Words of hope from those seeking a residency.

[Sparda29]

So I was recently talking to someone who handles pharmacy residency applications. (A chief of medicine at one of the VA Hospitals.)

I was told that people of all GPAs are considered for residency and there are plenty of times that someone with a low GPA is selected over a person with a 4.0 GPA. The main thing that they are looking for are communication skills and recommendation letters. Often times, they get people with 4.0 GPAs who have no idea at all how to communicate their knowledge with others. GPA is pretty much an indicator of how much knowledge you managed to cram in the short period of time from when the information was presented to when you had to take the exam.

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[Its Z]

So I was recently talking to someone who handles pharmacy residency applications. (A chief of medicine at one of the VA Hospitals.)

I was told that people of all GPAs are considered for residency and there are plenty of times that someone with a low GPA is selected over a person with a 4.0 GPA. The main thing that they are looking for are communication skills and recommendation letters. Often times, they get people with 4.0 GPAs who have no idea at all how to communicate their knowledge with others. GPA is pretty much an indicator of how much knowledge you managed to cram in the short period of time from when the information was presented to when you had to take the exam.

Go figure..

I told you so

 

[fiorio]

So I was recently talking to someone who handles pharmacy residency applications. (A chief of medicine at one of the VA Hospitals.)

I was told that people of all GPAs are considered for residency and there are plenty of times that someone with a low GPA is selected over a person with a 4.0 GPA. The main thing that they are looking for are communication skills and recommendation letters. Often times, they get people with 4.0 GPAs who have no idea at all how to communicate their knowledge with others. GPA is pretty much an indicator of how much knowledge you managed to cram in the short period of time from when the information was presented to when you had to take the exam.

I totally agree that communication skill is very important. I encountered super booksmart kids who absolutely have no clue when they are given a real case.

but I also heard that for a program that receives almost 1000 applications each year, they will use GPA as a cut off hallmark when select applicants. they do not have enough time to read everybody's applications and recommendation letters.

 

[J ROD]

Well, there is some truth to that but I also know several of those folks not get residencies and then others with really high GPA and no communication skills get them.....so I say it depends on the program.

I would be the best on paper you can be....

 

[quartel]

Residency? Unless you are going for a hospital position I doubt it would be a problem getting in somewhere. I myself plan to go rural where there isn't any competition, my grades in school obviously won't matter.

 

[pharmwannebe2]

Residency? Unless you are going for a hospital position I doubt it would be a problem getting in somewhere. I myself plan to go rural where there isn't any competition, my grades in school obviously won't matter.

is there really a point to doing a residency in a rural...small town hospital?

I don't really get it. Cause I work in a smaller, hospital in the philadelphia area. It is affiliated with a really good hospital. They are still tiny and really aren't that clinical there. Anyways. They have been hiring a few clinical specialists. However, there are just so many people that have the residency background that are applying (according to the interviewer). So, they seem to be choosing pharmacists from the best residency programs: Like Hopkins, Hospital of Penn, etc.

maybe it is different if I move to another state. But I doubt it is. You will see congestion in wayyyy smaller hospitals soon with regards to hiring of specialists.

 

[Sparda29]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

 

[owlegrad]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/

 

[Praziquantel86]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

Low 2s? What's the minimum advancement GPA there?

 

[Its Z]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

And your employer will pay a heavy fine or a prison term when the IRS starts to snoop around which they are doing more and more.

 

[Sparda29]

http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/

ROFL. I always got As and Bs on my SOAP and FARM cases. If the exams were in SOAP/FARM case format and had like 4 cases instead of 50 multiple choice questions, I can guarantee that I would have close to a 4.0 GPA.

Low 2s? What's the minimum advancement GPA there?

Need to maintain a 2.0. If you fall below a 2.0 in a semester, you have to get above a 2.0 in the next semester. If you fail to do that, you have to repeat the year. (Happened to one student in our class.) If you get an F, you need to take remediation in the summer. If you do not get through remediation, then you have to repeat the year.

