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Clear picture of how competitive Anesthesiology is these days

Started by idahoruralDO
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idahoruralDO

idahoruralDO

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So I've been looking at anesthesiology for quite a while and done a lot of reading but as I understand it, the level of competitiveness can change a lot from year to year. I'm seeing things from 2008 at best. Even a lot of threads here are stale. Can someone with real insight give an explain how competitive residencies are at present (and through in a few examples)?

Also, I'd appreciate info on how competitive the osteopathic residencies are.


If you want to get more specific- my stats: USMLE 209, COMLEX 486. Participation in 2 research projects, 1 publication. SGA leadership (does that even matter?). If I could choose now, it'd be anesthesiology- not sure it's worth going for, though.

Thanks!
 
Friend, I suggest you do a thorough search of the forum. There is tons and tons of good information here.

There is a dearth of information on DO anesthesiology residencies on this forum. There are some threads from the past on the subject and a few users who are are familiar with these programs. I suggest sending them a PM. My opinion is that ACGME programs and ABA board certification is the gold standard.

You will not know how "competitive" things are until you apply. I applied in 2003 and it was "competitive" then also.

Good luck. Pursue anesthesiology if you love it.
 
as arch said, there's a couple lengthy DO specific discussions about anesthesia. but to sum up... you're about 25th percentile usmle and even a low 37th in the comlex. I would think matching MD with <210 would be very very difficult for a DO.

I had a friend with scores similar to yours. Applied to 20-25 programs, 2 interviews, no acceptances. Scrambled to a DO transitional year residency.
 
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I appreciate the feedback, Arch. I read and feel like i'm getting good info then realize I'm reading a post from 2007. I'll dig a little deeper. So the cold hard facts (thanks BUCCMFS1) make the picture look pretty bleak for my specific situation- now that the scores are in, is there much I can do? I had heard from an MD once that a person could do a year of IM then apply to a PGY 1 position in a residency they weren't initially competitive in but with the year of training under their belt, they get a fair shake. I'd be willing to give an extra year for anesthesia.
 
I had a friend with scores similar to yours. Applied to 20-25 programs, 2 interviews, no acceptances. Scrambled to a DO transitional year residency.[/QUOTE]

did this friend do any audition rotations?
 
idahoruralDO said:
I appreciate the feedback, Arch. I read and feel like i'm getting good info then realize I'm reading a post from 2007. I'll dig a little deeper. So the cold hard facts (thanks BUCCMFS1) make the picture look pretty bleak for my specific situation- now that the scores are in, is there much I can do? I had heard from an MD once that a person could do a year of IM then apply to a PGY 1 position in a residency they weren't initially competitive in but with the year of training under their belt, they get a fair shake. I'd be willing to give an extra year for anesthesia.
Click to expand...

applications go out in the summer/fall for the following year. you wouldn't have a year of training under your belt, more like 2 or 3 months.
 
Apply to the DO programs and kiss ass as much as possible at your many "audition" rotations. This is your best bet to obtain any anesthesiology residency.
 
Nooblet said:
applications go out in the summer/fall for the following year. you wouldn't have a year of training under your belt, more like 2 or 3 months.
Click to expand...

Isn't the idea that they give you more consideration because by the time you show up to their program you will have had a full year?
 
idahoruralDO said:
Isn't the idea that they give you more consideration because by the time you show up to their program you will have had a full year?
Click to expand...

everyone that shows up to their program will have had a full year. anesthesia starts during your PGY-2 year. Everyone has to do an internship whether medical or surgical. some programs have a built in internship, but you are at no advantage here.
 
I think you will have a fairly good shot of getting into an MD anesthesia program. You likely won't get into a top program, but in all honesty, as long as you get a spot that is all that matters. Key for you will be doing one or two away rotations where you perform very very strongly. I'm not sure what part of the country you are looking at for residency, but try to target a few middle of the road programs and just have a fantastic rotation. There are many residency positions in anesthesia that have not gone filled the last few years. When I was graduating from medical school, my home program didn't fill one of their spots and I heard that a program in my city didn't fill three of their anesthesia spots and had to scramble. Bottom line, apply broadly and be persistent. Do a few good rotations. And good luck
 
For me, the competition level has been fairly stable over the last few years. Certainly not any huge difference that would cause you to change strategies from previous years. The avg step scores have been creeping up a bit, but then so has the overall avg score for everyone. They even raised the minimum passing score again this past year, so I see that more as grade creep as the material on the exam becomes more known through web based question banks and better texts addressing the topics to be tested.
With your scores, you will need many more "safety" programs to fall back on and hope you get invites from. All you need is one program to really like you, but if you can't get the invite or the rotation, you won't get that opportunity. You won't have the cushion that the average students will have.
 
idahoruralDO said:
So I've been looking at anesthesiology for quite a while and done a lot of reading but as I understand it, the level of competitiveness can change a lot from year to year. I'm seeing things from 2008 at best. Even a lot of threads here are stale. Can someone with real insight give an explain how competitive residencies are at present (and through in a few examples)?

