What Can Current Hpsp Students Do??

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monkeybaronjr

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As a current 3rd year Army HPSP medical student, procrastinating on this board is not a very good morale-booster. A vast majority of these posts are dedicated to dissuading potential HPSP students from signing on the dotted line. However, we seemed to have left out another important population - the current HPSP students!! All I know is that I am much too ignorant to have a shred of understanding as to what military medicine is really like. All a person in my situation can do is read these posts day in and day out and wonder what things will be like come military match time, residency itself, then payback. Will things be better or worse? How can I possibly form an opinion for myself without seeing it first hand? I'm assuming it's not possible and my only solution is just close my eyes, and dive headfirst into the realm of military medicine hoping things will come out for the better (please, if there are any other suggestions, please let me know!). Ultimately - WHAT CAN A CURRENT HPSP STUDENT DO??? We've already signed. The military owns our lives. We can't take that back. What can we possibly do to make the best of it? I beg those with greater knowledge to share their insight! Please don't forget about those of us who have already signed!!
 
monkeybaronjr said:
As a current 3rd year Army HPSP medical student, . . . . WHAT CAN A CURRENT HPSP STUDENT DO???
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Be aware of the problems with the military medical system that those who have worked in that system have warned about here and do your best to protect your patients and yourself.

I don't think anyone could ask you to do more.
 
realize well before you're AD that it's the army and the BS level is very high. keep a good attitude and focus on the positives, even if they are few and far between.
 
GTFO....use your imagination as to what this acronym means and don't ever look back!!!
 
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
 
cyclegirl said:
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
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(Bolds mine)

You are a beginning medical student on an HPSP scholarship, are you not? As you have served not one single day as a military physician in any capacity anywhere, what weight would any critical reader give to your claims? It seems your assertions are based on no actual experience.

The physician posters here who have comments about military medicine you think are so negative have actually become physicians and actually have worked in that system as physicians. You have not.

I suggest that readers first consider the opinions of those who have actually been there.
 
monkeybaronjr,
your question has been asked and answered in the past. Search the forum and you will find your answer.

cyclegirl,
do you really expect physicians who are stuck, just like you, to provide anything other than ra ra comments. You make the best of a bad situation while you're in. Once you're out you can speak honestly about how much it sucked and why. You are not in the military. You are in medical school. Put the uniform on then come on here and enlighten everyone with how great the military is or is not.
 
monkeybaronjr said:
As a current 3rd year Army HPSP medical student, procrastinating on this board is not a very good morale-booster. A vast majority of these posts are dedicated to dissuading potential HPSP students from signing on the dotted line. However, we seemed to have left out another important population - the current HPSP students!! All I know is that I am much too ignorant to have a shred of understanding as to what military medicine is really like. All a person in my situation can do is read these posts day in and day out and wonder what things will be like come military match time, residency itself, then payback. Will things be better or worse? How can I possibly form an opinion for myself without seeing it first hand? I'm assuming it's not possible and my only solution is just close my eyes, and dive headfirst into the realm of military medicine hoping things will come out for the better (please, if there are any other suggestions, please let me know!). Ultimately - WHAT CAN A CURRENT HPSP STUDENT DO??? We've already signed. The military owns our lives. We can't take that back. What can we possibly do to make the best of it? I beg those with greater knowledge to share their insight! Please don't forget about those of us who have already signed!!
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First off, you have the advantage of knowing alot of stuff we shockingly found out about while trying to take care of patients. This should lite a fire under you to make sure you are doing your best to make yourself shine and hopefully get civilian trained. Once you are in, you will have to work with what you have. Learn the rules of documenting, and the will to speak up for what you see are clear injustices. If you only have 4 years of payback, you can do it no problem. Focusing on the positives is good advice, but never turn your back on what your profession is, and that is a DOCTOR first and foremost. Do not ever forget that, and you will muddle through with dignity, frustration, possibly punishment, but you will have your integrity intact. No one can take that from you.

Good luck
 
First of all I am not referring to the medicine, I admit that I know nothing about that because I did just start school. Second I do not in any way feel "stuck" if you other people on HPSP feel "stuck" then I feel sorry for you. You probably did not join for the right reasons. Third, I grew up around Navy medicine. I have a parent that is still active duty navy and I have spent a lot of time around it. I have completed 400+ hours of an undergraduate internship at various navy hospital clinics and wards. I have seen the day to day workings of Navy medicine and have talked to a lot of people about it. On a personal basis I know a lot of Navy physicians that when I have spoke to them outside of the hospital I can get the whole story. I have met only one physician that feels the same as you guys. I have also spent time with many nurses and corpsmen and I know that without a doubt that I have gathered over these years an adequate amount of information to state my opinions and people should not just discard them just because I have just started medical school . My military knowledge of multiple aspects of the military is extensive and I guess you guys are going just have to believe me.
 
