Supreme Court is hearing arguments to overturn CO conversion therapy ban

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So if I told a patient to do something that would more than likely cause them harm, I'm good? It's free speech? Board can't do **** about it?

What in the world.

That's kind of my point in this. We (healthcare) already do this all the time in medicine in general and mental health.
 
That's kind of my point in this. We (healthcare) already do this all the time in medicine in general and mental health.
And unfortunately a ruling like this is going to lead to fewer board complaints being sustained (or even being made), and fewer malpractice suits let alone winning ones against people who are legitimately causing harm. It contributes to the delegitimization of the field.
 
And unfortunately a ruling like this is going to lead to fewer board complaints being sustained (or even being made), and fewer malpractice suits let alone winning ones against people who are legitimately causing harm. It contributes to the delegitimization of the field.

Honesty, I don't see it having anything to do with the vast majority of board complaints. I've followed the states I've been licensed in for years. It's almost always multiple or inappropriate relationships. I have never seen a board complaint related to treatment type in my years of following. I'm sure it exists somewhere, I've just never seen it, so I sincerely doubt this will affect that specific issue in any meaningful way.
 
So if I told a patient to do something that would more than likely cause them harm, I'm good? It's free speech? Board can't do **** about it?

What in the world.
What's interesting is it only challenges state laws that ban the practice. Boards could very well set their own standards, and it would be interesting to see how those cases would shake out. I think the easiest way to tackle it would be that a lack of assent on the part of the client (were there to not be assent, as this often seems to be parent-driven), combined with the ineffectivness and demonstrable harm of the therapy, could represent harming patients without their willing assent to treatment in the first place, which may violate professional standards without violating the first amendment
 
What's interesting is it only challenges state laws that ban the practice. Boards could very well set their own standards, and it would be interesting to see how those cases would shake out. I think the easiest way to tackle it would be that a lack of assent on the part of the client (were there to not be assent, as this often seems to be parent-driven), combined with the ineffectivness and demonstrable harm of the therapy, could represent harming patients without their willing assent to treatment in the first place, which may violate professional standards without violating the first amendment

In her dissenting opinion (which she read from the bench), Jackson worries about the ability for states to regulate medical treatment without infringing on on practitioners first amendment rights, but it will be interesting to see if this may motivate some (courageous) boards to be more scrupulous of standard-of-care complaints.
 
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What's interesting is it only challenges state laws that ban the practice. Boards could very well set their own standards, and it would be interesting to see how those cases would shake out. I think the easiest way to tackle it would be that a lack of assent on the part of the client (were there to not be assent, as this often seems to be parent-driven), combined with the ineffectivness and demonstrable harm of the therapy, could represent harming patients without their willing assent to treatment in the first place, which may violate professional standards without violating the first amendment
The counter to your argument: the 2018 Right to Try act allows people to consent to completely unproven treatments, under certain conditions. FILA ruling says the state can't prohibit specific speech. But rule that provides conditions for when someone could consent to conversion might work. I guess if CO says it's legal for someone to hire a dominitrax to kick their crotch (actually legal), then the issue isn't about being able to consent to harm*.

* that was a weird google search.
 
The counter to your argument: the 2018 Right to Try act allows people to consent to completely unproven treatments, under certain conditions. FILA ruling says the state can't prohibit specific speech. But rule that provides conditions for when someone could consent to conversion might work. I guess if CO says it's legal for someone to hire a dominitrax to kick their crotch (actually legal), then the issue isn't about being able to consent to harm*.

* that was a weird google search.
I think the concern I have is more for the teens that aren't necessarily consenting, and actively are opposed to the treatment but enrolled by their parents, as is often the case. To provide a harmful treatment without the patient assenting/consenting would violate nonmaleficence, autonomy, consent, and beneficence across the board. To be honest, I think if a patient is fully consenting (or assenting, in the case of a teen) and actually wants this particular treatment then it should very well be their right. While I don't agree that it is helpful, it is generally done under the auspices of religion rather than psychology, and with that being the angle, it changes the ethical calculus when a participant is willing to engage.
 
I think the concern I have is more for the teens that aren't necessarily consenting, and actively are opposed to the treatment but enrolled by their parents, as is often the case. To provide a harmful treatment without the patient assenting/consenting would violate nonmaleficence, autonomy, consent, and beneficence across the board. To be honest, I think if a patient is fully consenting (or assenting, in the case of a teen) and actually wants this particular treatment then it should very well be their right. While I don't agree that it is helpful, it is generally done under the auspices of religion rather than psychology, and with that being the angle, it changes the ethical calculus when a participant is willing to engage.

This is also my take, and ultimately, why I think the case turned out like it did from a legal standpoint as they were making a 1A argument.
 
