HPSP drop. Can't afford recoupment.

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Harrythe5th

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Hi,

I guess I'll get right down to it and then ask if anyone has any advice to please help:

I was dropped from HPSP due to academics. I incurred a considerable amount of debt as a result of taking the scholarship that the military now wants to repay (I won't mention branch).

I tried for many, many months to go into active duty but the branch I was with would have none of it. They had me apply for a few things I wasn't qualified for, so I really stood no chance. Also, the HPSP person I dealt with on the phone told me they were looking, yet didn't start looking for nearly 6 months. Unfortunately I wasn't wise enough to send an email confirming what we had discussed on the phone, so I have no actual email proof. I know they weren't looking because 6 months after I informed them of my academic failure they sent me an email stating they were breifing the relevant person on my case to see if they could find an active duty spot. (So I have no proof they said they were actively looking during those 6 months between the drop and the email)

So fast forward to now. I've been paying over 50% of my net pay to them every month. It's a full time, public services job. I submitted a hardship package to get that down to 25% of my net pay, but even that is going to be difficult. I live in a high cost of living area after I relocated due to work, so it'd be impossible to live in anything if it weren't for my parents helping. I'm not even renting an apartment, just a room I found on Craigslist.

Before I got my current job I was paying over $1,000/month from my saving accounts and a retail job that was barely above minimum wage (and not enough to cover the recoupment!). Over $1,000/month on a 10 year repayment plan... yeah... when I received the first bill I almost threw up.

This is what prompted my post: http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml

Is it remotely possible to have HPSP converted into something like this or treated as such?

I feel like I'm out of options. If the hardship is approved I'm going to resubmit to have it lowered to 15 to 20% of my net pay. One other problem is the field of public service I am in is not the highest paying (law enforcement) and is subject to raises based on city council approval. So I will never be rolling in money or having the potential to earn a huge bonus at the end of the year or anything.

As for the conclusion of the sob story, I'm getting by, but barely and only with parents helping. I don't spend a ton of money, my biggest expense after rent/utilities is food and a car payment (car broke down, would cost thousands to fix, super old, so I got a used car). I mean, I just don't know what to do.

I have a lawyer who is fighting this, but it's been months and months and no waiver has been submitted yet. I'm half tempted to go to Fox News/Fox and Friends and just plead my case with them or something and try to use PR against the branch of HPSP, but that would be horrible and I'd be way too embarrassed and I'm sure my employer would not like that. So no, I'm not going to do that but really it's crossed my mind. Because sometimes it's desperation, and this post is that as well.

There is no way I can afford these payments on a ten year payment plan. Not only that but this can affect career opportunities in various ways. Is there anything I can do? I tried to go active duty but they didn't want me. I'm not trying to get out of paying this, I just need to find a way to make it manageable and fair. Just like all the other people who go into public service and fall under the program I linked to... I know this may sound whiny, but it isn't fair that the military has treated me in such a way and demands so much money when others have their payments capped at 15% or so of their income.

Thank you for any help and advice.
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Perrotfish said:
Us bankruptcy an option for dealing with indebtedness to the military? Have you asked?
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I haven't really pursued that course though I brought it up with my lawyer. From the research I have done on my own an HPSP recoupment is not discharged under bankruptcy.
 
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Harrythe5th said:
This is where it gets confusing: http://www.dfas.mil/debtandclaims/militarydebts/educationdebt.html

So I'm not sure if HPSP is a "contract debt" rather than considered an education loan. My understanding is contract debts can be discharged. But the HPSP contract says the debt cannot be discharged under bankruptcy.
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Outside of getting a consolidation loan that you could spread out the payments for 30 years, not sure what you can do.

HPSP recoupment is a debt to the government which, as you have discovered, cannot be discharged with bankruptcy. Think if people could get out of taxes because they declared bankruptcy.
 
NavyFP said:
Outside of getting a consolidation loan that you could spread out the payments for 30 years, not sure what you can do.

HPSP recoupment is a debt to the government which, as you have discovered, cannot be discharged with bankruptcy. Think if people could get out of taxes because they declared bankruptcy.
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I know. I'm going to see if I can talk to someone about this: http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml But I don't really know who to talk to. DFAS policy is loan repayment at 10 years. I guess the only thing I could do is try to challenge that since they never stated that in the contract (the time frame for repayment). I kind of see this as a double standard because it's an education loan like those.

I don't know I just feel lost. Over 1,000/month for 10 years is something that just... it's hard to describe how I feel. Especially since they wouldn't let me go on active duty, despite having an ROTC background.
 