In Galo's post sums up the problem for most physicians...(most meaning most- not just the disgruntled ones on this board) have with the military.

You want to be a doctor and do the right thing within the military. They want you to be an officer and do the right thing for the military. that is often not the right thing for the patient. Hence, the doctor problem with bad care to grease the military wheel.

Since I have been out... 3months... my feed back to david grant medical center has led to two active duty physicians coming to this board. They can't do this at work as the hospital filter keeps them off... so they feel it is important enough to do on their own time.

For those of you who want the feel good rant... here it goes......" the military isn't that bad... I few bad apples bitch... but it really is just like any other hospital except you wear a uniform... you see and do some great and unique things in the military. I think you are really going to enjoy it!"

Now be happy
 
get the full deferment, do your time, gtfo
 
cyclegirl said:
First of all I am not referring to the medicine, I admit that I know nothing about that because I did just start school. Second I do not in any way feel "stuck" if you other people on HPSP feel "stuck" then I feel sorry for you. You probably did not join for the right reasons. Third, I grew up around Navy medicine. I have a parent that is still active duty navy and I have spent a lot of time around it. I have completed 400+ hours of an undergraduate internship at various navy hospital clinics and wards. I have seen the day to day workings of Navy medicine and have talked to a lot of people about it. On a personal basis I know a lot of Navy physicians that when I have spoke to them outside of the hospital I can get the whole story. I have met only one physician that feels the same as you guys. I have also spent time with many nurses and corpsmen and I know that without a doubt that I have gathered over these years an adequate amount of information to state my opinions and people should not just discard them just because I have just started medical school . My military knowledge of multiple aspects of the military is extensive and I guess you guys are going just have to believe me.
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O.K., you have not been on active duty, but you say you did 400+ hours of an "internship" at various Naval hospitals and clinics. You were a volunteer?
Perhaps you got some sort of academic credit for your volunteering. And you met the staff where you worked. You did not have to, nor could you have worked in the system as a physician.

I think the astute reader will choose the opinions of the boarded physicians over all others when it comes to wanting to know how things look from the perspective of a physician. They would know.

Outside critics of those opinions are not experienced opinions, just cheerleading, yours included.
 
"What seems to have disappeared in just a generation or so is the willingness we used to have to defer judgment until we had enough experience and breadth of knowledge to make a judgment. The students, more socially ambitious than intellectually curious, feel put upon and won't abide what they believe to be the absurd and arbitrary demands of their instructors. The instructors have devised a way to pander to this classroom anarchy by incorporating it into their peculiar hermeneutic theories of literature -- or else they have abandoned faith in the very idea of objective worth. They don't have the nerve to stand there at the front of the classroom and announce what is painfully obvious: 'You're young, you're dumb, and you're wrong.'"

-- David R. Slavitt, University of Pennsylvania, "Circling the Squires", essay in "Dumbing Down: Essays on the Strip Mining of American Culture"
 
former military said:
You want to be a doctor and do the right thing within the military. They want you to be an officer and do the right thing for the military. that is often not the right thing for the patient. Hence, the doctor problem with bad care to grease the military wheel.
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Very interesting...Now I'm beginning to see the reason for the conflict between docs vs. the military. This makes more sense to me now and it is beginning to become appreciable as to how such a conflict could become frustrating beyond all belief.

With that said, are there any good docs that actually enjoy being in the military for the right reasons? I've heard stories upon stories of bad docs enjoying the military for the wrong reasons and good docs hating it and wanting to get out. I'm just wondering if there's a chance I can be a good doctor while enjoying what I'm doing.

roach (and others): I understand that it is very difficult to get a civilian deferrment and many threads have been on this topic alone, but more specifically, how common is it in the surgical fields (gen surg and/or ortho)? Is it one of the rare specialties that has a greater chance of getting deferred, or are there so many spots available that hardly anyone gets deferred?

Galo: Thanks for your continued help and advice. It is much appreciated

Thanks all...
 
cyclegirl said:
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
Click to expand...

Thank you for reiterating a point that few of us have made. I have met my own share of retired military docs who love mil med. I have even met one who could NOT practice mil med and was pretty peeved about it. They are out there, I and others have talked to them, and I think they painted a fairly realistic picture of what milmed is like. Our discussion wasn't all puppies and lollipops.

