Why soo few blacks in medicine ?

[HM3]

My honest Reaction to reading the AAMC GRID-

I can't help but worry that he will get into every school and I'll be working at Burger King cause my skin's the wrong color.

When you throw statements like this around it removes intellect from the debate, similar to the Nazi reference.

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[Giggles88]

How does interpreting data make me a hater? Blacks get in with lower scores than non-blacks, and the data supports that. Racism is not always negative, the fact that ADCOMs expect more from asians is racist, but the racism there is based on the (positive) assumption that asians are smarter or can perform better in school. The fact that blacks and other racial minorities matriculate with lower scores is also racism.

As defined by dictionary.com, Racism is
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racesdetermine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

You don't see blacks or other racial minorities complaining that med schools accept them with lower scores, and thus hold them at a lower standard. Racial minorities only want to be treated equally when it benefits them. You also don't see asians complaining that they are held at a higher standard. For the most part they accept it and work their asses off to meet and exceed expectations.

If an asian gets a 4.0 and a 35, you probably wouldn't be too impressed, but if another racial minority gets a 4.0 and a 35, you would probably think they are really smart. Racism.

Contrary to popular belief, racism helps blacks and hurts asians. AAMC's data on the relationship between MCAT, GPA, and matriculation is evidence of that.

When comparing the matriculation rate for different races, you have to have a control, like MCAT/GPA. You can't just say that it's harder to get into med school for blacks because they have a lower acceptance rate. If their GPA/MCAT are lower, of course they are going to have a lower acceptance rate. If you compare every single MCAT/GPA combination, blacks have a higher acceptance rate than whites and asians. That means it is easier for blacks to get in.

I don't care if 1/1000 black applicants gets in if the 999 that got rejected had 2.0GPA and 20MCAT. That is not indicative of "it's harder to get into med school for blacks because only 1/1000 got in". Blacks get accepted with stats that are way lower than whites/asians. Unless you are saying that blacks are dumber, therefore it is harder for them to get equivalent scores as whites/asians, then the fact that a lower percentage matriculate means absolutely nothing.

If, however, you are saying that blacks are dumber (I'm not saying this, I'm posing a possible reason to validate your statement), therefore they should be held at a lower standard, then maybe the fact that a lower percentage of blacks matriculate with lower scores is valid. Maybe.

Even then, as a URM myself (non AA) I don't believe there should be lower standards (though there obviously are) for varying races. Med schools should take whomever they feel is best qualified regardless of race. If that means that 100% of med students are asians because their scores are highest and they have the best ECs, then so be it. It's your responsibility to earn opportunities, not someone else's responsibility to hand them out to you. If you can't earn it without getting the benefit of the doubt because of your race, gender, upbringing, or whatever, then you don't deserve it.

Your "interpretation" is loathsome and juvenile, at best.

And the fact that someone like you is well on their way to becoming a physician is frightening.

 

[142348]

The AAMC data provides general statements for large groups and certainly is not meant to provide case by case conclusions. However, what is concerning is that the AAMC data has consistently shown that the average MCAT/GPA are lower for URMs and that at each threshold of scores it easier for a URM to get in than an ORM (white/asian).

As someone who is against AA or the use of the URM designation this is how I view the arguement (obviously others would disagree):

While it is important to have diversity in medicine, it is more important to accept the best applicants we can into medical school as a med school admission is a limited resource. It stands to reason that we don't apply the same standard of AA to law enforcement, government, military, pro sports, etc. despite similar or greater levels of public visibility and importance to provide the public with people of similar race. What's good for the goose... The data that has been published (which is limited) has only found correlations between MCAT and USMLE score which represents a surrogate for how you do as a med student in the eyes of the med school and prospective employers (aka residencies). If MCAT/GPA are what correlate, one should expect that in order to provide equity in admissions and select the best students possible that there isnt a consistent difference in scores by race.

The other issue strikes at the heart of what equity is; the way the current system is designed is that there are a finite number of spots and indirectly students from overrepresented groups are being placed at a disadvantage (ex. an Asian with a 33/3.7 has a lower probabilty to be accepted than a URM). These overrepresented applicants had nothing to do with the socioeconomic disparities that exist and are essentially being punished for the transgressions of a previous generation. Further, Asians, who were are a minority, are being punished because as a group the previous generations were too successfull. I dont see equity in that.

 

[411309]

The AAMC data provides general statements for large groups and certainly is not meant to provide case by case conclusions. However, what is concerning is that the AAMC data has consistently shown that the average MCAT/GPA are lower for URMs and that at each threshold of scores it easier for a URM to get in than an ORM (white/asian).

As someone who is against AA or the use of the URM designation this is how I view the arguement (obviously others would disagree):

While it is important to have diversity in medicine, it is more important to accept the best applicants we can into medical school as a med school admission is a limited resource. It stands to reason that we don't apply the same standard of AA to law enforcement, government, military, pro sports, etc. despite similar or greater levels of public visibility and importance to provide the public with people of similar race. What's good for the goose... The data that has been published (which is limited) has only found correlations between MCAT and USMLE score which represents a surrogate for how you do as a med student in the eyes of the med school and prospective employers (aka residencies). If MCAT/GPA are what correlate, one should expect that in order to provide equity in admissions and select the best students possible that there isnt a consistent difference in scores by race.

The other issue strikes at the heart of what equity is; the way the current system is designed is that there are a finite number of spots and indirectly students from overrepresented groups are being placed at a disadvantage (ex. an Asian with a 33/3.7 has a lower probabilty to be accepted than a URM). These overrepresented applicants had nothing to do with the socioeconomic disparities that exist and are essentially being punished for the transgressions of a previous generation. Further, Asians, who were are a minority, are being punished because as a group the previous generations were too successfull. I dont see equity in that.

I agree that while it can be useful to have diversity in medicine (ex: a hispanic male runs into the ER and can only speak spanish, might be useful to have a spanish speaking doctor with latino heritage). I think that setting the bar lower for other races is ridiculous though..as a white male I wouldn't have dreamed about applying MD with my stats without an SMP (even though im perfectly happy with DO). However my stats are pretty much on par with the average black matriculant. The whole two wrongs don't make a right pretty much applies here. Judging an applicant on race rather than numbers/ECs is racism, sorry don't care what anyone calls it..

 

[jweezy225]

I agree that while it can be useful to have diversity in medicine (ex: a hispanic male runs into the ER and can only speak spanish, might be useful to have a spanish speaking doctor with latino heritage). I think that setting the bar lower for other races is ridiculous though..as a white male I wouldn't have dreamed about applying MD with my stats without an SMP (even though im perfectly happy with DO). However my stats are pretty much on par with the average black matriculant. The whole two wrongs don't make a right pretty much applies here. Judging an applicant on race rather than numbers/ECs is racism, sorry don't care what anyone calls it..

