SOAPing people!

eagle2007 said:

I got an offer and accepted. It's not one I really wanted, but I guess beggars can't be choosers. Good luck to everyone else.

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congratulations.

punch said:

congratulations.

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Thank you. I hope you and everyone else gets something. My spot was in pre-lim surgery.

Congrats to everyone who got offers.

As for me, my girl scout cookies offered some condolence until round 2

Congratulations to everyone who's SOAP matching. Can you all do me a favor and tell your respective PD's to give MrBigLips an offer?

...Thanks in advance!

I do not understand the purpose of going through "rounds". If I am a PD and I have a preference list with a least 8 applicants for every available position I have to fill, I do not see the point of having people adding every few hrs applications to my "1000s ERAS applicant list" when all I have to do is wait at least 8 "rounds" to run out of desirable applicants. I would find it really hard to believe if a PD has not found at least 8 desirable applicants since Tuesday and he is willing to go to the bottom of his ERAS list to find more suitable candidates. Like I said, perhaps I am not understanding how it works.

To explain myself better, I mentioned "at least 8" from a list of who know how many (some programs got over 1000 applications) and my undestanding is that there were less than 1300 positions in all specialties combined. So.. would a PD look for needed applicants on the next 500 (just to say a number) on his ERAS list or would he look into the new applications found in each round. It confusing. By the way, thanks for the repply johnnydrama.

I guess I am just searching from some hope...

yeah johnnydrama's been really helpful the past couple of days

for those of us who are doing the second round, do we apply to 10 different programs or can we include the unfilled programs from our first cycle? My understanding was 10 different, but I had a call from a PD saying that I'm still on their list and they want me to re-apply for the 2nd round so that they can soap me, I tried but ERAS won't let me select and re-apply to that program again

What are "(M programs)"?

A= advanced

C=categorical.

johnnydrama said:

They are still creating rank lists. So let's say they interviewed 100 people out of 2000 for 8 spots and ranked all of them.

First round they fill 2 spots and 50 people on their rank list match somewhere.

Second round they fill another 2 and lose another 30 on their rank list.

So now they have another 4 spots left and a rank list of 20 people with 1500 applications from unmatched people from the first round and maybe an additional 1000 new people applying today.

They will probably fill with their 20, but I would want to interview another 50 people or so, and that could be from any of the remaining 2500 applications (both initial and additional applications).

Not sure if that helps.

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I had a completely different sense of how this process worked, though you seem to know exceedingly more than I do regarding the matter.
I was under the impression that say the PD got 2000 apps and interviewed 100 in the first round for his 8 spots. He would presumably throw out 1900 applications. He then would offer 8 of his favorite SOAP interviewees a spot during the first round.

If only 2 accepted, he would have to fill 6 more spots in the subsequent rounds. He could offer those 6 spots to people he has already spoken to during the next round, OR he could look at some NOVEL applications.

I don't know if I'm completely off on this, but this is how I came to understand it. I'm thankfully not going through this nightmare myself and I sympathize with anyone who is.

In fact, once the process becomes a little clearer after this unfortunate trial-and-error run, I believe strategy is going to play a big role in the future.

I imagine 3 types of SOAP applicants:
1) The hot-head - This character ranked only 3 ultra-competitive programs despite having interviewed at a multitude and despite his dean's pleading against doing so. After all, his top program told him he'd be a good fit.

2) The advanced - An average to excellent candidate who, for whatever reason, needed a particular prelim year under very specific conditions. This limited his options for prelim programs during the interview season and he, unfortunately, went unmatched.

3) The disadvantaged - The majority of the SOAPers. Composed of mostly IMG/FMG/DO and non-competitive US MD's.

Program directors during the first round of SOAP will be inundated with thousands of applications. They can, in no way, interview all of them, so they choose a handful of the most impressive. The rest GO IN THE GARBAGE. Individuals from group 3 cannot afford to go head-to-head with those in group 1 lest they end up scrapped during the first round of SOAP.

If I were toughing out this process and I was able to acknowledge that my application is a Group 3, I probably would have applied to less competitive programs during the first round and MORE competitive programs during the second round. I would see this as a strategy to avoid cut-offs in the first round.

how are the phone interviews being conducted?
Are they like regular interviews, with why this program, why this specialty, why didn't you match or more philosophical type questions.