It's pretty ridiculous for anyone to think that civ med will be a utopia. Any large organization has its problems. I come from state government service and corporate America and experienced first-hand many of the same problems posted by the disgruntled ex-milmed people.

Everyone will have his own experiences; some won't like it, some will. However, the mil forum here is pretty much a waste of space for those of us already in the program. Thus, a few of us have been in talks with the admin of the site to allow a section specifically for those on the scholarship and in the service to discuss relevant issues regarding being in the service without the rampant negativity. Many of us are facing unknown territory and, perhaps surprisingly, want to be make the best of our service to the country regardless of what problems may exist. You can find some useful advice in here, but you have to wade through 200 threads of how much military medicine sucks to get there. It would be nice to just get some advice without a treatise regarding how broken the system is attached to it.

Our ship is already sailing. Our journey could be easier or more enjoyable with actual useful advice, not just, "it sucks get out ASAP". If you're interested, support what we're trying to do by sending an email or PM to the mods or admin.

So anyway, back to studying.
 
monkeybaronjr said:
Very interesting...Now I'm beginning to see the reason for the conflict between docs vs. the military. This makes more sense to me now and it is beginning to become appreciable as to how such a conflict could become frustrating beyond all belief.

With that said, are there any good docs that actually enjoy being in the military for the right reasons? I've heard stories upon stories of bad docs enjoying the military for the wrong reasons and good docs hating it and wanting to get out. I'm just wondering if there's a chance I can be a good doctor while enjoying what I'm doing.

roach (and others): I understand that it is very difficult to get a civilian deferrment and many threads have been on this topic alone, but more specifically, how common is it in the surgical fields (gen surg and/or ortho)? Is it one of the rare specialties that has a greater chance of getting deferred, or are there so many spots available that hardly anyone gets deferred?

Galo: Thanks for your continued help and advice. It is much appreciated

Thanks all...
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I'd like to think I qualify as one of the good docs who actually enjoys the military. I will admit to sharing some of the frustration that the negative posters discuss on this forum. I have had my share of disagreements with the powers that be. Fortunately when my bosses have not been clinicians, they defered to my judgement on medical matters. We had an agreement that I was responsible for patient care issues and they were responsible for keeping the lights on and the exam rooms stocked. These are truly rare birds, so I count myself extremely lucky. This does tend to taint my view of the military in a more positive light.

As for deferments, it changes year to year. Navy will almost always grant full deferments for Gen Surg, Ortho, ER and Anes. Others are hit and miss. Be a good student, do well on boards and you might have a shot. Suck and you won't. Its pretty much that simple.
 
cyclegirl said:
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
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Military hospitals cater to the brass...that's it.

Civilian hospitals cater to the MD's and their patients....that's it.

If you've signed, don't read here...just do your time honorably, and see for yourself....and maybe come back here to say what the rest of us are saying and help deep six military medicine....

or come back and lie about how great it was.
 
Thank you for reiterating a point that few of us have made. I have met my own share of retired military docs who love mil med. I have even met one who could NOT practice mil med and was pretty peeved about it. They are out there, I and others have talked to them, and I think they painted a fairly realistic picture of what milmed is like. Our discussion wasn't all puppies and lollipops.
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Times are different.



Thus, a few of us have been in talks with the admin of the site to allow a section specifically for those on the scholarship and in the service to discuss relevant issues regarding being in the service without the rampant negativity.
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What you ask is not possible. All the issues change. Deferrment...process and numbers change on a yearly basis. What is true this year is not true the next year. Detailing changes with the detailer....good one year, bad the next... Basically anything you want to discuss is moot...because it changes..

However, I can guarantee that the negativity will not change.


Many of us are facing unknown territory and, perhaps surprisingly, want to be make the best of our service to the country regardless of what problems may exist. You can find some useful advice in here, but you have to wade through 200 threads of how much military medicine sucks to get there. It would be nice to just get some advice without a treatise regarding how broken the system is attached to it.
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The useful advice is for those who have not signed to not sign...help deepsix this program.

Our ship is already sailing. Our journey could be easier or more enjoyable with actual useful advice, not just, "it sucks get out ASAP". If you're interested, support what we're trying to do by sending an email or PM to the mods or admin.
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You're right . Your ship has sailed.....it is over the horizon...it doesn't know where it is going and neither do the ships crew....and there is nothing that those of you on that ship can do the affect the next ship that sails.....