When's the last time you grew up as a minority? You know nothing about it. Your stats should have been up to par for being a white male, and they weren't. Simple as that.

Until racial inequality is completely phased out---and you've got to be a fool if you believe that it doesn't exist anymore---URM's will continue to get an "edge" in the application process. And I use the term "edge" loosely given that URM's on average comprise a whopping 5% of a medical school's class. E.g., in my class of almost 200, there are 10-12 minorities (black, hispanic, etc.) combined.

Also, I can tell you that judging an applicant based on numbers/ECs alone is quite silly and NO medical school admissions committee does that. Applicants are more than just numbers/ECs. Numbers/ECs set a baseline for the committee to look at, but it's definitely not what will carry you into medical school--hence why there are interviews.

I'm ecstatic that you got into a DO school, but--although you say you are content--it doesn't seem as if you are given your response. It sounds like you're bitter that a black applicant was able to secure his/her spot in a med school class that only reserves 5% of its class for minorities while you weren't able to do the same with the 95% reserved for applicants like yourself.

Hopefully as you continue on in your medical education, you'll realize that some of the things you've said/thought at this current stage are just plain incorrect and not helpful for progression as a physician.

 

[jweezy225]

Your "interpretation" is loathsome and juvenile, at best.

And the fact that someone like you is well on their way to becoming a physician is frightening.

I agree. These SDN users would NEVER have said any of these things to admissions committees that they so easily type on these forums.

 

[142348]

When's the last time you grew up as a minority? You know nothing about it. Your stats should have been up to par for being a white male, and they weren't. Simple as that.

Until racial inequality is completely phased out---and you've got to be a fool if you believe that it doesn't exist anymore---URM's will continue to get an "edge" in the application process. And I use the term "edge" loosely given that URM's on average comprise a whopping 5% of a medical school's class. E.g., in my class of almost 200, there are 10-12 minorities (black, hispanic, etc.) combined.

Also, I can tell you that judging an applicant based on numbers/ECs alone is quite silly and NO medical school admissions committee does that. Applicants are more than just numbers/ECs. Numbers/ECs set a baseline for the committee to look at, but it's definitely not what will carry you into medical school--hence why there are interviews.

I'm ecstatic that you got into a DO school, but--although you say you are content--it doesn't seem as if you are given your response. It sounds like you're bitter that a black applicant was able to secure his/her spot in a med school class that only reserves 5% of its class for minorities while you weren't able to do the same with the 95% reserved for applicants like yourself.

Hopefully as you continue on in your medical education, you'll realize that some of the things you've said/thought at this current stage are just plain incorrect and not helpful for progression as a physician.

I can't speak for the other poster, but your attitude towardes them is inappropriate. I am a minority (though I am part of an overrepresented minority) and an attending who has gone through the process on both sides of the fence.

Med school admissions is a complex process as you note; however, with regards to those subjective factors and interview skills you allude to, do your really expect that over the past decade that as a group URM's always have a better set of these factors than whites/over represented minorities? What we do know based on the AAMC data is that over the same time period the objective factors for URMs are worse consistently and that the rate of acceptance at each point of GPA/MCAT is higher for URMs. You seem to believe that since URMs make up x% of the population, equality will only exist when the same x% make up med school classes regardless of how that happens. True equity would be if x% make up med school classes with no differences in admission criteria which is not the case; until then, it is unfair to those in the overrepresented applicants who most likely had nothing to do with the previous injustices towards URMs.

The ideal world is that we take the best students possible into med school regardless of race, gender, etc. and that we get the appropriate composition. Unfortunately, that isnt the case today; me I would lean towards taking the best applicants possible even if that means admitting 100% of one race, gender, etc. You seem to believe in a slope of achievement; we don't accept this slope to help whites/asians/etc. when it favors minorities so why should we in medicine/higher education?

 

[DoctaD]

So my question to everyone is what makes a good applicant? GPA MCAT EC? Why lets not play the role of the Adcom. They get to choose who they want to accept not us, they must see diversity as an important factor in their selection process. otherwise why do they not select the 4.0 and 38+ every time. If you accept that there is something about one stats that doesn't tell the whole story then please don't then turn around and compare a different set of stats.

 

[411309]

When's the last time you grew up as a minority? You know nothing about it. Your stats should have been up to par for being a white male, and they weren't. Simple as that.

Until racial inequality is completely phased out---and you've got to be a fool if you believe that it doesn't exist anymore---URM's will continue to get an "edge" in the application process. And I use the term "edge" loosely given that URM's on average comprise a whopping 5% of a medical school's class. E.g., in my class of almost 200, there are 10-12 minorities (black, hispanic, etc.) combined.

Also, I can tell you that judging an applicant based on numbers/ECs alone is quite silly and NO medical school admissions committee does that. Applicants are more than just numbers/ECs. Numbers/ECs set a baseline for the committee to look at, but it's definitely not what will carry you into medical school--hence why there are interviews.

I'm ecstatic that you got into a DO school, but--although you say you are content--it doesn't seem as if you are given your response. It sounds like you're bitter that a black applicant was able to secure his/her spot in a med school class that only reserves 5% of its class for minorities while you weren't able to do the same with the 95% reserved for applicants like yourself.

Hopefully as you continue on in your medical education, you'll realize that some of the things you've said/thought at this current stage are just plain incorrect and not helpful for progression as a physician.

Bitter? Clearly im not bitter at all. You are the one with the false ideas. You say only a limited amount of seats are reserved for URMs? That's bull****. Schools will take the best URMs they can get and will refuse the ones that arent competitive. The fact is that numbers wise asian>white>hispanic>AA. There are no "reserved seats". There are way fewer black applicants than white applicants which is part of the reason I believe URMs tend to have lower stats on average compared to other races. Fewer blacks want to pursue medicine. So because of this, it's ok to lower the bar and say "hey, it doesnt matter that your stats are outclassed by several other people well give you an interview and if you seem normal you're in". That's pretty much your logic. Im pretty sure 99% of the people that have interviews do ok at them and ECs/numbers plays the biggest role in decision time. You use edge loosely? Look at the matriculation date for URM vs White. So by your theory, a school only reserves 5% of their class for URMs. But yet the average matriculant for AA is like a 3.3/26. If seats were "reserved" specifically for minorities wouldnt they be a little more competitive to get and only the minorities with higher stats would be getting them?

You make another mistake. You assume that the experiences one black person goes through applies to the entire black race, which is another awful assumption. Not every minority has a hard life. I went to a poor school and lived in a poor town..and guess what? Im not a minority. It's like when people blame having lower stats on not being to afford an MCAT prep course or going to a subpar high school..it's just laughable. Who are you fooling? Def not me. Maybe yourself though. People will always find an excuse to fail, and sadly that excuse is never them. it's always everyone elses fault.