Also, I'd appreciate info on how competitive the osteopathic residencies are.


If you want to get more specific- my stats: USMLE 209, COMLEX 486. Participation in 2 research projects, 1 publication. SGA leadership (does that even matter?). If I could choose now, it'd be anesthesiology- not sure it's worth going for, though.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Start reading...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=710466

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=870874

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12898600#post12898600

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=864703

Are you at PNWU?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888443

My stats are very similar to yours with the addition of a leave of absence (medical) pushing me from c/o 2013 to 2014.

Depends on what school you're coming from and what region. For me it would be about 75 applications to try and get 12-15 solid interviews. With that I think you'd have upwards of 95% probability of matching.
 
Can any DO's applying in the state of Illinois the last several years comment on the level of competitiveness and success of matching here?
 
Is there anyway to get a separate forum created specifically for medical students with application questions? It seems like half of the threads created these days deal with these issues. Alot of us who haven't been in residency for a while don't have any clue as to what step scores are required, which programs are good, etc etc.
 
HollywdAnesth said:
Is there anyway to get a separate forum created specifically for medical students with application questions? It seems like half of the threads created these days deal with these issues. Alot of us who haven't been in residency for a while don't have any clue as to what step scores are required, which programs are good, etc etc.
Click to expand...

I think this is a great idea! I'm one of these students who has many questions about the application process.
 
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Our existing subforums don't get much traffic. 52 viewing the main forum now, 0 viewing the one private and three public subforums.

One of them was specifically created as a dumping ground for CRNA argument threads. The ITE Keywords subforum hasn't been busy for about 3 years, and hasn't seen any discussion in 2, and the last non-spam posts were over a year ago.

If there was a lot of demand and some reason to believe that a 'what are my chances' subforum would be used, we could entertain the idea. But I'm skeptical.


The threads are repetitive but they're seasonal. If anyone gripes at you for posting match questions, ignore them. They're appropriate for a residency forum ... just make an effort to use the search first.
 
pgg said:
Our existing subforums don't get much traffic. 52 viewing the main forum now, 0 viewing the one private and three public subforums.

One of them was specifically created as a dumping ground for CRNA argument threads. The ITE Keywords subforum hasn't been busy for about 3 years, and hasn't seen any discussion in 2, and the last non-spam posts were over a year ago.

If there was a lot of demand and some reason to believe that a 'what are my chances' subforum would be used, we could entertain the idea. But I'm skeptical.


The threads are repetitive but they're seasonal. If anyone gripes at you for posting match questions, ignore them. They're appropriate for a residency forum ... just make an effort to use the search first.
Click to expand...

I got hit a couple times by people but most threads I found on the topic were several years old, like 2008-2009 so information that was relevant then could possibly not be now.
 
I sure appreciate the info! I had heard from other med students that anesthesiology had gotten very competitive in the last few years. The feedback on this thread helped me get a better view of the field. Also, going through the latest NRMP charting outcomes, it appears the competitiveness hasn't changed much in the last few years.

In reference to match data, in the 2012 results and data PDF, table 17 shows the number of ranked applicants needed to fill each position. Can someone interpret that for me? What does a high or low number signify? Anything in relation to competitiveness? For example, pgy-1 anesthesiology is 7.5, fam med, 5.2, derm 5.1, diagnostic radiology 9.8

here's the pdf i'm referring to: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf
 
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idahoruralDO said:
.

In reference to match data, in the 2012 results and data PDF, table 17 shows the number of ranked applicants needed to fill each position. Can someone interpret that for me? What does a high or low number signify? Anything in relation to competitiveness? For example, pgy-1 anesthesiology is 7.5, fam med, 5.2, derm 5.1, diagnostic radiology 9.8
Click to expand...