You know, even though I've had no luck personally with SOAP this year, I do think it's a MUCH better system than the previous Scramble. I just wish it had been in place back when I was the kind of applicant it's designed to benefit.

USMELL said:

how are the phone interviews being conducted?
Are they like regular interviews, with why this program, why this specialty, why didn't you match or more philosophical type questions.

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Thats how mine were. But most started off trying to sell their program. Usually first i was conected to a resident who i supose works as a weed out. Then PD or faculty member. I was asked why i didnt match ( i ranked only 2 programs like a ****** so i deserved going through this). At one phone interview they called and scheduled first and i was called at particular time and was put on speaker and interviewed by 4 faculty members and a resident.

I think i got extremly lucky with soap and matched to where i wanted to go out of those when i applied to 10 soap programs. The program i accepted offer from had 2 spots open and got over 2000 applications so i seriously feel like i should go play lotto today
But i did make sure to show how interested i was in the program and i think that might have made some difference. Cause i was sure YES and they might have given me that offer just because they knew i will accept. I was also called about 45 min before offers were extended from that program PD who said they are giving me offer in first round and hope i will accept. And i said to him i would be extatic and hellz yeah so maybe that made a difference too.

But i was honestly a quite competetive aplicant and didnt match due to stupidity ( im not gonna even go in to much detail about all the letters and comunication of how great of the fit i am for the programs that apparently didnt even rank me in primary match. I guess its just politics of it all and they say that to everyone just to make sure everyone ranks them high and they fill)...it is what it is. I am so blessed to be done and ended up in an amazing prestigous program in a large city that if not for soap most likely wouldnt prolly even interview me.

I truly hope you all match somewhere. But if not theres always other options. If youre a DO theres a lot of spots still open in AOA scramble. If you are an IMG and will have to do something for a year do something amazing, make yourself into a better applicant. Nothing is lost. Every experiance is there for a reason. And do not give up. These hurdles arent there to stop you! But just there to show ou how much you want it and how hard you are willing tonwork for it. You will be a great physician ! Dont let this stupid process make you feel like you are less of anything. Apply next year to million positions and you will match.

Good luck to you guys all. I will try pop in later if anyone has any questions.

"Why didn't you match?"

Again, why would they ask this right now? There are only about 2 [obvious] answers to that question anyway.

Hello aPD, are there people who get offers without being interviewed?

aProgDirector said:

M programs are Primary Care. They are 3 year categorical programs that have a focus on outpatient/continuity medicine. They are basically the same as C programs.

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Thanks. I wish I knew that earlier.

I wish everyone the best of luck tomorrow. We have all worked so hard to get to where we are at and need to find jobs to support ourselves and our families...esp in this economically challenged time. I am not sure what I will do if I don't match, but I will have to keep trying to fight to work in my career of medicine. It is my dream just as it is to so many of us.

hmm...

still no offer for me...

i think a year in research is what is in my future then reapply next year

no offer either, i feel liek i shoulda accepted im not gonna get a job weds but this false hope is really messing with me

Can someone help clarify something please. How do you apply to a primary care track of a program or even prelim when eras doesn't give you the option. For example program X has one Cat position left but eight primary care spots still remaining. Same goes for surgery prelims, you can't choose cat vs. prelim. When I choose the program in eras there is no check box like there normally would be. Do the programs just consider you for both or how do you let them know you are applying for one or the other if we can't contact them. Thanks.

techinically no, realistically for a lot of us, yes, definitely yes

I was a competitive applicant for EM and for some reason did not match. I opened the email at noon on Monday to utter shock. Had to read the first line about five times before I packed my stuff and ran out of the room where I had been sitting. I am at a writer's workshop in a very rural area of PA this week and so was not prepared to scramble. In fact, had not even considered the possibility. I have high Step scores and interviewed at ten places, none except perhaps Emory terribly competitive.

I didn't sleep all Monday night, wee hours of Tuesday morning--in part because of being so isolated from friends and family. I was devastated.

