Will the FIRE movement cause a shortage of pain doctors?

[drusso]

Will FIRE Discourage Doctors From Practicing Medicine?

I am a huge proponent of the FIRE movement, especially for physicians. For the uninitiated, FIRE stands for “Financial Independence, Retire Early.”...

www.doximity.com

"The beautiful thing about FIRE for physicians is that the formula is quite simple. If you save at least 20% of your gross income and invest it wisely in passive index funds, you will practice medicine and ultimately retire on your own terms. And not only will you improve your own financial and overall well-being, but you will inspire others to do the same."

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[DOctorJay]

If they aren’t going to love us back after all we’ve sacrificed then we will walk away as soon as we can. We aren’t as stupid as they think we are.

 

[SSdoc33]

FIRE doesnt work all that well with a wife and kids. My wife appears to single handedly be keeping amazon in business.

 

[DOctorJay]

FIRE doesnt work all that well with a wife and kids. My wife appears to single handedly be keeping amazon in business.

Gotta divert the 20% before it hits the checking account that the wifey sees.

 

[SSdoc33]

Gotta divert the 20% before it hits the checking account that the wifey sees.

Dont think that will help. She doesnt even look in the bank account....

 

[drusso]

FIRE doesnt work all that well with a wife and kids. My wife appears to single handedly be keeping amazon in business.

This is what the prenup was for. Financial and political compatibility must come first.

 

[SSdoc33]

This is what the prenup was for. Financial and political compatibility must come first.

Well. Seeing as how all our money had been saved during the marraige, a prenup really means zilch. Neither of us had any net worth at that point.

Regardless, its not that the wife and kids spend exorbitantly. Its that in order to retire early, you have to control expenses and save a ton. Its just much more difficult to do when you have 3 separate 529 plans, summer camps, sporting equipment, clothes, birthday gifts, cars, insurance, etc.

This FIRE stuff is not a new idea.

Plus, i cant imagine Drusso would actually retire early. Isnt is too late for that already? More of an ideal than an actual reality

 

[bedrock]

If they aren’t going to love us back after all we’ve sacrificed then we will walk away as soon as we can. We aren’t as stupid as they think we are.

Agree. There is so much of life beyond work particularly when people who failed high school biology think they should be able to tell us how to practice medicine.

I’m definitely going to retire before age 60. Many other things I want to do.

 

[Agast]

Drusso works from 5:00 am to 9 pm. If he retired tomorrow he’d still functionally be retiring as a 79-year-old.

 

[drusso]

Well. Seeing as how all our money had been saved during the marraige, a prenup really means zilch. Neither of us had any net worth at that point.

Regardless, its not that the wife and kids spend exorbitantly. Its that in order to retire early, you have to control expenses and save a ton. Its just much more difficult to do when you have 3 separate 529 plans, summer camps, sporting equipment, clothes, birthday gifts, cars, insurance, etc.

This FIRE stuff is not a new idea.

Plus, i cant imagine Drusso would actually retire early. Isnt is too late for that already? More of an ideal than an actual reality

It’s never too late to retire early.

 

[drusso]

Drusso works from 5:00 am to 9 pm. If he retired tomorrow he’d still functionally be retiring as a 79-year-old.

If you love your job, you never work a day in your life.

 

[drusso]

Agree. There is so much of life beyond work particularly when people who failed high school biology think they should be able to tell us how to practice medicine.

I’m definitely going to retire before age 60. Many other things I want to do.

At 100 years old, I'm the 'world's oldest practicing doctor'—5 things I never do to live a long, happy life

Dr. Howard Tucker has been practicing medicine and neurology for over 75 years. The 100-year-old doctor shares his best advice for staying happy, healthy and mentally sharp.

www.cnbc.com

 

[hyperalgesia]

I think many people don't fully appreciate, after all the headaches, that we actually get some fulfillment from providing medical care.

FIRE needs to be especially well planned for those of us who have integrated our self-worth in what we do at work.