That's the number of applicants that a program has to rank per position available to fill. It will vary greatly per program. Stanford/MGH doesn't have to rank as many applicants to fill compared to Eastern Nowhere State Hospital. ie. For 10 positions in anesthesia, on average, the program must rank 75 applicants to fill. (7.5x10) They probably have to interview at least 150 people. It's less useful because of program variability based on many factors. Every program knows their own average number.
 
Last edited:
idahoruralDO said:
I sure appreciate the info! I had heard from other med students that anesthesiology had gotten very competitive in the last few years. The feedback on this thread helped me get a better view of the field. Also, going through the latest NRMP charting outcomes, it appears the competitiveness hasn't changed much in the last few years.

In reference to match data, in the 2012 results and data PDF, table 17 shows the number of ranked applicants needed to fill each position. Can someone interpret that for me? What does a high or low number signify? Anything in relation to competitiveness? For example, pgy-1 anesthesiology is 7.5, fam med, 5.2, derm 5.1, diagnostic radiology 9.8

here's the pdf i'm referring to: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf
Click to expand...

I believe what you are asking about is the rank:fill ratio. As an example, if a program had 10 positions available and they went to 90 on their rank list, their number is 9.0. If they went to 20 to fill all spots, they were more competitive and their number would be 2.0. Each program gets their individual program numbers from the NRMP. Competitive programs have low numbers and less competitive programs have higher numbers. As a specialty, the numbers are available on the chart and you can see that there has been little fluctuation over the last few years as a specialty while there might be large variations in specific programs (I don't think that is publically reported).
Was that your question?
 
IlDestriero said:
That's the number of applicants that a program has to rank per position available to fill. It will vary greatly per program. Stanford/MGH doesn't have to rank as many applicants to fill compared to Eastern Nowhere State Hospital. ie. For 10 positions in anesthesia, on average, the program must to rank 75 applicants to fill. (7.5x10) They probably have to interview at least 150 people. It's less useful because of program variability based on many factors. Every program knows their own average number.
Click to expand...

You beat me by 6 minutes 🙂
 
IlDestriero said:
. For 10 positions in anesthesia, on average, the program must rank 75 applicants to fill. (7.5x10) They probably have to interview at least 150 people.
Click to expand...

To clarify, programs will generally shoot for ~10 interviews for each spot they have to fill. Different levels of competitiveness may change that number up or down. So if you have 8 spots, you interview ~80 applicants. Hopefully, you will find 70 or more "rankable" candidates out of that group. You rank these candidates and hope that your list is long enough with acceptable candidates before you hit that usual rank:fill number. Some programs don't get vary far into their list while others may be scraping off the bottom of it.

So while he says a program "must rank 75 applicants to fill," the reality is they are ranking quite a bit more to provide cushion in case they go farther down their list this year. Some programs may get more confident and rank too low a number of applicants and these are the situations where you hear about well known programs that have to go through the scramble. It happens periodically.

There was a program a few years back that forgot to turn in their list by the deadline. It was a disaster, especially for those candidates who needed to be there for family reasons. It made it impossible for them to be there because they matched with another program further down their list. That was the worst match screw up I have ever heard about. They had to scramble for their entire class.
 
idahoruralDO said:
So I've been looking at anesthesiology for quite a while and done a lot of reading but as I understand it, the level of competitiveness can change a lot from year to year. I'm seeing things from 2008 at best. Even a lot of threads here are stale. Can someone with real insight give an explain how competitive residencies are at present (and through in a few examples)?

Also, I'd appreciate info on how competitive the osteopathic residencies are.


If you want to get more specific- my stats: USMLE 209, COMLEX 486. Participation in 2 research projects, 1 publication. SGA leadership (does that even matter?). If I could choose now, it'd be anesthesiology- not sure it's worth going for, though.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well my friend you are in a much better position than me. You made the 200 cutoff for USMLE screen some programs use. But you didn't make the 500 cutoff for DO programs.

Pretty much exactly opposite for me....

Makes me wonder if a good step II can make up for it 😕

I mean basically step II of 230 would be reasonable as a goal. Step I just slaughtered me on biochem, which doesn't really exist on step II. Had I known I would score <200 I wouldn't have taken it; but a practice exam I took one week prior was 219. I also took a LOA for a year so my biochem/neuro/anatomy was a bit rusty.

