You down with DCC?

[RDlv]

So, is this the fabled "watered down Step 3" DNP exam from a couple of years ago?

http://www.abcc.dnpcert.org/index.shtml

Came across the "DCC" designation (yay, more letters for my white coat, sweet!) while digging around the ACNE website.

There's a downloadable sample test, I might give it a spin (though as a lowly MSN student, I am VASTLY underprepared for this level of rigor). =]

Just curious, new one to me.

EDIT: Yes, it is. Site contains links to NBME practice materials and the test handbook. The practice questions are fun, too, but easier than those in Pre-Test Family Medicine and Case Files FM.

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[zenman]

So, is this the fabled "watered down Step 3" DNP exam from a couple of years ago?

http://www.abcc.dnpcert.org/index.shtml

Came across the "DCC" designation (yay, more letters for my white coat, sweet!) while digging around the ACNE website.

There's a downloadable sample test, I might give it a spin (though as a lowly MSN student, I am VASTLY underprepared for this level of rigor). =]

Just curious, new one to me.

EDIT: Yes, it is. Site contains links to NBME practice materials and the test handbook. The practice questions are fun, too, but easier than those in Pre-Test Family Medicine and Case Files FM.

Relying on standardized testing is an idea as great as Press-Ganey scores.

 

[deleted6669]

if you pass it are you a "comprehensivologist"?.....
hi, I'm dr. smith , one of the comprehensiveologists. I know everything. how may I help you today?

 

[RDlv]

if you pass it are you a "comprehensivologist"?.....
hi, I'm dr. smith , one of the comprehensiveologists. I know everything. how may I help you today?

Silly PA, it makes one a "Diplomate." A holistic, comprehensivist diplomate.

More like:

"I am Dr. Jones, your Diplomate of Holistic Comprehensiveness."

For a degree so devoted to proper usage of research (the DNPs angle over the PhD), the weird complete lack of content validity puzzles me. The DNP has never been promoted as talking a specialist NP (family, adult, psych, whatever) and making them into a generalist. If this was the case, the exam would make some sort of sense, a way to measure the acquisition of generalist knowledge base. As I understand it, most DNP programs let the student just continue to focus on their NP area of specialty. I have no problem with this basis for the DNP. E.g., you are a pediadric NP with a focus on DM, so you do a gigantic research project on best practices for DM care in XYZ population. Fine, you get your "clinical" doctorate, you can get the gig in State Health Dept of Hospital Admin or whatever, design protocols, work with the ADA...and let the Master's-level NPs be NPs without pushing the entry-to-practice nonsense. All of the people I personally know who are doing the DNP want just this, a new title, some better admin/policy opportunities, etc. They DON'T think it makes them better front-line clinicians
any more than I think my BSN makes me a better nurse than my ADN fellows.

I'm getting even more angry at my certifying/national orgs than I ever was as a staff nurse. No more shrugging this stuff off, its getting ridiculous.

 

[Apollyon]

Relying on standardized testing is an idea as great as Press-Ganey scores.

Yeah, the SAT, ACT, MCAT, DAT, LSAT, GRE, NCLEX, Iowa tests, board examinations and bar examinations - they're all garbage and should be thrown out part and parcel.

Anecdotes are plenty - but, as compared to the numbers taking the exams, inconsequential - and standardized tests do a pretty good job of stratifying. If you deny that, then your credibility is gone. You yourself have posted about relying on objective data - like dumping the urine on a stone and seeing the ants go for it. For you to state that standardized testing is not good flies in the face of just about everything else you've posted.

 

[zenman]

Yeah, the SAT, ACT, MCAT, DAT, LSAT, GRE, NCLEX, Iowa tests, board examinations and bar examinations - they're all garbage and should be thrown out part and parcel.

Anecdotes are plenty - but, as compared to the numbers taking the exams, inconsequential - and standardized tests do a pretty good job of stratifying. If you deny that, then your credibility is gone. You yourself have posted about relying on objective data - like dumping the urine on a stone and seeing the ants go for it. For you to state that standardized testing is not good flies in the face of just about everything else you've posted.

