A 3.3 From Harvard/Yale/Princeton worth more than a 4.0 from a state school?

idkoop · May 23, 2005

At least it certainly seems that way from mdapplicants.com and from the stats put up by those undergrad premed offices. Consider also that on mdapplicants.com, a lot of the 3.3's from HYP have 33+ MCATs, while there's a ton of 4.0's from state schools, etc with sub-29s. Discuss?

evidence: http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/HPAwebNEW/currstrat.htm

Dookter · May 23, 2005

I would say that a 3.3 from an Ivy school with >30 MCAT is def. better than a 4.0 from a state school paired with a <29 MCAT. However, a 4.0 from a state school and >30 MCAT is just fine. I would much rather have that than a 3.3 from an Ivy school paired with <29 MCAT [after all, there does seem to be a little grade inflation, even at Ivy schools].

Mixtli · May 23, 2005

I wouldn't trust a 3.3 from Harvard. Essentially that person is a ****** to get a 3.3 considering 70% of the class gets an A- or A due to grade inflation. In state schools 70% of students do not get an A or A-. A friend of mine took Calc I at Harvard over the summer. He got an average of 85 on the exams and still got an A, and this was a guy who admitted he sucked ass in math and got a B in a physics summer program at Johns Hopkins.

The thing is, your undergrad and your race carries more weight than GPA.

Psycho Doctor · May 23, 2005

Dr.Giggles said:
I wouldn't trust a 3.3 from Harvard. Essentially that person is a ****** to get a 3.3 considering 70% of the class gets an A- or A due to grade inflation. In state schools 70% of students do not get an A or A-. A friend of mine took Calc I at Harvard over the summer. He got an average of 85 on the exams and still got an A, and this was a guy who admitted he sucked ass in math and got a B in a physics summer program at Johns Hopkins.

The thing is, your undergrad and your race carries more weight than GPA.

Yea, i was going to say the same thing. A 3.3 at a state school is probably better than a 3.3 at Harvard, Princeton or Yale b/c everyone knows there is grade inflation at those 3 schools.

SanDiegoSOD · May 23, 2005

Psycho Doctor said:
Yea, i was going to say the same thing. A 3.3 at a state school is probably better than a 3.3 at Harvard, Princeton or Yale b/c everyone knows there is grade inflation at those 3 schools.

You've got to be kidding me. I can't tell if you're serious right now, or If you're joking, but everyone knows that a degree from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale is better than just about any other school with a similar GPA. The only state schools that come close are UC Berkeley and UMich, with UCLA and UVA a bit behind.

Psycho Doctor · May 23, 2005

SanDiegoSOD said:
You've got to be kidding me. I can't tell if you're serious right now, or If you're joking, but everyone knows that a degree from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale is better than just about any other school with a similar GPA. The only state schools that come close are UC Berkeley and UMich, and possibly UCLA and UVA. That's it.

it was a joke but seriously there is grade inflation there, whereas there is not at state schools...that is not to say the competition at these schools aren't tougher.

idkoop · May 23, 2005

Psycho Doctor said:
Yea, i was going to say the same thing. A 3.3 at a state school is probably better than a 3.3 at Harvard, Princeton or Yale b/c everyone knows there is grade inflation at those 3 schools.

and state schools that let people graduate with near 4.0s but sub 30 MCATs aren't grade inflated?

huduvudu · May 23, 2005

These types of questions seriously irritate me. Are you planning to change undergrads are do better/worse in your classes? Or are you just trying to subjectively place yourself in the egotistical food chain? You earned what you earned you went where you went. End of story. Write the PS and apply to the schools that interest you, regardless of what your 'status' is.