Only way that you get kicked out is by cheating, plagarism, or some other major offense.

I suppose the reasoning for the lower GPA requirement is because they take 3 years worth of material and push it all into 2 years.

And your employer will pay a heavy fine or a prison term when the IRS starts to snoop around which they are doing more and more.

Perhaps, but this is what I've been told to do by a lot of pharmacists when you first start off.

 

[njac]

I totally agree that communication skill is very important. I encountered super booksmart kids who absolutely have no clue when they are given a real case.

but I also heard that for a program that receives almost 1000 applications each year, they will use GPA as a cut off hallmark when select applicants. they do not have enough time to read everybody's applications and recommendation letters.

and what program reaches 1000 applications? I've heard of 200 but certainly not 1000!

 

[RX CARE]

I totally agree that communication skill is very important. I encountered super booksmart kids who absolutely have no clue when they are given a real case.

but I also heard that for a program that receives almost 1000 applications each year, they will use GPA as a cut off hallmark when select applicants. they do not have enough time to read everybody's applications and recommendation letters.

There is no such program that receives 1000 applications. That's ridiculous. That will mean approximately 60% of all residency applicants in a given year will apply to that one program. That's crazy. They may be hot stuff, but definitely not that hot!!

 

[Praziquantel86]

Need to maintain a 2.0. If you fall below a 2.0 in a semester, you have to get above a 2.0 in the next semester. If you fail to do that, you have to repeat the year. (Happened to one student in our class.) If you get an F, you need to take remediation in the summer. If you do not get through remediation, then you have to repeat the year.

Only way that you get kicked out is by cheating, plagarism, or some other major offense.

We don't have remediation at all...fail a class, take it over. Fail again, you're out. Two C's in a sequence, repeat the classes and get a B or better or you're out. Two semesters of <2.5, you're out.

 

[Sparda29]

We don't have remediation at all...fail a class, take it over. Fail again, you're out. Two C's in a sequence, repeat the classes and get a B or better or you're out. Two semesters of <2.5, you're out.

Wow, that's pretty tough.

 

[KARM12]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

Keep in mind as a resident you will be working weekends at the hospital. I hate to say it, but a GPA that low may have you over looked for residency.

 

[fiorio]

There is no such program that receives 1000 applications. That's ridiculous. That will mean approximately 60% of all residency applicants in a given year will apply to that one program. That's crazy. They may be hot stuff, but definitely not that hot!!

the medical center affiliated with my school.
I heard that from a friend, even I doubt the number. I thought a few hundreds was a lot but he insisted almost 1000.
anyway, the residency program at the hospital I work at doesn't even require applicants to submit transcript at all. they are looking for "personality".

 

[bacillus1]

the medical center affiliated with my school.
I heard that from a friend, even I doubt the number. I thought a few hundreds was a lot but he insisted almost 1000.
anyway, the residency program at the hospital I work at doesn't even require applicants to submit transcript at all. they are looking for "personality".

But if your grades are good, it shows that you're willing to work hard. Doesn't that matter at all? I think grades should matter somewhat. I guess they like lazy people that are good communicators.

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

But if your grades are good, it shows that you're willing to work hard. Doesn't that matter at all? I think grades should matter somewhat. I guess they like lazy people that are good communicators.

It's never on either extreme side of the spectrum as y'all try to make it. It's a balance...you've got to be the complete package.

It's all about knowing what to say, when to say it, and how to say it.

 

[Quiksilver]

I'm pretty much sure now that I'm gonna go for a PGY2 Infectious Diseases residency and moonlight on the weekends or something at an independent off the books. Although, I really wish that my rotations were graded on a letter grade basis instead of pass/fail. Looking at the evaluations I've gotten from all of my preceptors, I would have gotten all As, bringing up my GPA from the low 2.0s to the low 3.0s.