You're stuck...so ride it out....The next ship will sail...but hopefully with less people on board.
 
monkeybaronjr said:
How can I possibly form an opinion for myself without seeing it first hand?
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You can't - and to a lesser degree, neither can I (as a resident at a MTF who's s/p internship and a GMO tour). As an HPSP MS3 & MS4 you'll spend some time rotating at a MTF. Of course you'll be able to observe and compare some differences, but keep in mind that as students, interns, GMOs, residents, we are to some degree shielded from many of the day-to-day problems that the former military attendings here post about.

monkeybaronjr said:
Ultimately - WHAT CAN A CURRENT HPSP STUDENT DO???
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As mentioned previously, all you can do in your pre-attending days is be the best student or resident you can be, look out for your patients, and enjoy the best patient population in the world. Taking care of AD/retirees is a uniquely positive and rewarding aspect of being in the military, and there is always room for one doctor to make one patient's experience with military medicine a little better.

Don't ignore what the more negative people here say, but realize that there's a significant selection bias in who posts here.
 
cyclegirl said:
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
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I think its really inappropriate for a MS1 to even attempt to speculate on the sources/reasons for unhappiness that those currently serving are experiencing. I've never seen those that express disatisfaction assert that military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems. As far as their opinions being in the minority, I am currently rotating at a military and I can tell you that there are 3 military OB docs that are literally counting the days until they get out (one can even tell you the minutes). There are also two FP docs that recently got out and are now working here as civillian docs. During my 3rd year rotations at AF and Army institutions I can site the many unhappy doctors, esp GS. One of these docs definitively did not do HPSP for money, he is a die hard "I love my country and want to serve" type person and yet is intensely unhappy bc of the state of military medicine. I for one have been hardcore about serving my country, but after two years in the Army, experiences with AFHPSP and applying for GME, seeing first hand the deficiencies in the system as a 3rd and 4th year MS, my enthusiasm is waning to say the least. This board presents nothing as fact, just opinion. But don't read if you can handle people's POVs and automatically write it off as bitterness or a result of serving for the wrong reasons. (i.e. $) My suggestion is for you to reserve judgment until you are a little more entrenched in the system.
 
I am a 3rd year Army HPSP student. I remember feeling the same way not too long ago -- frustrated by the level of negativity on this board, scared that it might be true, terrified that I had already signed and had no way to get out. Despite the negativity here, I think it's been a positive experience to continue to come and read the posts of those who have been there and done that. I can't think of a better resource than many of those who post here, the positive and the negative.

I think it's been a good thing in preparing us who have already signed for what the future "may" hold. I'm doing an early 3rd year rotation at a MEDDAC right now, and all I can say is that just about everything I've read on this board is accurate. I can't say I've witnessed anything quite as bad as some of the stories I've read, but time and again I've seen something and been reminded of something I read here. These guys/gals are a valuable resource to us. I hope that with the second-hand experience I'm gaining here, I'll be a little more prepared to face the machine when I fully become a part of it, I'll know how to pick my battles, and if and when I have to go out there on a limb for good patient care, I'll be able to do so with the courage that many here had, even if they got burned.

That said, I'm actually glad that this information is becoming more and more available here. At least one person has stopped in to tell us that what they read here STOPPED them from taking HPSP. I think that's probably a good thing. I kind of wish I had been on this site earlier than I had (I think only mil-MD was around when I joined) and I had let more of this sink in before I signed.

However, I do think that for those of us who are already in, there could be some more helpful responses from those of you who have been there. Telling us to GTFO is not helpful. We already know that. I know I'm planning on it. That does absolutely nothing to help me get through residency and my commitment. To be honest with you, when I've had a really serious question about HPSP specific info, the Army, the AMEDD, etc, I've resorted to PM because I just don't want to hear about it from someone who has nothing better to say that GTFO or get ready to get bent over or something along those lines.

I'm glad people are free to post what they like, and I'm glad that prospective HPSP students are hearing about this earlier than some of us did, especially from all the new people who have joined. I just wish there was a little more of a helpful attitude toward those of us who are in the system already instead of "good luck--see you when you get out....sucker!!!!"
 
HooahDOc said:
Everyone will have his own experiences; some won't like it, some will. However, the mil forum here is pretty much a waste of space for those of us already in the program. ..
Our ship is already sailing. Our journey could be easier or more enjoyable with actual useful advice, not just, "it sucks get out ASAP". If you're interested, support what we're trying to do by sending an email or PM to the mods or admin.