If racism isnt accepting a canidate because hes black then please help me understand what racism is.

For all of these people that claim URM status is fair because they had a tough life...boohoo. Cry me a river. I know all about tough, i paid for the entire admissions process myself by working 40+ hours a week while having 12-15 credit hour course loads. I suffered a lot of setbacks in my life but I never blamed others and just kept moving forward. But I dont qualify for URM status and I dont qualify for disadvantaged so in the admissions process that barely matters.

I feel more than priveleged to be going to a DO school and the only resentment I have is to systems like these that further drive wedges between races and plant seeds of resentment.

 

[jweezy225]

Bitter? Clearly im not bitter at all. You are the one with the false ideas. You say only a limited amount of seats are reserved for URMs? That's bull****. Schools will take the best URMs they can get and will refuse the ones that arent competitive. The fact is that numbers wise asian>white>hispanic>AA. There are no "reserved seats". There are way fewer black applicants than white applicants which is part of the reason I believe URMs tend to have lower stats on average compared to other races. Fewer blacks want to pursue medicine. So because of this, it's ok to lower the bar and say "hey, it doesnt matter that your stats are outclassed by several other people well give you an interview and if you seem normal you're in". That's pretty much your logic. Im pretty sure 99% of the people that have interviews do ok at them and ECs/numbers plays the biggest role in decision time. You use edge loosely? Look at the matriculation date for URM vs White. So by your theory, a school only reserves 5% of their class for URMs. But yet the average matriculant for AA is like a 3.3/26. If seats were "reserved" specifically for minorities wouldnt they be a little more competitive to get and only the minorities with higher stats would be getting them?

You make another mistake. You assume that the experiences one black person goes through applies to the entire black race, which is another awful assumption. Not every minority has a hard life. I went to a poor school and lived in a poor town..and guess what? Im not a minority. It's like when people blame having lower stats on not being to afford an MCAT prep course or going to a subpar high school..it's just laughable. Who are you fooling? Def not me. Maybe yourself though. People will always find an excuse to fail, and sadly that excuse is never them. it's always everyone elses fault.

If racism isnt accepting a canidate because hes black then please help me understand what racism is.

For all of these people that claim URM status is fair because they had a tough life...boohoo. Cry me a river. I know all about tough, i paid for the entire admissions process myself by working 40+ hours a week while having 12-15 credit hour course loads. I suffered a lot of setbacks in my life but I never blamed others and just kept moving forward. But I dont qualify for URM status and I dont qualify for disadvantaged so in the admissions process that barely matters.

I feel more than priveleged to be going to a DO school and the only resentment I have is to systems like these that further drive wedges between races and plant seeds of resentment.

Sorry to hear about how rough your life was. I'm sure it must have been tough to work 40+ hours a week while going to school. I'm happy that you didn't blame anyone else and kept moving forward. Sadly, the admissions committee didn't take notice of any of those severe hardships you endured since you're not URM. Hopefully the seed of resentment that was planted in you during the process doesn't blossom into a racist doc.

It's understandable why you're upset--I mean, look at everything terrible that happened to you during your application process. It's simply just not fair that URMs get an advantage when you've dealt with the same hardships if not so much more.

Clearly you have your opinions and they will not change despite anything that I say. Thankfully, though, people like you aren't on admissions committees. I'll leave it at that.

Best of luck with your medical education, and I hope you become the best doc you can be and help those in need!

 

[jweezy225]

The ideal world is that we take the best students possible into med school regardless of race, gender, etc. and that we get the appropriate composition. Unfortunately, that isnt the case today; me I would lean towards taking the best applicants possible even if that means admitting 100% of one race, gender, etc. You seem to believe in a slope of achievement; we don't accept this slope to help whites/asians/etc. when it favors minorities so why should we in medicine/higher education?

Why don't admissions committees have the same stellar ideals as yourself? What's wrong with them? Why not just employ such an easy solution as yours?

 

[142348]

So my question to everyone is what makes a good applicant? GPA MCAT EC? Why lets not play the role of the Adcom. They get to choose who they want to accept not us, they must see diversity as an important factor in their selection process. otherwise why do they not select the 4.0 and 38+ every time. If you accept that there is something about one stats that doesn't tell the whole story then please don't then turn around and compare a different set of stats.

How we define the best applicant is difficult to note but I think most schools are looking for applicants that become the best medical students they can get. How do you define a quality in a medical student? Most people would say that test scores, USMLE, and research are the key factors based on what residencies look for. Based on these assumptions, what data is out there shows that MCAT scores correlate with USMLE/step scores

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17509265

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16296216

Therefore, the arguement that often comes from this is take the applicants with the best MCAT/GPA as there is a correlate with future med school performance, ability to get into desired residency, etc.

 

[142348]

Why don't admissions committees have the same stellar ideals as yourself? What's wrong with them? Why not just employ such an easy solution as yours?

You're a med student, you don't even know what goes into the process from the other side. As an aside, your responses show nothing but someone with a chip on their shoulder with little evidence or experience in medicine to justify your position, hopefully you learn to have a little respect for others, especially attending physicians

Having been involved with residency selection, what I can tell you is that we primarily look at USMLE scores/class rank/research first and much less worry about other subjective factors . What correlates with USMLE/rank: pre-med MCAT scores (see above pubmed references).

That being said, admission comittees have adopted the URM standard and it is unlikely to change until the Supreme Court rules later this year and even then who knows.

 

[jweezy225]

You're a med student, you don't even know what goes into the process from the other side. As an aside, your responses show nothing but someone with a chip on their shoulder with little evidence or experience in medicine to justify your position, hopefully you learn to have a little respect for others, especially attending physicians

Having been involved with residency selection, what I can tell you is that we primarily look at USMLE scores/class rank/research first and much less worry about other subjective factors . What correlates with USMLE/rank: pre-med MCAT scores (see above pubmed references).

That being said, admission comittees have adopted the URM standard and it is unlikely to change until the Supreme Court rules later this year and even then who knows.

I have lots of genuine respect for others--I have no idea what you're talking about. If anything, saying that one is resentful towards URMs because of how the system works is pretty disrespectful in my opinion. Anyway, residency selection isn't medical school selection--but you're right, though, the best I've done is speak with physicians at my institution that are on the admissions board. So, I personally don't know much of what goes on besides what I've been told.

I'm not sure what people want on this forum. For URMs to say how bad they stink? For URMs to apologize to non-URMs? Like, I'm just torn. It saddens me at times when I read these forums and I see how upset people are at URMs for (what I believe to be) no reason.

I hate arguing about this subject because opinions rarely change. I don't even know why I responded to this post to begin with. I just wish this topic would stop coming up over and over again. The horse has been thoroughly beaten. It's dead. The admissions process is a crapshoot, and the ones that made it worked hard and had a bit of luck. That's how I feel. That's my opinion that wont change.

