AMCAS and dishonesty

burntcrispy · Feb 23, 2007

I was looking at the above thread and wanted to post this but it is locked.

DO NOT LIE on AMCAS accedemic work. I personally know of someone who did this and got kicked out of medschool in their 4th year!!!!!! This was a student who made excellent grades in medical school and scored 99th percentile on Step one of the boards (comparable to very high 30s/low 40s on MCAT). None of that mattered. That student was found to be dishonest and got kicked out. Now this student is stuck with tons of loans and no medical school in the country will take this student after being dishonest. After you are accepted to medical school your previous academic work will still be scrutinized. It is not worth it. AT ALL!!!!!!

Point: DO NOT LIE.

Creightonite · Feb 24, 2007

what did he/she lie about? Even if we wanted to lie about about classesgrades, AMCAS still checkes with the official transcripts and everything.

billydoc · Feb 24, 2007

Creightonite said:
what did he/she lie about? Even if we wanted to lie about about classesgrades, AMCAS still checkes with the official transcripts and everything.

Only if you send those transripts.

Unfortunately the other thread was locked, but how would AMCAS or AACOMAS find out about someCC college work? Suppouse you never took out any loans, and just paid out of pocket. And no degree was ever granted to you. Now, I'm not sugguesting to anyone to lie but rather playing a devil's advocate here.

spicedmanna · Feb 24, 2007

billydoc said:
Only if you send those transripts.

Unfortunately the other thread was locked, but how would AMCAS or AACOMAS find out about someCC college work? Suppouse you never took out any loans, and just paid out of pocket. And no degree was ever granted to you. Now, I'm not sugguesting to anyone to lie but rather playing a devil's advocate here.

I suspect this thread will be closed as well, for the same reasons listed in the first. Let's not entertain this subject any longer. It was more than adequately addressed in the first thread. However, FWIW:

?DreamsRMadeOf said:
There is a database that tracks EVERYTHING you do. The National Student Clearinghouse. The address is www.studentclearinghouse.org This is a National database that tracks EVERY school related thing you do. It appears to go back to a maximum of 10 years. My University gives all it's students free access to this database. It keeps track of all your student loans past and present, and your entire ENROLLMENT history. I found stuff in this database that I innocently forgot to mention on my college app! For instance, in 1997 I ENROLLED to take a 1 credit class on cake decorating at a community college, paid cash out of pocket, just one class in the evening. After attending the first class, I dropped it, well within the 100% refund period, no W's, no transcript. Well this database shows the date I enrolled and the date I withdrew !!!! Not only that, I wasn't even married yet, my maiden name is on that transcript. This database goes by soc # only, it doesn't care what state your in or how many names you have. This happened 10 years ago, I can't believe I forgot . I know that this will not affect my medical school app, but the thought that Adcoms can see every school that I enrolled in is just plain creepy! This could've easily been my med school app, and it would've looked like I was lying . I don't know whether Adcoms use this database, but I think it's safe to assume they do. My adviser said that they like to use it to look for financial aid fraud, like a student that would enroll at two or more schools at once and collect money from each school, it's sad.

ExtremeUnderdog · Feb 24, 2007

I will venture a guess that few people posting in these forums are as desperate as I am (first undergrad GPA 2.1 with 130+ credits, virtually useless grad GPA of 3.85, expired MCAT, stepping foot on the road to a second undergrad degree, preparing myself for the very real possibility of having to do an SMP after that (provided I can get into one), and not discounting the possibility that my first undergrad may keep me out of US schools despite all my efforts), so it is utterly surprising to me that so many people are willing to discuss ways in which the AMCAS rules can be circumvented and consequences if those circumventions are discovered. Have we been pounded down and reduced to this by the ruthless machine that is med school admissions?

Honestly, I ask myself: If I knew for a fact that AMCAS would never find out, would I not report my first undergrad degree?
Then I ask myself: When I do become a doctor, if I could be certain that I would not be found out, would I sell prescriptions for psychoactive drugs on the black market?
Then I must inevitably ask myself: If I knew for a fact that I would never be discovered, would I crack a bank database and route money to my off-shore account? (This would be far more elegant than walking in and trying to rob them.😎)

Why are we entertaining this line of reasoning? Where does it stop?