QUOTE]
You are 100% correct, our ship has sailed. But I strongly disagree that there hasn't been useful advice here. I've struggled with issues of anger and frustration when I realized that becoming a GMO is a very likely reality for me. People on this site have helped me to understand that despite my frustrations that I have to keep the patient's well-being in the forefront of my mind. That, my friend, is something that is easy to lose sight of and in my opinion truly invaluable advice. I think the creation of a new forum is entirely unecessary. Many have a case of buyer's remorse and want their decisions to be validated. AD docs have posted their opinions, both good and bad, about milmed. Just because you dont like these opinions doesn't make them any less valid.
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MeganRose said:
People on this site have helped me to understand that despite my frustrations that I have to keep the patient's well-being in the forefront of my mind. That, my friend, is something that is easy to lose sight of and in my opinion truly invaluable advice.
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I totally agree - 👍
 
delicatefade said:
I just wish there was a little more of a helpful attitude toward those of us who are in the system already instead of "good luck--see you when you get out....sucker!!!!"
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GTFO is undoubtedly a puerile response but to the OP, I'd suggest using the search function. The responses by Galo and other AD/prior service docs might seem kind of silly and irrelevant but I think that's only bc they've offered more serious advice in previous posts. Also, if you have any questions about how HPSP works (ADTs, vouchers) and the residency application process (which I'm going through right now) please post here, or IM me, I'll answer any questions you have as best I can.
 
monkeybaronjr said:
As a current 3rd year Army HPSP medical student, procrastinating on this board is not a very good morale-booster... Ultimately - WHAT CAN A CURRENT HPSP STUDENT DO??? We've already signed. The military owns our lives. We can't take that back. What can we possibly do to make the best of it? I beg those with greater knowledge to share their insight! Please don't forget about those of us who have already signed!!
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Well, I'll try to be constructive.

First off, face it, you are stuck. (But you know that already)

Second, don't cower in some stateside clinic, counting the days, crying in your beer about how your career is ruined. You're in the military, yes in many ways a screwed up bureacracy, but also in many ways the best, coolest organization on the face of the earth at doing what it does best: Hauling large quantities of men and material from one corner of the earth to the other, and blowing s--t up when it gets there.

Get used to it, you WILL deploy. Make that work FOR you...get ahead of the curve and volunteer for some crazy off-the-wall job in some interesting foreign place, instead of waiting around on tenterhooks waiting for the detailer to hand you the dregs. Work the angles. (I was lucky to have one of the most experienced USMC experts in "scamology" in my old squadron. I learned many lessons, but that is another story) Make deals with the detailer i.e. "Sure I'll volunteer for this crappy assignment, but I want follow-on orders to xxxx." Most detailers worth their salt will do handsprings if they can fill a tough billet that way. The best, most interesting jobs in the military aren't always the the most coveted, career-enhancing ones. You're not going to hang around for a whole career anyway, right? So you might as well be the doc for some EOD outfit and learn how to blow crap up in a creative fashion. Most line units will take care of you and let you do cool stuff, IF you take care of them and don't act like some prima donna a-hole. So you have to put off that plum residency for a year or two, so what? Life goes on. What do you want to tell your grandkids, that you went straight from internship through residency, and spent your 20's working 80 hour weeks in some hospital 🙂yawn🙂); or that you spent a year or two serving your country as a battalion surgeon to a tank outfit, careening around the desert with a bunch of 22 year-old trained killers in the back of a Bradley?

I'm not trying to blow a bunch of "Oorah" smoke up your ass; much of your time in the military will be boring and suck. But, you might as well have some fun. It will make the time pass faster.

Also, believe me, once you get to my age, the crappy stuff will start to fade in your memory, but the really cool stuff you won't ever forget.

I am of the opinion that everything happens for a reason, so make the most of it.

Oh yeah, and take lots of pictures...

ExNavyRad
 
ExNavyRad said:
Oh yeah, and take lots of pictures...

ExNavyRad
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DITTO! This way when you're telling your own sea stories you have some proof of the craziness but also some of the cool sutff you might get to do. You might look like a freak having a camera at your side but believe me there will something to snap a picture of almost daily. :laugh:
 
ExNavyRad said:
Well, I'll try to be constructive.

First off, face it, you are stuck. (But you know that already)

Second, don't cower in some stateside clinic, counting the days, crying in your beer about how your career is ruined. You're in the military, yes in many ways a screwed up bureacracy, but also in many ways the best, coolest organization on the face of the earth at doing what it does best: Hauling large quantities of men and material from one corner of the earth to the other, and blowing s--t up when it gets there.