Again, if you take/took offense to the things I say/I've said--which I find not to be offensive at all--then I apologize.

 

[142348]

I have lots of genuine respect for others--I have no idea what you're talking about. If anything, saying that one is resentful towards URMs because of how the system works is pretty disrespectful in my opinion. Anyway, residency selection isn't medical school selection--but you're right, though, the best I've done is speak with physicians at my institution that are on the admissions board. So, I personally don't know much of what goes on besides what I've been told.

I'm not sure what people want on this forum. For URMs to say how bad they stink? For URMs to apologize to non-URMs? Like, I'm just torn. It saddens me at times when I read these forums and I see how upset people are at URMs for (what I believe to be) no reason.

I hate arguing about this subject because opinions rarely change. I don't even know why I responded to this post to begin with. I just wish this topic would stop coming up over and over again. The horse has been thoroughly beaten. It's dead. The admissions process is a crapshoot, and the ones that made it worked hard and had a bit of luck. That's how I feel. That's my opinion that wont change.

Again, if you take/took offense to the things I say/I've said--which I find not to be offensive at all--then I apologize.

You responses to me and the previous poster didn't show a lot of respect in my book, but ill take your word that you meant none. I agree that people are pretty entrenched in their positions and unlikely to change. You wonder why it keeps being brought up: the reality is from your end the system is working right as rain but for applicants who are over-represented, the system is not. You imply that the ones that made it worked hard and got a bit of luck but the data argues otherwise. It says that if two applicants, one Asian and one a URM both worked hard and produced the same objective outcomes GPA/MCAT that the URM is far more likely to be admitted. Thats not a bit of luck, thats rigging the deck.

To quote chief justice roberts, "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” Eliminate it from the equation completely and let the admissions be based on the hard work of the applicant, not on their race. For years, defenders of civil rights demanded equal protections but now you and others are protecting a program that works against equal protection for med school applicants in favor of URMs. If a program was in place today that did the opposite, the ACLU, etc. would be up in arms so fast it would make your head spin, but since it discriminates against caucasians and a successful minority group (Asians) its alright.

 

[479260]

I am of the opinion that if Affirmative Action is to be eliminated, then other factors which could be used to form a supposed bias in job selection, school selection, etc. should be eliminated from all application processes everywhere.The NAMES, socio-economic status, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of people who apply for anything (jobs, educational positions, colleges/medical schools/etc.) shouldn't be taken into account either. It's only fair. Why only strike down a law that was intended help increase African American representation in certain areas of our nation's workforce and educational institutions without addressing the hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases held many individuals that may help non-minorities succeed in virtually every other aspect of modern society? To only advocate for the elimination of Affirmative Action while keeping 'everything else' the same in society REEKS of selective outrage.

 

[FcFabRegion]

I am of the opinion that if Affirmative Action is to be eliminated, then other factors which could be used to form a supposed bias in job selection, school selection, etc. should be eliminated from all application processes everywhere.The NAMES, socio-economic status, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of people who apply for anything (jobs, educational positions, colleges/medical schools/etc.) shouldn't be taken into account either. It's only fair. Why only strike down a law that was intended help increase African American representation in certain areas of our nation's workforce and educational institutions without addressing the hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases held many individuals that may help non-minorities succeed in virtually every other aspect of modern society? To only advocate for the elimination of Affirmative Action while keeping 'everything else' the same in society REEKS of selective outrage.

.

 

[jweezy225]

I am of the opinion that if Affirmative Action is to be eliminated, then other factors which could be used to form a supposed bias in job selection, school selection, etc. should be eliminated from all application processes everywhere.The NAMES, socio-economic status, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of people who apply for anything (jobs, educational positions, colleges/medical schools/etc.) shouldn't be taken into account either. It's only fair. Why only strike down a law that was intended help increase African American representation in certain areas of our nation's workforce and educational institutions without addressing the hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases held many individuals that may help non-minorities succeed in virtually every other aspect of modern society? To only advocate for the elimination of Affirmative Action while keeping 'everything else' the same in society REEKS of selective outrage.

 

[142348]

I am of the opinion that if Affirmative Action is to be eliminated, then other factors which could be used to form a supposed bias in job selection, school selection, etc. should be eliminated from all application processes everywhere.The NAMES, socio-economic status, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of people who apply for anything (jobs, educational positions, colleges/medical schools/etc.) shouldn't be taken into account either. It's only fair. Why only strike down a law that was intended help increase African American representation in certain areas of our nation's workforce and educational institutions without addressing the hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases held many individuals that may help non-minorities succeed in virtually every other aspect of modern society? To only advocate for the elimination of Affirmative Action while keeping 'everything else' the same in society REEKS of selective outrage.

In terms of eliminating other forms of bias, I agree. Removing names (essentially blinding schools to names) would essentially go hand in hand with removing URM status as it would prevent schools from selecting race by names. Religion goes without saying. I don't know how you eliminate socioeconomic status; applications dont focus on individual or parents incomes and there really is no way to account for the indrect impact of socioeconomic status. Peoples CVs will have their education summary, grades, research, etc. which are all to some degree or another impacted by socioeconomic status so I dont know how you eliminate its influence. I think you simply accept the facts as they are and make no attempt at looking for socioeconomic status in applicants. If this was done, admissions would be based strictly on what applicants achieved objectively, with no relative shades of grey, in a more apples to apples comparison.

in terms of your last sentence, your summary seems to be that since there are other systems in place that are wrong that we should keep using a URM system that is wrong to achieve some kind of balance. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, how does that help minorities like Asians who face many of the "hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases " you note, but dont get any benefit from URM status because their predecssors were successful. There were certainly injustices in the past and we would be naive to forget them but the current URM system punishes a new generation for the mistakes of the past.

 

[DoctaJay]

There is an extremely strong chance that the supreme court will strike down AA later this year. When that occurs, either of 2 things will occur 1)Medical schools will wipe their hands clean and only accept based on numbers, ivy league status, parent's name, LORs, etc 2)Medical schools will attempt to find the loop holes that will invariably be within the law, without overtly breaking it to not see their diversity plummet. It will be interesting.

Being part of the admissions process as a medical student made me realize how diverse applicants really are. Do you how many non-black applicants are out there with sub-30 MCAT scores? More than you think. It was also interesting going through medical school and seeing folks have to repeat who had >30 MCAT scores. I also saw a lot of sub-30 MCAT score folks fail out.

I say all this to stress while it may be tougher in the future for minorities to get in if AA is outlawed, the MCAT doesn't equal your future. Myself and many others who did okay on the MCAT but killed Step 1 can attest. You just have to get in. Bantering back and forth as to what is fair is ridiculous. Admission committee folks will do as they please until the law tells them otherwise. Just do your best to have the best application possible. If it is meant to be then it will be. Just my .02

 

[Aby Woods]

lol... We are splitting hairs at that point.

african's hold 90% of the degrees held within the black community in America. I moved here from Africa when I was 14. There are a LOT of similarities and differences between the cultures and a lot of different cultures in Africa to boot!

