Your opinion please..

[WaltzingMatilda]

From jweezy

WaltzingMatilda - WOW you are AWESOME....does this complicate your life? What'll you do? An enviable problem, but I guess a problem nonetheless...still WAY TO GO!!!

I didn't want to hijack the Acceptance thread, so I will just answer jweezy, and actually ask a question here. OK, so I was all set to go to Cornell/Rockefeller/SK. I got into the MD/PhD program, my fiance got into the Biochemistry PhD program. I told them I would come. I sent in my deposit check. I was ready to move to NYC.

THEN I got an offer from Harvard MSTP. I honestly didn't plan for this, because I honestly didn't think it would ever happen. I still feel unreal as I type this. But what do I do now? My fiancee didn't even apply to Harvard for Grad school. He applied to MIT, but didn't get in.

I am not complaining at all. I know this is a good problem to have. I am thankful. But like jweezy said, it's still a problem, because I don't know what to do. I am torn. I really enjoyed my visit at Cornell, less so at Harvard. But you don't turn down Harvard right? People keep telling me that the name Harvard will follow me and open doors for me for the rest of my life, yah yah yah.

If you have any opinion, I would really appreciate it.

Oh, and Thanks a lot, Jweezy!

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[j-weezy]

I didn't want to hijack the Acceptance thread, so I will just answer jweezy, and actually ask a question here. OK, so I was all set to go to Cornell/Rockefeller/SK. I got into the MD/PhD program, my fiance got into the Biochemistry PhD program. I told them I would come. I sent in my deposit check. I was ready to move to NYC.

THEN I got an offer from Harvard MSTP. I honestly didn't plan for this, because I honestly didn't think it would ever happen. I still feel unreal as I type this. But what do I do now? My fiancee didn't even apply to Harvard for Grad school. He applied to MIT, but didn't get in.

When do you plan on getting married? Can you guys live apart for 5+ years? Everything is closer in the Northeast, but I'm not sure the distance between Boston and NYC. Would your fiancee be willing to work for a year and reapply to grad schools in the Boston area this next year?

I think you need to be brutally honest with yourself over the next coming weeks and ask yourself which is more important to you RIGHT NOW: your relationship or your training? Obviously you'll have amazing research opportunities at either place; clinically HMS is definitely stronger however.

Whatever decision you make will be the right decision for you even if other people think you're crazy. And remember, at the end of it all you'll still be an amazing MD/PhD...


best of luck with this decision (and congrats again on the HMS acceptance!!!)


-j


EDIT: it sounds like you already know what you need to do - don't feel bad, there's always residency

 

[Neuronix]

But you don't turn down Harvard right?

I know someone who did. What doors exactly is your Harvard MD/PhD going to open for you that your Cornell MD/PhD isn't? IMO, you shouldn't choose Harvard name over the love of your life. You even said yourself you enjoyed the visits more at Cornell than Harvard. This seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[solitude]

From jweezy


I didn't want to hijack the Acceptance thread, so I will just answer jweezy, and actually ask a question here. OK, so I was all set to go to Cornell/Rockefeller/SK. I got into the MD/PhD program, my fiance got into the Biochemistry PhD program. I told them I would come. I sent in my deposit check. I was ready to move to NYC.

THEN I got an offer from Harvard MSTP. I honestly didn't plan for this, because I honestly didn't think it would ever happen. I still feel unreal as I type this. But what do I do now? My fiancee didn't even apply to Harvard for Grad school. He applied to MIT, but didn't get in.

I am not complaining at all. I know this is a good problem to have. I am thankful. But like jweezy said, it's still a problem, because I don't know what to do. I am torn. I really enjoyed my visit at Cornell, less so at Harvard. But you don't turn down Harvard right? People keep telling me that the name Harvard will follow me and open doors for me for the rest of my life, yah yah yah.

If you have any opinion, I would really appreciate it.

Oh, and Thanks a lot, Jweezy!

First off, congratulations. It's really frickin sweet that you were accepted.

Secondly, I can sympathize with you not particularly enjoying your visit to Harvard. It was not one of my favorite interviews by any stretch of the imagination.

With that said, it is my personal opinion that HMS-MIT, in terms of clinical and research training, is the best MSTP. But Tri-I constitutes an amazing trio of institutions. What you have to decide is whether the marginal cost of attending Tri-I instead of Harvard can be atoned for by the marginal benefit of living in the same location as your fiance. If you are serious enough about the relationship to be engaged at this young age, it seems like an easy choice to me. It's not like you're turning down Harvard for Podunk U., or Harvard for an unfunded spot at a top school. You would be turning down one absolutely incredible opportunity for another absolutely incredible opportunity. Best of luck, and congrats again .

