spriraling outta control med student debt, do ya think benjamins become an issue in specialty selection? ;)

Nothin' personal, Kent.;)

Just pointing out to the audience an issue that you've chosen to ignore.....WHICH IS....

MONEY IS WANNA THE PRIMARY FACTORS AFFECTING MED STUDENTS. SORRY, BRO. TRUE D'AT.


;);););)
 
If you haven't been able to figure it out in the last 500 posts, I don't think there's much I can tell you at this point.

Hmmmm....you edited from 498 to 500....

not much difference.

I wouldda left it unedited at 498. ;);););)
 
"Grow a pair" isn't personal?

Sell that "I'm only doing this for the greater good" schtick someplace else, "Slim." I ain't buyin'.

Your "buyin" or not makes no difference to me.

What makes a difference to me is that 18000 views saw that debt laden med students who choose primary care as a specialty are at a financial disadvantage, and something needs to be done to change that.

Nutthin personal, Kent. ;););););)
 
Yeah, and I edited out "Slim," too...the first time.

But you've earned it.

Angry, huh?

Good.

Make some difference for the 3rd year med student pursuing primary care.....all the while carrying a quarter-mil student loan-debt on his-her back.

I've read the stuff on here about the crappy loan forgiveness programs and the declining reimbursement for primary care.

Time for that to change.
 
Um...yeeeeeeah. Nothing personal about that. :rolleyes:


:lol:

WAIT DUDE!

SERIOUSLY!

You flamed me for making it "personal" by referring to you as Kent even though thats your avatar.

OK.

I'll follow thru with your line of thinking on this.

SO, if your avatar says KENTW, how can I "refer" to you so it isnt personal?:lol:
 
The "buy low, sell high" rationale only makes sense here if FP were ever high . . .

This is a non-argument.

I would hope that FPs never make as much as surgeons/interventionalists. For the amount of risk that surgeons assume (i.e. liability... more specifically, the potential for liability), you would hope that their compensation reflects that assumption of risk. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any surgeons around when patients/FPs need them.

That's basic Econ 101.
 
I thought we DNRed this thread... needs a little dialysis. Too much sh;t floating around.

If you're only argument for not going into primary care or family med is student loans, it's a weak argument. Politicians use it all the time, and I'm ok with it because I'm the benefactor of those arguments; but if you're like JPP and want to fear-monger people into not going into primary care because of student loans, you don't understand finance.

1) Student loans are easy to qualify for. Most students don't have a credit history, but schools/banks lend it to students anyways. It's easier than a mortgage. And for medical students, federal government allows you to borrow more than if you were a law or business student (because society truly and tangibly benefits from your work when you get out).

2) There's no freaking collateral with student loans. Collateral is used to reduce the lender's risk in case the borrower defaults. There's no collateral, people! If you're going to default, you're going to default... but:
-Is the bank going to repossess your education?... No...
-Is the bank going to evict you and foreclose your education?... No...

3) Most importantly, student loans are the cheapest debt you will EVER find.

-For subsidized loans, the government backs your interest while you're in deferment. That guarantee plus government subsidies to the lenders allow lenders to give you a low rate.

-There's a freaking CAP on how high rates can go if interest rates are high in general, for those who have variable rate loans.

-For students who take out loans today, your rate is freaking fixed at a rate that's considered low by historical standards.

-And good God, for students who take out loans today, not only is it freaking fixed, but they tell you that it'll actually go down as you approach your senior year in 2012! And usually, you end up borrowing more money as you go through school. So if you consolidate at the end of 4 years, the weighted-average calculation makes your debt so much cheaper than it was when you were a 1st year in 2008. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_loan)

-Lenders give you interest rate reductions if you pay on time and if you use auto-debit. Uh... duh? You mean, if I pay my bills on time, you'll make it cheaper for me? Try negotiating that deal with your mortgage or utility bills...

-And speaking of mortgages, a mortgage these days is 6% for 30 year fixed term and 5.6% for 15 year term. My credit card rate is 12-15%. My car note was 8%. Um, hello, my student loans with a 30 year term? 3%. And I get a 1% reduction after paying 36 months on time. So 2%. My student loan interest rates will increase slower than inflation historically. I mean, I have US savings bonds from 7th grade that are accruing interest at 6%. I've been trying to cash my savings bonds, but it makes more money than I'm accruing on my debt for a financial instrument of comparable risk class from my perspective.

Sh;t, I wished I borrowed more student loans because it's so much cheaper than borrowing from other sources. Duh?...

All this student debt talk is stupid. Maybe because it doesn't apply to me because I make/made solid financial decisions. Not the best, but not the worst either.

As an aside, is that how you manage your personal finance portfolio?