LadyBulldog · May 23, 2005

not all of our classes have grade inflation

....and there is some line of reasoning. Like my biochem course--over half the students were graduate students, the teachers were all top-notch big-shot professors who had no qualms about putting the hardest material/smallest detail on the exam, and many of my peers who were undergrads were all geniuses who knew their stuff and deserved the A........ not trying to inflame anyone here, just trying to defend myself since i for one don't have a 4.0 at yale

dajimmers · May 23, 2005

The major and courses taken I think has a greater influence on GPA than which school it was taken at. For instance, at my school (Michigan State), there are several bio-related "premed" degrees (I know many premeds are English majors and such, but I'm ignoring them at the moment). For pretty much anyone, 4.0'ing Biochemistry is going to be harder than Human Biology, as Biochem requires harder courses. In my opinion, at least.

And no, I am neither of those. I'm Microbiology and Physiology, happily in the middle.

Anyways, this is why MCAT is so important. It helps show what you really know, regardless of grade inflation, course load, having mono for a semester, etc.

kdwuma · May 23, 2005

this point has been debated over and over, but let me go ahead and beat the dead horse one more time. a 3.3 sucks no matter where you get it from unless you have special circumstances, keep in mind some schools have a minimum gpa before you app sees daylight, so it will not matter much if you are an ivy and your gpa is below the mendoza line now would it???. i know some of you swear you have heard it from adcoms that certain schools are given more respect but to what extent is the million dollar question, i will submit that this ivy this ivy that does not carry as much wieght as some of the people that go to these schools hope it does and that is why i chuckle when i see the 30+ ivy 3.6 who get rejected all over the place. it's all about the interview, just look at the sheer number of people that are interviewed at each school and see how many are accepted. remember that every one who gets an interview has the same chance of getting in.....well till they show up and start ivying this and ivying that....

crazy_cavalier · May 23, 2005

Dr.Giggles said:
I wouldn't trust a 3.3 from Harvard. Essentially that person is a ****** to get a 3.3 considering 70% of the class gets an A- or A due to grade inflation. In state schools 70% of students do not get an A or A-. A friend of mine took Calc I at Harvard over the summer. He got an average of 85 on the exams and still got an A, and this was a guy who admitted he sucked ass in math and got a B in a physics summer program at Johns Hopkins.

The thing is, your undergrad and your race carries more weight than GPA.

amen, brotha!

:laugh:

@ the "essentially that person is a ..." wow, he actually got an A with 85 in calc I??? I had like 94 and I barely pulled off an A in calc II (never took calc I, placed out of it.)

lfesiam · May 23, 2005

there is something call the bell curve at penn, where an 80 can be a C, no inflation here, you are graded on a curve... sux.

i know some adcoms actually add points to your gpa if you graduate from an ivy. i.e. a 3.3 at an ivy may be comparable to a 3.6 from hicksville college. have you guys heard of this practice???

kdwuma · May 23, 2005

lfesiam said:
there is something call the bell curve at penn, where an 80 can be a C, no inflation here, you are graded on a curve... sux.

i know some adcoms actually add points to your gpa if you graduate from an ivy. i.e. a 3.3 at an ivy may be comparable to a 3.6 from hicksville college. have you guys heard of this practice???

urban legend my friend

Peterock · May 23, 2005

crazy_cavalier said:
amen, brotha!

@ the "essentially that person is a ..." wow, he actually got an A with 85 in calc I??? I had like 94 and I barely pulled off an A in calc II (never took calc I, placed out of it.)

Yeah, I think most people who are from middle class backgrounds who scored less than a 1300 on their SAT's and get less than a 28 on their MCAT are essentially ******ed as well. Oh wait, thats pretty much everyone at state schools.

Why is it that you expect students who have outachieved you to not respond to such insanely stupid comments? Oh thats right, b/c you're busy talking **** on the internet while they're working.

chaeymaey · May 24, 2005

I know a guy from Dallas who got had a 3.3 GPA from Penn and 30 MCAT. He got no interview at UT Southwestern and goes to Texas A&M med now. He was totally not expecting that.

Indryd · May 24, 2005

Peterock said:
Yeah, I think most people who are from middle class backgrounds who scored less than a 1300 on their SAT's and get less than a 28 on their MCAT are essentially ******ed as well.

Hey, I agree with that! Although I would re-word it to say "necessarily ******ed." Isn't that closer to the truth?