For SOAP, I applied widely to thirty places, not taking the time to change my personal statement or anything like that. Having no idea what to expect. Got one call Monday night, and about fifty on Tuesday. Programs who liked me had multiple people call me. Throughout this process I was surrounded by writers who had never heard of the match, but were all very interested and supportive and whenever I left the room I heard them make comments to each other like, "I never knew it was like this for doctors, it reminds me of the football draft or something, I'll never walk into a doctor's office again without looking at their certificates, etc".

As noon approached, several PDs called relentlessly, wanting a committment that I would take their offer if they put me first. They seemed just as shocked that they had not filled, and just as worried and desperate to get a good outcome in the process. A lot of anxiety on both sides.

At noon yesterday we were all on the edge of our seats as the page with my offers uploaded. I had ten offers and everyone cheered. Three Anes, one Radiology-Diag with a medicine Prelim year offered at the same site, they had coordinated that purposefully for me, several IM, FM, and one or two Peds.

I went with one of the Anes programs and I am relatively relieved, though still trying to adjust to my new reality as I had not been mentally/emotionally prepared for this possibility. Several of the PDs said that they had gone through my app with a fine tooth comb, looking for the red flag, looking for the F, looking for the class I had to retake, thinking there MUST be some reason I had not matched with scores and grades like I have. But there truly wasn't anything. I don't know what happened and I told them that.

If any future SOAPers have questions, please feel free to PM me.

Good luck to everyone.

Valvool said:

I was a competitive applicant for EM and for some reason did not match. I opened the email at noon on Monday to utter shock. Had to read the first line about five times before I packed my stuff and ran out of the room where I had been sitting. I am at a writer's workshop in a very rural area of PA this week and so was not prepared to scramble. In fact, had not even considered the possibility. I have high Step scores and interviewed at ten places, none except perhaps Emory terribly competitive.

I didn't sleep all Monday night, wee hours of Tuesday morning--in part because of being so isolated from friends and family. I was devastated.

For SOAP, I applied widely to thirty places, not taking the time to change my personal statement or anything like that. Having no idea what to expect. Got one call Monday night, and about fifty on Tuesday. Programs who liked me had multiple people call me. Throughout this process I was surrounded by writers who had never heard of the match, but were all very interested and supportive and whenever I left the room I heard them make comments to each other like, "I never knew it was like this for doctors, it reminds me of the football draft or something, I'll never walk into a doctor's office again without looking at their certificates, etc".

As noon approached, several PDs called relentlessly, wanting a committment that I would take their offer if they put me first. They seemed just as shocked that they had not filled, and just as worried and desperate to get a good outcome in the process. A lot of anxiety on both sides.

At noon yesterday we were all on the edge of our seats as the page with my offers uploaded. I had ten offers and everyone cheered. Three Anes, one Radiology-Diag with a medicine Prelim year offered at the same site, they had coordinated that purposefully for me, several IM, FM, and one or two Peds.

I went with one of the Anes programs and I am relatively relieved, though still trying to adjust to my new reality as I had not been mentally/emotionally prepared for this possibility. Several of the PDs said that they had gone through my app with a fine tooth comb, looking for the red flag, looking for the F, looking for the class I had to retake, thinking there MUST be some reason I had not matched with scores and grades like I have. But there truly wasn't anything. I don't know what happened and I told them that.

If any future SOAPers have questions, please feel free to PM me.

Good luck to everyone.

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Wow, even though this sounds much more standardized than the scramble it still sounds like madness.

fuk

Valvool said:

I was a competitive applicant for EM and for some reason did not match. I opened the email at noon on Monday to utter shock. Had to read the first line about five times before I packed my stuff and ran out of the room where I had been sitting. I am at a writer's workshop in a very rural area of PA this week and so was not prepared to scramble. In fact, had not even considered the possibility. I have high Step scores and interviewed at ten places, none except perhaps Emory terribly competitive.

I didn't sleep all Monday night, wee hours of Tuesday morning--in part because of being so isolated from friends and family. I was devastated.