 

[wendalltwolf]

 

[Ducttape]

Yahoo Finance: FIRE Movement Pioneer Returns to Work

"If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans..." https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fire-movement-pioneer-retired-early-130000448.html#

forums.studentdoctor.net

and it looks like the author of this article is still working, not doing FIRE...

at least, he apparently is taking new patients on as a plastic surgeon.

 

[psychemdoc]

FIRE doesnt work all that well with a wife and kids. My wife appears to single handedly be keeping amazon in business.

And all of us Amazon stock owners thank your wife for her contribution. Please pass along our gratitude to the misses.

 

[Ferrismonk]

I'd love to be financially independent, and I'll get there, but likely not in enough time to retire "early". I did the math and it's not currently possible unless I scale back my children's childhood to a level that is unacceptable to me.

If I was single, or my wife worked, or I had a smaller house, or we didn't have a pool, or I started medical school earlier, etc. etc. I made the choice and I'd rather provide a great childhood to my kids than skimp to be financially independent just when they leave the house.

 

[cowboydoc]

I'd love to be financially independent, and I'll get there, but likely not in enough time to retire "early". I did the math and it's not currently possible unless I scale back my children's childhood to a level that is unacceptable to me.

If I was single, or my wife worked, or I had a smaller house, or we didn't have a pool, or I started medical school earlier, etc. etc. I made the choice and I'd rather provide a great childhood to my kids than skimp to be financially independent just when they leave the house.

All true for me, too, except starting med school earlier. (The 5th year of undergrad was the best year of my life at the time.)

I'm not all that concerned with retiring "early," though I think I'm on pace to be set by 60-62. However, I'm really looking forward to being able to experience the lifestyle my wife and kids have become accustomed to.

 

[runfastnow]

I have many former classmates who want to do the FIRE physician thing. All are either unmarried or married without plans for kids. Almost all are generally disillusioned with medicine, hate their jobs/medicine, seemingly want to stay 28 forever, and are ok living a $50-60k lifestyle forever. Most have quit clinical medicine to do insurance work or purposely underemployed given level of subspecialty training for "easier" work.

I'm a millennial and my work/life balance goals may be different than other people/generations but I have no idea what I would do if I retired at 45 without kids or some meaningful thing beyond me - play mediocre pickleball and read the NYT?

Seems like quite a shallow life to me given all the opportunities that medicine and being a physician can provide in the right (or even average) circumstances.

 

[SSdoc33]

talked to my financial guy about this. he basically said that almost nobody just doesnt do ANY work if they retire early. really hard to go completely cold-turkey. i can see a scenario where i scale back 20% at age 50-55 then another 20% age 55-60.

i dont think i will struggle to find "meaning" in my life. ive helped plenty of people thru medicine already. its mostly a financial consideration for me

 

[Ducttape]

I have many former classmates who want to do the FIRE physician thing. All are either unmarried or married without plans for kids. Almost all are generally disillusioned with medicine, hate their jobs/medicine, seemingly want to stay 28 forever, and are ok living a $50-60k lifestyle forever. Most have quit clinical medicine to do insurance work or purposely underemployed given level of subspecialty training for "easier" work.

I'm a millennial and my work/life balance goals may be different than other people/generations but I have no idea what I would do if I retired at 45 without kids or some meaningful thing beyond me - play mediocre pickleball and read the NYT?

Seems like quite a shallow life to me given all the opportunities that medicine and being a physician can provide in the right (or even average) circumstances.

pick up golf.

 

[jsammi245]

talked to my financial guy about this. he basically said that almost nobody just doesnt do ANY work if they retire early. really hard to go completely cold-turkey. i can see a scenario where i scale back 20% at age 50-55 then another 20% age 55-60.

i dont think i will struggle to find "meaning" in my life. ive helped plenty of people thru medicine already. its mostly a financial consideration for me

Yeah striving for financial independence is probably the goal for me. I have so many loans and hope to achieve that someday. Just knowing that you have the finances to support you/your family regardless of how much or how little you work gives you peace of mind. Early retirement may be pretty difficult especially when you factor in health insurance, kids etc.

 

[runfastnow]

pick up golf.