Afterall, don't you all know that all state schools are made up of people who desperately tried to get into an Ivy but were too stupid to make the cut? Yeah, it's true.

Here's some research to back it up... Research to back it up!

t00dles!

45408 · May 24, 2005

Peterock said:
Yeah, I think most people who are from middle class backgrounds who scored less than a 1300 on their SAT's and get less than a 28 on their MCAT are essentially ******ed as well. Oh wait, thats pretty much everyone at state schools.

I was waiting to see how long this thread could remain civil, but you obviously couldn't wait to inject your asinine drivel into this thread.

Peterock said:
Why is it that you expect students who have outachieved you to not respond to such insanely stupid comments? Oh thats right, b/c you're busy talking **** on the internet while they're working.

Classic.

Who's busy talking smack now? Oh, wait, Peterock is railing into state schools again. It's true, I attempted desperately to get into every last Ivy out there, only to be rejected because I'm essentially ******ed.

Psst, we're jealous because we're tired of 12-hours a day of Playstation (those of us at state schools have lots of free time since we don't have homework). Mooching off our parents like the middle-class brats we are is a rough life.

crazy_cavalier · May 24, 2005

Peterock said:
Yeah, I think most people who are from middle class backgrounds who scored less than a 1300 on their SAT's and get less than a 28 on their MCAT are essentially ******ed as well. Oh wait, thats pretty much everyone at state schools.

Why is it that you expect students who have outachieved you to not respond to such insanely stupid comments? Oh thats right, b/c you're busy talking **** on the internet while they're working.

To Peterock: The only thing I want to say is that you are a beautiful person and I am sure God loves you.

crazy_cavalier · May 24, 2005

TheProwler said:
I was waiting to see how long this thread could remain civil, but you obviously couldn't wait to inject your asinine drivel into this thread.

Classic. Who's busy talking smack now? Oh, wait, Peterock is railing into state schools again. It's true, I attempted desperately to get into every last Ivy out there, only to be rejected because I'm essentially ******ed.

Prowler, I love you. In a strictly Platonic sense.

ramblinwreckie · May 24, 2005

Peterock said:
Yeah, I think most people who are from middle class backgrounds who scored less than a 1300 on their SAT's and get less than a 28 on their MCAT are essentially ******ed as well. Oh wait, thats pretty much everyone at state schools.

Why is it that you expect students who have outachieved you to not respond to such insanely stupid comments? Oh thats right, b/c you're busy talking **** on the internet while they're working.

yeah, we're all ******ed. you're cool, man.

UCDavisdude · May 24, 2005

Psycho Doctor said:
Yea, i was going to say the same thing. A 3.3 at a state school is probably better than a 3.3 at Harvard, Princeton or Yale b/c everyone knows there is grade inflation at those 3 schools.

thats just dumb, grade inflation exists at ivy schools because its not fair for students to compete with other students at the ivy league school and get an lower grade than a student from a state school who probably does not know as much, but gets an a b/c he or she is competing with people of lower intelligence. Grade inflation is everywhere, ive attended ucla and uc davis and normally, ill have about 60-70 percent in my classes, and that would be enough for an A. my second quarter ochem courses cut off for an A was 55%. All UC's are like this (even though UC's TEND TO HAVE A GOOD REP)

Crete · May 24, 2005

SanDiegoSOD said:
You've got to be kidding me. I can't tell if you're serious right now, or If you're joking, but everyone knows that a degree from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale is better than just about any other school with a similar GPA. The only state schools that come close are UC Berkeley and UMich, with UCLA and UVA a bit behind.

Berkeley's undergrad education has gone to crap as of late. From advising to class size to research, the list goes on and on, the quality has been a factor in UCLA becoming more selective. Berkeley has the name because of its history (well deserved) and graduate schools.