Want to talk to my teacher wife (40 years experience) about how kids are taught to take and pass tests and can barely function in society when they have to come up with anything creative on their own. Good luck with that. I barely passed GRE yet had 3.94 GPA. My wife can't take tests either and was granted permission to do oral exams for her graduate degree and beat everyone.

Pissing on a rock and checking for ants is creative, fellow. Something you might do when the electricity to your lab goes out.

 

[zenman]

Current high school student used to standardized tests:

Teacher: What is half of eight?
Student: Four

Creative student:

Teacher: What is half of eight?
Student: 4, 0, 3, 6, and 2

 

[Apollyon]

Want to talk to my teacher wife (40 years experience) about how kids are taught to take and pass tests and can barely function in society when they have to come up with anything creative on their own. Good luck with that. I barely passed GRE yet had 3.94 GPA. My wife can't take tests either and was granted permission to do oral exams for her graduate degree and beat everyone.

Pissing on a rock and checking for ants is creative, fellow. Something you might do when the electricity to your lab goes out.

Anecdotes are bolded. Your point about creativity, in this case, is irrelevant. Objectively, the ants go for the sugar. I don't know if you thought that up on your own, or someone told you, or you accidentally came upon the idea.

I don't know where you got your 3.94. A theory would be the same place that would accept you with a low GRE would have lower academic standards. Now, don't take that as a dare to present your academic credentials. It's just a theory. I got a 1420 on my SAT (before it was dumbed down), a full academic scholarship to college, and couldn't get into medical school for years. That's more anecdote. However, my SAT correlated with my maintaining my scholarship.

Arguments against your statement could be 1. your wife is a poor teacher 2. her student group have had poor instruction from youth 3. these people whom you claim can't think creatively actually do, because the kids of yesterday are the adults of today, and people live longer, and are more prosperous, so they're doing something right. (And please don't go off on a tangent about how great a teacher your wife is; by your own statement, the students aren't functioning well in society - your wife is either part of the problem, or part of the solution. I don't know the lady, and this is abstract/theoretical. No insults are intended.)

And, as an aside, please spell it out to me as to what the "creative" answer of "4, 0, 3, 6, and 2" means. I don't get it. Recall, also, that "creative" and "applicable" are often quite divergent.

 

[zenman]

Anecdotes are bolded. Your point about creativity, in this case, is irrelevant. Objectively, the ants go for the sugar. I don't know if you thought that up on your own, or someone told you, or you accidentally came upon the idea.

I don't know where you got your 3.94. A theory would be the same place that would accept you with a low GRE would have lower academic standards. Now, don't take that as a dare to present your academic credentials. It's just a theory. I got a 1420 on my SAT (before it was dumbed down), a full academic scholarship to college, and couldn't get into medical school for years. That's more anecdote. However, my SAT correlated with my maintaining my scholarship.

Arguments against your statement could be 1. your wife is a poor teacher 2. her student group have had poor instruction from youth 3. these people whom you claim can't think creatively actually do, because the kids of yesterday are the adults of today, and people live longer, and are more prosperous, so they're doing something right. (And please don't go off on a tangent about how great a teacher your wife is; by your own statement, the students aren't functioning well in society - your wife is either part of the problem, or part of the solution. I don't know the lady, and this is abstract/theoretical. No insults are intended.)

And, as an aside, please spell it out to me as to what the "creative" answer of "4, 0, 3, 6, and 2" means. I don't get it. Recall, also, that "creative" and "applicable" are often quite divergent.

Jesus, I hope this doesn't go on for long! Creative physicians, in the olden times, were the one who allegedly were creative enough to pour urine on a rock. I hope you're not fixated on that point.

I hope at some point you realize anecdotes are very important, especially when you consider most of the research is hardly worth the glossy journal it's published in.

I have graduate degrees from Northwestern State, Centenary College, and Rush University. You can look those up if you wish. I really don't care.