 

[solitude]

I know someone who did. What doors exactly is your Harvard MD/PhD going to open for you that your Cornell MD/PhD isn't? IMO, you shouldn't choose Harvard name over the love of your life. You even said yourself you enjoyed the visits more at Cornell than Harvard. This seems like a no brainer to me.

Yeah anecdotally I have seen this a few times, and not just for Neuronix's school. Personal factors should play a large role in this decision, if they're at play (i.e., serious long-term relationship)--if you're not happy outside of school, you're not going to be happy at school no matter how prestigious it may be.

 

[j-weezy]

and for the record I think Neuronix, solitude and myself should start a consulting firm - we give excellent advice


/end self-praise

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

SO I tried to make a list of Pros and Cons

Harvard:
Pros: Well, name. It's Harvard. Who turns them down? I have a choice of either New Pathway or HST, which I won't have elsewhere. HST is different than other curriculum. Harvard is huge, with 19 affliated hospitals, plus MIT. So I will have access to a lot of labs and things. I can even stay for residency. They have got some people whose research I would find interesting (pediatric oncology)
Cons: My fiancee would either have to be away in NYC (I don't know if we can do a long-distance marriage- what the heck is that even?), or get a job in Boston. He's willing to follow me, but I just feel like I shouldn't ask that of him. And what WOULD he do in Boston anyway?! We can't survive on my income alone. I have also heard that Harvard students spend longer to get both degrees than anywhere else (10 years?) and that they don't get much guidance, since teaching is not the focus. I have also heard the environment is very cut throat competitive, unfriendly blah blah (is this true?)

Cornell:
Pros: I really like the program when I visited. I am in cell and cancer biology, so Sloan-Kettering has some good research. As a city, I prefer NY to Boston. My family is in NY state. My fiancee is set to do a grad program there.
Cons: Well, it's not Harvard. The program is smaller, less competitive, etc. There are less labs and hospitals availalble. There are not as many people specifically in pediatric oncology, which I am interested in.

Ok, I think that's it. Can you guys help me please?

 

[EpiGirl]

If you're worried about your professional image (and let's be honest, we all do), look at it this way. What could be more gangsta than being able to say "yeah, I got into Harvard, but it wasn't good enough for me" ?

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Wow. Thanks for the reply! I was typing my pros and cons list while you guys responded.

Ok, yeah, I am serious about the relationship. We were planning on a wedding for winter 2009. We have been together more than 5 years.

I was really surprised because my visit at Harvard was less than ideal. That was my worst interview EVER. So I never thought they would take me.

As far as what doors it would open? I am not really sure. But so many people keep telling me this. LOL

 

[j-weezy]

SO I tried to make a list of Pros and Cons

Harvard:
Pros: Well, name. It's Harvard. Who turns them down? I have a choice of either New Pathway or HST, which I won't have elsewhere. HST is different than other curriculum. Harvard is huge, with 19 affliated hospitals, plus MIT. So I will have access to a lot of labs and things. I can even stay for residency. They have got some people whose research I would find interesting (pediatric oncology)
Cons: My fiancee would either have to be away in NYC (I don't know if we can do a long-distance marriage- what the heck is that even?), or get a job in Boston. He's willing to follow me, but I just feel like I shouldn't ask that of him. And what WOULD he do in Boston anyway?! We can't survive on my income alone. I have also heard that Harvard students spend longer to get both degrees than anywhere else (10 years?) and that they don't get much guidance, since teaching is not the focus. I have also heard the environment is very cut throat competitive, unfriendly blah blah (is this true?)

All pretty true, the stipend is also lower than just about anywhere else, Boston is NOT a cheap city, but the research is pretty fantastic - HST I'm not too enthused about but that's just me

Cornell:
Pros: I really like the program when I visited. I am in cell and cancer biology, so Sloan-Kettering has some good research. As a city, I prefer NY to Boston. My family is in NY state. My fiancee is set to do a grad program there.
Cons: Well, it's not Harvard. The program is smaller, less competitive, etc. There are less labs and hospitals availalble. There are not as many people specifically in pediatric oncology, which I am interested in.

Ok, I think that's it. Can you guys help me please?

Sloan-Kettering has some research? It has some amazing research! AAAANNNNDDDDD don't forget Rockefeller, I can give you the name of a fantastic mentor for you who you'd love and who's doing cancer research.



Don't worry too much about focusing on pediatric oncology yet...there's plenty of time to focus on that later - you want a supportive environment where you can learn to be a great scientist

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

If you're worried about your professional image (and let's be honest, we all do), look at it this way. What could be more gangsta than being able to say "yeah, I got into Harvard, but it wasn't good enough for me" ?

I thought about putting that on my resume LOL. Just kidding. I am not sure. Does the name really matter that much? And do they really have better training?