If you get a residency with a 2.0 I think the pharmacy education system is in rougher shape then it is. There has to be a minimum GPA that they need to consider. If it was me, I would want a personable resident but he has to have some competency. I wouldn't even look if you didn't have at least above a 3.0. A 3.0 in pharmacy school is not hard to do at all.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

If you get a residency with a 2.0 I think the pharmacy education system is in rougher shape then it is. There has to be a minimum GPA that they need to consider. If it was me, I would want a personable resident but he has to have some competency. I wouldn't even look if you didn't have at least above a 3.0. A 3.0 in pharmacy school is not hard to do at all.

I am not very "grade focused" but I tend to agree that a 3.0 is a reasonable cutoff line. Absent some sort of extreme personal crisis during school, I think most motivated students can maintain a B average. Pharmacy school grading definitely doesn't follow the bell curve, at least at both schools I've attended.

 

[Its Z]

But if your grades are good, it shows that you're willing to work hard. Doesn't that matter at all?

Not really. It just means one is good at taking tests and puts a lot of emphasis on grades.

I think grades should matter somewhat. I guess they like lazy people that are good communicators.

Ok..grades matter some. And no one likes lazy asses good communicator or good grades or not.

But all things being equal... and assuming residency applicants are high achievers, "communication skill" is what will set one apart from others.

 

[Its Z]

I am not very "grade focused" but I tend to agree that a 3.0 is a reasonable cutoff line. Absent some sort of extreme personal crisis during school, I think most motivated students can maintain a B average. Pharmacy school grading definitely doesn't follow the bell curve, at least at both schools I've attended.

I'm going to say 3.5 would be a good cut off because c'mon... 4th year really should be a 4.0 year.

 

[ucrx]

We don't have remediation at all...fail a class, take it over. Fail again, you're out. Two C's in a sequence, repeat the classes and get a B or better or you're out. Two semesters of <2.5, you're out.

At UConn, if you fail a class you fall back a year. Courses are only offered once and are usually a prereq for a course the next semester. This may have changed with the new curriculum, but I don't believe it did.

 

[Sparda29]

I'm going to say 3.5 would be a good cut off because c'mon... 4th year really should be a 4.0 year.

That's if rotations are graded. I have two years of pass/fail rotations that don't factor into the GPA. Any chance of me raising the GPA has come and gone, asides from 2-3 electives that I have to take.

 

[Its Z]

That's if rotations are graded. I have two years of pass/fail rotations that don't factor into the GPA. Any chance of me raising the GPA has come and gone, asides from 2-3 electives that I have to take.

That's what you get for going to a diploma mill.

 

[Argentium]

LOL @ Z.

 

[KARM12]

That's what you get for going to a diploma mill.

Agreed. Not going to convince us otherwise.

 

[cycloketocaine]

OU's rotations are pass/fail, so they are not factored into the GPA. That being said I think that a sub 2.5 GPA represents a lack of motivation. I mean, it's not that hard to get that in pharm school.

 

[njac]

I'm going to say 3.5 would be a good cut off because c'mon... 4th year really should be a 4.0 year.

disagree - and not only because I had 3 B's on 4th year rotations.

My drug info and clinical toxicology rotations both were graded on an objective rubric given to us at the beginning. The rotations both involved being on the phones (for the drug info or poison control centers, respectively) and 4 random calls per week were selected and graded, as well as 2 papers in each class. There were points for participation in discussions and whatnot, but the meat of the grades were from these activities. So a call that had a poor historian got picked - too bad. You had a fantastic call that went text book and wasn't picked - too bad.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

disagree - and not only because I had 3 B's on 4th year rotations.

My drug info and clinical toxicology rotations both were graded on an objective rubric given to us at the beginning. The rotations both involved being on the phones (for the drug info or poison control centers, respectively) and 4 random calls per week were selected and graded, as well as 2 papers in each class. There were points for participation in discussions and whatnot, but the meat of the grades were from these activities. So a call that had a poor historian got picked - too bad. You had a fantastic call that went text book and wasn't picked - too bad.