Wife is considered a master teacher and has taught internationally...still is...and the scoop from every international teacher I've talked to is that they can never teach in the states again. You can probably figure out why. It has to do with the dumbing down of students to become proficient at standardized tests.

In regards to the math answer you should ask a Korean. Oh, I'll tell you. Half of 8 is 4. Cut 8 in half vertically and you get a 3. Cut in half horizontally and you get 0. Cut VIII in half and you get 6 and 2. Bet you can't figure out how to drive a straw through a potato either. How many bricks does it take to finish a wall 12 ft long by 4 feet high?

 

[Apollyon]

Jesus, I hope this doesn't go on for long! Creative physicians, in the olden times, were the one who allegedly were creative enough to pour urine on a rock. I hope you're not fixated on that point.

I hope at some point you realize anecdotes are very important, especially when you consider most of the research is hardly worth the glossy journal it's published in.

I have graduate degrees from Northwestern State, Centenary College, and Rush University. You can look those up if you wish. I really don't care.

Wife is considered a master teacher and has taught internationally...still is...and the scoop from every international teacher I've talked to is that they can never teach in the states again. You can probably figure out why. It has to do with the dumbing down of students to become proficient at standardized tests.

In regards to the math answer you should ask a Korean. Oh, I'll tell you. Half of 8 is 4. Cut 8 in half vertically and you get a 3. Cut in half horizontally and you get 0. Cut VIII in half and you get 6 and 2. Bet you can't figure out how to drive a straw through a potato either. How many bricks does it take to finish a wall 12 ft long by 4 feet high?

You know what? You come off really pompous online. I don't give a dump about your academic credentials - which I told you. However, for some reason, you felt compelled to list them. And kudos to your wife - first, for being acclaimed as a "master teacher", but, also, for putting up with you. However, I can tell you - as my best friend is also a "master teacher", in conjunction with having a PhD in it (not because of that) - that there's a lot of bloviation in the reckoning of "masters".

And a 3rd grade math trick? The straw through a potato is another 3rd grade trick. As for the brick wall, who cares? I've never done it, so, if I did, my laying of the mortar would be uneven, and I don't think I could equally break bricks on the ends. As such, I would pay someone else (or have my brother in law do it), and that person would first be able to eyeball it, and then get what they needed. But that's another 3rd grade math question - you're thinking I would forget the mortar.

But you are still black letter wrong about standardized testing. And, do you have the guts to say it? US doctors - who are masters of standardized testing - suck. Can you say that? Will you? Without anecdote - as I can, likewise, give you anecdotes of sucky NPs, along with the good? For, it is only a logical extension of your point - yet, between the MCAT, USMLE I, II, and III, and board exams, the docs seem pretty good - there's a positive correlation between becoming board certified and knowing your job as a doc.

 

[zenman]

You know what? You come off really pompous online. I don't give a dump about your academic credentials - which I told you. However, for some reason, you felt compelled to list them. And kudos to your wife - first, for being acclaimed as a "master teacher", but, also, for putting up with you. However, I can tell you - as my best friend is also a "master teacher", in conjunction with having a PhD in it (not because of that) - that there's a lot of bloviation in the reckoning of "masters".

People who know me personally know that you are projecting big time. I didn't give you my credentials, only some of the schools I've attended.

And a 3rd grade math trick? The straw through a potato is another 3rd grade trick. As for the brick wall, who cares? I've never done it, so, if I did, my laying of the mortar would be uneven, and I don't think I could equally break bricks on the ends. As such, I would pay someone else (or have my brother in law do it), and that person would first be able to eyeball it, and then get what they needed. But that's another 3rd grade math question - you're thinking I would forget the mortar.

Please stop responding till you realize it only takes 1 (one) brick to finish any brick project.

But you are still black letter wrong about standardized testing. And, do you have the guts to say it?

While I have been an assistant professor, I'll defer to all my educator friends who disagree with you. There are some advantages to standardized tests, but mostly they are like rules and regulations, who are for those who have no creativity and imagination. Being around students for many years I can see the downward slide over the years.