 

[j-weezy]

I thought about putting that on my resume LOL. Just kidding. I am not sure. Does the name really matter that much? And do they really have better training?

name can matter but I think it's a little different for MSTP - you won't be fighting all of the other MDs for a spot at a top residency, you'll be able to match well...I think what's most important is making sure you'll be happy. Eight years (9 or so at Harvard) is a long time to be miserable - so don't let people persuade you into going - do what's right for you.




The name does not make you a success. You'll be a success regardless.

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Thank you so much you guys. I really really appreciate the congrats and the advice. You are really helping me think about this.

So we are all unanimous that it's possible to turn down Harvard MSTP?

 

[j-weezy]

So we are all unanimous that it's possible to turn down Harvard MSTP?

Of course it's possible but you may want to think about it for a while - give it some time and some thought...

for now though, relish in the thought that Harvard chose you and you are in the fortunate position of being able to decide whether or not to choose Harvard...

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Of course it's possible but you may want to think about it for a while - give it some time and some thought...

for now though, relish in the thought that Harvard chose you and you are in the fortunate position of being able to decide whether or not to choose Harvard...

Thank you, I will. Really, I appreciate all of you guys' advice.

If any of you think of anything else that I should think about, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me know. I promise I am reading and thinking about all of this very very seriously. And thanks again!

 

[Ziggy08]

First, congratulations! It's a win-win situation.

You might consider going to the Harvard revisit and speaking with the faculty there about your situation. Of course, they're going to be biased, but I'm sure that some of them had to struggle with personal decisions like this too.

Personally, I don't think the name difference is significant enough... Sure, the average person on the street knows the name Harvard better, but to the people who really matter for your career--residency directors, other academics--I'm not sure it makes too big of a difference.

 

[solumanculver]

Hi Matilda,
You know, I'm waiting for a decision from Harvard as well, and my wife also didn't apply and won't have a place there if I am accepted.

In my case, my wife and I decided that if I get into Harvard we will just go there and she'll get a job and apply next year to schools in Boston. Since MD/PhDs take longer than straight PhDs (especially at Harvard) it seems like a year of working in a lab before graduate school won't be too important in his career in the long run, just one more year of postdoc before you two go off to your residency. Likely next year he will be accepted to MIT as well...

But for me it wouldn't be a decision between Harvard and Cornell, it would be a decision between Harvard and Ohio State... And, to be honest, I'm not sure that I would be making the right choice even then. My wife and I are planning on starting a family this decade, and Boston/Harvard seems like the worst place to do it, whereas Columbus/OSU seems ideal. Is there that kind of dichotomy between Boston and NYC for you?

I kind of think that the difference in prestige between Cornell and Harvard is probably not enough to make up for the difference in domestic bliss, and it's even dubious that it would make a difference in your career at all. Are there statistics on differences in outcome between top-tier MSTPs? It seems like it's such a small population that there can't be too much of a difference after people from different programs are mixed up in residency, fellowship, postdoc...

Well, I guess I didn't give you any advice... I think that both ways could work, but Harvard will definitely be much more painful. I guess the worst case scenario would be that you end up going to Harvard, and everything is much more difficult for you and your fiance, and then it turns out that it didn't get you any further than going to Cornell would have. How likely do you think this would be?

 

[linuxizer]

So we are all unanimous that it's possible to turn down Harvard MSTP?

Of course. I know a few people who have done it, and it seems to be more common among MSTPers than straight-MDers. Besides, Cornell med may not be rumored to have quite the clinical range as Harvard, but it also has perhaps the best curriculum in the country and everyone is ridiculously happy there. Also, hard to beat subsidized housing on the Upper East.

Ari

 

[Picklesali]

I agree that it IS possible to turn down the big H. (I also met a person who did this along the way - who also does not go to Neuronix's school)

I think often we strive for the most competitive program or the best name, while putting happiness and quality of life in the backseat. Your acceptances have more than proven that you are a stellar candidate, and I have no doubt that you would succeed in both places.

I personally think that the seemingly unsupportive environment, the difference in location, and the problems that would arise for you and your fiance are enough 'cons' to outweigh the value of a name.

That being said, you should definitely revisit. Perhaps when you there in a less stressful situation you will feel differently.

You will get a great education at both places. They are both great schools with excellent reputations. Go where you will be most happy.

Good luck!

 

[Dr.Biassi]

I wouldn't choose confort and well taught class over name and fame. If you lay down well your education your success as MD/PhD will be stellar.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I wouldn't choose confort and well taught class over name and fame.

Somehow I think you're trying to say exactly the opposite.