Get used to it, you WILL deploy. Make that work FOR you...get ahead of the curve and volunteer for some crazy off-the-wall job in some interesting foreign place, instead of waiting around on tenterhooks waiting for the detailer to hand you the dregs. Work the angles. (I was lucky to have one of the most experienced USMC experts in "scamology" in my old squadron. I learned many lessons, but that is another story) Make deals with the detailer i.e. "Sure I'll volunteer for this crappy assignment, but I want follow-on orders to xxxx." Most detailers worth their salt will do handsprings if they can fill a tough billet that way. The best, most interesting jobs in the military aren't always the the most coveted, career-enhancing ones. You're not going to hang around for a whole career anyway, right? So you might as well be the doc for some EOD outfit and learn how to blow crap up in a creative fashion. Most line units will take care of you and let you do cool stuff, IF you take care of them and don't act like some prima donna a-hole. So you have to put off that plum residency for a year or two, so what? Life goes on. What do you want to tell your grandkids, that you went straight from internship through residency, and spent your 20's working 80 hour weeks in some hospital 🙂yawn🙂); or that you spent a year or two serving your country as a battalion surgeon to a tank outfit, careening around the desert with a bunch of 22 year-old trained killers in the back of a Bradley?

I'm not trying to blow a bunch of "Oorah" smoke up your ass; much of your time in the military will be boring and suck. But, you might as well have some fun. It will make the time pass faster.

Also, believe me, once you get to my age, the crappy stuff will start to fade in your memory, but the really cool stuff you won't ever forget.

I am of the opinion that everything happens for a reason, so make the most of it.

Oh yeah, and take lots of pictures...

ExNavyRad
Click to expand...

Post of the year. Thanks for your comments!👍
 
I was in the same boat as an MSI when I realized what I'd done (right after I found this board, BTW.) Now, 7 years later, I'm a bit further along and I think can offer some useful advice. Here is what you can and should do:

1) Do your absolute best in medical school focusing your efforts on those things that pay off in the MILITARY match, rather than the regular one. Board scores are paramount. Research helps a lot. LORs are not as important. Grades are important etc. Learn the game of the military match and play it to the best of your ability.

2) Do your best to get the very best training you can. Depending on specialty, this may only be available as a deferred slot, but there are probably a few military programs in a few specialties that are either quite good or good enough. IMHO, this is the biggest problem with HPSP. Even if I have a cruddy job for 4 years and endure multiple deployments, at least I got great training that will serve me well for the rest of my career.

3) Do your ADTS in the appropriate specialty as early as possible and be an absolute all-star. Get to know the program directors at ALL the programs in your specialty in your service, since they are the match.

4) Expect the worst and I guarantee you will be pleasantly surprised multiple times.

5) Flexibility and a good attitude go a long way. Especially if you don't mind a GMO tour.
 
Desperado, Thank you very much for providing us with some useful information!!
 
roach said:
get the full deferment, do your time, gtfo
Click to expand...

I disagree about the full deferrment. It really depends on your specialy. In general, you're better off doing your training within in the military system. It pays off your IRR (no fear of getting called back in once you're out). And more importantly, it will get you some connections so that hopefully you won't get stuck in the worst assignment that the military has to offer.

Now don't me wrong, if the military residency programs in your specialty are weak, then definitely go for the full deferment. For example, while gen surg may be okay at bamc and wramc, there are some other military training programs that are completely subpar. So you have to take the specifics of your specialty and residency programs into account.
 
Mirror Form said:
I disagree about the full deferrment. It really depends on your specialy. In general, you're better off doing your training within in the military system. It pays off your IRR (no fear of getting called back in once you're out). And more importantly, it will get you some connections so that hopefully you won't get stuck in the worst assignment that the military has to offer.

Now don't me wrong, if the military residency programs in your specialty are weak, then definitely go for the full deferment. For example, while gen surg may be okay at bamc and wramc, there are some other military training programs that are completely subpar. So you have to take the specifics of your specialty and residency programs into account.
Click to expand...

you make some very good points, especially about taking your specialty and residency programs into consideration. my feeling is that most military programs (nowadays) are the equivalent of community programs. in my limited experience, didactics and caseloads did not compare to decent academic places. i also disliked the idea of pieceing my training together with rotations at different civilian hospitals to make up for inadequacies.
there are some exceptions to the military=community thing, with military ortho coming to mind.

in my situation, Pros for deferment: better training, uninterrupted training, easier time couples matching, less hassles training civvy (residency is tough enough- who needs another layer of bureaucracy?)

cons- less pay, not working on the IRR, not forming military connections
 
Mirror Form said:
So you have to take the specifics of your specialty and residency programs into account.
Click to expand...