US doctors - who are masters of standardized testing - suck. Can you say that? Will you? Without anecdote - as I can, likewise, give you anecdotes of sucky NPs, along with the good? For, it is only a logical extension of your point - yet, between the MCAT, USMLE I, II, and III, and board exams, the docs seem pretty good - there's a positive correlation between becoming board certified and knowing your job as a doc.

Many suck as well as our way of teaching.* Rote memorization, if you look it up, only lights up parts of the brain, while story telling lights up all the brain. So, instead of memorizing your material make up a story and you'll get smarter quicker. Other physicians are excellent. Same with PAs and NPs. Our entire healthcare (if you can call it that) system sucks. We are behind other countries in some measurements. My wife has had 2 surgeries in Bangkok. I'll get any elective surgery there also, not just because of certain physicians but because of the total package. But you take all the standardized tests you want. I'm sure you'll be better for it.

* My med director called in a private practice psychiatrist early this am to chew his ass out because he was mad that I discharged his patient who had overdosed a few days earlier. He went out with his tail between his legs. Suffice it to saw he didn't seem too bright! During my career I've worked with great docs and one even so bad I almost wrote to their med school and residency program to ask how in the hell they let that person out on the street.

Give me some more. I'm a student of human nature. Or should you be studying for some tests?

Advantages and Disadvantages of Various Assessment Methods
1. Standardized Exams (Commercial)
Advantages
• Convenient
• Can be adopted and implemented quickly
• Reduces or eliminates faculty time demands in instrument development and
grading.
• Are scored objectively.
• Provide for external validity.
• Provide reference group measures.
• Can make longitudinal comparisons.
• Can test large numbers of students.

Disadvantages
• Measures relatively superficial knowledge or learning.
• Unlikely to match the specific goals and objectives of a program/institution
• Norm-referenced data may be less useful than criterion-referenced.
• May be cost prohibitive to administer as a pre- and post-test.
• More summative than formative (may be difficult to isolate what changes
are needed).
• Norm data may be user norms rather than true national sample.
• May be difficult to receive results in a timely manner.

 

[Apollyon]

I'm projecting? OK. Whatever. Playing word games. Fine.

What you keep evidencing is the you just don't get it. You are now trying the appeal to authority. Oh, and you are quibbling - you didn't present your credentials, just places you've attended? Maybe you need to recapitulate the meaning of that word.

You know what? Insult me some more, if that makes you feel good. And, if you ask where is the insult, one is the brick thing. Next is the projecting. After that is the paternalistic "I'm sure you'll be better for it".

You can't help it, as you've seen the downward slide - and do you yet tell the damn kids to get off your lawn, 'cause you're going to call the cops? - but you can't let it go. You will get in the last word, because you can't stop yourself. You are compelled. But I'm done - every discussion on SDN with you is how whatever is the status quo - the US, doctors, psychiatrists - are out of touch, or suck, or are immoral, and that being a jungle medical provider is where it's at. Good luck with that. And I am completely sincere in saying that.

 

[ChillyRN]

When I am eligible I will sit for the DCC exam, just as a point of interest for myself.
No, I won't put the DCC letters on my lab coat, lol. First of all, no one wears a lab coat unless it is extremely cold in the office or they spill something on themselves at lunch, and I've never bothered to embroider mine anyway.
If the DCC issue a certificate of some kind, I will probably tack it onto my cork board along with my diploma, license, certification, DEA#, NPI#, a postcard a friend sent me from the City of Hope in Africa, a pennant from my school and the photo of a grey hound standing on his hind legs wearing scrubs and a nursing cap.

 

[zenman]

I'm projecting? OK. Whatever. Playing word games. Fine.

What you keep evidencing is the you just don't get it. You are now trying the appeal to authority. Oh, and you are quibbling - you didn't present your credentials, just places you've attended? Maybe you need to recapitulate the meaning of that word.

You know what? Insult me some more, if that makes you feel good. And, if you ask where is the insult, one is the brick thing. Next is the projecting. After that is the paternalistic "I'm sure you'll be better for it".