 

[Ariodant]

People often mistake macroenvironment for microenvironment. Your personal experience will vary with, among other things, your MD class, your lab, your teams on the clinic, etc. The particular style and reputation of the school may point towards a statistically more likely experience, but you are not statistics (yet). And things can go right (or wrong) independent of the school. Gunners and mean residents lurk in every school/hospital, and research can be equally frustrating regardless of where you go (ask Neuronix).

People also tend to overestimate the extent to which they can possibly utilize the resources of a school. The first two years will be more or less the same for everyone in terms of work load, they only come in slightly different flavors. Then, despite the strength and breadth of research and numbers of labs that each school boasts about, you only need and can only be in one lab. Finally, the last two years of clinical education, about which I somewhat disagree with Solitude. Again, the difference between Cornell and Harvard has no impact on your medical education, not to mention careers down the path. Real clinical education begins in residency, and what's the difference between a caseload of 300 and 500? You will see and learn enough, and you can't see or learn them all.

As to whether names matter, I'll cite my own anecdote: during an interview, I told the professor that I thought the prestige of the school, the PI, and the journals I publish in as a PhD would only get me this far. Grant reviewers couldn't care less about anything other than what you did in the past two years. He laughed and said: "No, you are wrong！They only care about what I did this year!"

So, my take home message for our lucky lady will be: don't overthink about this, like a piece of gold, you will shine wherever you go.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Just as a general note, just because your fiance didn't apply to Harvard's graduate program doesn't mean your chance is completely lost. Academics is full of stories of couples getting recruited for positions as a couple. If I were you, I would have Blacklow contact the graduate director of whatever field your fiance was interested in to see if an exception for late application can be made, considering that you might be turning down Harvard's acceptance otherwise. If they want you for their program, then at least an attempt at accommodation will be made. It's a good bet that Tufts or BU might also be accommodating as well.

 

[marctam86]

all the advice on here has been very good.

As for Harvard opening doors, I'm not convinced. Or at least, I am not sure that the difference will be that great compared to Cornell, vis-à-vis door apertures. If you were bright enough to get into these two great programs, I'm very sure you'll open all the doors you need to when it comes time for residency. I would stay in NY. The upper east side is nice, you like the school, it's top notch, taking the 4-hour Fung wah bus to Boston sucks, and you're fortunate enough to have a fiancee who'd delay his own career plans for the sake of yours. I'd stick to NY, but I am hopelessly biased because I live here.

Good luck, and congrats again!

 

[jlamacc1]

From jweezy


I didn't want to hijack the Acceptance thread, so I will just answer jweezy, and actually ask a question here. OK, so I was all set to go to Cornell/Rockefeller/SK. I got into the MD/PhD program, my fiance got into the Biochemistry PhD program. I told them I would come. I sent in my deposit check. I was ready to move to NYC.

THEN I got an offer from Harvard MSTP. I honestly didn't plan for this, because I honestly didn't think it would ever happen. I still feel unreal as I type this. But what do I do now? My fiancee didn't even apply to Harvard for Grad school. He applied to MIT, but didn't get in.

I am not complaining at all. I know this is a good problem to have. I am thankful. But like jweezy said, it's still a problem, because I don't know what to do. I am torn. I really enjoyed my visit at Cornell, less so at Harvard. But you don't turn down Harvard right? People keep telling me that the name Harvard will follow me and open doors for me for the rest of my life, yah yah yah.

If you have any opinion, I would really appreciate it.

Oh, and Thanks a lot, Jweezy!

I vote Tri-I for several reasons: ability to live with fiancee, lower "A-hole factor" than Haaavaaaad (I don't think this is just a stereotype; it seemed that all the faculty with H. connections that I talked to mentioned this), larger stipend check (and unless you have outside help, I don't care what anyone says, $ is absolutely relevant, esp. in expensive cities), sweet subsidized housing on Roosevelt Island. Oh yeah, in the next few years, Yankees>>>>Red Sox.

 

[jlamacc1]

But seriously, I would second the post by marctam and also point out that an MSTP's alumni/match list can only be so good. Does Harvard's track record with MD/PhD graduates strongly suggest that you'd have more opportunity coming out of it's program than the Tri-I? Knowing what I know about other MSTPs (that graduates of MOST of these programs get into elite residencies and fellowships) and knowing that Tri-I, even relative to HST, is a fricking uber-elite MSTP, I'm skeptical that this is the case.

 

[Sinfekl]

From jweezy


I didn't want to hijack the Acceptance thread, so I will just answer jweezy, and actually ask a question here. OK, so I was all set to go to Cornell/Rockefeller/SK. I got into the MD/PhD program, my fiance got into the Biochemistry PhD program. I told them I would come. I sent in my deposit check. I was ready to move to NYC.