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There is no way I can afford these payments on a ten year payment plan. Not only that but this can affect career opportunities in various ways. Is there anything I can do? I tried to go active duty but they didn't want me. I'm not trying to get out of paying this, I just need to find a way to make it manageable and fair. Just like all the other people who go into public service and fall under the program I linked to... I know this may sound whiny, but it isn't fair that the military has treated me in such a way and demands so much money when others have their payments capped at 15% or so of their income.

Thank you for any help and advice


Is this through DFAS? I bet if you call them and state your situation you can workout a better repayment plan - this is more common than you think for gov recoupments
 
I think one of your problems here is that this isn't a loan, it is a debt/recoupment of prior payments for failure to complete a contract.

You need to look into programs regarding indebtedness to the government, not loan repayment programs.
 
Harrythe5th said:
I know. I'm going to see if I can talk to someone about this: http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml But I don't really know who to talk to. DFAS policy is loan repayment at 10 years. I guess the only thing I could do is try to challenge that since they never stated that in the contract (the time frame for repayment). I kind of see this as a double standard because it's an education loan like those.

I don't know I just feel lost. Over 1,000/month for 10 years is something that just... it's hard to describe how I feel. Especially since they wouldn't let me go on active duty, despite having an ROTC background.
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I wish I had something to offer. This situation sucks, but I don't think any of us have been through it, and it sounds like you already have a good lawyer on your side. Good luck, I hope you win.
 
If you were thinking of pleading your case in the media, Fox & Friends is the last place you go unless you want to tie it to Obama as his fault. CNN would be more appropriate. They would dramatize it a bit. There was an active duty radiology resident who got kicked out of BAMC program for bad conduct. He went to CNN on the Anderson Cooper show with all sorts of allegations.
 
jabreal00 said:
If you were thinking of pleading your case in the media, Fox & Friends is the last place you go unless you want to tie it to Obama as his fault. CNN would be more appropriate. They would dramatize it a bit. There was an active duty radiology resident who got kicked out of BAMC program for bad conduct. He went to CNN on the Anderson Cooper show with all sorts of allegations.
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I remember that guy. Someone mentioned it on SDN about a year ago. I wonder whatever happened to him.
 
jabreal00 said:
If you were thinking of pleading your case in the media, Fox & Friends is the last place you go unless you want to tie it to Obama as his fault. CNN would be more appropriate. They would dramatize it a bit. There was an active duty radiology resident who got kicked out of BAMC program for bad conduct. He went to CNN on the Anderson Cooper show with all sorts of allegations.
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That's more like one of those things you want to do, but only talk the talk. I don't think I could ever do something like that.

But we'll see how it goes with a hardship application. I recently talked to a DFAS customer service agent who was quite helpful and very informative.
 
I'd skip the media idea. You may not generate the response you are looking for.
How about a letter to your senator and/or representative? If you show them you are not looking for a handout, but simply more reasonable terms, you might get some help. I suspect a few well placed phone calls could turn the trick.
Lastly, I hope you are keeping an eye on your lawyers time clock, if you know what I mean.
Good Luck.
 
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Harrythe5th said:
I know. I'm going to see if I can talk to someone about this: http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml But I don't really know who to talk to. DFAS policy is loan repayment at 10 years. I guess the only thing I could do is try to challenge that since they never stated that in the contract (the time frame for repayment). I kind of see this as a double standard because it's an education loan like those.

I don't know I just feel lost. Over 1,000/month for 10 years is something that just... it's hard to describe how I feel. Especially since they wouldn't let me go on active duty, despite having an ROTC background.
Click to expand...

Your overall situation is pretty unfortunate since I'm assuming you have to pay back the monthly stipend in addition to tuition + fees incurred that the military paid out. Why the hell should they military care about grades as long as you complete medical school on time with passing USMLE scores? I'm assuming you're still attending full-time and you haven't been ejected from your school. If you don't mind further probing, what branch is this? I want to know since I'm in the HPSP applicant pool.
 
War Machine said:
Your overall situation is pretty unfortunate since I'm assuming you have to pay back the monthly stipend in addition to tuition + fees incurred that the military paid out. Why the hell should they military care about grades as long as you complete medical school on time with passing USMLE scores? I'm assuming you're still attending full-time and you haven't been ejected from your school. If you don't mind further probing, what branch is this? I want to know since I'm in the HPSP applicant pool.
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Go back and read the original post again. The OP is now working a "public service" job. I don't think they are still in medical school....
 
backrow said:
Go back and read the original post again. The OP is now working a "public service" job. I don't think they are still in medical school.
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Oops, I see it now! I had the assumption of leave of absence in the back of my mind and the public service job being something to support him/herself during the absence period.