You can't help it, as you've seen the downward slide - and do you yet tell the damn kids to get off your lawn, 'cause you're going to call the cops? - but you can't let it go. You will get in the last word, because you can't stop yourself. You are compelled. But I'm done - every discussion on SDN with you is how whatever is the status quo - the US, doctors, psychiatrists - are out of touch, or suck, or are immoral, and that being a jungle medical provider is where it's at. Good luck with that. And I am completely sincere in saying that.

No, the brick thing is a creative answer, not an insult to anything except your creativity. I'm hoping you'll learn something. And just because I can hang with you and present my experiences means just that...that I can stand head to head with you and not back down. Please don't let yourself be mad about that. I'm not trying to have the last word. When you reply out of left field about one of my comments, you open up a reply to that comment. Going into the jungle and learning something new is where it's at...or going anywhere else outside one framework will give you multiple ways to view a patient. Now back to the original discussion.

 

[ghost dog]

So, is this the fabled "watered down Step 3" DNP exam from a couple of years ago?

http://www.abcc.dnpcert.org/index.shtml

Came across the "DCC" designation (yay, more letters for my white coat, sweet!) while digging around the ACNE website.

There's a downloadable sample test, I might give it a spin (though as a lowly MSN student, I am VASTLY underprepared for this level of rigor). =]

Just curious, new one to me.

EDIT: Yes, it is. Site contains links to NBME practice materials and the test handbook. The practice questions are fun, too, but easier than those in Pre-Test Family Medicine and Case Files FM.

I was under the impression that NPs had to undergo the above standardized test.

Which standardized test do NPs take to get their credential ?

Standardized tests serve as a quality control measure. I don't see as how anyone could argue against such testing, in conjunction with a lengthy period of observation in a clinical teaching environment.

 

[ChillyRN]

I was under the impression that NPs had to undergo the above standardized test.

Which standardized test do NPs take to get their credential ?

Standardized tests serve as a quality control measure. I don't see as how anyone could argue against such testing, in conjunction with a lengthy period of observation in a clinical teaching environment.

Most of us sit for a board exam in our specialty area administered by the AANP, ANCC or one of a few others. I think there are still some states that do not require certification for licensure, only graduation from an accredited program. I don't know what state(s) that may include and I don't care enough to look it up, lol.

The DCC exam is open only to DNP prepared applicants, and is optional.

 

[RDlv]

I was under the impression that NPs had to undergo the above standardized test.

Which standardized test do NPs take to get their credential ?

Standardized tests serve as a quality control measure. I don't see as how anyone could argue against such testing, in conjunction with a lengthy period of observation in a clinical teaching environment.

When I graduate as an FNP, I will have two choices of certification exams. That offered by the American Academy of Nurse Practitioners:

http://www.aanpcertification.org/ptistore/control/certs/index

If I pass, I can title myself NP-C (nurse practitioner - certified).

Or, I can go with the certification exam offered by the American Nurses Credentialing Center:

http://www.nursecredentialing.org/Certification/NurseSpecialties/FamilyNP.aspx

If I pass, I get to call myself NP-BC (nurse practitioner, board certified).

Which is better? I don't have a clue, because NONE OF MY FACULTY CAN GIVE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO TESTS. However, they are different, as evidenced by innumerable threads on allnurses.com debating the issues.

Some faculty at my school strongly suggest we go with the ANCC test. Can you guess why? It is because it is a "Board Certification," and hence carries more weight with physicians. LOL, I couldn't make this stuff up folks.

I have heard anecdotal statements that certain hospital systems insist on one or the other for FNPs. I haven't verified that for myself. I have also "heard" that the AANP has a much more clinical focus, and that the ANCC has a hefty amount of "holistic" NP stuff (not referring to health promotion, that will be on both). Again, I don't know. I use Family Medicine books for my own learning (Case Files, PreTest, etc), but I guess I'll have to pick up a FNP review book to be sure I can anticipate nursey stuff.