THEN I got an offer from Harvard MSTP. I honestly didn't plan for this, because I honestly didn't think it would ever happen. I still feel unreal as I type this. But what do I do now? My fiancee didn't even apply to Harvard for Grad school. He applied to MIT, but didn't get in.

I am not complaining at all. I know this is a good problem to have. I am thankful. But like jweezy said, it's still a problem, because I don't know what to do. I am torn. I really enjoyed my visit at Cornell, less so at Harvard. But you don't turn down Harvard right? People keep telling me that the name Harvard will follow me and open doors for me for the rest of my life, yah yah yah.

If you have any opinion, I would really appreciate it.

Oh, and Thanks a lot, Jweezy!

Well, normally the Harvard name would carry the day, but you are comparing it to the Tri-I, which is another fantastic program. At the end of the day, your advisor's name will follow you more than your institutions, IMHO, and working with Varmus ain't half bad.

Additionally, I have a close friend who studies at MIT and whose girlfriend is working in New York, and although they see each other every or every other weekend, it's still a strain on their relationship and not as convenient as you would hope it would be. But New York-Boston is only $15 on the chinatown bus (he prefers the Fun Wah), but they can be a little bit unreliable and take a few hours.

When your choice is between two such great schools, I would let personal factors override prestige factors. I have two friends who turned down Harvard for personal reasons without a second thought (one to live with her spouse, one because he wanted to be closer to his religious community) and both seem happy with their decision. I don't know if they'll wish they had a Harvard diploma when they apply for a professorship, but I think the Harvard/Cornell distinction is relatively insignificant for MSTP (and if you're into cancer or some types of immuno I would even think Tri-I is more prestigious). The only real clear advantage I can see for Harvard is that it would be easier to go to Brigham/MGH for residency.

 

[Kraazy]

First off, MAJOR congrats!

Secondly, I can't agree enough with what pretty much everyone else has been saying. It is perfectly possible, and reasonable, to turn down Harvard. The diff between Harvard and Tri-I in terms of prestige is so minimal, but the potential difference in how your relatsionship will carry out is huge. I have friends who do the NY-Boston thing, and it's not as easy as it seems esp if both you and your fiance are in highly demanding programs with at least 5-6 years commitment. I also would certainly not recommend a "long-distance marriage" in a relatively young relationship. And yeah, the Harvard name is nice, it's helpful (though unlikely to be significantly more so than a Tri-I MD/PhD), but really, you can't eat prestige, and it won't make you happy. Chocolate on the other hand...

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Hey guys. Sorry I disappeared after asking the question. Yesterday was actually my birthday. So I wasn't here in the evening, and then I was in class all day today. I just got out of class. I have read very carefully all of the advice that was given here. I really appreciate all of them.

You might consider going to the Harvard revisit and speaking with the faculty there about your situation.

I think I will do this.

I guess the worst case scenario would be that you end up going to Harvard, and everything is much more difficult for you and your fiance, and then it turns out that it didn't get you any further than going to Cornell would have.

You just spelled out my biggest fear LOL. Best of luck to you and your wife. The two-body problem has been, and is, very difficult, and I know that first hand. I truly hope that it will work out for both of you.

I wouldn't choose confort and well taught class over name and fame.

Did you mean it the other way around?

People also tend to overestimate the extent to which they can possibly utilize the resources of a school.

I did think about this. Theoretically, Harvard-MIT has 19 affliated hospitals, and many many more labs. But in practicality, I will only be doing my thesis work in one lab, and in my 2 years of clinical clerkship, it is extremely unlikely that I will be able to work in 19 hospitals. I would go crazy if I did.

If they want you for their program, then at least an attempt at accommodation will be made.

I thought about this. The problem is that this is not the only reason I am debating. Suppose they do go out of their way to get him into a program, and then I still decide on Tri-I, I am not sure that would go over too well.

As for Harvard opening doors, I'm not convinced.

That's what I have been asking myself all day. What kinds of doors are we talking about here? The connection and networking at Harvard? Friends in high places? What exactly does this mean? In practicality, how much benefit is this translating into? Is it worth sacrificing other things for? Does it really make a difference in my career? Get me a job? Add a digit to my salary LOL? Can someone translate this phrase I keep hearing?

"A-hole factor" than Haaavaaaad (I don't think this is just a stereotype

Cut-throat competitiveness scares me. Really. I am a perfectionist, I take great pride in my work, and I love what I do. But I have never ever been cut throat competitive. I would be more than thrilled for another person to also do well. I just think "more power to all of us!" I come from a university where it's very rare to see cut throat competitiveness. This is why I keep asking this question.

larger stipend check (and unless you have outside help, I don't care what anyone says, $ is absolutely relevant

I have absolutely ZERO outside help. We still have $40,000 worth of debt from our undergraduate degree that we are paying back. Harvard is a bit of a financial stretch, because we would need to maintain 2 living expenses, plus travel cost on the weekends. I think I would likely be broke.

normally the Harvard name would carry the day, but you are comparing it to the Tri-I

It's not that I want the name for myself. I do not feel that either name adds to my personal worth. I have no desire to throw around the name Harvard, just for fun. I am just wondering if the name makes any difference in my career (again, see question about "doors" above). Otherwise, the name is meaningless to me.