 

[BillBillington]

Not gonna lie. I hope AA hangs on till I apply to med-school. I have my opinions on it that you'd be surprised to hear, but who wouldn't take a helping hand to achieve their dreams?

All the same, I am a first Gen American. So I can relate to what some are saying about foreigners taking advantage of opportunities. It sucks that I know absolutely no doctors. Other than applying for a volunteer job or switching to a nurse ,and in both cases trying desperately to befriend a DR., I have no clue how I'm gonna be able to shadow or get a letter of rec. So I see how minority students would be disadvantaged there.

On the other hand, I am here because my mother wanted a better life for me and being a doctor is my goal. So I will use every and all resources available to make that happen.

 

[BillBillington]

I am of the opinion that if Affirmative Action is to be eliminated, then other factors which could be used to form a supposed bias in job selection, school selection, etc. should be eliminated from all application processes everywhere.The NAMES, socio-economic status, religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of people who apply for anything (jobs, educational positions, colleges/medical schools/etc.) shouldn't be taken into account either. It's only fair. Why only strike down a law that was intended help increase African American representation in certain areas of our nation's workforce and educational institutions without addressing the hidden, cultural, and/or personal biases held many individuals that may help non-minorities succeed in virtually every other aspect of modern society? To only advocate for the elimination of Affirmative Action while keeping 'everything else' the same in society REEKS of selective outrage.

Funny, i expected more from aspiring/current med-students.

The fact of the matter is that AA helps mostly white Women and black women. Basically women in general since they are the most under represented minority in most cases. I agree with what you are saying but the part about black people benefiting is wrong. Kinda like the welfare stereotype. Whites are on welfare about the same as blacks.

Listen, i agree with your premise. People should be judged on skill and intelligence with no bearing on race or gender. But saying AA is designed to help blacks is W.R.O.N.G

 

[142348]

Funny, i expected more from aspiring/current med-students.

The fact of the matter is that AA helps mostly white Women and black women. Basically women in general since they are the most under represented minority in most cases. I agree with what you are saying but the part about black people benefiting is wrong. Kinda like the welfare stereotype. Whites are on welfare about the same as blacks.

Listen, i agree with your premise. People should be judged on skill and intelligence with no bearing on race or gender. But saying AA is designed to help blacks is W.R.O.N.G

Problem is the data (for med schools) does not support this. The AAMC data has consistently shown that URMs (african american and hispanic) independent of gender are accepted at a higher frequency with lower scores than caucaians and ORMs such as asians. AA/URM was designed for the purpose of helping those under represented, including african americans and hispanics.

 

[murfettie]

can only AA physicains mentor AA kids
sometimes I want to volunteer at this place in East Harlem, but then I feel dumb because I'm Asian.

 

[iave9963]

can only AA physicains mentor AA kids
sometimes I want to volunteer at this place in East Harlem, but then I feel dumb because I'm Asian.

Absolutely not, I'd say go for it. As long as the kids feel that you genuinely care, you can develop a profound connection with them.

 

[BillBillington]

Problem is the data (for med schools) does not support this. The AAMC data has consistently shown that URMs (african american and hispanic) independent of gender are accepted at a higher frequency with lower scores than caucaians and ORMs such as asians. AA/URM was designed for the purpose of helping those under represented, including african americans and hispanics.

That is because Black males are currently underrepresented compared to population. If for some reason whites or Asians just all decided to attend law school then that would shift. It isn't targeting blacks only. Only whatever race is underrepresented. There is a distinct difference.

The day that 500,000 Blacks apply for med-school and only 1,000 Asians apply but schools still accept Blacks at a higher rate, let me know. Until then it really isn't a (We only want blacks/Hispanics) thing. Also, Hispanic is not a race.

 

[lazymd]

african's hold 90% of the degrees held within the black community in America. I moved here from Africa when I was 14. There are a LOT of similarities and differences between the cultures and a lot of different cultures in Africa to boot!

Either site your source or stop embarrassing yourself with that ridiculous statistic.

 

[142348]

That is because Black males are currently underrepresented compared to population. If for some reason whites or Asians just all decided to attend law school then that would shift. It isn't targeting blacks only. Only whatever race is underrepresented. There is a distinct difference.

The day that 500,000 Blacks apply for med-school and only 1,000 Asians apply but schools still accept Blacks at a higher rate, let me know. Until then it really isn't a (We only want blacks/Hispanics) thing. Also, Hispanic is not a race.

This is the crux of the arguement. You and others on this board believe that because AA are underrepresented with respect to population that this justifies a lowering of standard for acceptance (based on objective scores from AAMC) as noted by the higher percentages of AA and Hispanics admitted at each respective GPA/MCAT. I, and many others, argue that this is ridiculous and medical schools should be taking the best applicants available regardless of underrepresented or overrepresented. To quote chief justice roberts "the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

 

[iave9963]

Either site your source or stop embarrassing yourself with that ridiculous statistic.

+1

 

[BillBillington]

This is the crux of the arguement. You and others on this board believe that because AA are underrepresented with respect to population that this justifies a lowering of standard for acceptance (based on objective scores from AAMC) as noted by the higher percentages of AA and Hispanics admitted at each respective GPA/MCAT. I, and many others, argue that this is ridiculous and medical schools should be taking the best applicants available regardless of underrepresented or overrepresented. To quote chief justice roberts "the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

Umm, No. I don't believe that. Understanding something and believing in it are separate. I too believe that a person should be considered based on skill PERIOD. If that rule was changed I would not complain at all. All I am saying is that this isn't an AA targeted thing. That is all. Rid that from your mind. It targets underrepresented races. Not Blacks exclusively.

I will say this. With a projected physician shortage and a growing elderly population, I feel that med-schools need to lower the bar a bit for all and build some more schools. I get it, people want smart doctors. But your grades in college and MCAT scores do not grantee that you are gonna be a good doctor. If I had a choice between...

1. A person who scored 40 on the MCAT and 4.0 GPA but barely graduated med school

or 2. A person who got a 3.0 and 30 but did extremely well and graduated at the top of the medical class.

I want number 2. Too many people feel that getting straight A's in Chem, Bio and passing a test that tests your understanding on BASIC college courses means that you will be the best. We need to stop that. The only thing that really matters is how well a person learns during their 4 years of med school and their residency/ fellowship. And again, we need to get more docs out there. There should be no reason that so many A students with excellent credentials get turned away for any reason. So forgive me if I think that the bar being artificially raised so high just to get into med-school while we are hurting for doctors is a bad thing all around.