Previous DO's do you think it's worth my time to try to arrange an anesthesia rotation during my third year to gain more exposure to the specialty at places I would like to match? Say 3 rotations: 1 Home city, 1 AZ (HS and college here), 1 Utah (born/raised).

Should I bother applying for away rotations? Should I be focusing on trying to get a good TY and prep for applying to advanced positions?
 
TeamZissou said:
Well my friend you are in a much better position than me. You made the 200 cutoff for USMLE screen some programs use. But you didn't make the 500 cutoff for DO programs.

Pretty much exactly opposite for me....

Makes me wonder if a good step II can make up for it 😕

I mean basically step II of 230 would be reasonable as a goal. Step I just slaughtered me on biochem, which doesn't really exist on step II. Had I known I would score <200 I wouldn't have taken it; but a practice exam I took one week prior was 219. I also took a LOA for a year so my biochem/neuro/anatomy was a bit rusty.

Previous DO's do you think it's worth my time to try to arrange an anesthesia rotation during my third year to gain more exposure to the specialty at places I would like to match? Say 3 rotations: 1 Home city, 1 AZ (HS and college here), 1 Utah (born/raised).

Should I bother applying for away rotations? Should I be focusing on trying to get a good TY and prep for applying to advanced positions?
Click to expand...

Just a heads up but Utah will be a tough program to break into, so I'm not sure it will be worth it. A) Not very DO friendly, B) Large number of U med students go into anesthesia and tend to want to stay in UT (like this last match cycle), C) I'd say a mid to upper tier program.

If you don't match into anesthesia, reputable prelim medicine or prelim surgery would be the best route to go. Advanced programs prefer that over TYs.
 
So outside of the obvious ivy's what programs are considered top tier? I don't want to waste money on a program I likely have little shot of getting into and hear that it is easier to name the uber competetive programs than the middle of the road ones. Thanks!
 
hawthorne said:
So outside of the obvious ivy's what programs are considered top tier? I don't want to waste money on a program I likely have little shot of getting into and hear that it is easier to name the uber competetive programs than the middle of the road ones. Thanks!
Click to expand...

This thread is old as dirt but I doubt much has changed. Try a search, this has been discussed multiple times on this forum.
 
Agree with all of this. There simply isn't the demand for a sub forum and chances are it would wither and die. Other forums have used a WAMC megathread and that is possible here as well.

pgg said:
Our existing subforums don't get much traffic. 52 viewing the main forum now, 0 viewing the one private and three public subforums.

One of them was specifically created as a dumping ground for CRNA argument threads. The ITE Keywords subforum hasn't been busy for about 3 years, and hasn't seen any discussion in 2, and the last non-spam posts were over a year ago.

If there was a lot of demand and some reason to believe that a 'what are my chances' subforum would be used, we could entertain the idea. But I'm skeptical.


The threads are repetitive but they're seasonal. If anyone gripes at you for posting match questions, ignore them. They're appropriate for a residency forum ... just make an effort to use the search first.
Click to expand...
 
gasblaster said:
Just a heads up but Utah will be a tough program to break into, so I'm not sure it will be worth it. A) Not very DO friendly, B) Large number of U med students go into anesthesia and tend to want to stay in UT (like this last match cycle), C) I'd say a mid to upper tier program.

If you don't match into anesthesia, reputable prelim medicine or prelim surgery would be the best route to go. Advanced programs prefer that over TYs.
Click to expand...

Well $hit, I was hoping it might be a possibility since I have ties to slc and I actually make their step I cutoff according to their website. What about UW or Virginia Mason? My family lives in Seattle so that's another place I'd love to end up. Even Oregon would be great. Any info on those?

Any of them known for taking their prelims into their advanced positions?
 
TeamZissou said:
Well $hit, I was hoping it might be a possibility since I have ties to slc and I actually make their step I cutoff according to their website. What about UW or Virginia Mason? My family lives in Seattle so that's another place I'd love to end up. Even Oregon would be great. Any info on those?

Any of them known for taking their prelims into their advanced positions?
Click to expand...

I agree with gas blaster. A few grads from my school have gone to UW. Oregon will be similar to Utah.

If you must be out west, AZ and NM are your best shot if you can smoke step 2 and have your score back before eras is due. You need to be studying throughout 3rd year, nail UW as many times as you can and consider DIT. Doing an audition can help, but you may want to do a few DO auditions as a back up. I've seen sub 500 comlex students match at AOA programs, just work hard, know your role and kiss a lot of booty.
 