OP, any chance that you can serve your military obligation in a civilian capacity since you're not qualified for active duty commissioned service? How does the service handle medical / dental students on HPSP who may need to remediate? Unfortunate situation but I hope you can push through it.

Good luck!
 
It's not an education loan. It's also not a scholarship. It's a binding legal contract and you breached it by failing out of medical school.

There's also more to this story. Why could they, "not find an active-duty spot" for you? It's easy to stick an admin MSC guy anywhere to shuffle paperwork around. Yours is the first time I have heard of the military seeking recoupment rather than service as payback, so something is missing from this story. Were you overweight? Have some disqualifying condition? Commit a felony?

I know of some people who tried to weasel out of other obligations and ended up being forced to enter as enlisted rather than an officer.
 
HooahDOc said:
It's not an education loan. It's also not a scholarship. It's a binding legal contract and you breached it by failing out of medical school.

There's also more to this story. Why could they, "not find an active-duty spot" for you? It's easy to stick an admin MSC guy anywhere to shuffle paperwork around. Yours is the first time I have heard of the military seeking recoupment rather than service as payback, so something is missing from this story. Were you overweight? Have some disqualifying condition? Commit a felony?

I know of some people who tried to weasel out of other obligations and ended up being forced to enter as enlisted rather than an officer.
Click to expand...

Its easy to stick an MSC guy anywhere but there is a surplus of MSC guy candidates and also, I believe, a set of qualifications to become an MSC guy that he doesn't have. We forget about it in the medical corps, but in many other parts of the military they're trying very hard to reduce the number of officers on the payroll, they might not be inclined to make work for someone right now.

Unfortunately the military obligation isn't really analagous to any other type of debt. If it was an education loan he could spread the payment out and then discharge it after a certain amount of time in a public service job. If it was a scholarship he wouldn't owe anything at all. If it was a contract he would have the option of discharching the debt in bankruptcy. It is none of those things, it's a military obligation. I think he's doing the right thing speaking to a lawyer who would know whatever loopholes actually exist.
 
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HooahDOc said:
It's not an education loan. It's also not a scholarship. It's a binding legal contract and you breached it by failing out of medical school.

There's also more to this story. Why could they, "not find an active-duty spot" for you? It's easy to stick an admin MSC guy anywhere to shuffle paperwork around. Yours is the first time I have heard of the military seeking recoupment rather than service as payback, so something is missing from this story. Were you overweight? Have some disqualifying condition? Commit a felony?

I know of some people who tried to weasel out of other obligations and ended up being forced to enter as enlisted rather than an officer.
Click to expand...

The Navy is not allowing those who fail out of medical school to enter active service. We want our money back.
 
HooahDOc said:
It's not an education loan. It's also not a scholarship. It's a binding legal contract and you breached it by failing out of medical school.

There's also more to this story. Why could they, "not find an active-duty spot" for you? It's easy to stick an admin MSC guy anywhere to shuffle paperwork around. Yours is the first time I have heard of the military seeking recoupment rather than service as payback, so something is missing from this story. Were you overweight? Have some disqualifying condition? Commit a felony?

I know of some people who tried to weasel out of other obligations and ended up being forced to enter as enlisted rather than an officer.
Click to expand...


I have no debilitating conditions, no criminal record, no nothing that would disqualify me. I fought the discharge for almost a year and a half. I made many phone calls to people outside the "chain of command" of HPSP and went over some peoples' heads to stay in. They gave me one thing, and that was to take a nuclear power test... which was like... really? I hadn't studied an equation of calculus in like 4 years at that point. It didn't work out well, and they pushed my test up about 3 weeks or so, so that was even less time to prepare.

They told me there was nothing. I said I would do anything. I'd command a desk. I wanted to be active duty and serve my time back. They said there was nothing except for nuclear power. I took their nuclear power "offer" and saw it as a way for them to effectively say they offered me something and I would thus be blamed or whatever when I didn't pass that test. It was a dead end from the get go. What were the chances of passing the test? None to nothing, in my opinion. But I tried and studied as best I could but no luck.