Floating between 0-2 handicap since med school. Can't joint the senior tour until age 50 but I guess the five years of medicine free practice would get me close the reaching that skill level haha.

Can't wait until my kids are old enough though - hopefully one of them likes golf.

 

[hyperalgesia]

talked to my financial guy about this. he basically said that almost nobody just doesnt do ANY work if they retire early. really hard to go completely cold-turkey. i can see a scenario where i scale back 20% at age 50-55 then another 20% age 55-60.

i dont think i will struggle to find "meaning" in my life. ive helped plenty of people thru medicine already. its mostly a financial consideration for me

So, if you had enough money now to live comfortably and provide for your family and kids into adulthood, you would retire?

 

[pastafan]

No one has ever been reported to be on their deathbed stating “I wish that I had worked more”.

 

[Ducttape]

Floating between 0-2 handicap since med school. Can't joint the senior tour until age 50 but I guess the five years of medicine free practice would get me close the reaching that skill level haha.

Can't wait until my kids are old enough though - hopefully one of them likes golf.

if i were you, id take 2 years off to get that gam ready and then join the senior tour.

the closest im getting to the senior tour is when i buy a ticket.

 

[SSdoc33]

So, if you had enough money now to live comfortably and provide for your family and kids into adulthood, you would retire?

thats a good question. and to be honest, i am not sure about the answer.

ideally, id probably like to cut my time in half. maybe work 20 hours a week or so.

the issue is, i really dont know how much money i will need. nobody seems to have that answer. i dont trust the online calculators or the advisor recommendations. how do we know inflation would quadruple again? ill only feel really comfortable once my net worth is > $10M

 

[bedrock]

thats a good question. and to be honest, i am not sure about the answer.

ideally, id probably like to cut my time in half. maybe work 20 hours a week or so.

the issue is, i really dont know how much money i will need. nobody seems to have that answer. i dont trust the online calculators or the advisor recommendations. how do we know inflation would quadruple again? ill only feel really comfortable once my net worth is > $10M

You don’t think that 5M would be enough?

 

[SSdoc33]

You don’t think that 5M would be enough?

honestly, i dont know. probably not.

$5M in the bank outside of equity in the house and 401k? yes. but a LOT of the nest egg is in retirement funds which are subject to market volatility. plus, kids are expensive. we are looking at close to half a mil/kid for college -- assuming they get into and can actually get something out of an expensive school. i have nothing against a good state school, but if a kid gets into yale or williams i won't say no. after all, thats why i am doing all these shots.

then i have to worry about increasing property taxes, caring for aging parents, health and LTC insurance, etc.

does anybody else want give their magic number? assuming a family of 4 and you are currently in your mid to early 40s?

 

[lobelsteve]

honestly, i dont know. probably not.

$5M in the bank outside of equity in the house and 401k? yes. but a LOT of the nest egg is in retirement funds which are subject to market volatility. plus, kids are expensive. we are looking at close to half a mil/kid for college -- assuming they get into and can actually get something out of an expensive school. i have nothing against a good state school, but if a kid gets into yale or williams i won't say no. after all, thats why i am doing all these shots.

then i have to worry about increasing property taxes, caring for aging parents, health and LTC insurance, etc.

does anybody else want give their magic number? assuming a family of 4 and you are currently in your mid to early 40s?

$5m in investments plus a house and retirement accounts?
Net worth well over $10M at that point. That is less than 1% of this forum. And if you have $10M net worth, you are never hurting for paying for anything.

 

[SSdoc33]

$5m in investments plus a house and retirement accounts?
Net worth well over $10M at that point. That is less than 1% of this forum. And if you have $10M net worth, you are never hurting for paying for anything.

no. if you include everything -- investment accounts, retirements, accounts, and equity in the house -- if that is 5M, then how do you get to 10?

the more i think about it, if you have 2M in a post tax account, not including 401k and house equity (which is probably another "few"), then that probably should be enough.

 

[pastafan]

firecalc.com

 

[hyperalgesia]

no. if you include everything -- investment accounts, retirements, accounts, and equity in the house -- if that is 5M, then how do you get to 10?

the more i think about it, if you have 2M in a post tax account, not including 401k and house equity (which is probably another "few"), then that probably should be enough.