Do you buy the most beaten-down stocks, and assume/hope they go up?

I've tried that, Slim. It usually doesnt work.

I graduated from an Ivy League business school and worked on Wall Street as a private equity financial analyst for a large European fund before med school. My investment track record at my firm is one that I am (and anyone would be) proud of.

I'm not going to beat you up because I can tell you don't have a background in finance.

The answer to your question is Yes, if you understand the market, the economics, the market structure, the regulatory environment, the people, and most importantly, the fundamentals of the business. I've been studying health care business since 1993; and for me, there isn't a job more fun than what I get to do in Family Medicine.

You're allowed to say things, even if you don't fully understand them, and therefore fearful of them. Just don't try to convince the med students with less life experience than you that your crap is the truth.
 
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I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore.

Everyone agrees that:

1. FM/IM/Peds is underpaid
2. Loan forgiveness would go a long way towards alleviating that pain
3. Potential solutions would be increasing pay or increasing loan forgiveness.

And lastly
4. FM's/IM's/Peds are well aware of the salary discrepancy, they don't need their noses rubbed in it.

What am I missing?
 
I am currently trying to decide on what specialty I would like to do and am torn between the two specialties on both sides of this debate. I can honestly say that annual income has little to do with it. Why? Because in 5, 10, 15 years, the tables may be turned. I hear there was a time when anesthesiology was poorly paid too -- given the cyclical nature of things, it is possible it will be in the future. Why should I base my decision on the uncertain and fluid aspects, versus what I enjoy?
 
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I am currently trying to decide on what specialty I would like to do. I can honestly say that annual income has little to do with it.

You're not alone.

Since we're all repeating ourselves, I mentioned this article earlier.

Is Medical Student Choice of a Primary Care Residency Influenced by Debt?
Marc J. Kahn, MD; Ronald J. Markert, PhD; Fred A. Lopez, MD; Steven Specter, PhD; Howard Randall, PhD (deceased); N. Kevin Krane, MD
Medscape General Medicine. 2006;8(4):18.

Full text here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/545605_1

Abstract:

Context: The average medical student accumulates more than $120,000 in debt upon graduation.

Objective: The purpose of this study was to investigate whether medical student debt affects residency choice.

Design: This was a cross-sectional research study.

Setting: This study was a 5-year analysis of student debt and residency choice for 2001-2005 graduates from 3 US medical schools (n = 2022): Tulane University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana; University of South Florida College of Medicine, Tampa, Florida; and Louisiana State University School of Medicine in New Orleans.

Main outcome measures: Individual student data were collected from offices of financial aid for debt prior to and during medical school to determine total debt at graduation. Total debt (adjusted for inflation) was compared with residency match results coded according to specialties listed in the Graduate Medical Education Directory 2005-2006. Graduates were coded into either primary care (PC) or nonprimary care (NPC) specialty categories. Logistic regression for the choice of a PC residency was used with 4 predictors: (1) total debt, (2) medical school, (3) year of graduation, and (4) number of years of training required for a residency program.

Results: Mean total debt for the study population was $89,807 (SD = 54,925). Graduates entering PC did not have significantly less total debt than those entering NPC ($87,206 vs $91,430; P = .09). Further, total debt was not a predictor of a PC residency after adjusting for medical school, year of graduation, and years of training in residency (P = .64).

Conclusion: There is no association between PC residency choice and debt. We conclude that medical students make residency decisions on the basis of a complex set of factors.
 
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Context: The average medical student accumulates more than $120,000 in debt upon graduation.

Objective: The purpose of this study was to investigate whether medical student debt affects residency choice.

Design: This was a cross-sectional research study.

Setting: This study was a 5-year analysis of student debt and residency choice for 2001-2005 graduates from 3 US medical schools (n = 2022): Tulane University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana; University of South Florida College of Medicine, Tampa, Florida; and Louisiana State University School of Medicine in New Orleans.

Main outcome measures: Individual student data were collected from offices of financial aid for debt prior to and during medical school to determine total debt at graduation. Total debt (adjusted for inflation) was compared with residency match results coded according to specialties listed in the Graduate Medical Education Directory 2005-2006. Graduates were coded into either primary care (PC) or nonprimary care (NPC) specialty categories. Logistic regression for the choice of a PC residency was used with 4 predictors: (1) total debt, (2) medical school, (3) year of graduation, and (4) number of years of training required for a residency program.

Results: Mean total debt for the study population was $89,807 (SD = 54,925). Graduates entering PC did not have significantly less total debt than those entering NPC ($87,206 vs $91,430; P = .09). Further, total debt was not a predictor of a PC residency after adjusting for medical school, year of graduation, and years of training in residency (P = .64).