45408 · May 24, 2005

UCDavisdude said:
thats just dumb, grade inflation exists at ivy schools because its not fair for students to compete with other students at the ivy league school and get an lower grade than a student from a state school who probably does not know as much, but gets an a b/c he or she is competing with people of lower intelligence. Grade inflation is everywhere, ive attended ucla and uc davis and normally, ill have about 60-70 percent in my classes, and that would be enough for an A. my second quarter ochem courses cut off for an A was 55%. All UC's are like this (even though UC's TEND TO HAVE A GOOD REP)

So if the average is above a 75%, don't curve the course. Most profs I know won't curve a course downwards, so if everyone's doing well, they won't punish everyone. Getting a 55% and getting an A just sounds dumb. If everyone's so smart, why is the bar set so low?

UCDavisdude · May 24, 2005

TheProwler said:
So if the average is above a 75%, don't curve the course. Most profs I know won't curve a course downwards, so if everyone's doing well, they won't punish everyone. Getting a 55% and getting an A just sounds dumb. If everyone's so smart, why is the bar set so low?

everyones not so smart, thats the point i was trying to make. grade inflation occurs in ivy league b/c its unfair to those students who are competing with such great students for a's. im sure what they are afraid of is thier students, getting lower grades than us state school kids because we state school kids are competing with dumber students. 55 % is low, extremely low, but the average was a 40%. there were a few of us of course who had 70"s and 80"s, but very few.

45408 · May 24, 2005

UCDavisdude said:
everyones not so smart, thats the point i was trying to make. grade inflation occurs in ivy league b/c its unfair to those students who are competing with such great students for a's. im sure what they are afraid of is thier students, getting lower grades than us state school kids because we state school kids are competing with dumber students. 55 % is low, extremely low, but the average was a 40%. there were a few of us of course who had 70"s and 80"s, but very few.

And that's my point - why would the professor make the exam much harder just because everyone was smarter? That's what I think is dumb. If everyone is proficient in o-chem, then they should get a grade in accordance with that.

UCDavisdude · May 24, 2005

TheProwler said:
And that's my point - why would the professor make the exam much harder just because everyone was smarter? That's what I think is dumb. If everyone is proficient in o-chem, then they should get a grade in accordance with that.

yeah thats true, but it happens. i guess professors can do it to weed out the truly good students from the others, this way they can choose which students can help in research, etc..

Larsitron · May 24, 2005

Christ on a bike. You know what? Here's my two cents from a state university: my university couldn't care less if it passed people or not. If you meet its standards, fine. If you don't, who cares? My state has three universities and it knows that the vast majority of its high school students are going to go there because they don't have any other choice for low prices on education. The idea that state schools have gone soft is absurd. There's no one looking out for individual students nor is the curriculum set up to necessarily help people who don't work hard. Basically, its fend for yourself and prove to the school that you can hack it. So before the Ivy League crowd does what they did during interview season (which is to get down on the state school system) maybe they should actually go to a state school and see what its like. Granted, its foolish to run around saying that one system is harder than the other speaking only in generalizations, but I'm tired of people looking at the name of my university and automatically assuming that I just showed up and filled out some forms to get my degree.

ChyLn · May 24, 2005

TheProwler said:
And that's my point - why would the professor make the exam much harder just because everyone was smarter? That's what I think is dumb. If everyone is proficient in o-chem, then they should get a grade in accordance with that.

It's because the need for differentiation still exists. Besides, what exactly is "proficiency"? I'm sure proficiency at Orgo differs greatly from class to class, to speak nothing of differences between schools. Professors make the tests harder to give credit to the harder working or smarter people, even from a field of people who are already hard working and smart.

DrBowtie · May 24, 2005

Larsitron said:
Christ on a bike. You know what? Here's my two cents from a state university: my university couldn't care less if it passed people or not. If you meet its standards, fine. If you don't, who cares? My state has three universities and it knows that the vast majority of its high school students are going to go there because they don't have any other choice for low prices on education. The idea that state schools have gone soft is absurd. There's no one looking out for individual students nor is the curriculum set up to necessarily help people who don't work hard. Basically, its fend for yourself and prove to the school that you can hack it. So before the Ivy League crowd does what they did during interview season (which is to get down on the state school system) maybe they should actually go to a state school and see what its like. Granted, its foolish to run around saying that one system is harder than the other speaking only in generalizations, but I'm tired of people looking at the name of my university and automatically assuming that I just showed up and filled out some forms to get my degree.