It totally depends on the person. Some people don't feel like themselves without the extra vacation homes and the ability to shop as a sport for both themselves and the spouse. How can they possibly be happy when the Joneses next door have a bigger house and new car every year?! It's just impossible for them... That might require 10+ million.

Other people are content to live in their old house in the countryside, with their old car, and their pets and happy family just being together.

I think you just have to know yourself/family and critically look at your budget and crunch the numbers.

Personally, I'm looking at around 2 mil. But I have no family to support and I've lived in the developing world for dirt cheap before. That kind of money is ludicrous for most of the world. It could change the lives of hundreds of people.

Life is very short and ours is coming to a conclusion very soon. Make it count!

 

[DOctorJay]

honestly, i dont know. probably not.

$5M in the bank outside of equity in the house and 401k? yes. but a LOT of the nest egg is in retirement funds which are subject to market volatility. plus, kids are expensive. we are looking at close to half a mil/kid for college -- assuming they get into and can actually get something out of an expensive school. i have nothing against a good state school, but if a kid gets into yale or williams i won't say no. after all, thats why i am doing all these shots.

then i have to worry about increasing property taxes, caring for aging parents, health and LTC insurance, etc.

does anybody else want give their magic number? assuming a family of 4 and you are currently in your mid to early 40s?

Trinity study gave us the "4% rule"

indexed to inflation you can take out 4% each year of retirement, want to be more conservative use 3% withdrawal rate

5M gives you 200k/year to spend

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Other people are content to live in their old house in the countryside, with their old car, and their pets and happy family just being together.

I can't imagine anyone who would be happy with this type of lifestyle

 

[SSdoc33]

I can't imagine anyone who would be happy with this type of lifestyle

who says they are happy?

but keeping up with the jones' is a real thing in the instagram age

 

[SSdoc33]

Trinity study gave us the "4% rule"

indexed to inflation you can take out 4% each year of retirement, want to be more conservative use 3% withdrawal rate

5M gives you 200k/year to spend

again, that is 5 million, liquid, in the bank earning interest. if that were the case, id cut down my work overnight.

im probably a bit on the conservative side in terms of how much money i need (i think i need more than i actually do)

 

[Pain Applicant1]

who says they are happy?

but keeping up with the jones' is a real thing in the instagram age

I was just kidding. That's how I prefer to live and I consider myself to be very

F the Jones', lol!

 

[Ferrismonk]

My number is 2mil, including 401K and any other investments, but house paid off and kids launched.

Of course, remember that the 4% rule is a savings number for stock/bond investments. If you have cash-flow investments, that changes the ballgame a lot.

The number one thing you have to think about when retiring is your expenses. Low expenses decreases the amount needed a ton. Ever read mrmoneymustache.com? I think he retired in his 30s with 600K saved up.

 

[lobelsteve]

I must be a total failure as I have nothing like what SSDOC thinks is the "right" number.

 

[Ducttape]

word of advice.

the closer you get to retirement, the more the number you posited as a youngling doesnt seem like enough....

 

[Dr. Ice]

Yahoo Finance: FIRE Movement Pioneer Returns to Work

"If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans..." https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fire-movement-pioneer-retired-early-130000448.html#

forums.studentdoctor.net

and it looks like the author of this article is still working, not doing FIRE...

at least, he apparently is taking new patients on as a plastic surgeon.

word of advice.

the closer you get to retirement, the more the number you posited as a youngling doesnt seem like enough....

Exactly that’s why this conversation doesn’t make sense. Too many variables.

 

[clubdeac]

thats a good question. and to be honest, i am not sure about the answer.

ideally, id probably like to cut my time in half. maybe work 20 hours a week or so.

the issue is, i really dont know how much money i will need. nobody seems to have that answer. i dont trust the online calculators or the advisor recommendations. how do we know inflation would quadruple again? ill only feel really comfortable once my net worth is > $10M

It likely will quadruple if you keep voting for bozos who love to blow out the country’s credit card limit 😂

 

[DOctorJay]

again, that is 5 million, liquid, in the bank earning interest. if that were the case, id cut down my work overnight.

im probably a bit on the conservative side in terms of how much money i need (i think i need more than i actually do)

it's more of a guideline so you can figure out your number and work backwards from.

take your current annual spend, multiply it by 25. that's your FI number to work towards.