Sounds like a really good preparatory course for how the real world works.

 

[Its Z]

you should have gone to a diploma mill then.

disagree - and not only because I had 3 B's on 4th year rotations.

My drug info and clinical toxicology rotations both were graded on an objective rubric given to us at the beginning. The rotations both involved being on the phones (for the drug info or poison control centers, respectively) and 4 random calls per week were selected and graded, as well as 2 papers in each class. There were points for participation in discussions and whatnot, but the meat of the grades were from these activities. So a call that had a poor historian got picked - too bad. You had a fantastic call that went text book and wasn't picked - too bad.

 

[Sparda29]

That's what you get for going to a diploma mill.

Diploma mill because of 2 years of rotations or diploma mill because they are pass/fail?

 

[Sparda29]

OU's rotations are pass/fail, so they are not factored into the GPA. That being said I think that a sub 2.5 GPA represents a lack of motivation. I mean, it's not that hard to get that in pharm school.

I suck at multiple choice questions. Give me essay type or short answer type questions and I'll regularly get Bs and As.

 

[Its Z]

Diploma mill because of 2 years of rotations or diploma mill because they are pass/fail?

No.

Diploma mill because you go to Touro.

 

[diastole]

I suck at multiple choice questions. Give me essay type or short answer type questions and I'll regularly get Bs and As.

Really? I think it is the easiest testing format. The answer is staring you in the face. I don't think that is real learning. Sometimes when I'm feeling lazy, I'll learn the first few letters of a drug and figure that is enough to get a question correct. I just have to recognize it, not reproduce it like I would in an essay. I wish we had essay or short answer so I wouldn't be so tempted to take short cuts.

 

[sleazye]

Really? I think it is the easiest testing format. The answer is staring you in the face. I don't think that is real learning. Sometimes when I'm feeling lazy, I'll learn the first few letters of a drug and figure that is enough to get a question correct. I just have to recognize it, not reproduce it like I would in an essay. I wish we had essay or short answer so I wouldn't be so tempted to take short cuts.

Wow. Must be nice.

 

[KARM12]

Two yrs of rotations may not necessarily mean better clinical training. We've all had those rotations that are a waste of time. You can only do so much as a student.

 

[Sparda29]

Really? I think it is the easiest testing format. The answer is staring you in the face. I don't think that is real learning. Sometimes when I'm feeling lazy, I'll learn the first few letters of a drug and figure that is enough to get a question correct. I just have to recognize it, not reproduce it like I would in an essay. I wish we had essay or short answer so I wouldn't be so tempted to take short cuts.

Yes, but essays and other short answer questions allow for partial grading and subjective grading. For example on a medicinal chemistry exam, they put 4 structures on the page. Question is, which of the following are statins?

I
I + II
I + II + III
I + IV
All of the Above
None of the Above

If it was all of the above and you picked I + II, then you don't get any points.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Yes, but essays and other short answer questions allow for partial grading and subjective grading. For example on a medicinal chemistry exam, they put 4 structures on the page. Question is, which of the following are statins?

I
I + II
I + II + III
I + IV
All of the Above
None of the Above

If it was all of the above and you picked I + II, then you don't get any points.

So? You need to know exactly what you're talking about. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Having been on a selection committee in the past (and possibly again next year), I personally wouldn't look at anyone with under a 3.0. Probably not even <3.5. As evidenced by the number of applicants last year, there are too many good students, with great LORs, great CVs, great communication skills, etc. to choose someone with a low GPA. Grade inflation being what it is, there would have to be a really good reason to have that low of a GPA. Are there book-smart people who make terrible pharmacists in practice? Of course! But I think there are too many "total package" applicants I would consider over someone with a lower GPA.