The DCC exam I referenced originally is a completely optional exam for DNPs ONLY (us MSN FNPs are not worthy), is the brainchild of Mundinger and the Columbia U bunch, and really hasn't caught on yet, as far as I can tell.

Although I was a bit mocking in my first post, I think it actually is pretty cool. I hope it catches on, and I hope to see the concept embraced by NP schools and faculty.

On the advice of a SDN poster (and awesome allnurses troll) I used Step I review materials for my pathophysiology class, and it worked great. When I heard that we would be facing Standardized Patients at the end of our penultimate semester, I looked at Step II CS materials, and lo and behold that is just like what i faced (lite version, of course). I think a Step 3-esque patient management exam is great for us, and should definitely be part of the MSN education/certification.

There is nothing about the DNP that is advanced patient management. Systems leadership, policy, research utilization, sure I grant all that. That is why I absolutely do NOT oppose the existence of the DNP as a terminal nonPhD nursing degree, for administrators or non-Phd faculty to bolster their CVs. I oppose it whole-heartedly for entry to NP practice.

...and all the above only applies to FNPs. Other NPs have their own certification exams I know nothing about.

 

[ghost dog]

Most of us sit for a board exam in our specialty area administered by the AANP, ANCC or one of a few others. I think there are still some states that do not require certification for licensure, only graduation from an accredited program. I don't know what state(s) that may include and I don't care enough to look it up, lol.

The DCC exam is open only to DNP prepared applicants, and is optional.

I hope this is not true.

How can we as doctors take you seriously when it is so obvious that you do not take yourselves seriously ?

I mean come on, no country wide standardized exit exam certifying this profession ?

How did this come to pass ?

No quality control = problems in your educational system. How could anyone possibly argue the contrary ?

 

[fab4fan]

I would really like a picture of that dog!

 

[deleted87716]

I would really like a picture of that dog!

Which dog? The ghost dog, or the blue dog? I'm kinda camera shy.

 

[zenman]

I hope this is not true.

How can we as doctors take you seriously when it is so obvious that you do not take yourselves seriously ?

I mean come on, no country wide standardized exit exam certifying this profession ?

How did this come to pass ?

No quality control = problems in your educational system. How could anyone possibly argue the contrary ?

The quality control is continuous from undergrad programs on up as are the exams.

 

[ghost dog]

The quality control is continuous from undergrad programs on up as are the exams.

Oh , I see.

The quality control is there coz you say it is?

Nope, this doesn't wash.

And what undergrad programs are you referring to?

 

[GimpGenius]

The quality control is continuous from undergrad programs on up as are the exams.

Couldn't you argue, though, that there should be a national NP certification exam? I'm not knocking on what NP's do by any means, but I do think consistency between the programs is lacking. I'm also not an expert on the subject, so maybe there is one and I just haven't come across it.

 

[zenman]

Oh , I see.

The quality control is there coz you say it is?

Nope, this doesn't wash.

And what undergrad programs are you referring to?

Grads of all programs take the same NCLEX exam. You can be sure percentages of all grads from each school are posted so all schools/grads are aware. Schools can also be put on probation or shut down if they don't behave.

 

[zenman]

Couldn't you argue, though, that there should be a national NP certification exam? I'm not knocking on what NP's do by any means, but I do think consistency between the programs is lacking. I'm also not an expert on the subject, so maybe there is one and I just haven't come across it.

We have two. I took the ANCC exam for certification. How much testing do we need? I see a lack of consistency between medical schools, hence people trying to get into "good" programs and avoiding the malignant ones.

 

[Apollyon]

I see a lack of consistency between medical schools, hence people trying to get into "good" programs and avoiding the malignant ones.

Are you talking about medical schools as "programs", in that that is what your post seems to say? And, again, statistics don't bear out your anecdote, if you are referring to "good" and "malignant" medical schools. If you are not, this is then not germane. However, just off the top of my head, SUNY-Brooklyn, UPenn, and Duke all are grinding med schools, yet all have greater than 15 to 1 applicants to admitted ratios. For med schools, at least, malignancy, if not actively sought out, is not avoided.