Very True. Nobody checks up on you and you must be proactive about things. You have to initiate opportunities. A Big University is like a corporation, they don't care about customers, just their wallets.

drslc134 · May 24, 2005

UCDavisdude said:
yeah thats true, but it happens. i guess professors can do it to weed out the truly good students from the others, this way they can choose which students can help in research, etc..

perhaps the phrased "weed out" is not the correct one. Instead, I believe that professors want to be able to separate the best of students from the good students at these schools. Though my school hasn't been mentioned, I believe that the grading system here is fair (and is probably a cross between awarding grades for knowledge attained and a normalized curve) and most certainly do not have anywhere near a 4.0 here at Stanford.

ChyLn · May 24, 2005

And since Ive already started... just liked to say that I do thnk that given comparable gpa's between an ivy and state school, that the ivy will be looked upon more favorably. I know there's all this talk about grade inflation at the ivies, but at least at mine, science classes are definitely not cake.

UCDavisdude · May 24, 2005

drslc134 said:
perhaps the phrased "weed out" is not the correct one. Instead, I believe that professors want to be able to separate the best of students from the good students at these schools. Though my school hasn't been mentioned, I believe that the grading system here is fair (and is probably a cross between awarding grades for knowledge attained and a normalized curve) and most certainly do not have anywhere near a 4.0 here at Stanford.

well, thats basically what i meant

Crete · May 24, 2005

Larsitron said:
Christ on a bike. You know what? Here's my two cents from a state university: my university couldn't care less if it passed people or not. If you meet its standards, fine. If you don't, who cares? My state has three universities and it knows that the vast majority of its high school students are going to go there because they don't have any other choice for low prices on education. The idea that state schools have gone soft is absurd. There's no one looking out for individual students nor is the curriculum set up to necessarily help people who don't work hard. Basically, its fend for yourself and prove to the school that you can hack it. So before the Ivy League crowd does what they did during interview season (which is to get down on the state school system) maybe they should actually go to a state school and see what its like. Granted, its foolish to run around saying that one system is harder than the other speaking only in generalizations, but I'm tired of people looking at the name of my university and automatically assuming that I just showed up and filled out some forms to get my degree.

And that's the difference between private and state schools. It's not competing with "smarter" people (I know the UCs are an exception, but check out the stats of people at Berkeley and LA; my Genetics class had 94% as a cutoff for an A- in one of the classes, and that was CURVED DOWN to keep the people with an A at 5% [A- 9%]. In a class of almost 400, do the math), but state schools couldn't care less who passes and who doesn't. Harvard, on the other hand, will have parents dishing out 200k a year plus donors on their ass if their kids get lower than a "B." A class normalized to a B is an absolute joke, I don't care who is competing with whom. That realization is why med schools have pass/no pass, not "let's give everyone an A or a B so they don't get mad."

EDIT: How come Christ can't ride on a bike?

ChyLn · May 24, 2005

Crete said:
A class normalized to a B is an absolute joke, I don't care who is competing with whom.

I don't quite agree with that though, I'm pretty sure many students at Harvard and similar calibre schools who are making B's in their science classes could EASILY make A's at most state schools... is it fair that they then make a B just because they were admitted to the Ivy? The "average" student at an ivy is differnet from the average at a state school.

UCDavisdude · May 24, 2005

ChyLn said:
I don't quite agree with that though, I'm pretty sure many students at Harvard and similar calibre schools who are making B's in their science classes could EASILY make A's at most state schools... is it fair that they then make a B just because they were admitted to the Ivy? The "average" student at an ivy is differnet from the average at a state school.

i agree 100 %, and i have attended both ucla and uc davis.