Chocolate on the other hand...

I need some at the moment!

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

I just want to add that I truly appreciate all of the congrats, good wishes, and advice. I hope whichever I choose, my MSTP class could be as supportive as you have all been. It really helps a lot.

 

[QofQuimica]

I know someone who did. What doors exactly is your Harvard MD/PhD going to open for you that your Cornell MD/PhD isn't? IMO, you shouldn't choose Harvard name over the love of your life. You even said yourself you enjoyed the visits more at Cornell than Harvard. This seems like a no brainer to me.

Completely agree with this.

OP, people can and do turn down Harvard on a regular basis--otherwise, they wouldn't need to have a waitlist, right? FWIW, I have to agree with the rest of the choir: go to the program that is the best fit for *you*, considering all of the other aspects of your life. I do agree with the people who told you to attend both second looks if you can, and bring your fiance. Then the two of you can sit down and make a list of pros and cons for each program, and figure out what you want to do. Either way, don't sweat it too badly. You really can't go wrong with either school. Best of to you with school and your upcoming wedding.

 

[Dodo23]

Whoa, whoa, whoa - wait a second. While I would still probably give the same advice to WaltzingMatilda - i.e., Tri-I, for the sake of her fiance - I think I need to step in to give a slightly different perspective on Harvard than others have been offering here. First of all, congrats on both acceptances - they're terrific programs and you're sure to do great at either institution. But if you choose Tri-I over Harvard, it shouldn't be because Harvard is an evil place (which it isn't) but because Tri-I is the better fit for your personal situation.

Let me add the disclaimer that I'm a Harvard undergrad in my senior year - and I absolutely LOVE it here. Sure, it hasn't been a bed of roses, but that was not what I signed up for four years ago, and I have no regrets about coming here. Are there mean, petty, cut-throat people here? Yes, just as there are anywhere else. And to echo Ariodant's point about microenvironments - if you happen to run across these kinds of people in the form of a PI, postdoc, resident or attending, then they can very well make your life miserable - IF you let them. But you can't let such people define your experience. And I do believe they're not necessarily representative of the general population here. For every 'bad' person I've met here, I've met dozens of good, hard-working, self-motivated (but not cut-throat) people at every level - senior and junior faculty, administrators, postdocs, grad students, fellow undergrads - who will go out of their way to help a lowly undergrad get forward in academics, career, life, etc. even if there is no immediate benefit to them personally. So the thing I love most about this place is the people, and everyone I know here agrees with me. If you're the kind of person who is proactive about getting what you want/need and knows when to seek help/advice, this is a marvelous place to be. Over the last 3.5+ years, this place has come to feel like home, more perhaps than any other (and I've been around the world a bit). Being here has opened doors for me - just take a look at my MDApps - and the support system I have been fortunate to have here will take me years to develop from scratch anywhere else.

That said, this is a decision that you and you alone can make. Congrats once again on having such a wonderful choice - in the end you will probably succeed wherever you go, so do what will keep you happiest on this long journey. I just wanted you to have a fuller picture before you make such a momentous decision. Best of luck.

Edited to add: And as far as friendliness goes, I can't speak that much for the situation across the river, but on this side of the Charles, we're not evil; we don't bite. Seriously, though, my best friends in the whole world are on this campus, and if the former undergrads I know from here who have been getting into the med school over the years are any indication, I can't see the student body over there as being unfriendly either.

 

[delirium81]

Hi Matilda,
First and foremost, congrats on your acceptances! What a fabulous (though frustrating) position to be in. I'm going to echo a lot of the other excellent advice that's already been posted, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents/support as well.

Yes, you can and should turn down any school that you don't feel is a good fit. If you enjoyed your experience more at Cornell, you should trust your instincts. Though it's definitely not a bad idea, as others suggested, to re-assess your initial impressions at second looks.

Both Harvard and Cornell will look great on a resume, but assuming you plan to focus on a career in research, the name of your PI and the quality of your thesis work is also very important. I'm sure there are plenty of great PIs at both institutes. So basically, don't over-estimate the importance of the name. Also, as a side note, Dodo mentioned that you have to be "pro-active" at Harvard, but really that's true of any PhD program. Getting a PhD is about learning how to think on your feet as a scientist. You don't do that by having someone hold your hand through the entire process.