(OK, it's late, I'm here because I am procrastinating (bonus points for anyone who had figured out the "Pet Vacuumer" reference), and I might have stumbled onto a soap box... 😳 )

spicedmanna · Feb 24, 2007

ExtremeUnderdog said:
I will venture a guess that few people posting in these forums are as desperate as I am (first undergrad GPA 2.1 with 130+ credits, virtually useless grad GPA of 3.85, expired MCAT, stepping foot on the road to a second undergrad degree, preparing myself for the very real possibility of having to do an SMP after that (provided I can get into one), and not discounting the possibility that my first undergrad may keep me out of US schools despite all my efforts), so it is utterly surprising to me that so many people are willing to discuss ways in which the AMCAS rules can be circumvented and consequences if those circumventions are discovered. Have we been pounded down and reduced to this by the ruthless machine that is med school admissions?

Honestly, I ask myself: If I knew for a fact that AMCAS would never find out, would I not report my first undergrad degree?
Then I ask myself: When I do become a doctor, if I could be certain that I would not be found out, would I sell prescriptions for psychoactive drugs on the black market?
Then I must inevitably ask myself: If I knew for a fact that I would never be discovered, would I crack a bank database and route money to my off-shore account? (This would be far more elegant than walking in and trying to rob them.😎)

Why are we entertaining this line of reasoning? Where does it stop?

I like you. I find your posts most entertaining and poignant.

I tried to think of something clever to say, but alas, your eloquence is so striking that it creates the thought in me that nothing further needs to be added to perfection.

Nevertheless, I think the answer to your riddle is simple: it stops here, right now, with a conscious choice to be and live in integrity.

burntcrispy · Feb 24, 2007

Sorry for rehashing a subject that has been extensively discussed. I'm on call tonight and am bored to death so I was browsing SDN. I was a non trad like you guys so every now and then I'll look around and see what's going on in the non-trad world. Seems like a million years ago when I think back on the process but when I read some of these threads I still feel queasy about all of the stress that I had to deal with during the whole pre-med, MCAT, interview, etc. phase.

I just wanted to post this because I've seen what can happen first hand. The student I posted about was a great person, very well liked in the class and hard working. This student made a poor choice by lying in the app process and now is paying dearly. Basically this student has gone through most of medical school, taken over 100K in loans with nothing to show for it. Furthermore, this student will not be able to get into any medical school in the country.

Believe me, medical school is very tough, stressful and will just leave you feeling beaten up and emotionally drained. It isn't a process you would want to go through twice and it is definately not somthing you would want to go through to end up with nothing to show for it.

I was in a similiar situation that alot of you are in. I had to fight a major uphill battle of overcoming a low GPA. It can be done without any dishonesty. You just have to do the best you can in your classes, try to do the best you can on the MCAT and then apply broadly. Take it from someone who was once in your shoes, it can be done!!!

Good luck.

redsky · Feb 24, 2007

Hello,

I do not want to create more discussion on the subject, but I visited the site www.studentclearinghouse.org. While reading the FAQ it became **very** clear that what ?DreamsRMadeOf said about her experience with the site does not correspond to the truth. The site does not have information in every school, you have to pay a fee for each school you want to verify, and you need the student consent to make a specific search.

spicedmanna said:
I suspect this thread will be closed as well, for the same reasons listed in the first. Let's not entertain this subject any longer. It was more than adequately addressed in the first thread. However, FWIW:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ?DreamsRMadeOf
There is a database that tracks EVERYTHING you do. The National Student Clearinghouse. The address is www.studentclearinghouse.org This is a National database that tracks EVERY school related thing you do. It appears to go back to a maximum of 10 years. My University gives all it's students free access to this database. It keeps track of all your student loans past and present, and your entire ENROLLMENT history. I found stuff in this database that I innocently forgot to mention on my college app! For instance, in 1997 I ENROLLED to take a 1 credit class on cake decorating at a community college, paid cash out of pocket, just one class in the evening. After attending the first class, I dropped it, well within the 100% refund period, no W's, no transcript. Well this database shows the date I enrolled and the date I withdrew !!!! Not only that, I wasn't even married yet, my maiden name is on that transcript. This database goes by soc # only, it doesn't care what state your in or how many names you have. This happened 10 years ago, I can't believe I forgot . I know that this will not affect my medical school app, but the thought that Adcoms can see every school that I enrolled in is just plain creepy! This could've easily been my med school app, and it would've looked like I was lying . I don't know whether Adcoms use this database, but I think it's safe to assume they do. My adviser said that they like to use it to look for financial aid fraud, like a student that would enroll at two or more schools at once and collect money from each school, it's sad.