It was the Navy. The Army people I talked to said I could apply to OCS and that if I had been in their med program I'd have gone MSC. I wanted to be in the military but when the recruiter said I could apply to OCS (it went through his entire chain of command and took like 2 months to get an answer this past summer) I had already been hired into a great public services job I can make into a very rewarding and fulfilling career. I couldn't risk turning down the job offer I had on the table to maybe get into OCS (there were few spots available anyway) and I don't regret not trying for Army OCS because this job I have will be awesome.

It's just public service jobs don't start at 75k a year and I'll never receive huge bonuses (no bonuses at all, really) and the area I moved to has high cost of living. If I wasn't receiving financial help from my parents I could not afford what I consider a very modest lifestyle.
 
Harrythe5th said:
It's just public service jobs don't start at 75k a year and I'll never receive huge bonuses (no bonuses at all, really) and the area I moved to has high cost of living. If I wasn't receiving financial help from my parents I could not afford what I consider a very modest lifestyle.
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So basically you took a lowish paying job in an area with a very high cost of living? I think that's a big part of the problem right there. Have you considered finding a part time job to supplement your income?

Welcome to the real world! Just be glad you have parents that are helping you out. Not everybody is so fortunate.
 
Mirror Form said:
So basically you took a lowish paying job in an area with a very high cost of living? I think that's a big part of the problem right there. Have you considered finding a part time job to supplement your income?

Welcome to the real world! Just be glad you have parents that are helping you out. Not everybody is so fortunate.
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Um... no. My job pays well and really, it pays very well for my needs (excluding the recoupment) but not well enough to compensate for a $1,000+ bill coming every month that isn't related to mortgage, utilities, car payments, or anything like that. I was making an offhand comment about a starting salary that could be "generous" and make paying for the recoupment no problem. I know few jobs that start at such a sum coming from a life science background (wish I had gone engineering). There are also other benefits like retirement plans and health insurance (mandatory participation in both) which are also very good. I'm around the 55th to 58th percentile in income if I'm reading Wikipedia right. I wouldn't classify it was "lowish paying" but compared to military medicine I guess it is, lol. (it's a sad laugh... ;):()

The most disappointing thing is that while I know I wouldn't have made a good doctor (obviously) I know I'd have been a good officer. It's just very frustrating and disheartening to not have the chance to do it. The thing is they aren't making me pay back ROTC and I wish I just hadn't changed my mind so late, things would be different.
 
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Harrythe5th said:
Um... no. My job pays well and really, it pays very well for my needs (excluding the recoupment) but not well enough to compensate for a $1,000+ bill coming every month that isn't related to mortgage, utilities, car payments, or anything like that.
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If you're paying $1k/month for your med school, then your problem is no different from anyone who drops out of med school and has to pay it back. This isn't a military thing, it's a dropping out of med school thing. Whether its HPSP or Fannie Mae, you have to pay the piper. This is the price for dropping out. Everyone pays it.
 
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notdeadyet said:
If you're paying $1k/month for your med school, then your problem is no different from anyone who drops out of med school and has to pay it back. This isn't a military thing, it's a dropping out of med school thing. Whether its HPSP or Fannie Mae, you have to pay the piper. This is the price for dropping out. Everyone pays it.
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Indeed. The problem is they want it over ten years at a rate I can't afford. I'm looking for solutions to make it more affordable and push the payments over more years. The problem is again the military as this is considered a military obligation (which makes no sense but that is not here nor there at the moment) yet everyone else it'd be considered a loan or scholarship which are subject to different rules and repayment options. While you may or may not agree with what I am about to say, I think it is only fair that the same options be extended at this point, since there is no longer a military option, as it is now repayment of school-based debt... student "loans" and should fall under the same provisions.

This isn't an attempt to get out of it. It's an attempt to live a life where I don't have to work almost two weeks to pay for one month's repayment. That's sort of, you know... really difficult and quite stressful. If it weren't for my parents helping, between this and unforeseen expenses I'd be in a horrible situation. That's not really a way to live. I made a mistake and screwed up. What grinds me is that I know some people (I knew these people personally) who failed one, or even two training pipelines for various branches and got second or third chances. I'd have taken a second chance to serve my time, plus years, and still pay the money back if they'd just let me go active duty. Yeah, I'd have taken that to go active and still owe them money if they'd offered but they had "nothing" available. Not only that, but the people who were dealing with my case had no idea how to properly handle it and handed me off to two separate individuals who were the wrong people to handle the case. It took almost 13 to 15 months for them to get me in contact with the right people, and this was after probably 30 to 40 phone calls, many, many emails, and meeting with an admiral who made phone calls on my behalf.
 
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