 

[142348]

Umm, No. I don't believe that. Understanding something and believing in it are separate. I too believe that a person should be considered based on skill PERIOD. If that rule was changed I would not complain at all. All I am saying is that this isn't an AA targeted thing. That is all. Rid that from your mind. It targets underrepresented races. Not Blacks exclusively.

I will say this. With a projected physician shortage and a growing elderly population, I feel that med-schools need to lower the bar a bit for all and build some more schools. I get it, people want smart doctors. But your grades in college and MCAT scores do not grantee that you are gonna be a good doctor. If I had a choice between...

1. A person who scored 40 on the MCAT and 4.0 GPA but barely graduated med school

or 2. A person who got a 3.0 and 30 but did extremely well and graduated at the top of the medical class.

I want number 2. Too many people feel that getting straight A's in Chem, Bio and passing a test that tests your understanding on BASIC college courses means that you will be the best. We need to stop that. The only thing that really matters is how well a person learns during their 4 years of med school and their residency/ fellowship. And again, we need to get more docs out there. There should be no reason that so many A students with excellent credentials get turned away for any reason. So forgive me if I think that the bar being artificially raised so high just to get into med-school while we are hurting for doctors is a bad thing all around.

You're a pre-med and as such have limited experience about how medicine really works. If you read my comments fully you will see I never made it about african americans only and incorporated all of URMs into the discussion.read my comments again, never once do I target out AAs with most of comments based on the AAMC data for AAs and hispanics. If you dont want to believe the fact that URMs are accepted at a higher frequency than whites/Asians with the same score thats your choice, but the objective numbers say differently. You previously said "The day that 500,000 Blacks apply for med-school and only 1,000 Asians apply but schools still accept Blacks at a higher rate, let me know. Until then it really isn't" implying that URM status is okay but then if your most recent post say " I too believe that a person should be considered based on skill PERIOD." Which is it? It shouldn't matter if thre are 100,000 Asians and 20 URMs applying, take the best students and if that leads to 70% women or men and 70% Asians or whites or URMs so be it.

As for your choice a vs. choice b discussion, there is no crystal ball to predict who will be a better physician. That being said medical schools are looking to train the best student doctors not physicians, and surrogates for that include where students match and their board scores. Coincidentally, MCAT and undergraduate scores are what correlate with board and shelf scores which are then used in residency selection so it stands to reason that these objective measures have validity and we dont usually see a 1 vs. 2 that you presented. Does it happen, sure, but the statistics say that the those that score well objectively as undergrads are more likely to as med students than someone who didnt as an undergrad.

Finally, there is a misconception regarding the doctor shortage. The reality is that we have a maldistribution problem particularly when it comes to sub-specialists. Go to the suburbs of NYC, Boston, Chicago, LA, major cities and you will find too many specialists. Also, look at areas with better tort reform and you will see more specialists (ex. Missouri vs. southern illinois). Moving forward, we have already increased the number of med students (see increased enrollment and number of new med schools in last 10 years) and we are better served by stimulating physicians to move to under served areas rather than simply increasing the dearth of physicians in major metropolitan areas.

 

[iave9963]

I find it amazing how all these threads can get turned into an AA debate of some kind. At the end of the day, if someone gets in because of (X) (Y) (Z)..... that person is still in. If they aren't meant to be there, time will tell. Jeez, can't we all just get along people.

 

[BillBillington]

You're a pre-med and as such have limited experience about how medicine really works. If you read my comments fully you will see I never made it about african americans only and incorporated all of URMs into the discussion.read my comments again, never once do I target out AAs with most of comments based on the AAMC data for AAs and hispanics. If you dont want to believe the fact that URMs are accepted at a higher frequency than whites/Asians with the same score thats your choice, but the objective numbers say differently. You previously said "The day that 500,000 Blacks apply for med-school and only 1,000 Asians apply but schools still accept Blacks at a higher rate, let me know. Until then it really isn't" implying that URM status is okay but then if your most recent post say " I too believe that a person should be considered based on skill PERIOD." Which is it? It shouldn't matter if thre are 100,000 Asians and 20 URMs applying, take the best students and if that leads to 70% women or men and 70% Asians or whites or URMs so be it.

As for your choice a vs. choice b discussion, there is no crystal ball to predict who will be a better physician. That being said medical schools are looking to train the best student doctors not physicians, and surrogates for that include where students match and their board scores. Coincidentally, MCAT and undergraduate scores are what correlate with board and shelf scores which are then used in residency selection so it stands to reason that these objective measures have validity and we dont usually see a 1 vs. 2 that you presented. Does it happen, sure, but the statistics say that the those that score well objectively as undergrads are more likely to as med students than someone who didnt as an undergrad.

Finally, there is a misconception regarding the doctor shortage. The reality is that we have a maldistribution problem particularly when it comes to sub-specialists. Go to the suburbs of NYC, Boston, Chicago, LA, major cities and you will find too many specialists. Also, look at areas with better tort reform and you will see more specialists (ex. Missouri vs. southern illinois). Moving forward, we have already increased the number of med students (see increased enrollment and number of new med schools in last 10 years) and we are better served by stimulating physicians to move to under served areas rather than simply increasing the dearth of physicians in major metropolitan areas.

Kay. My only point was that URM does not specifically target AA's. As long as we both agree on that. There really isn't much else to talk about. That was my whole point that I have maintained since my first post. So there really isn't (wasn't) any real point arguing if we both agree on that.

Here is the quote just to remind you that I was talking about Affirmative Action targeting blacks specifically:
"Listen, i agree with your premise. People should be judged on skill and intelligence with no bearing on race or gender. But saying AA is designed to help blacks is W.R.O.N.G"

And I'll say it again. Understanding why something is the way it is, does not mean I agree with it. So there is no need to answer your question "Which is it?"

Also, I do not know you, and you do not know me. For all I know you could be Chief of medicine in a Hospital or just some kid. Same for me. So please do not assume that you know my level of understanding of the world of medicine. Especially since we pretty much agree on my main point that you decided to reply on.

Take care. Good chat.

 

[BillBillington]

Back on topic.

I think the response from (gostudy) was spot on. The fact remains that few URM candidates usually have any real influence when it comes to medicine. I know in my experience, the only response that i could get from many was "You want to be a doc? It will never happen." etc etc...

Not saying all minorities have it like that. Just saying that the majority seems to be similar to what I have experienced. People really think they can be anything as kids, but as they grow the outside influences set in and suddenly the idea of having a "prestigious" career seems like a pipe dream. So many don't even try. And many who are smart enough opt to be something else. When you look at the total picture it really seems insane that docs have to go through so much for a small sliver of hope to make it, but a good business person could wind up in a CEO position way down the line making possibly 10X as much while working less and not having to worry about paying malpractice, student loans, and CME's etc. So yeah, it all comes together and when you have few applying in the first place it all results in a tiny amount even giving it a shot.