For SOAP, I applied widely to thirty places, not taking the time to change my personal statement or anything like that. Having no idea what to expect. Got one call Monday night, and about fifty on Tuesday. Programs who liked me had multiple people call me. Throughout this process I was surrounded by writers who had never heard of the match, but were all very interested and supportive and whenever I left the room I heard them make comments to each other like, "I never knew it was like this for doctors, it reminds me of the football draft or something, I'll never walk into a doctor's office again without looking at their certificates, etc".

As noon approached, several PDs called relentlessly, wanting a committment that I would take their offer if they put me first. They seemed just as shocked that they had not filled, and just as worried and desperate to get a good outcome in the process. A lot of anxiety on both sides.

At noon yesterday we were all on the edge of our seats as the page with my offers uploaded. I had ten offers and everyone cheered. Three Anes, one Radiology-Diag with a medicine Prelim year offered at the same site, they had coordinated that purposefully for me, several IM, FM, and one or two Peds.

I went with one of the Anes programs and I am relatively relieved, though still trying to adjust to my new reality as I had not been mentally/emotionally prepared for this possibility. Several of the PDs said that they had gone through my app with a fine tooth comb, looking for the red flag, looking for the F, looking for the class I had to retake, thinking there MUST be some reason I had not matched with scores and grades like I have. But there truly wasn't anything. I don't know what happened and I told them that.

If any future SOAPers have questions, please feel free to PM me.

Good luck to everyone.

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This is almost identical to my story. I was a competitive applicant for EM (very high steps, AOA, good clinical grades, etc) but did not match. I was so devastated when I saw the email (at first I thought it was a mistake. Then I spent about 10 minutes crying before doing anything). I couldn't believe all the EM spots were taken. This is the only field that I want to do and the idea of having to do another specialty seemed like the end of the world for me. I applied to EM/IM and IM spots and got 1 offer yesterday. Thankfully it was in EM/IM so I can still follow my dream of becoming an EM doc. But I am still very disappointed and half of me still believes that this was all just a mistake. The past few days have been some of the worst of my life. I am so glad this is all over. Good luck to the rest of you still in the scramble!

app2012 said:

Thankfully it was in EM/IM so I can still follow my dream of becoming an EM doc. But I am still very disappointed and half of me still believes that this was all just a mistake.

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Perhaps you will discover that you was lucky to get both EM/IM, when you graduate, you will realize how smarter you are compared to only EM docs. No offense medicine is medicine. congrats young fellow

Now that it's pretty much over for me, even though I didn't match, I feel somewhat better than I have been feeling the past few days. I knew from the beginning that there was a chance that I wouldn't match. Now I can just accept it and apply what I have learned this year to the match next year so that I can do better. I have to admit, though, the ups and downs of no calls, then calls, then no offers, and then....well no offers was crazy.

Thanks to everyone who posted and shared their experiences. There was a lot of helpful information here, and it was somewhat cathartic to read the posts of people who were in the same boat as me.

And God speed!

Blessings!

surgicalworld said:

I wish everyone the best of luck tomorrow. We have all worked so hard to get to where we are at and need to find jobs to support ourselves and our families...esp in this economically challenged time. I am not sure what I will do if I don't match, but I will have to keep trying to fight to work in my career of medicine. It is my dream just as it is to so many of us.

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anyone knwo when we can officially harrass programs that werent in soap or still ahve unfilled spots?

PlsGimmeJob said:

anyone knwo when we can officially harrass programs that werent in soap or still ahve unfilled spots?

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5pm est today

jammed lines, full mailboxes or any love, anyone?

aProgDirector said:

This is why we switched to SOAP, it's what happened in the scramble.

Is there a final open slots list from the NRMP? Don't post it here (although now that the match is over, I don't think it's embargoed any more, but there;s that big red warning up at the top of the page from the SDN mods)

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There is.

The list isn't updated though. I called a bunch of places that on the list has open slots but when you call they say they have filled so I don't know when the list will be updated again.

Having suffered through the system, and heard multiple feedback both from applicants and program directors, here are some thoughts on the "scramble" replacement. First, it's still imperfect. Second, it's much better than what we had before.