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TeamZissou said:
Well $hit, I was hoping it might be a possibility since I have ties to slc and I actually make their step I cutoff according to their website. What about UW or Virginia Mason? My family lives in Seattle so that's another place I'd love to end up. Even Oregon would be great. Any info on those?

Any of them known for taking their prelims into their advanced positions?
Click to expand...

OHSU is very similar to Utah. Not DO friendly. Resident class size on the smaller side (low teens). Upper tier program.

UW actually has a few DO's (1-2/yr) and larger resident class size (mid 20s). But it is also still an upper tier program with an awesome location.

If you had to choose of the 3, UW would be the most feasible although would still be an uphill battle.

I don't know much about VM.
 
gasblaster said:
OHSU is very similar to Utah. Not DO friendly. Resident class size on the smaller side (low teens). Upper tier program.

UW actually has a few DO's (1-2/yr) and larger resident class size (mid 20s). But it is also still an upper tier program with an awesome location.

If you had to choose of the 3, UW would be the most feasible although would still be an uphill battle.

I don't know much about VM.
Click to expand...

Righto, I suppose I'll send some pretty emails when the time comes. Thanks for the info👍
 
Arch Guillotti said:
This thread is old as dirt but I doubt much has changed. Try a search, this has been discussed multiple times on this forum.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much! That was helpful and interesting.....for example I never realized that U of M was considered an "elite" program. I am interested in it because I have lived in MI my whole life but with what I have researched so far that was the first time I had seen that pointed out like that. So does that mean its a real competitive program?
 
hawthorne said:
Thank you so much! That was helpful and interesting.....for example I never realized that U of M was considered an "elite" program. I am interested in it because I have lived in MI my whole life but with what I have researched so far that was the first time I had seen that pointed out like that. So does that mean its a real competitive program?
Click to expand...

Elite generally means competitive, yes.
 
TeamZissou said:
Well my friend you are in a much better position than me. You made the 200 cutoff for USMLE screen some programs use. But you didn't make the 500 cutoff for DO programs.

Pretty much exactly opposite for me....

Makes me wonder if a good step II can make up for it 😕

I mean basically step II of 230 would be reasonable as a goal. Step I just slaughtered me on biochem, which doesn't really exist on step II. Had I known I would score <200 I wouldn't have taken it; but a practice exam I took one week prior was 219. I also took a LOA for a year so my biochem/neuro/anatomy was a bit rusty.

Previous DO's do you think it's worth my time to try to arrange an anesthesia rotation during my third year to gain more exposure to the specialty at places I would like to match? Say 3 rotations: 1 Home city, 1 AZ (HS and college here), 1 Utah (born/raised).

Should I bother applying for away rotations? Should I be focusing on trying to get a good TY and prep for applying to advanced positions?
Click to expand...

LOA and a bad USMLE you aren't going to get in any allopathic residency especially not Utah, Virgina Mason, or UW. Just concentrate on the DO programs. DO programs really don't have a Comlex cut off. I know a guy with a failure in one. Its all about who you know and who you blow with those programs.
 
TeamZissou said:
Well my friend you are in a much better position than me. You made the 200 cutoff for USMLE screen some programs use. But you didn't make the 500 cutoff for DO programs.

Pretty much exactly opposite for me....

Makes me wonder if a good step II can make up for it 😕

I mean basically step II of 230 would be reasonable as a goal. Step I just slaughtered me on biochem, which doesn't really exist on step II. Had I known I would score <200 I wouldn't have taken it; but a practice exam I took one week prior was 219. I also took a LOA for a year so my biochem/neuro/anatomy was a bit rusty.

Previous DO's do you think it's worth my time to try to arrange an anesthesia rotation during my third year to gain more exposure to the specialty at places I would like to match? Say 3 rotations: 1 Home city, 1 AZ (HS and college here), 1 Utah (born/raised).

Should I bother applying for away rotations? Should I be focusing on trying to get a good TY and prep for applying to advanced positions?
Click to expand...

Also, pretty sure 230 on Step 2 is below average at this point. A "good" score on Step 2 is more like 250-260.
 
WholeLottaGame7 said:
Also, pretty sure 230 on Step 2 is below average at this point. A "good" score on Step 2 is more like 250-260.
Click to expand...

Wow avg for step II last year was 235...

What about the TY or prelim path and getting step III done that year? Would a poor step one be overlooked with avg step II and III?

If it makes a difference LOA was medical.
 
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