So for some reason the ones in charge feel that doctors need to be diverse. It has its merits and is a somewhat noble goal. If that is what they want then yes, they would have to lover the bar for admittance to achieve that goal. The bottom line is that it is hard enough for anyone to become a doctor and URM's have all that plus the cultural/ social obstacles to face.

Basically, There are so many possible reasons that you cannot just pinpoint a few that apply to all. And even the ones that apply to some, also apply to those from other groups.

 

[investing101]

I grew up in a very bad school system with black people making up about 40% of student population. I can honestly say that 99% of that population did not appreciate an education.

 

[justalittlestar]

I grew up in a very bad school system with black people making up about 40% of student population. I can honestly say that 99% of that population did not appreciate an education.

How could you possibly know whether someone appreciates an education or not

 

[investing101]

Believe me there is nothing more obvious. "coming from first hand experience in a mostly black school system"

 

[justalittlestar]

Believe me there is nothing more obvious. "coming from first hand experience in a mostly black school system"

I guess I understand why you feel that way but IMO there are often factors that go into why black youth may appear unmotivated in school and outside of school. I don't necessarily perceive that as being unappreciative of an education. Their priorities are misplaced perhaps.

 

[btrlov]

As a black person whom grew up in the Bronx and Harlem in the 90s. I can say that it boils down to several factors.

1)Yes, some local schools in minority communities are sub-par as compared to private, catholic, and preparatory schools in more suburban areas. For example, My public high school had only ONE AP CLASS.Which was calculus. That AP had to be taken at another school on your own time.My school emphasized passing standardized exams, and classes emphasized that respectively. For instance teachers prepped for Earth Science rather than Chemistry. Teachers encouraged taking Earth Science Regents rather than Chemistry...because is was an easier subject. I had an economics teacher, that let the entire class socialize for THE ENTIRE PERIOD. We learned nothing about economics in my senior year. In all, Black households tend not to have the income to reinforce that poor education.Even though I was one of the few that passed the Math Regents, i had to take 3 college preparatory classes before i could take calculus. Not to mention, i was totally unprepared for Gen Chem and Gen Bio.I went to SBU, most of my roommates were Asian and white. I was the only black in the 6 person quad, and probably one of 3 black males on the entire floor .Their HSs were in Long Island, Rockland and Northern Queens, One roommate is a lawyer, 2 are med school, one is a medical officer in the military, another works for the United Nations, another Computer Scientist in Upstate NY, u get my drift......Right now im playing catch up because i had a child and a stint in Military/ TSA. Nonetheless, I cant blame it all on the public school system, some of it is personal responsibility.

2)Destruction of the family unit. Single parent household. I was raised by a single parent, who was raised by a single parent. That lack additional encouragement, that added resource puts you at a disadvantage when applying to college. Black families tend to have little discretionary income for their college students.Our parents tend not to take out student loans for their kids for more expensive schools.They encourage free(via financial aid) community colleges. I can remember only one student going to an expensive college; Brown university out of 4 graduating classes. That student was African. Most of my classmates are now single parents themselves working low-wage jobs. American family units have been declining overall, but it's particularly bad in the urban black community.

3)Culture, Peer pressure and lack of realistic goals.Blacks spent their money on sneakers and clothes, spent their time chasing girls and guys, trying to be cool,sexy, and gangster or the next baller/rapper/singer.This behavior continues even after HS. This is not all blacks, but this is how it was in HS and in community colleges that i have personally visited.

4) Lack of aspiration, lingering covert racism. When I young, I was told that when your black you have to work twice as hard, to make it in this world. I didn't believe this until i got older and saw that most middle income black persons worked for the government or in a Union.Blacks outside those sectors, worked low-waged jobs. I cant think of one successful black person in my family that's not in a union or in a government institution. These two entities tend to raise incomes, and have little subjective criteria such as likeability,fit etc.NYPD, NYCDOC,DOE,MTA, MILITARY, UNION LABOR to give some examples. A civil service list number, or union seniority are not subject to opinion! I work in UPS, Blacks are overrepresented in union labor but underrepresented in management. I asked by self what is the difference. Is it that blacks lack aspiration for management or they are simply not selected for those positions. My bet is its a little of both.Today, I ask myself will get I hired with basic education, or do I have to go the extra mile to get that same job a white person would easily get with a regular college degree. I really don't know

 

[Medstart108]

Not gonna lie. I hope AA hangs on till I apply to med-school. I have my opinions on it that you'd be surprised to hear, but who wouldn't take a helping hand to achieve their dreams?

All the same, I am a first Gen American. So I can relate to what some are saying about foreigners taking advantage of opportunities. It sucks that I know absolutely no doctors. Other than applying for a volunteer job or switching to a nurse ,and in both cases trying desperately to befriend a DR., I have no clue how I'm gonna be able to shadow or get a letter of rec. So I see how minority students would be disadvantaged there.

On the other hand, I am here because my mother wanted a better life for me and being a doctor is my goal. So I will use every and all resources available to make that happen.

Not trying to attack you personally, but AA was designed to help struggling minorities that had been in america for generations. Your story would seem deserving of AA until you realize that the vast majority of asians are all 1st, 2nd generation americans as well. They are also a minority in every sense of the word except they happen to have a strong work ethic and do well in school. African immigrants often do just as well in school as asian immigrants. Its not your race that determines whether or not you should get AA, its how you were brought up.

Why are immigrants more successful? Well, immigrants, especially economic migrants are chosen because they are likely to be successful in the U.S. They often have university degrees, are professionals or are already successful in their own country. Of course, they will instill those hard working traits and lessons into their children and will try to provide the best opportunities for their children through (better schools, tutors).

AA should be based on your socio-economic class not your race. I completely understand someone who was born in a poor neighbourhood, who went to a school that couldn't afford textbooks and had parents who couldn't afford to buy books or didn't have the education to tutor them deserving help through AA. What I can't understand is a poor white/asian person who has gone through the same struggles, not benefiting from AA while a wealthy black/hispanic immigrant with connections, pedigree etc. will benefit from the full extent of AA.

 

[iave9963]

AA should be based on your socio-economic class not your race. I completely understand someone who was born in a poor neighbourhood, who went to a school that couldn't afford textbooks and had parents who couldn't afford to buy books or didn't have the education to tutor them deserving help through AA. What I can't understand is a poor white/asian person who has gone through the same struggles, not benefiting from AA while a wealthy black/hispanic immigrant with connections, pedigree etc. will benefit from the full extent of AA.

Exactly, I was debating with one of my friends about who really receives the benefits of AA. Low income afro-americans,hispanics, etc or those from more affluent backgrounds.

 

[UoCfin]

Speaking as an African,,,i want you all to accept my proposal based on the fact that am that guy who observes all this from an outside point of view (i consider myself just a little bit affected by it coz we have our own struggles per say).

