Importance of research experience and how to include in applications?

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monkeyMD

monkeyMD

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For research heavy schools, how important is research? Why is it important? (I know these questions are probably very common, but I am looking for current opinions on this topic). And since it is so important, how can you show that in the primary applications? Do you write about it in the essay?

Another question is why research heavy schools want students with good research experience. Do med school students take part in research during the med school years? People have pointed out that you often do not do research during med school...so why do many med schools want students with research experience?
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monkeyMD said:
For research heavy schools, how important is research? Why is it important? (I know these questions are probably very common, but I am looking for current opinions on this topic). And since it is so important, how can you show that in the primary applications? Do you write about it in the essay?

Another question is why research heavy schools want students with good research experience. Do med school students take part in research during the med school years? People have pointed out that you often do not do research during med school...so why do many med schools want students with research experience?
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The top research heavy schools are at the top because they have the most federally funded research of all the med schools in the US. This means they have lots of labs and would like to have student "worker bees" helping in those labs during the summer after first year & at other times including taking a year off to do research (often done by those wanting to go into certain fields). These schools also fancy themselves as incubators of future academic physicians (who will do research/teaching/patient care) and the expectation is that people who have had research experience in college will be more inclined along that path than those who have not had research experience.

The primary (AMCAS) application has a section called "experiences" in which an applicant describes up to 15 significant experiences. Research is one category of experience that would be detailed here. Some people also write about it in the essay or include it in the supplemental application if prompted to do so.
 
Thanks for the detailed response. That really does make sense.

Do you know what percentage of MDs actually choose to go into academic medicine (without being MD/PhD)?
 
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monkeyMD said:
Thanks for the detailed response. That really does make sense.

Do you know what percentage of MDs actually choose to go into academic medicine (without being MD/PhD)?
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Well there are dozens if not hundreds of MDs on the payroll at each medical school in the country in addition to the thousands who serve as voluntary faculty (supporting themselves through patient care while providing some bedside teaching and other service in exchange for the honor of a faculty appointment and the privlege of admitting patients to the medical school affiliate hospital).
 
LizzyM said:
Well there are dozens if not hundreds of MDs on the payroll at each medical school in the country in addition to the thousands who serve as voluntary faculty (supporting themselves through patient care while providing some bedside teaching and other service in exchange for the honor of a faculty appointment and the privlege of admitting patients to the medical school affiliate hospital).
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LizzyM, if you don't mind, I would like to hear more about voluntary faculty. How does this happen, networking? What would you say about time allocation between patient care and and teaching. How does that differ from a academic physician? Salary? Lifestyle?

This is interesting.
 
When you are ready for your first job after residency, you are likely to be looking for a job/recruited. So how you get a job as a member of the voluntary faculty is like getting any other job: lots of networking, some schmoozing.

Let's say you are an OB/GYN. In all likelihood you will join a group practice and in all likelihood you will apply for privileges at one or more hospitals where members of the group have admitting privileges (so that you can cross cover for one another at deliveries, etc). You might join a practice at a small community hospital that does not have a residency program. You will be in private practice.

On the other hand, you might join a practice that is affiliated with hospital that is affiliated with a medical school. This usually means an additional step of being vetted by the medical school in addition to having your credentials examined by the partners in the practice and the hospital. If the medical school thinks you are good enough, then you're in! In addition to being an attending physician at the hospital and being in private practice, you will have a title such as Assistant Professor of Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology or Instructor in Clinical.... This is not tenure track and you will not receive income from the university; you are expected to support yourself through your private practice and your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the practice group (number of nights on call each month, number of weekends on call, etc). You will, however, be expected to give of your time teaching at the bedside and supervising residents a month or two each year, serving on committees that might meet for a few hours per month for a set period of time (e.g. as a new curriculum is being developed), teaching physical diagnosis skills and supervising students who are learning to take histories and perform physicals or serving as a small group leader for PBL or similar small group learning for part of a year (maybe 2-4 hrs/wk for 10 wks). Some people will try to do the least they can get away with and others will volunteer more. Being a med school interviewer is one service that private practice docs get asked to do because it is a discrete time commitment (e.g. 2 half days a month for 6 months).
 
LizzyM said:
When you are ready for your first job after residency, you are likely to be looking for a job/recruited. So how you get a job as a member of the voluntary faculty is like getting any other job: lots of networking, some schmoozing.

Let's say you are an OB/GYN. In all likelihood you will join a group practice and in all likelihood you will apply for privileges at one or more hospitals where members of the group have admitting privileges (so that you can cross cover for one another at deliveries, etc). You might join a practice at a small community hospital that does not have a residency program. You will be in private practice.