Conclusion: There is no association between PC residency choice and debt. We conclude that medical students make residency decisions on the basis of a complex set of factors.

Boom. I definitely didn't pick purely based on finances.

The possibility of being less dependent on Medicare bureaucrats and other administrative jackasses was attractive, but in the end I picked a specialty that challenges me and makes me happy.

I knew I wasn't going to starve no matter what I picked. So if neurology or medicine or FP or OB/GYN or whatever else had been my cup of tea I'd have gone with that. Maybe I'm being foolishly idealistic, but the simple fact is that the golden age of medicine from a financial standpoint is gone for all of us and if you're in it for the money then it was a foolish decision to become a doc. You might not get rich but you probably will have a steady job and enough cash to put food on the table and get your kids through school.
 
Boom. I definitely didn't pick purely based on finances.

The possibility of being less dependent on Medicare bureaucrats and other administrative jackasses was attractive, but in the end I picked a specialty that challenges me and makes me happy.

I knew I wasn't going to starve no matter what I picked. So if neurology or medicine or FP or OB/GYN or whatever else had been my cup of tea I'd have gone with that. Maybe I'm being foolishly idealistic, but the simple fact is that the golden age of medicine from a financial standpoint is gone for all of us and if you're in it for the money then it was a foolish decision to become a doc. You might not get rich but you probably will have a steady job and enough cash to put food on the table and get your kids through school.


Exactly. How about a poll in the general residency forum to ask people what their motivations were?

I am willing to bet most will say they chose the field they chose because it made them happy.

Nobody is disagreeing that loan debt is out of control. The way other countries get around that is by the government subsidizing medical education so people don't have to take out crazy amounts of debt and line the pockets of the bankers in the process, but this is AMERICA and that's not the way we roll.

Simply forgiving giant student loans is not the answer. Making medical education more affordable is.
 
:lol:

Doesnt impact me in the least, SLIM.

But it does impact the 3rd year med students with 100-200K in student loan debt looking at your specialty.

You're trying to make this personal where theres no personal component involved.

I'm an advocate of student loan forgiveness for debt-laden med students pursuing primary care, what-with spriraling outta control med student debt, do ya think benjamins become an issue in specialty selection? ;)

Nothin' personal, Kent.;)


Just pointing out to the audience an issue that you've chosen to ignore.....WHICH IS....

MONEY IS WANNA THE PRIMARY FACTORS AFFECTING MED STUDENTS. SORRY, BRO. TRUE D'AT.


;);););)


Stick to English...

Primary care can earn a nice living, despite conventional wisdom, and it can be done legitimately. There are a couple of models which can work.
 
Exactly. How about a poll in the general residency forum to ask people what their motivations were?

I am willing to bet most will say they chose the field they chose because it made them happy.

Nobody is disagreeing that loan debt is out of control. The way other countries get around that is by the government subsidizing medical education so people don't have to take out crazy amounts of debt and line the pockets of the bankers in the process, but this is AMERICA and that's not the way we roll.

Simply forgiving giant student loans is not the answer. Making medical education more affordable is.

:D
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=530575
 
The amount of substantive discussion in this thread is far less than the annoying and inappropriate personal banter that's going on.

I signed up to be an Advisor/Mod to help people out, but I'm feeling like a babysitter.

The next time there are personal attacks exchanged, we shut it down.
 
Hear! Hear! Layin' down the FM forum LAW.

Cross Sophie Stands With A Fist at your peril!

Thanks for keeping things focused and relevant around here, SJ. :)
 
Specialty Selection Is In Fact Dictated By Student Loan Debt.

is it really, now?

Let's keep an eye on that straw poll over in Gen Residency.

Or better yet, who wants an easy research project? Send a letter to all residents at all ACGME and AOA prorgrams, ask the simple question, write a little article, submit, voila!
 
thanks for creating the poll!

It's interesting so far, though not surprising, by any means.

Check it out and vote.

:)

Come on that poll means nothing. People are saying yeah I chose surgery and not anesthesia because I don't like anesthesia or I chose pathology and not surgery because I don't like surgery. What they are not doing is saying making 1/3 to 1/4 of what they could make by choosing primary care was even an option they considered for even a couple of seconds. It never even crossed most of those people's minds to enter primary care at current reimbursement rates. Most people don't even admit to themselves the true reasons for many of their actions. One great truth that gets played out over and over in life is money talks and BS walks. That poll is BS. It takes a lot to walk away from that kind of money. Sure specialists would like people to think that more money wouldn't help to save primary care and deliver better care for the public. After all they are the ones who will be giving up some of their pay if primary care is to be revitalized it will almost certainly be done in a "budget neutral manner".
 
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