I agree. For me, in AF Emergency Medicine, deferrment was the right choice for location, quality of training, and because I plan to spend most of my career outside the military. I passed up the better pay and connections and don't regret it. But I have met many military-trained doctors who felt their training was adequate.
 
cyclegirl said:
Those of you that are currently AD Dr's in some branch of the military could actually provide useful answers to the original post. All of you who think that the military hospitals are the only ones with BS and problems you are completely wrong. Just out of curiosity how many of you ex military docs had the scholarship money as your #1 or #2 reason for joining HPSP? If it was then that would help explain why you had such a bad experience. Military hospitals are not like civilian hospitals, it is a different way of life. All of your bitterness is not helping anyone and yes your opinions are a select few and not the majority of military docs. My suggestion to current HPSP students is to spend time with military docs on your breaks, it does not have to be official just shadow them and ask them lots of questions. Do not take everything on this board as fact learn first hand.
Click to expand...
To quote something my supervisor from the Air Force said about a fellow airman, "Just when I think you just said the dumbest thing ever, you keep right on talking...."

While you're busy toeing the party line, be sure not to scuff it. It has to remain in inspection order at all times. :laugh:
 
Croooz said:
DITTO! This way when you're telling your own sea stories you have some proof of the craziness but also some of the cool sutff you might get to do. You might look like a freak having a camera at your side but believe me there will something to snap a picture of almost daily. :laugh:
Click to expand...
Amen, I have a picture of the now infamous Doors poster above the ambulance entrance at MGMC ED. "Five to one, one in five, no one here gets out alive."
 
ExNavyRad said:
Well, I'll try to be constructive.

First off, face it, you are stuck. (But you know that already)

Second, don't cower in some stateside clinic, counting the days, crying in your beer about how your career is ruined. You're in the military, yes in many ways a screwed up bureacracy, but also in many ways the best, coolest organization on the face of the earth at doing what it does best: Hauling large quantities of men and material from one corner of the earth to the other, and blowing s--t up when it gets there.

Get used to it, you WILL deploy. Make that work FOR you...get ahead of the curve and volunteer for some crazy off-the-wall job in some interesting foreign place, instead of waiting around on tenterhooks waiting for the detailer to hand you the dregs. Work the angles. (I was lucky to have one of the most experienced USMC experts in "scamology" in my old squadron. I learned many lessons, but that is another story) Make deals with the detailer i.e. "Sure I'll volunteer for this crappy assignment, but I want follow-on orders to xxxx." Most detailers worth their salt will do handsprings if they can fill a tough billet that way. The best, most interesting jobs in the military aren't always the the most coveted, career-enhancing ones. You're not going to hang around for a whole career anyway, right? So you might as well be the doc for some EOD outfit and learn how to blow crap up in a creative fashion. Most line units will take care of you and let you do cool stuff, IF you take care of them and don't act like some prima donna a-hole. So you have to put off that plum residency for a year or two, so what? Life goes on. What do you want to tell your grandkids, that you went straight from internship through residency, and spent your 20's working 80 hour weeks in some hospital 🙂yawn🙂); or that you spent a year or two serving your country as a battalion surgeon to a tank outfit, careening around the desert with a bunch of 22 year-old trained killers in the back of a Bradley?

I'm not trying to blow a bunch of "Oorah" smoke up your ass; much of your time in the military will be boring and suck. But, you might as well have some fun. It will make the time pass faster.

Also, believe me, once you get to my age, the crappy stuff will start to fade in your memory, but the really cool stuff you won't ever forget.

I am of the opinion that everything happens for a reason, so make the most of it.

Oh yeah, and take lots of pictures...

ExNavyRad
Click to expand...


Stellar advice gentlemen.. I like most of the posts on this thread as they are giving insightful and exciting advice! Thanks😀
 
ExNavyRad said:
Well, I'll try to be constructive.

First off, face it, you are stuck. (But you know that already)

Second, don't cower in some stateside clinic, counting the days, crying in your beer about how your career is ruined. You're in the military, yes in many ways a screwed up bureacracy, but also in many ways the best, coolest organization on the face of the earth at doing what it does best: Hauling large quantities of men and material from one corner of the earth to the other, and blowing s--t up when it gets there.