So, I guess, ultimately try to pick a place where your happiness and productiveness are maximized. Sounds like that would be Cornell. Good luck and congrats again!

 

[greg12345]

Cornell, TOTAL no-brainer. Sure, mom and dad will be proud they can drop the big H name but the real people that count (i.e. residency program directors, fellowship program directors if you are fast tracking) could really care less about the "impact factor" of your medical school - they are looking at your pubs, your clinical grades, and your letters of rec. As someone who has gone through the process, a solid PhD is a solid PhD, PERIOD. It's not like Sloan-Kettering is exactly chopped liver when it comes to onc research anyways. I don't care if you are from Harvard, a weak PhD from there with less than stellar pubs is going to look infinitely worse than a solid PhD from ANY top 20 medical school in my opinion. Go where you will be more happy living for 8 years because for the most part it will be torture, so you might as well be tortured living near someone you love and in a city you like.

Also, let me let you in on a little secret - you can get good clinical training at almost ANY medical school as a 3rd year/4th year, it is more WHAT you individually put into it (reading about your patients, studying, etc.) that influences how well you are clinically trained as a med student. Now, where you train is slightly more important as a resident, but as a med student you are just trying to learn the basics - you can learn pneumonia, heart failure, STEMI, acute renal failure at pretty much any podunk hospital in the country. You don't need the world's leading basic scientist on myocardial remodeling as your attending to get good cardiology clinical training. Actually, he will probably be the worst attending to have b/c he prob only attends 2 weeks a year, and only b/c he is forced to and probably is counting down the days to when he can get back to his lab, grants, etc.

 

[linuxizer]

Being here has opened doors for me - just take a look at my MDApps - and the support system I have been fortunate to have here will take me years to develop from scratch anywhere else.

I hear this a lot from Harvard undergrads, but rarely with specifics to back it up that can't be found at any other elite school. Frankly, I suspect it results from a fundamental misunderstanding of what other similar caliber schools have to offer. Harvard is an amazing place. So are Yale, Penn, Princeton, etc.

That said, there's no denying the H-bomb effect. However, in the circles you're going to be competing in, people know what the good programs are, and your adviser matters a lot more than the school.

Good luck!
Ari

 

[Neuronix]

Also, let me let you in on a little secret - you can get good clinical training at almost ANY medical school as a 3rd year/4th year, it is more WHAT you individually put into it (reading about your patients, studying, etc.) that influences how well you are clinically trained as a med student. Now, where you train is slightly more important as a resident, but as a med student you are just trying to learn the basics - you can learn pneumonia, heart failure, STEMI, acute renal failure at pretty much any podunk hospital in the country. You don't need the world's leading basic scientist on myocardial remodeling as your attending to get good cardiology clinical training. Actually, he will probably be the worst attending to have b/c he prob only attends 2 weeks a year, and only b/c he is forced to and probably is counting down the days to when he can get back to his lab, grants, etc.

QFT. I would only say podunk or big name academic place. You will learn the basics no matter where you go.

 

[Maebea]

Cornell, hands down. For that matter, Columbia, NYU, Mt. Sinai, & Einstein, hands down. Do you have any idea how difficult it would be living away from your fiance/spouse for the 5 or 6 years it would take them to complete a PhD? We have had students in our program try to pull the two-city marriage off, and it the results have been either the relationship being terminated or the MD-PhD being terminated. You might end up being the exception, but it is more likely that in 3 or 4 years you will be giving up the PhD or the wedding band.

Even if there was not a relationship issue, I think that Cornell can hold its own against Harvard. Over the years, I've surveyed the publication records of graduating students of several MD-PhD programs, and Cornell students are equivalent to those from Harvard.

You'll have a chance to go to Harvard in 7 or 8 years. Call up Cornell this afternoon and ask for a copy of the residency match list, which will be released at noon. I can almost guarantee you that you will find a lot of their alumni ending up at a Harvard-affiliated institution.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I think that Cornell can hold its own against Cornell.

Agreed.

Call up Cornell this afternoon and ask for a copy of the residency match list, which will be released at noon. I can almost guarantee you that you will find a lot of their alumni ending up at a Harvard-affiliated institution.

Over the past 4 years (not including today), TriI has placed 4 graduates out at Harvard-affiliated institutions out of 37 matchers.

 

[Dodo23]

I hear this a lot from Harvard undergrads, but rarely with specifics to back it up that can't be found at any other elite school. Frankly, I suspect it results from a fundamental misunderstanding of what other similar caliber schools have to offer. Harvard is an amazing place. So are Yale, Penn, Princeton, etc.

That said, there's no denying the H-bomb effect. However, in the circles you're going to be competing in, people know what the good programs are, and your adviser matters a lot more than the school.