 

[zenman]

Are you talking about medical schools as "programs", in that that is what your post seems to say? And, again, statistics don't bear out your anecdote, if you are referring to "good" and "malignant" medical schools. If you are not, this is then not germane. However, just off the top of my head, SUNY-Brooklyn, UPenn, and Duke all are grinding med schools, yet all have greater than 15 to 1 applicants to admitted ratios. For med schools, at least, malignancy, if not actively sought out, is not avoided.

What I'm basically saying is that all nursing programs have many watchdogs. You can have all the "certifying" exams you want but that doesn't mean you won't have a wide variety of schools, either excellent or malignant or great grads vs those who can barely exist in society. How many or what kind of exam taking clones do you want to produce?

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

There exist many crap nursing programmes in spite of these numerous watchdogs.

 

[ghost dog]

Grads of all programs take the same NCLEX exam. You can be sure percentages of all grads from each school are posted so all schools/grads are aware. Schools can also be put on probation or shut down if they don't behave.

This poster is referring to the RN exit exam, and not a standardized NP exam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCLEX

Standardized / exit exams are meant to ensure a minimum of quality. After this has been done, then the cream of the crop / playas can strut their stuff in whatever field they choose.

However, this has yet to be done in the field of NPs ( as far as I can tell).

 

[GimpGenius]

We have two. I took the ANCC exam for certification. How much testing do we need? I see a lack of consistency between medical schools, hence people trying to get into "good" programs and avoiding the malignant ones.

Fair enough, although I'm curious on how (if at all) the certification exams differ between each other and the other "comparable" exams (PANCE/PANRE/COMLEX/USMLE).

As far as "malignant" medical schools go, I think it's more a function of "good" programs having more opportunities (research funding, "better" rotations, etc.) than having an obvious difference in the curriculum's rigor. There will obviously be differences in a typical student's strengths from school to school (better pathology in one program, better pharm in another, etc.). That's likely true of NP programs as well, but I think we can all agree that a DNP program isn't nearly as rigorous as an MD/DO program (or at least not rigorous in the same ways).

I'm interested to hear your side of the "academic rigor" side of things, and whether or not you see a strong argument for the "DNP's are just as capable as MD's/DO's."

 

[zenman]

Fair enough, although I'm curious on how (if at all) the certification exams differ between each other and the other "comparable" exams (PANCE/PANRE/COMLEX/USMLE).

As far as "malignant" medical schools go, I think it's more a function of "good" programs having more opportunities (research funding, "better" rotations, etc.) than having an obvious difference in the curriculum's rigor. There will obviously be differences in a typical student's strengths from school to school (better pathology in one program, better pharm in another, etc.). That's likely true of NP programs as well, but I think we can all agree that a DNP program isn't nearly as rigorous as an MD/DO program (or at least not rigorous in the same ways).

I'm interested to hear your side of the "academic rigor" side of things, and whether or not you see a strong argument for the "DNP's are just as capable as MD's/DO's."

I really don't know how the two exams differ from each other. A professor at my program, Rush University, told me that the school recommended ANCC exam, and apparently taught towards that end. Yep, some NP programs are strong, others weak. Rush for example required 2 psychopharm courses. Many NP schools require just one. Even the FNP students at Rush are required to take a trimester of psychpharm which is great in my opinion.

I don't care for the DNP. It's an MBA/MPH mixture which is great if you want to go out and set up clinics or learn more about business. I already have an MBA so forget it. I did take a business course in the DNP program as I needed an elective and it was very good as the instructor had started her own healthcare business. It was equal to one of my MBA finance courses. But nothing is as rigorous as the physician route although I read where one physician said her BS in physics was harder. I've also heard anthropology can be a pain...memorizing all those dinosaur bones!

The just as capable question is more challenging and depends on many variables. I can probably, for example, do a neuro exam with the best of you but may not be able to interpret what I find except, "something ain't right here."