Here goes my take on the original question posted.
Compare two nations Japan and say Uganda (my home)
One bombarded in world war II...recovered...
One gained independence from British rule in the 60s...recovering...

Why the two different aftermaths. Now we all know there are intellectual responses to all this and straight up in your face**street responses to this junk.

But i ask you. Why does it take Japan after the whole place is trashed by war that its back on the map in relatively the same time that Uganda has gained independence and is still crawling when it comes to development.

Some things to horn in on:
1. The leadership
2. Resources.
3. Cultural conventions.
4. Corruption.
5. Interior investment.
6. Advancement.

Now take that and compare it to the two demographics here in the west. The affluent vs. the indigent. Apply those same 6 points listed above. Tell me what you think.

I say to you (you my black brother and sister)...wake up...wake up. My parents and I didn't come here with the mindset that they will feed off the reserves of the people who were born here. They are more deserving of what is theres. We are to work to the ashes of our bones. But my tears flow every time i see my brother or sister wasting anytime out there in the street thinking success is embodied in the prohibited (most of which destroys the same overstressed communities in which our folks reside). Wake up...the Asian is not going to wait for you, he is going to plant a convenient store on every corner in your neighbourhood and drain you for all you got, in return destroy liver for which some intelling kid on SDN will treat 20 years later and get paid doing what he loves. Wake up, the white folk will not wait for you and can't continuously be blamed for our struggles (imagine a 40 year old man who still argues with his mom and dad over the minute issues)...grow up. Wake up my brother and sister...even the hispanics are by-passing us...and they face the same struggles we face or in many cases even greater.

am done...

 

[Negusä Nägäs]

Imagine......... these posters are the future "healers" that hold our lives in their hands.

 

[jt66250]

Imagine......... these posters are the future "healers" that hold our lives in their hands.

Scary huh? As someone who was raised in the 'hood and have lived all of my adult life outside of it, I have a very interesting perspective. I think AA should be abolished as soon as you put an equitable system in place, because the old system wasn't and neither is AA. Ask me and I will tell you what I think the new system should be. I don't buy into the lack of good education or lack of opportunity as I do lack of knowledge of opportunity. I have found that students who show their desire to learn will be drawn to teachers who want to help them succeed, and subsequently drawn into situations that will help them succeed.

In my experience, my first time through, most high GPA black students wanted the quick payoff, which is why the 2 4.0 Magna Cum Laude guys I went to high school choose JD and civil engineering as their fields. Even myself, with degrees with business and accounting, choose to work instead of going to grad school or law school, which were considerations at the time I graduated. Now that I'm back in undergrad, getting my grades and education shored up to go to med school, I rarely see African American students who pursue careers in medicine as doctors. It was funny when I decided to change careers and started back, people would ask, why not NP or PA, its quicker. Still the quick payoff mentality working in their minds. I am not becoming a physician for a quick payoff, I am becoming one to make a difference in the lives of those who I will care for, and those who I influence to pursue their dream fearlessly till they reach them. There will be no greater satisfaction than graduating med school and finishing residency and being an MD/DO for the rest of my life, and there is no quick payoff worth missing out on the experience.

 

[MissBrownEyedGirl]

I was wondering why are there so few blacks in medicine...is there not enough qualified applicants or is there a cap limit?

I have read through many of the posts and responses and agree on a few points and will add some additional points. As an AA female working in academic medicine, I see doctors and medical students every day as part of my job. I'm also college educated. I encouraged my daughter to pursue medicine because I know what the future holds for earning potential and prestige. This is not usually the case in many AA homes. There is a great divide between AA homes...you have the very poor with no hope, you have the middle class like myself and the very wealthy. I think the med schools are filled with those from the middle class and wealthy AA families but the vast majority of AAs still live in poverty and thus the access to superior education and influence is just not there. This is something that can be changed over time.

the other point I want to make is that medical school admission criteria considers more than just the mcat and gpa. Those are baseline indicators of how well one might do in medical school and there is a bottom and there is a top and everything in between. Med schools want well rounded socially intelligent driven individuals. Sometimes students with those high mcats and GPAs are awkward and weird (not all) and socially inept. this is why the in person interview is so important. Some schools have even implemented case scenario's to see how a group of potential applicants might handle a certain scenario. What they don't like is that high achieving white pompus who will stab his fellow student in the back to get ahead. Even with his or her high scores, the schools will PASS on that applicant in favor of someone who can be molded into a fine physician. I work alongside some of the finest physicians in the world and the truth of the matter (they tell me) is that mcat is no predictor of the caliber of doctor a student will turn out to be.

 

[Eokpar02]

Black parents in America put virtually no emphasis on cognitive tasks for their children. If black children were raised by Asian parents, who put emphasis on cognitive tasks, there would be no problems whatsoever.

 

[TheFutureTopDoc]

As a black male at a PWI, I have had many professors/advisers try to talk me out of medicine. I'm consistently told to "set the bar lower and be more realistic" despite my 3.8 GPA / 34 MCAT. Because of this advice I have contemplated changing my career path numerous times but thank God I didn't. I've currently been accepted to 5 medical schools including some top ranked schools like Mt. Sinai and University of Michigan. Perhaps this kind of discouragement from "advisers" helps contribute to the low numbers.

Lets also not forget that we are only one generation removed from eugenics. Our parents and grandparents witnessed these horrific events at the hands of physicians, so why would they encourage their kids to be physicians?

There is also the issue of legacy. ("Have your parents or siblings attended XX School of Medicine") Our parents and grandparents were not ALLOWED to attend medical schools therefore AA's are not granted the same privileges of legacy.

 

[Tee Cell]

I think its multifactorial of course. Personally, I think a major contribution is the lack of emphasis the black community places on education. We placed the wrong individuals on a pedestal. So just from a volume point of view there are just fewer blacks entering higher education. Of the ones that do they are dispersed into law, engineering, business, medicine, etc. As far as I am concerned the solution is to treat our doctors, lawyers, and engineers as we do our athletes and musicians. Then we would see an increase in not only Black doctors but Black professionals.

 

[Tippytoe]

I will admit that I didn't read every post. But a summary answer follows. And it is probably politically incorrect but is 100% factual.

The simple reason there are not many blacks in medical school (same as optometry, dental and all professional level programs) is a basic lack of supply.

1. About 50% of black males have a criminal record (presumably disqualifying them).
2. The average IQ of African-Americans is 85. (Only about 2% score at 115 or above needed for advanced study.)
3. Blacks make up only 13% of the American population.

These 3 facts alone-- combined with the desire-- leaves a very small number of potential black applicants to spread out among all the professional schools. All schools search high and low to find African-American students. There just isn't a big pool to recruit from. I had one black female in my class of 120 Optometry students.