The idea of the SOAP was to take the disorganized process of scrambling with a "first come" mentality where applicants had to spend forever faxing documents to potential programs, there was a lot of "back room" politicking as program directors and deans contacted each other on behalf of students and programs, and both applicants and residencies were often stuck with the first available offer, for better or worse. ERAS certainly made the application part easy - the board scores, CV, letters of recommendation, personal statement, and dean's letter were already in the system and could easily be downloaded for perusal by programs. I chose to modify my personal statement to fit the specialty for which I was now applying, and to add a corresponding new LOR. This all worked great ... when it worked. The downside and cause of much hair-pulling and girding of teeth by all parties was that the system ceased, that it took FOREVER for programs to download information on thousands of applicants, and there was a "hitch" in giving programs access to the USMLE transcripts in a timely manner. And since rules stated than no one can contact anyone else without first going through ERAS, there was a definite period of frustration as applicants numbly waited for phone calls while program directors with slots to fill waited to have access to those applicants' info. The actual interviewing was a bit like "speed dating" ... multiple brief encounters, with both parties trying to impress the other. I swear my cell phone battery had to be recharged four times. ... Fast forward to end of round 1, and receiving offers at noon. Simple version is: get an offer, pick one, move on with life. Real version: If a program only had two spots, only their top two candidates got an offer. Some (competitive) people got multiple offers and picked one ... the "rejected" programs now had to go through the whole blasted process again, but with a less desirable pool of applicants remaining. The applicants with no offers also now had to repeat, and hope someone would offer them a spot. This devolved into essentially panicked programs and applicants hoping to get "promises" of acceptance from each other so as not to remain unmatched ... again.

Let me reiterate - this was still better (in my humble opinion) than the aptly-named scramble. However, here are some suggestions:
1) Finding out at noon that you didn't match, being able to apply via SOAP at one, and having programs start downloading applications at 2 is a terrible timeline. I was in a state of shock for at least 24 hours... and was expected to rationally deal with the rest of my life within minutes. Solution - send out the "you matched" or "welcome to h*ll" email the Friday before, with a list of program openings available at the same time but NO other activity over the weekend. No applications. No interviews. No rash decisions. This would give applicants a chance to calm down (maybe?), put together a strategy (apply in the same specialty, a different specialty, a prelim position, etc), and revise personal statement or ask for a new letter of recommendation. Then let the craziness begin Monday morning, with more time for the inevitable system crashes to resolve.
2) Being able to only give offers for the number of spots available is rather nerve-wrecking for program directors, wondering if those few "chosen ones" will select an offer from someone else and leave an opening still to be filled. Why can't the system be adjusted and somewhat hybridized with the way the main "match" works? Option 1 is to have programs and applicants put together a rank list based on interviews conducted ... run the program ... voila. The other option is to employ the "rank list" programs currently make, which at the moment are meaningless except for the top one or more people who get an offer. Instead, when a person with more than one offer accepts, the next-on-list applicants from rejected programs will automatically get offers. While this may encourage a "wait to see if something better shows up in a bit" mentality, as long as there is a 30 min period before the close of each cycle where no new offers are made and candidates know to accept something or gamble on round 2, this shouldn't be worse than what went down this year.

My disclaimer is that for me the SOAP system worked, I'm not trying to tear it apart, just envision how it can be made for future victims. In my case I applied for a very competitive specialty. I had good board scores, clinical rotation comments, letters of evaluation, and publications. But I also had a period of probation related to transitioning from an MD/PhD program to just the MD program. However I never imagined not matching (this was both my fault and to an extent a problem of faulty advising). For "back-up" I applied to general surgery, and was both shocked and relieved to not match in that. During the SOAP process I was incredibly lucky to have a program director guide me through the process, calm my nerves, and allow me to think about how I wanted to approach the process. Since I had always also liked pathology, I spent my 30 applications on those programs. I also (quickly) modified my personal statement and was once again blessed to get a new letter of recommendation written right away. ... then nothing ... just waiting ... then the next day I was on the phone all day (and evening, as West Coast programs were still awake). I was incredibly lucky to receive offers from my top two choices, and ended up matching in one of the top programs in the country which usually NEVER has any openings. A lot of that I really have to attribute to providence, since a terrible and soul-draining experience ended up with me matching at a program where I otherwise may not have even interviewed. What I learned: mainly is that program directors is just as freaked out, and want to make sure to fill their spots. They called candidates who were acceptable, had a "preference" list of candidates they really liked, but of those probably gave an offer to who they thought would likely accept over who they thought may have been more qualified (but would likely match somewhere else). With good advising and some flexibility (willingness to accept a preliminary surgery position) all reasonably qualified US applicants should begin indentured servitude come July.
The other caveat is that I am a US senior, with my match experience limited accordingly. Unfortunately the match process overall is getting increasingly more competitive, and it takes a combination of good resume and luck for an IMG to match.