I think the concern I have is more for the teens that aren't necessarily consenting, and actively are opposed to the treatment but enrolled by their parents, as is often the case. To provide a harmful treatment without the patient assenting/consenting would violate nonmaleficence, autonomy, consent, and beneficence across the board. To be honest, I think if a patient is fully consenting (or assenting, in the case of a teen) and actually wants this particular treatment then it should very well be their right. While I don't agree that it is helpful, it is generally done under the auspices of religion rather than psychology, and with that being the angle, it changes the ethical calculus when a participant is willing to engage.
The issue with the last part is that the plantiff in this case is a licensed counselor working under her counseling license. If she were, say, clergy doing "pastoral counseling", that would be different as there's no real medical/healthcare provider relationship there.
 
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I think people, especially those in academia, overestimate how much intellectual debate goes on in court settings. This went about how I thought it would.

What always shocks me about this is how easy it can be to predict exactly how major current SCOTUS decisions will go based on previous rulings ... and I still know some pretty intelligent people who are shocked. Like, if Clarence Thomas' court rulings still surprise you, that's on you at this point as these justices aren't exactly hiding their positions.
 
What always shocks me about this is how easy it can be to predict exactly how major current SCOTUS decisions will go based on previous rulings ... and I still know some pretty intelligent people who are shocked. Like, if Clarence Thomas' court rulings still surprise you, that's on you at this point as these justices aren't exactly hiding their positions.

There are still some surprises from justices like Gorsuch, Roberts, and Barrett, but Thomas and Alito will pretty much never waver from the ruling that a GOP administration wants.

 
Speaking of the majority opinion. Did anyone else feel slighted by the whole "well not too long ago homosexuality was perceived as a mental illness, so you never know who is right?" It's annoying as it was our field's ability to regulate itself that lead to homosexuality being removed from the DSM. Maybe I'm missing something, but it felt like a pretty weak example to the point that was trying to be made.
 
Speaking of the majority opinion. Did anyone else feel slighted by the whole "well not too long ago homosexuality was perceived as a mental illness, so you never know who is right?" It's annoying as it was our field's ability to regulate itself that lead to homosexuality being removed from the DSM. Maybe I'm missing something, but it felt like a pretty weak example to the point that was trying to be made.
I think the major issue is that it isn't the field regulating itself, in this case, but rather the state passing laws that regulate the field. That's why I was curious whether a board might be able to intervene where the state has not, as the board sets standards of care under typical circumstances, not the state
 
The issue with the last part is that the plantiff in this case is a licensed counselor working under her counseling license. If she were, say, clergy doing "pastoral counseling", that would be different as there's no real medical/healthcare provider relationship there.
But this is where the whole freedom of speech bit comes in- can one willing therapist and one willing patient who have a congruent belief system rooted in faith utilize a treatment that they believe in, as a matter of faith, despite it being contrary to thought within the field? Generally, the courts have upheld that this is acceptable, as in the case of Christian Scientists, physicians doing all sort of unsupported things for alternative medicine clinics, etc. It could be considered an alternative treatment aligned with one's faith, as much as a physician offering reiki for cancer could be offering alternative spiritual medicine and not lose their license.

Again, this all assumes a willing patient. My concern is for those teens that are unwilling to engage in this kind of therapy, as spiritual beliefs do not trump ethics in such cases.
 
There are still some surprises from justices like Gorsuch, Roberts, and Barrett, but Thomas and Alito will pretty much never waver from the ruling that a GOP administration wants.


Yeah, the birthright citizenship hearing was today and a lot of people are predicting a 7-2 split (maybe even 8-1, but probably not).
 
But this is where the whole freedom of speech bit comes in- can one willing therapist and one willing patient who have a congruent belief system rooted in faith utilize a treatment that they believe in, as a matter of faith, despite it being contrary to thought within the field? Generally, the courts have upheld that this is acceptable, as in the case of Christian Scientists, physicians doing all sort of unsupported things for alternative medicine clinics, etc. It could be considered an alternative treatment aligned with one's faith, as much as a physician offering reiki for cancer could be offering alternative spiritual medicine and not lose their license

Had Chiles been doing aversion or shock therapy on an assenting adolescent with familial consent (assuming the family didn't bully or manipulate the child into assent), I suspect the majority would suddenly find greater legitimacy in scientific consensus on the manner.
 
Yeah, the birthright citizenship hearing was today and a lot of people are predicting a 7-2 split (maybe even 8-1, but probably not).

Yeah, this one is complicated. If they are looking at just the EO, I suspect they'll rule against the Trump admin. This is something they'll likely have to return to Congress to legislate. Depending on how they define Birthright Citizenship, the support/disapproval among Us citizens is highly variable.

 
Yeah, the birthright citizenship hearing was today and a lot of people are predicting a 7-2 split (maybe even 8-1, but probably not).
Honestly, I don't trust this Supreme Court enough to trust that it's a definite "no" to the EO, even though the constitution is clear.
 
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Honestly, I don't trust this Supreme Court enough to trust that it's a definite "no" to the EO, even though the constitution is clear.

I suspect this hinges on the interpretation of "subject to the jurisdiction" and how Fleming v. Page is used in arguments. There is still some ambiguity in the wording.
 
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