 

[sleazye]

Having been on a selection committee in the past (and possibly again next year), I personally wouldn't look at anyone with under a 3.0. Probably not even <3.5. As evidenced by the number of applicants last year, there are too many good students, with great LORs, great CVs, great communication skills, etc. to choose someone with a low GPA. Grade inflation being what it is, there would have to be a really good reason to have that low of a GPA. Are there book-smart people who make terrible pharmacists in practice? Of course! But I think there are too many "total package" applicants I would consider over someone with a lower GPA.

Is being at a school that's anti-grade inflation a good enough reason? Nobody gets A's and very few get B's, so what are we supposed to do? Can you give me the name of your program so I don't waste my time applying there?

 

[spacecowgirl]

Is being at a school that's anti-grade inflation a good enough reason? Nobody gets A's and very few get B's, so what are we supposed to do? Can you give me the name of your program so I don't waste my time applying there?

Which school is that? I wonder if there's an average GPA by school comparison somewhere because I haven't heard about schools that are like that (I'm not doubting their existence, sleazye, I just don't know which schools are like that). I don't know what to tell you. I suppose being in a certain % of your class would help since that would be relative to everyone else, not just compared to a grading scale?

Different selection committees and members I'm sure have different biases. I guess mine is grades.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

No.

Diploma mill because you go to Touro.

Awwwwwwww snap!

 

[Farmtastic]

imo, A student in the top 50% of their class at a particular school might be in the top 10% of a less competitive school.

 

[spacecowgirl]

imo, A student in the top 50% of their class at a particular school might be in the top 10% of a less competitive school.

Right, but if you know someone goes to an uber-competitive school like sleazye mentioned and is in the top 10% that would mean more than at other schools. That's how I meant it. So if Rho Chi is the top 15? 10?% of your class, that should be indicative of the best students in that class relative to each other vs relative to other schools where "grade inflation" is an issue.


ETA: I wouldn't choose someone with a 4.0 over someone with a lower GPA based on grades alone. I'm saying all else being equal, why not choose the better GPA?

 

[Farmtastic]

Right, but if you know someone goes to an uber-competitive school like sleazye mentioned and is in the top 10% that would mean more than at other schools. That's how I meant it. So if Rho Chi is the top 15? 10?% of your class, that should be indicative of the best students in that class relative to each other vs relative to other schools where "grade inflation" is an issue.

I think we're agreeing & saying the same thing. Grades and percentiles help you judge within a particular class but don't provide strong external validity. It's hard to compare a 3.5 or even top 10% at a school known to be competitive vs. a 3.5 or top 10% at a less competitive school. We don't really have a pre-residency standardized test, similar to USMLE.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I think we're agreeing & saying the same thing.

I'm sure I'm tired, it's been a day.

If there were a standardized test, people would complain that some people don't test well. There's no perfect method for sure. Which is why LORs, ECs and grades are included. I also look for people with a wide variety of APPEs.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I'm sure I'm tired, it's been a day.

If there were a standardized test, people would complain that some people don't test well. There's no perfect method for sure. Which is why LORs, ECs and grades are included. I also look for people with a wide variety of APPEs.

That's the thing that has always bugged me about residency applications, because more than anything else, its out of the applicants hands (even once you look past the fact that all schools do not have equal rotation sites).

Sure, the student is able to enter preferences, but once the wheel starts spinning it all comes down to luck. A student who ranked all the right choices might still end up shafted and be stuck with 3 Rite-Aids, 2 Walgreens and a dispensing rotation at a 10-bed acute care place. Obviously this is an extreme example, but you get the point.

Everything else about this process is driven by the student - involvment, grades, intern experience, research, etc. There's not much that anyone can do about it, and the system is as "fair" as its ever going to be. I guess I'm just ranting now - I'll get back to me DI paper.

 

[KARM12]

I think we're agreeing & saying the same thing. Grades and percentiles help you judge within a particular class but don't provide strong external validity. It's hard to compare a 3.5 or even top 10% at a school known to be competitive vs. a 3.5 or top 10% at a less competitive school. We don't really have a pre-residency standardized test, similar to USMLE.

That is why you don't waste your time interviewing someone from a diploma mill.