DrBowtie · May 24, 2005

ChyLn said:
I don't quite agree with that though, I'm pretty sure many students at Harvard and similar calibre schools who are making B's in their science classes could EASILY make A's at most state schools... is it fair that they then make a B just because they were admitted to the Ivy? The "average" student at an ivy is differnet from the average at a state school.

People choose to go to Ivy's. If that person wanted to get straight A's they could have gone to a lesser school. You should know that going to a place where there are more people with higher stats, the competition is going to be stiffer and accept it.

Changaroo · May 24, 2005

Princetonians no longer benefit from grade inflation, although the vast majority of students there are highly intelligent/motivated, and esteemed professors expect a lot from their students:
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/04/27/news/10436.shtml

I'm not asserting that students or faculty at state schools are any less talented - there are many different reasons why an individual might choose to attend his/her state school.

Unfortunately, nobody ever said this process was 100% fair, and it does little good to continually worry about "how everyone else is doing" or "what advantages others might have".

You do the best you can given your own situation, and then be content =)

crazy_cavalier · May 24, 2005

UCDavisdude said:
everyones not so smart, thats the point i was trying to make. grade inflation occurs in ivy league b/c its unfair to those students who are competing with such great students for a's. im sure what they are afraid of is thier students, getting lower grades than us state school kids because we state school kids are competing with dumber students. 55 % is low, extremely low, but the average was a 40%. there were a few of us of course who had 70"s and 80"s, but very few.

Basically, let me summarize your argument:
1.) Everyone at Ivy League schools is smart / talented
2.) Competition among such brilliant minds should not render low grades, since your performance is still good and simply looks bad in comparisan to those geniuses around you
-------
therefore, everyone at Ivies still deserve A's, and should not be penalized on a bell curve and get a B for 90 quality work, if the class average is 94.

ALRIGHT. Now, the major problem here is your first premise. You think everyone at Ivy leagues is so smart? Because clearly, getting into an Ivy school has everything to do with intelligence and nothing to do with heritage. PUHLEASE. Legacy == acceptance into Ivies. Period. Trust me. If your granddaddy and your daddy got in, you could be dumb as a brick and still have a fighting shot at getting in. Because legacies means your alumni will donate $$$$.

Anyway, fortunately the MCAT serves to level the playing field and there is no more need for discussion on this matter. If you have a high GPA from a school notorious for grade inflation, and your MCAT is low, then I would be inclined to say the GPA may be over-inflated...

(edit: unfortunately, a lot of professors at the Ivies feel the same way you do, and they think everyone in their class is a genius. In the classes with more subjective grading, this is really what perpetuates the grade inflation. not only that, but there is pressure from the parents that their spoiled kids aren't getting A's and here they are paying $35k per year.)

Penelope1 · May 24, 2005

crazy_cavalier said:
Anyway, fortunately the MCAT serves to level the playing field and there is no more need for discussion on this matter. If you have a high GPA from a school notorious for grade inflation, and your MCAT is low, then I would be inclined to say the GPA may be over-inflated...

I agree that the MCAT is a great equalizer, so it's interesting to consider that the average MCAT score for Harvard grads is above a 35.

crazy_cavalier · May 24, 2005

ChyLn said:
I don't quite agree with that though, I'm pretty sure many students at Harvard and similar calibre schools who are making B's in their science classes could EASILY make A's at most state schools... is it fair that they then make a B just because they were admitted to the Ivy? The "average" student at an ivy is differnet from the average at a state school.

Yes, it is fair, if that were the case (and it SHOULD be the case). I will tell you why. The way things currently are, saying you have a B from Harvard already carries extra weight from the name of the school itself. Just look at how you feel on this matter: B from Harvard = A from a state school. Now, if Harvard inflates its grade from B to A, you have to also drop the added weight of the name of the school. And that will never happen.

Don't you see that the grade inflation does not really serve to make things more fair or equal, because the school's reputation already serves to do that!

crazy_cavalier · May 24, 2005

Penelope1 said:
I agree that the MCAT is a great equalizer, so it's interesting to consider that the average MCAT score for Harvard grads is above a 35.