 

[fab4fan]

When I am eligible I will sit for the DCC exam, just as a point of interest for myself.
No, I won't put the DCC letters on my lab coat, lol. First of all, no one wears a lab coat unless it is extremely cold in the office or they spill something on themselves at lunch, and I've never bothered to embroider mine anyway.
If the DCC issue a certificate of some kind, I will probably tack it onto my cork board along with my diploma, license, certification, DEA#, NPI#, a postcard a friend sent me from the City of Hope in Africa, a pennant from my school and the photo of a grey hound standing on his hind legs wearing scrubs and a nursing cap.

This dog.

 

[deleted87716]

This dog.

Ah. I'd like to see that photo, too. Greyhounds are my favorite breed.

 

[RDlv]

I really don't know how the two exams differ from each other. A professor at my program, Rush University, told me that the school recommended ANCC exam, and apparently taught towards that end. Yep, some NP programs are strong, others weak. Rush for example required 2 psychopharm courses. Many NP schools require just one. Even the FNP students at Rush are required to take a trimester of psychpharm which is great in my opinion.

I don't care for the DNP. It's an MBA/MPH mixture which is great if you want to go out and set up clinics or learn more about business. I already have an MBA so forget it. I did take a business course in the DNP program as I needed an elective and it was very good as the instructor had started her own healthcare business. It was equal to one of my MBA finance courses. But nothing is as rigorous as the physician route although I read where one physician said her BS in physics was harder. I've also heard anthropology can be a pain...memorizing all those dinosaur bones!

The just as capable question is more challenging and depends on many variables. I can probably, for example, do a neuro exam with the best of you but may not be able to interpret what I find except, "something ain't right here."

I've heard of that variability, such as on-line coursework with rigorously proctored exams, extra courses in pathology and pharmacology, and strictly monitored clinical requirements.. I would wish for more consistency amongst programs, and standardized exams as well.

My main beef is with the jingoism I'm supposed to parrot as a soon-to-be NP. Not with the people, or the profession. Rather, the academic structure and advocacy organizations that RNs are generally able to ignore (ask how many nurses are ANA members) but NPs are pretty much obliged to participate in.

I am planning on enjoying being an NP. I like the role, I like patient care, and I'm still at the stage where every new diagnosis and variation is cool and interesting to me. I'm a grown professional adult who has no problem acknowledging persons with an OBJECTIVELY measured more in-depth and detailed education and experience in diagnosing and treating illness, and being open in my desire to learn from them.

I look like I will start my post-graduate career with a group consisting of an internist, a FM doc, and a very experienced pediatrician. They are folks I worked with as a student, very willing to mentor me. I value this, and I will do my best to be an added-value to the practice. I'll make some decent $$ doing something I enjoy while I work on the next stage of my education. Why would I want "more" than this?

 

[zenman]

I've heard of that variability, such as on-line coursework with rigorously proctored exams, extra courses in pathology and pharmacology, and strictly monitored clinical requirements.. I would wish for more consistency amongst programs, and standardized exams as well.

My main beef is with the jingoism I'm supposed to parrot as a soon-to-be NP. Not with the people, or the profession. Rather, the academic structure and advocacy organizations that RNs are generally able to ignore (ask how many nurses are ANA members) but NPs are pretty much obliged to participate in.

I am planning on enjoying being an NP. I like the role, I like patient care, and I'm still at the stage where every new diagnosis and variation is cool and interesting to me. I'm a grown professional adult who has no problem acknowledging persons with an OBJECTIVELY measured more in-depth and detailed education and experience in diagnosing and treating illness, and being open in my desire to learn from them.

I look like I will start my post-graduate career with a group consisting of an internist, a FM doc, and a very experienced pediatrician. They are folks I worked with as a student, very willing to mentor me. I value this, and I will do my best to be an added-value to the practice. I'll make some decent $$ doing something I enjoy while I work on the next stage of my education. Why would I want "more" than this?

While in school I was bitching about having to do course homework to my physician preceptor and he reminded me of Mark Twain's statement, "Don't let education get in the way of your learning." It all boils down to having fun.