Get used to it, you WILL deploy. Make that work FOR you...get ahead of the curve and volunteer for some crazy off-the-wall job in some interesting foreign place, instead of waiting around on tenterhooks waiting for the detailer to hand you the dregs. Work the angles. (I was lucky to have one of the most experienced USMC experts in "scamology" in my old squadron. I learned many lessons, but that is another story) Make deals with the detailer i.e. "Sure I'll volunteer for this crappy assignment, but I want follow-on orders to xxxx." Most detailers worth their salt will do handsprings if they can fill a tough billet that way. The best, most interesting jobs in the military aren't always the the most coveted, career-enhancing ones. You're not going to hang around for a whole career anyway, right? So you might as well be the doc for some EOD outfit and learn how to blow crap up in a creative fashion. Most line units will take care of you and let you do cool stuff, IF you take care of them and don't act like some prima donna a-hole. So you have to put off that plum residency for a year or two, so what? Life goes on. What do you want to tell your grandkids, that you went straight from internship through residency, and spent your 20's working 80 hour weeks in some hospital 🙂yawn🙂); or that you spent a year or two serving your country as a battalion surgeon to a tank outfit, careening around the desert with a bunch of 22 year-old trained killers in the back of a Bradley?

I'm not trying to blow a bunch of "Oorah" smoke up your ass; much of your time in the military will be boring and suck. But, you might as well have some fun. It will make the time pass faster.

Also, believe me, once you get to my age, the crappy stuff will start to fade in your memory, but the really cool stuff you won't ever forget.

I am of the opinion that everything happens for a reason, so make the most of it.

Oh yeah, and take lots of pictures...

ExNavyRad
Click to expand...

all reasonable advice, although some of it (the advice) depends on your circumstances (single, married, FP,surgeon etc).

one of the biggest decsions will be what you do when you witness the major deficiencies/problems/recklessness of military medicine. Do you look the other way, fight the good fight, how do you "deal" when admin blows you off, etc.

it will likely be "easiest" on you to limit your confrontations with the "establishment"....as many previous docs have fought the good fight to no avail. My opinion is that the true officer/physician will fight against the problems (in a tactful way) even if it endangers their career. At least when it is all done, you will not have any regrets about what you should have done/said...............and then it is all "on" the SG.
 
ExNavyRad said:
...Most line units will take care of you and let you do cool stuff, IF you take care of them and don't act like some prima donna a-hole. So you have to put off that plum residency for a year or two, so what? Life goes on. What do you want to tell your grandkids, that you went straight from internship through residency, and spent your 20's working 80 hour weeks in some hospital 🙂yawn🙂); or that you spent a year or two serving your country as a battalion surgeon to a tank outfit...
Click to expand...

Hey, I was both a USMC tanker and an Infantryman (I made a lateral move from tanks to the infantry for my second enlistment). We definitely took care of our corpsmen and the battalion surgeon. The medical staff went to the field on all of the big training exercises and the deployments and we always let them shoot the main gun and drive around (when I was a tanker) and fire the machine guns and other crew-served weapons (when I was a grunt).

I remember one navy doctor who was in extremely good physical shape, ran PT with the Headquarters and Service Platoon, and kept up on the humps. He wasn't sickeningly gung-ho but he was obviously enjoying his time with the Marines who are some of the best friggin' guys in the world. I suppose he was just out of medical school doing a GMO tour but back then I had no idea how doctors were trained and he didn't act disgruntled.

I agree wholeheartedly that doing something with a little danger and adventure in it when young is good thing and in no way will jeapordize your ability to be the chair of CT surgery at Johns Hopkins. The chief of surgery at my medical school was an infantryman during World War II if you can believe it.

And yes, I'd love to be a Navy Doctor working with the Marines but I am old, married, deep in debt, with four young children and five dogs. It just ain't practical, more's the pity.
 
For those of you already obligated under HPSP: Just become the best possible candidate for your specialty of choice, apply for training in the programs you desire, and hope and pray you get what you want. That's all you can do. But, realize that what you will actually do is mostly beyond your control. What actually becomes of you will be determined by the needs of the military above and beyond all else. The best you can do is work the system to your benefit-just like all the O-5+'s above you.

If all else fails, become a GMO/FS for four or ever how many years, then regain your freedom and resume your life.

Best of luck to you all, you're certainly going to need it.
 
USAFdoc said:
My opinion is that the true officer/physician will fight against the problems (in a tactful way) even if it endangers their career. At least when it is all done, you will not have any regrets about what you should have done/said...............and then it is all "on" the SG.
Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding all Brokeback...(sniff)

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com
 
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