Good luck!
Ari

I'm not denying that other places may well have these advantages, too, but my earlier argument - that Harvard is NOT a place to be avoided because of a stereotype that people are cut-throat and unfriendly - still stands. Many of the people I've met here are among the nicest I've ever met anywhere. In fact, given the diversity of backgrounds, experiences and perspectives to be found here, it is, of all the communities I've lived or studied in here in the U.S. or elsewhere in the world, the most welcoming to outsiders. And that is no exaggeration on my part but absolutely true based on my personal experiences.

 

[linuxizer]

Harvard is NOT a place to be avoided because of a stereotype that people are cut-throat and unfriendly - still stands.

I agree. My time here has been amazing because there are amazing people, many of them amazingly nice. The system is seriously dysfunctional in many ways, though, in that it operates as a series of fiefdoms that gets old after awhile. And, again, there are other equally amazing places with amazing and amazingly nice people.

--Ari

 

[Dodo23]

I agree. My time here has been amazing because there are amazing people, many of them amazingly nice. The system is seriously dysfunctional in many ways, though, in that it operates as a series of fiefdoms that gets old after awhile. And, again, there are other equally amazing places with amazing and amazingly nice people.

--Ari

Agreed.

 

[chirpingmobiles]

Congrats on those acceptances! I agree with most of the advice given on this thread, but this is obviously a very personal decision that only you can make. While the name of your school surely matters (you really can't go wrong with either harvard or tri-i!), your success will depend on much much more, including your faculty adviser, classmates/colleagues, the learning environment, clinical training and, of course, your happiness. Hopefully, you can learn about some of these during revisits where you can meet the entering mdphd class, talk to particular faculty of interest, get a feel for departments, etc.

I would be careful making decisions based upon your initial interview experiences. Tri-I pours a lot more resources (fancy restaurants, jazz clubs, alcohol etc) into seducing applicants during the interview days, whereas harvard gives you tiny muffins for breakfast and a lot of free time to wait around. Personally, I had a FANTASTIC host at harvard; I met and talked with many current students, went out to dinner with some of them and watched election returns that night. While my sample size was very small, I found the people warm, friendly and intellectually engaging. While harvard undoubtedly attracts many competitive type-A people, the pass-fail grading system probably helps. Cornell, on the other hand, has honors-pass-fail, though the students there seemed extraordinarily happy with their program and not too stressed.

In terms of the 2 programs, I really don't think you can go wrong, particularly in your field. Nevertheless, there IS a lot at stake, as you will be devoting the next 7-9+ years to a particular place and also need to solve the 2 body problem (in some ways, a good problem to have!). I would definitely revisit both programs (I will), and hopefully by the time april 15/april 25 comes rolling along, you'll know which school will be the right choice for you.

 

[Ziggy08]

I would definitely revisit both programs (I will), and hopefully by the time april 15/april 25 comes rolling along, you'll know which school will be the right choice for you.

Does this mean you got into Harvard MSTP, chirpingmobiles? If so, congratulations!!!!!!!

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Thank you very much again for your opinion, everyone.

I think I am going to take your advice and attend the second visit. I have also had long discussions with my fiancee, my professors, my PI, my friends, my family, and even random classmates. Everybody on the planet is casting a vote LOL.

I cannot tell you enough how important your posts have been. I have read and thought carefully about each one. I will definitely keep you updated!

 

[chirpingmobiles]

Yes, I got the good news by phone on Tuesday (thanks ziggy!). I'm not making any decisions until after revisits, but it will be hard to turn them down. I don't have a 2 body problem, so I'll probably end up there. It is far far from home though...

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Congrats to you, chirping!

 

[WaltzingMatilda]

Thank you again for all of your advice. I have spent a lot of time this weekend pondering over the choices. I have had long talks with my fiancee, my family, friends, professors, PI, etc. I have decided that Cornell is a much better fit for me overall, and that my personal happiness is very important. The happier I am, the more productive I can be. And in the end, it's the quality of the science I do that will matter the most. I am confident that I will make the most out of whichever environment I am in, and I will open my own doors.

I appreciate the chance to visit Harvard, and I very much appreciate the Harvard offer. I also appreciate all of your advice on this thread. But I think I have made the right decision for myself. I have sent in my Withdrawal to Harvard today, so good luck to all of you on the waitlist!

 

[Kraazy]

Congrats on your decision!

 

[Neuronix]

The happier I am, the more productive I can be. And in the end, it's the quality of the science I do that will matter the most.

I think you're making the right decision. Congrats and good luck!

 

[OncDoc19]

Congrats on your decision! I think it take a lot of guts to turn down that offer and I'm sure you will be very happy at Cornell. No reason to be unhappy just because it's Harvard. Have fun in NYC!