On the other hand, you might join a practice that is affiliated with hospital that is affiliated with a medical school. This usually means an additional step of being vetted by the medical school in addition to having your credentials examined by the partners in the practice and the hospital. If the medical school thinks you are good enough, then you're in! In addition to being an attending physician at the hospital and being in private practice, you will have a title such as Assistant Professor of Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology or Instructor in Clinical.... This is not tenure track and you will not receive income from the university; you are expected to support yourself through your private practice and your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the practice group (number of nights on call each month, number of weekends on call, etc). You will, however, be expected to give of your time teaching at the bedside and supervising residents a month or two each year, serving on committees that might meet for a few hours per month for a set period of time (e.g. as a new curriculum is being developed), teaching physical diagnosis skills and supervising students who are learning to take histories and perform physicals or serving as a small group leader for PBL or similar small group learning for part of a year (maybe 2-4 hrs/wk for 10 wks). Some people will try to do the least they can get away with and others will volunteer more. Being a med school interviewer is one service that private practice docs get asked to do because it is a discrete time commitment (e.g. 2 half days a month for 6 months).
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This sounds like something I would be interested it. Thanks
 
I know medical schools like to see depth and commitment in EC's. But if I were to do lets say...*4* different types of research over my undergrad career. Lets say:

1st summer: Hypertension Research
Sophomore year: Neurosurgery research
2nd summer: Heart failure research
Junior year: Neurosurgery/Neurology research.

Thats 3 different types of research out of 4 times research was completed. Does this look bad? I'm interested in research, but not sure what field I actually want to specialize in. For top schools (specifically stanford) do adcoms like to see that you stuck to one field and got published? Or does it look *better* that I had different research fields, but all of them were research, and I participated in studies/projects etc.

To what extent is "what" you do when you research looked at? Is being a research assistant enough? Or am I expected to be on a team and have my name on a published paper? If I just do things that an assistant would do (gel electrophoresis, western blot, etc.) would that look *worse* than say...someone who is responsible for cell cultures? Basically what I'm asking is if being a research assistant is "good enough" for the top med schools, since, I'm looking to have 2 years and 2 summers of research by the time I apply, but I won't know exactly what I'll be doing.
 
impulse462 said:
I know medical schools like to see depth and commitment in EC's. But if I were to do lets say...*4* different types of research over my undergrad career. <snip> For top schools (specifically stanford) do adcoms like to see that you stuck to one field and got published? Or does it look *better* that I had different research fields, but all of them were research, and I participated in studies/projects etc.

To what extent is "what" you do when you research looked at? Is being a research assistant enough? Or am I expected to be on a team and have my name on a published paper? If I just do things that an assistant would do (gel electrophoresis, western blot, etc.) would that look *worse* than say...someone who is responsible for cell cultures? Basically what I'm asking is if being a research assistant is "good enough" for the top med schools, since, I'm looking to have 2 years and 2 summers of research by the time I apply, but I won't know exactly what I'll be doing.
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Getting published is the ultimate. Presenting at a conference is a close second. Being a research assistant is OK but not great. More than research about this or that disease, you should be thinking about techniques you'd like to learn and build from one experience to the next.
 
LizzyM said:
Well there are dozens if not hundreds of MDs on the payroll at each medical school in the country in addition to the thousands who serve as voluntary faculty (supporting themselves through patient care while providing some bedside teaching and other service in exchange for the honor of a faculty appointment and the privlege of admitting patients to the medical school affiliate hospital).
Click to expand...

can you be an academic physician in primary care?
 
LizzyM said:
............

On the other hand, you might join a practice that is affiliated with hospital that is affiliated with a medical school. This usually means an additional step of being vetted by the medical school in addition to having your credentials examined by the partners in the practice and the hospital. If the medical school thinks you are good enough, then you're in! In addition to being an attending physician at the hospital and being in private practice, you will have a title such as Assistant Professor of Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology or Instructor in Clinical.... This is not tenure track and you will not receive income from the university; you are expected to support yourself through your private practice and your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the practice group (number of nights on call each month, number of weekends on call, etc). You will, however, be expected to give of your time teaching at the bedside and supervising residents a month or two each year, serving on committees that might meet for a few hours per month for a set period of time (e.g. as a new curriculum is being developed), teaching physical diagnosis skills and supervising students who are learning to take histories and perform physicals or serving as a small group leader for PBL or similar small group learning for part of a year (maybe 2-4 hrs/wk for 10 wks). Some people will try to do the least they can get away with and others will volunteer more. Being a med school interviewer is one service that private practice docs get asked to do because it is a discrete time commitment (e.g. 2 half days a month for 6 months).
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This sounds like my kinda gig!
 
LizzyM said:
Of course! My husband's internist is one. Many general pediatricians affiliated with the medical school are voluntary faculty.
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what are the differences between an academic physician and voluntary faculty besides being under payroll of the med school. Are voluntary faculty considered academic physicians even though they are in private practice?
 