Very interesting ideas, I appreciate you taking the time to share.

I'm very intrigued to see the match stats for this year and what kind of effect the changes to this match had. Then also looking ahead to the next to see what is implemented.

I find the whole thing fascinating, it's like a fantasy football draft

aProgDirector said:

Letting students know their match status on Friday seems like an easy tweak. I agree this would give those students some additional time to decide what they want to do. Obviously, getting LOR's on the weekend will not be easy, so one could argue that this information should come out on Thursday or Wednesday.

Giving students a list of open spots before programs know is not workable. First, politically it won't fly. Second, I am certain that some student (or dean) would start contacting programs early. You're just asking for trouble. However, you could easily give applicants the regional statistics report, as was done in the scramble prior. That way, applicants would know, in general, how many spots were open in all of the fields per area of the country, and could start planning what they wanted to do.

As for the suggestion that, as soon as an offer is rejected, that the system release a new offer to the next person on the list (still in the same round), it's an interesting idea. The idea would be that, if I got 5 offers but not one from my "top" choice, I'd reject 4 of them and then wait to see if an offer from my top choice came in. Problem is that people would try to wait to the last second -- since you'd be best off waiting to be the last person to accept. I guess they could create an option where you can "final accept" a spot (i.e. it's your top choice, and you know you want it), or "prelim accept" a choice, which means you reject all the rest, but want to wait to see if more offers come in -- and then when the round ends, that choice finalizes. It would also be good to see how many spots are open at programs -- i.e. once your top choice fills, you'd know there's no point in waiting any longer. Of course, the more complicated the process is, the more likely people are going to screw it up.

Actually, now that I think about it, we could do the following for each round: Offers released at 12 noon. You then have 60 minutes to decide what you want to do. You can reject all offers (seems pretty dumb to me), you can "finalize" an offer (meaning that you are done, this is what you want), or you can "prelim accept" an offer. Regardless, at the end of 60 minutes, you can only keep one offer, Then, the system can send out more offers. Those that "prelim accepted" an offer can get more offers, and again after 60 minutes must choose to only keep a single offer. As before, the list of unfilled programs is updated each round, so you can see if your "top choice" gets filled. If we did 60 minute rounds,there could easily be 5 rounds on Wednesday from 12 to 5. At 5PM, all prelim accepts get finalized. If spots are still left, then the process restarts at 9AM the next day. The major problem I see with a system like this is the person who is completely unmatched who wants something that is advanced and prelim, but would take something categorical also. If that person gets a Cat and Advanced offer at the beginning, but no prelims, they would need to choose one of them. If they choose the Advanced, then they have to hope that a prelim offer shows up at some point in the future. But, that's no different than the current system of SOAP this year.

The second match idea has been discussed. In fact, that's what we (PD's) wanted when this whole process was discussed in the first place. The problem is that NRMP told us that, if we had a second match, they would need a full 2 weeks to make it work. That would push match day off until the beginning of April. PD's were very unhappy with that (with the major concern being enough time to get visas for incoming interns), and I expect most students wouldn't be thrilled to find out that they matched, but have to wait 2 weeks to know where. Whether NRMP could do a second match faster than this, I expect will be discussed shortly.

And it's clear that ERAS needs to find a better way to deliver SOAP applications. ERAS is moving to a web based platform, and that would fix everything -- but I expect that's still years away. Or, there has to be a way to download only basic applicant info, and then choose whom you want the full package for.

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MD forever said:

Perhaps you will discover that you was lucky to get both EM/IM, when you graduate, you will realize how smarter you are compared to only EM docs. No offense medicine is medicine. congrats young fellow

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When someone says "no offense," something offensive usually leads or follows, such as your ignorant comment.