Depressed reading about the match

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mac61 said:
Although I'm pretty sure that no one accrues committment while simultaneously NOT working off thier current obligation
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Wrong. If your residency is longer then your commitment, you'll rack up additional obligation. However, even if it isn't, you're still not reducing your obligation time while in residency. So while you were in a sh*thole, at least you were paying off the army's obligation time while there. In other words, that was the payback you had in mind when you signed up. Interns and residents aren't even effectively paying their time off while stationed in these locations. They just stuck there as free labor for the military's hospitals.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
Don't apologize, you were right on the mark with your earlier message. If I read one more post from some poor crying slob about how the military "screwed" him/her over because they were matched to someplace they didn't like or to someplace their sig other/fiance' doesn't want to go, I may start stabbing my eyes out!!

Let me try and break it down for those thinking about the military as an option.

Military truisms:

1. The military does not conform itself to you, you conform to it. There are certain standards (hair cuts, PT, whatever..), for the most part, these are not negotiable. If you don't like someone telling you how to dress, look, or act. DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY!

2. It's not always about you! Just because you did not get the location you desired, doesn't mean you got "screwed", it just means that for whatever reason the military needed a body in your billet and your name came up. Call it needs of the Navy/Army/AF or whatever. That's just the way it is.

3. It's all about attitude! This is true whatever you do. If you have a good attitude, it won't matter where you go, you will have a good time. I'll admit, sometimes this takes alot of willpower to tell yourself that you are having fun but it will be worth it if you are successful. Attitudes are also very infectious so keep yours positive. Nobody enjoys hearing you b!*ch all the time, so stop doing it.

4. The military deploys :scared:!!! This may come as a shocker but it's true. I lost count of how many people at this site are whining about deployments. That's just the way it is with todays environment. You may be one of the lucky ones and stay stateside, but don't count on it or expect it.

5. If you don't like your command, wait 5 minutes. The military is always changing people out and moving people. I was at my first command for nearly five years before transferring, and in that time I went through 3 CO's and 4 XO's and numerous department heads. Everyone had their own way of doing things. In short, if your life sucks be patient and refer to truism #3. You will eventually get transferred or deployed or the person above you will, and things will be different.

6. The military isn't perfect. Change what you can, don't worry about the rest.
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I would have agreed with all of those things several years ago. You're not even close to the first person who has no military medical experience from a physician's standpoint (but lots of military experience or military medical experience as another healthcare professional) to be sickened by all the b*tching and moaning that goes on here. But you don't yet understand what a very difficult 10 year training program really means.

My bet is that your "positive attitude" will be a lot different 5 years from now.
 
Mirror Form said:
I would have agreed with all of those things several years ago. You're not even close to the first person who has no military medical experience from a physician's standpoint (but lots of military experience or military medical experience as another healthcare professional) to be sickened by all the b*tching and moaning that goes on here. But you don't yet understand what a very difficult 10 year training program really means.

My bet is that your "positive attitude" will be a lot different 5 years from now.
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Having experience as a physician has absolutely nothing to do with the issues you are talking about. The core problems are:

1. You didn't go where you wanted and now you don't feel like you are getting the training/experiences that will help you to further your career later on. Maybe you don't like the people you are working with because they are all *****s. Maybe you don't live near family.
2. You feel stuck and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it.

I have plenty of experiences with core issues like these. I am also an expert on b*tching and moaning, having done plenty myself about problems 1 and 2. Honestly, truisms #3 and #5 apply here. These are universal truths! Do the best with what you've got and things will change eventually. I have had my "positive attitude" for nearly 16 years dealing with crap in the military, I seriously doubt it will change in the next 5. Try to smile once in a while 😀 and remember that attitude is infectious. Try not to be infected by bad ones around you.


P.S. To Sethco, your thoughts about the 49ers are true, but that's why God invented fantasy football!!!
 
SF49ers Fan said:
P.S. To Sethco, your thoughts about the 49ers are true, but that's why God invented fantasy football!!!
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Don't worry...I have no room to talk, my Ravens suck horribly this year and continue to dissappoint me on an almost yearly basis
 
Don't worry...I have no room to talk, my Ravens suck horribly this year and continue to dissappoint me on an almost yearly basis
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Go talk to a Falcons fan. You'll feel better.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
Having experience as a physician has absolutely nothing to do with the issues you are talking about. The core problems are:

1. You didn't go where you wanted and now you don't feel like you are getting the training/experiences that will help you to further your career later on. Maybe you don't like the people you are working with because they are all *****s. Maybe you don't live near family.
2. You feel stuck and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about it.
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The issue is much larger than that and involves professional standards and credentialing.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
Don't apologize, you were right on the mark with your earlier message. If I read one more post from some poor crying slob about how the military "screwed" him/her over because they were matched to someplace they didn't like or to someplace their sig other/fiance' doesn't want to go, I may start stabbing my eyes out!!

Let me try and break it down for those thinking about the military as an option.

Military truisms:

1. The military does not conform itself to you, you conform to it. There are certain standards (hair cuts, PT, whatever..), for the most part, these are not negotiable. If you don't like someone telling you how to dress, look, or act. DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY!

2. It's not always about you! Just because you did not get the location you desired, doesn't mean you got "screwed", it just means that for whatever reason the military needed a body in your billet and your name came up. Call it needs of the Navy/Army/AF or whatever. That's just the way it is.

3. It's all about attitude! This is true whatever you do. If you have a good attitude, it won't matter where you go, you will have a good time. I'll admit, sometimes this takes alot of willpower to tell yourself that you are having fun but it will be worth it if you are successful. Attitudes are also very infectious so keep yours positive. Nobody enjoys hearing you b!*ch all the time, so stop doing it.