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Sorry LizzyM, I actually mean't to say Research Student, not assistant. It seems though however, that it really matters how you can explain what you did, and the importance, over an actual position/title you held.

But, as a student, wouldn't I be learning specific lab techniques? would that be what an assistant would do as well or no?
 
Sorry to add on to your already growing list of q's, LizzyM, but do schools distinguish between 1st, 2nd author etc. or just care that you're published if you've done over 2 years of research in the same lab? also, if they do care about which author, should i just save room in my activities section of the amcas by saying "3rd out of 16th" author instead of listing the full citation with "Smith, Jones, My name, et al." (i didn't want to say "My name, et al." b/c that implies that I'm first author). The only problem of doing it this way "Smith, Jones, My name, et al." is that schools won't know how many authors there are...and obviously it's more important to be 3rd author is there's 16 authors instead of being 3rd if theres only 4....lastly, is it absolutely crucial to describe what you contributed (i.e. "two figures from 1 expt that I analyzed") if the title is already pretty descriptive of the topic? Thanks LizzyM! :)
 
MilkIsGood said:
what are the differences between an academic physician and voluntary faculty besides being under payroll of the med school. Are voluntary faculty considered academic physicians even though they are in private practice?
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Academic physicians?? not so much. Most do no research and publish no papers. They might volunteer for 30-50 hours of service per year with applicants or students, in addition to being on service a month a year (teaching and guiding residents who are providing direct patient care). They generally have no administrative responsibilities in the med school. But they do have a academic title so in a sense they are academics.
 
edge of desire said:
Sorry to add on to your already growing list of q's, LizzyM, but do schools distinguish between 1st, 2nd author etc. or just care that you're published if you've done over 2 years of research in the same lab? also, if they do care about which author, should i just save room in my activities section of the amcas by saying "3rd out of 16th" author instead of listing the full citation with "Smith, Jones, My name, et al." (i didn't want to say "My name, et al." b/c that implies that I'm first author). The only problem of doing it this way "Smith, Jones, My name, et al." is that schools won't know how many authors there are...and obviously it's more important to be 3rd author is there's 16 authors instead of being 3rd if theres only 4....lastly, is it absolutely crucial to describe what you contributed (i.e. "two figures from 1 expt that I analyzed") if the title is already pretty descriptive of the topic? Thanks LizzyM! :)
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The citation should be as it would be if you were citing it in a bibliography:

Bauman RA, Ling G, Tong L, et al. An introductory characterization of a combat-casualty-care relevant swine model of closed head injury resulting from exposure to explosive blast. J Neurotrauma 2009;26:841-860 <-- not sure if this paper is related to Angry Birds.
 
biophilia said:
LizzyM -- Given how difficult it is to make it on the tenure track, would it be presumptuous to express an interest in academic medicine? How can one express an interest in academic medicine in a personal statement, interview, application, etc. without coming across as arrogant, obnoxious, and/or naive?
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It is very, very unusual for physicians to be on tenure track. Even those who are on the medical school payroll are expected to bring in the bulk of their income through patient care and research grants unless they have administrative responsibilities such as Assistant Dean of ___, or clerkship director, residency director, etc. in which case some of their funding comes from the medical school administrative budget.

It is reasonable to say that in addition to patient care, one wishes to be involved in clinical research and teaching/mentoring in an academic setting. In some specialties, such as pediatric oncology, it is highly unusual not to be in academic medicine.
 
impulse462 said:
Sorry LizzyM, I actually mean't to say Research Student, not assistant. It seems though however, that it really matters how you can explain what you did, and the importance, over an actual position/title you held.

But, as a student, wouldn't I be learning specific lab techniques? would that be what an assistant would do as well or no?
Click to expand...

I've never heard of a research student.... most of the students I've seen list themselves as research assistants. (This is separate from what you might learn in a lab based course.) Most often research assistants work under a doctoral student or post-doc although some work directly with a PI (principal investigator). Some students start out with "housekeeping", ordering and storing supplies, mixing solutions, cleaning cages and/or glassware. In some labs, everyone is expected to do their share of the housekeeping even as they climb the ladder. Students might be given a small task such as determining the optimal medium for the growth of cells that are being used in the lab. The student would read up on the techniques, try different things, keep a neat notebook and report back on what works or doesn't work. Along the way, you are learning techniques. Some students sort insects by sex, perform small animal surgery, etc. Is this what you are asking?
 
biophilia said:
Interesting. So most physicians on the medical school payroll are on a research and/or teaching (educator) and/or clinician non-tenure track (http://medicine.med.nyu.edu/dgim/files/med_dgim/attachments/revised-faculty-titles-2010.pdf)? It looks like some schools allow physicians to move from one track to another. Is this unusual?
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Clinical track usually means you support yourself through clinical care. Research track means supporting yourself on research grants.

Some people do hop. I'm not sure how common it is.
 
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