 

[SSdoc33]

it's more of a guideline so you can figure out your number and work backwards from.

take your current annual spend, multiply it by 25. that's your FI number to work towards.

maybe i am bad at budgeting, but it really isnt that easy to figure out the annually spending number. its hard to account for the large expeditures that you cant anticipate. like a basement flooding or buying a new car.

but i dont want to poo poo the suggestion. ill take a deep dive into the numbers

 

[DrMDAware]

It likely will quadruple if you keep voting for bozos who love to blow out the country’s credit card limit 😂

My friend - do not fear.

Do you know how much the government is saving because they’re not covering SIJ RFAs now?

The debt crisis is over.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

FWIW, if anyone cares, I've had to deal with many flooding issues on properties and dwelling damages in general. It tends to be very profitable in the end. If anyone has any interest, I'm happy to detail the hows and whys. There's a very good chance that at least several people in here will have to eventually use their homeowner's hazard insurance.

 

[pastafan]

FWIW, if anyone cares, I've had to deal with many flooding issues on properties and dwelling damages in general. It tends to be very profitable in the end. If anyone has any interest, I'm happy to detail the hows and whys. There's a very good chance that at least several people in here will have to eventually use their homeowner's hazard insurance.

Pray tell....

 

[SSdoc33]

FWIW, if anyone cares, I've had to deal with many flooding issues on properties and dwelling damages in general. It tends to be very profitable in the end. If anyone has any interest, I'm happy to detail the hows and whys. There's a very good chance that at least several people in here will have to eventually use their homeowner's hazard insurance.

you've peaked my interest. i was under the assumption that flood damage is not covered unless you are in a gvt-designated flood prone area. i thought you could not buy flood insurance otherwise -- the carriers dont offer it. is this not true?

 

[Pain Applicant1]

I think you might be mixing up a few things. Flooding from the outside is not covered by typical hazard insurance. Doesn't matter if it's a force majure or a broken pipe. You will have to get flood insurance to cover this which is a separate policy.

There are FEMA flood zones that you're referring to. If you're in a certain flood zone the lender offering you your note will require flood insurance as they need to protect themselves and the gov, I believe, will then offer you their insurance, nfip, if you want it. You can check out the FEMA flood maps if interested. You can petition to take your property out of the flood zone by ordering an elevation survey and seeing if you qualify. If so, you just reduced your overhead significantly by not having to buy flood insurance. I've been successful at doing this.

Anyway, flooding from the inside is typically covered. I've had to deal with this several times due to various plumbing issues. The laborers who mitigate the flood damage and then the contractors who come to repair afterward are notoriously expensive. These guys milk the insurance companies. The insurance companies are aware of this but they still base their payment to you on these prices regardless. The insurance company will cut a check to the contractors directly unless you tell them not to and to pay you directly. If they pay you, it's up to you what you decide to do with that money. Make sure they pay you directly.

Once the insurance adjuster makes the offer of what they're going to pay you go and hire yourself a public adjuster. They do everything the insurance adjuster does but they represent you and can get you much more money. On a $60,000 job, for instance, they can probably negotiate for you at least $10,000 more.

Once you receive the payment, you can then do the work yourself or just sub it out individually. From my experience, a $70,000 job will usually cost me about $20,000. That's how crazy the markup is. A few hundred dollar sheetrock repair will usually net you about $2000. Even if you sub it out, it should still save you significant amounts of money.

Floods are pretty easy to address now. It's mostly pumping the water out, running dehumidifiers and fans until it dries out, and keeping doors and windows open. Cut the sheetrock a couple of feet from the floor if it's ruined.

I'm now at the point where I love seeing major damage because it's so lucrative for me.