First, I would like to see a source for this statistic

freaker · May 24, 2005

kdwuma said:
urban legend my friend

Law schools used to do this. Boalt had a scale if you want to look it up. Ivies did get a boost to their GPAs.

To answer the original question, I doubt a 3.3 from an Ivy matches a 4.0 at a state school. If you're talking 3.65 v. 4.0, maybe. Still, a 4.0 coming from any school is a major accomplishment.

Loco Loki · May 24, 2005

crazy_cavalier said:
First, I would like to see a source for this statistic

Asking for stats? On an internet forum? Are you daft man?! Don't you know that they all refrence the "pull it out of my ass" handbook. You have one too, right? Let me consult mine. Ah, here it is!

According to this, graduates from Chico State score an average of 38 on the MCAT, with 10% getting a 43 or above. Also, they have bigger penises.

See how stupid it sounds to cite stuff without any sort of grounding to it? Bah, they will never learn. Be prepared for more random stats, ad infinum.

idkoop · May 24, 2005

Loco Loki said:
Asking for stats? On an internet forum? Are you daft man?! Don't you know that they all refrence the "pull it out of my ass" handbook. You have one too, right? Let me consult mine. Ah, here it is!

According to this, graduates from Chico State score an average of 38 on the MCAT, with 10% getting a 43 or above. Also, they have bigger penises.

See how stupid it sounds to cite stuff without any sort of grounding to it? Bah, they will never learn. Be prepared for more random stats, ad infinum.

give me a f'ikn break. your average toilet state school, with an MCAT average that is sub < 30 (and that's supposedly only the "top" students who make it out of the "weeding out" premed classes that made it to the MCAT stage) is going to be a joke for Ivy undergrads who are competing with classmates that score 33, 34 MCAT averages. Some idiot here said something about legacies being admits to Ivy schools. meanwhile, your toilet state admits football recruits with 900 SATs. and the legacy admits to harvard don't seem to drag its SAT average below, what, the 1550, 1560, that it is? at harvard, the 75% percentile SAT is a frickin' 1590 (from usnews rankings). Do you f'in have a grasp of statistics - that means the top 25% of your class has a 1590 or 1600. If you put that same proportion in an orgo class, that means 25% of the students in your f'in orgo class either had a 1590 or 1600. i doubt there's more than a couple of kids with a 1500+ in an orgo class at XYZ toilet state school undergrad.

honestly, school admission should be entirely based on the MCAT. after meeting a certain GPA cutoff, say 3.0, the GPA should be minimized as a consideration, with obvious weight added for top undergrad schools. Then weigh certain portions (ie verbal reasoning) very heavily, that way you're selecting for cognitive ability/intelligence/science skills as compared to a group across the country. Wait, that's how almost every Asian and some European countries do it! Use national examinations! this way its fair to both people who went to ivies and faced the stiffer competition, as well as the truly intelligent kids who had to go to state schools because their hs sucked ass or they didn't have their **** together in hs.

and face it, the top med schools favor ivy and other good privates/publics. columbia p&s/yale med/hms/duke are filled with ivy undergrads because a) the adcom probably went to an elite undergrad b) is frankly a little bored of seeing applicants from Chico state with 3.8's but 26 MCATs.

PineappleGirl · May 24, 2005

Crete said:
Harvard, on the other hand, will have parents dishing out 200k a year plus donors on their ass if their kids get lower than a "B."

This is SO true, and not just at Harvard. Legacies=$$$$$$=As.

sunnyjohn · May 24, 2005

45408 · May 24, 2005

idkoop said:
honestly, school admission should be entirely based on the MCAT. after meeting a certain GPA cutoff, say 3.0, the GPA should be minimized as a consideration, with obvious weight added for top undergrad schools. Then weigh certain portions (ie verbal reasoning) very heavily, that way you're selecting for cognitive ability/intelligence/science skills as compared to a group across the country. Wait, that's how almost every Asian and some European countries do it! Use national examinations! this way its fair to both people who went to ivies and faced the stiffer competition, as well as the truly intelligent kids who had to go to state schools because their hs sucked ass or they didn't have their **** together in hs.