NewHope · Feb 24, 2007

What if someone went to a foreign medical school (Caribbean or European), didn't do that well. This person withdrew with some WPs and WFs on the transcipt but wants to get brand new start in life. The school was foreign but well-known in the States, cuz clinical rotations are in U.S. I'm not trolling, and only asking a hypothetical question. Should one still report it? My guess is Yes, Yes, and Yes. Will AMCAS or ACOMAS find out? May be, may be not. But the risk of not getting in because of this experience outweighs the risk of loosing it all in a split second, IMHO.
Any takers?

spicedmanna · Feb 24, 2007

I will not answer these types of questions any longer. I quote tkim, a moderator:

tkim said:
This thread has become really a probing of how far one can lie on the AMCAS application to increase the chances of admission and what, if any, verification processes exist and how to circumvent them.

Bottom line - you take your own chances by omitting attendance info and your medical degree can be revoked at any time if they find out you lied. Take your chances and accept the consequences whatever they may be.

MODS: Please close this thread.

oldpro · Feb 24, 2007

It pains me to see the younger and maybe some older people here that think it's ok to lie ..........ends justify the means.......................no it is never ok to lie I said it over and over in this thread

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=371052

One day or in some other way you will get caught then everything will be flushed down the toilet, your integrity, your self respect and respect of others as well as your practice or continuing on the path.

How many believe the former president did not inhale?
How many believe he did not cheat on his wife?

If the answer is yes then you are gullible

It is human nature and it is up to us to rise above that

Look at the Licensing laws in the states many say "Of good moral character"

How can you be that if you lie to get into school?

Good Luck to all and yes close this thread it disgusts me that there are still others who do not get it, maybe there should be sticky about Lying on the APP ? :luck:

NewHope · Feb 24, 2007

Yes! I agree. I hope nobody on this forum takes my post the wrong way. I never adviced anyone to lie. One guy I know was thinking about "just skipping" his foreign medical school adventure. He never graduated. In fact, never even took any finals to make it passed or failed course. He just quit the school. So, since there is no academic credit involved he is thinking "why bother?". It was a while ago, and far, far away :idea:

. He already paid for it in terms of loans, and wans to start from scratch. My take on it....................BAD IDEA>>>>>>>>>>PERIOD!!!!! But hey,that's me. I believe instructions on AMCAS are quite clear. Got turn it in good or bad. But the guy is scared of blowing his chance of getting in. My question to him was What about residency, if you make it that far. What about license application? I think somebody on these threads already said that a student made it to MSIV, and got screwed :scared:

with all this debt 😱 . Anyway buddy, if you reading it just take it for all its worth :idea:

Peace

oldpro · Feb 24, 2007

NewHope said:
Yes! I agree. I hope nobody on this forum takes my post the wrong way. I never adviced anyone to lie. One guy I know was thinking about "just skipping" his foreign medical school adventure. He never graduated. In fact, never even took any finals to make it passed or failed course. He just quit the school. So, since there is no academic credit involved he is thinking "why bother?". It was a while ago, and far, far away . He already paid for it in terms of loans, and wans to start from scratch. My take on it....................BAD IDEA>>>>>>>>>>PERIOD!!!!! But hey,that's me. I believe instructions on AMCAS are quite clear. Got turn it in good or bad. But the guy is scared of blowing his chance of getting in. My question to him was What about residency, if you make it that far. What about license application? I think somebody on these threads already said that a student made it to MSIV, and got screwed with all this debt 😱 . Anyway buddy, if you reading it just take it for all its worth

Peace

There are so many what if's, many doctors get sued, and sometimes the attorneys dig up all kind of info on you, what then when they find out you lied about your past? You see it on the new all the time that someone lied about grades and diplomas, I think this is so bad, I just can't begin to fathom.

tkim · Feb 24, 2007

Closing.

AMCAS and dishonesty

burntcrispy

Member

Creightonite

Senior Member

billydoc

Senior Member

spicedmanna

Full Member

ExtremeUnderdog

Megalomania Extirpator

spicedmanna

Full Member

burntcrispy

Member

redsky

at night

NewHope

Full Member

spicedmanna

Full Member

oldpro

MS IV

NewHope

Full Member

oldpro

MS IV

tkim

10 cc's cordrazine

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