Why would you make the MCAT the entire admissions criteria and then add weight for a top school?

GPA should still be considered so you don't get any brilliant slackers in med school who never learned how to study for any period of time.

sandg · May 24, 2005

Larsitron said:
Christ on a bike. You know what? Here's my two cents from a state university: my university couldn't care less if it passed people or not. If you meet its standards, fine. If you don't, who cares? My state has three universities and it knows that the vast majority of its high school students are going to go there because they don't have any other choice for low prices on education. The idea that state schools have gone soft is absurd. There's no one looking out for individual students nor is the curriculum set up to necessarily help people who don't work hard. Basically, its fend for yourself and prove to the school that you can hack it. So before the Ivy League crowd does what they did during interview season (which is to get down on the state school system) maybe they should actually go to a state school and see what its like. Granted, its foolish to run around saying that one system is harder than the other speaking only in generalizations, but I'm tired of people looking at the name of my university and automatically assuming that I just showed up and filled out some forms to get my degree.

Well put, Larsitron. I honestly can't believe I am going to reply to this...seems we go through this type of pissing match about every other week on the pre-allo board. For those of you who think an Ivy education makes you superior, be prepared to be amazed at the number of students from "football powerhouse" state schools and little liberal arts schools you've never heard of when you matriculate.
I know this is all futile...no one is going to be swayed by messages on the internet. So, I'm climbing off my soap box and going back to being completely satisfied with my debt-free, top-20 engineering education from a school known only to some of you for its football team.

edfig99 · May 24, 2005

Loco Loki said:
Asking for stats? On an internet forum? Are you daft man?! Don't you know that they all refrence the "pull it out of my ass" handbook. You have one too, right? Let me consult mine. Ah, here it is!

awesome.

the mcat has it's flaws as well, and a grade/mcat discordance doesn't necessarily mean that there is grade inflation. i've seen plenty of people who simply don't test well...that doesn't mean they shouldn't go to med school or be doctors -- they ended up kickin' ass in med school and residency and beyond. they just had a harder time with standardized test like many other people do. many of the standardized tests really don't test knowledge (at least in my opinion; i'm sure the test boards think they do.) they test endurance and test-taking ability! a friend of mine is an educator who teaches test taking skills. he was not premed but took a couple of science classes in undergrad (bio and chem) years ago, took the mcat for "research" and got 10s across the board...with high school physics and no o chem. he's not a savant or anything like that, he just knows how to take a test.

having been on med school adcom and residency adcom, the reality is that joe smith from state school and john smith from an ivy really aren't different people. they do equally fine in med school...equally fine in boards...equally fine in residency and beyond. grade inflation exists in many schools - ivy and non-ivies included for one major reason -- $$$. but it's not grades or mcats that get you in (it will get you screened). it's all about the interpersonal stuff.

A 3.3 From Harvard/Yale/Princeton worth more than a 4.0 from a state school?

Junior Member

Senior Member

Trying to smile real hard

*** Angel

Milk was a bad choice

*** Angel

Junior Member

Member

Senior Member

Hedgehog!

Senior Member

T3-Weighted

Regional Guy for Hire!

Senior Member

"PeeT-Ro'k"

1K Member

Full Member

45408

T3-Weighted

T3-Weighted

Senior Member

WHITEBOY SLIM

Senior Member

45408

WHITEBOY SLIM

45408

WHITEBOY SLIM

Mac Addict

Full Member

Final Countdown

Member

Full Member

WHITEBOY SLIM

Senior Member

Full Member

WHITEBOY SLIM

Final Countdown

Junior Member

T3-Weighted

Member

T3-Weighted

T3-Weighted

Senior Member

The quick for you!

Junior Member

Sweet and Juicy!

Got Mustard?

45408

Senior Member

Full Member

Similar threads