4. The military deploys :scared:!!! This may come as a shocker but it's true. I lost count of how many people at this site are whining about deployments. That's just the way it is with todays environment. You may be one of the lucky ones and stay stateside, but don't count on it or expect it.

5. If you don't like your command, wait 5 minutes. The military is always changing people out and moving people. I was at my first command for nearly five years before transferring, and in that time I went through 3 CO's and 4 XO's and numerous department heads. Everyone had their own way of doing things. In short, if your life sucks be patient and refer to truism #3. You will eventually get transferred or deployed or the person above you will, and things will be different.

6. The military isn't perfect. Change what you can, don't worry about the rest.
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100% accurate.
Thanks,

For those who believe the the military somehow seeks to "screw" people, it just isn't the case. As stated above, sometimes what the individual wants and what the military needs are at odds. Sometimes, the individual isn't qualified or competative for what they want.

As the quality of HPSP applicants declines (this is not a point in doubt), the bottom half or maybe quarter start to be marginal for any training above that of a GP. This group however usually doesn't have the insight to figure this out, thus the just keep getting "screwed" by.. standardized tests, grades, and residency spots. I think we are seeing the fallout from the "everyone is a winner" baloney kids get in schools, afterall every kid in soccer now gets a trophy. Come on people, not everyone is going to get what they want and the bell curve for docs is the same as for everyone else, i.e. half of you are below average.


Trust me, we have some real dense kids in the program now, and I'm sure some (clearly not all) of the disgruntled match posts are placed by this subset.

Reading this string, one thing is abundantly clear, if being a GMO is your major concern/fear, don't go USN or USAF as both have a much higher reliance on GMOs than the Army.
 
a1qwerty55 said:
For those who believe the the military somehow seeks to "screw" people, it just isn't the case. As stated above, sometimes what the individual wants and what the military needs are at odds. Sometimes, the individual isn't qualified or competative for what they want.

As the quality of HPSP applicants declines (this is not a point in doubt), the bottom half or maybe quarter start to be marginal for any training above that of a GP. This group however usually doesn't have the insight to figure this out, thus the just keep getting "screwed" by.. standardized tests, grades, and residency spots.
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Your post suggests that the average military medical student is substantially dumber than the average non-military medical student. I don't think this argument can be made very effectively. I sit here deployed with 7 docs, one of which was 3rd in his med school class (U of Indiana ~ 200+ students), another wrote 7 books in med school and residency, only 2 are DOs, one had board scores of 257-269-248 and none are caribbean/foreign trained. There are also 3 flight docs/GMOs here, all of whom tried to match into competitive specialties in the military match such as EM and ortho.

Over 50% of the students desiring EM this year in the AF didn't match (compared to <7% of US grads in the civilian match.) The AVERAGE med student got screwed. You can hardly blame that on the students being dumb, non-competitive etc. It is a systematic issue.

Lastly, for those who don't think not matching the first time=getting screwed, consider the fact that many people can't afford to go back and be residents, especially outside the military, after doing a 4 year GMO tour. They're 35 years old, have 4 kids and a spouse who would prefer not to eat mac and cheese three meals a day and live in a cardboard box. They are now stuck either staying in the military or getting out and trying to be a GP in a non-GP world if they want to put food on the table. By screwing people over, the military has increased the percentage of doctors staying in because their options are limited.

No one says that there is anyone out there doing this on purpose, it is a systems thing. By ensuring the needs of the military come first and the needs of the applicant come twenty-seventh, the military has ensured that all the good docs get out and all the bad docs stay in, with rare exceptions in both directions.
 
Over 50% of the students desiring EM this year in the AF didn't match (compared to <7% of US grads in the civilian match.) The AVERAGE med student got screwed. You can hardly blame that on the students being dumb, non-competitive etc. It is a systematic issue.
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I've always wondered why the numbers for US allo not matching are so low. Even in integrated plastics they advertise over a 90% match. I know that 90% of medical school students can't get into these competitive specialties, so how do such a high % if applicants match?

Anyway, I have yet to get an answer for how the board scores and class rank of the military match compare to the civilian match, for any specialty. It's one piece of informatoin that this forum has never managed to dig up, at least that I'm aware of. Until someone find it I feel like everyone's just arguing anecdotes.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
Lastly, for those who don't think not matching the first time=getting screwed, consider the fact that many people can't afford to go back and be residents, especially outside the military, after doing a 4 year GMO tour. They're 35 years old, have 4 kids and a spouse who would prefer not to eat mac and cheese three meals a day and live in a cardboard box. They are now stuck either staying in the military or getting out and trying to be a GP in a non-GP world if they want to put food on the table. By screwing people over, the military has increased the percentage of doctors staying in because their options are limited.
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I guess it's all about choice, then isn't it? I happen to nearly fit the profile that you describe. As a student I am making about what the average resident makes. I was in the military for quite a while making a good living and I made a CHOICE to persue a career that I wanted and not one that would have made my life easier. We are not eating mac and cheese, nor are we living in a cardboard box. If you play your cards right and manage money well, you would be just fine. I'll admit that life is not as comfortable as it was before, and my kids are probably not getting that shiny new Wii for Christmas this year, but this is only TEMPORARY. Your options are not limited, you just choose to be limited.

Before I get one of those "You are not a Physician, and don't know what you are talking about." responses. These kinds of choices are faced by EVERYONE in the military, enlisted and officers alike, on a daily basis. The specifics change but the overall concepts are the same. If you don't believe me, then you either haven't been around long enough to see it or you haven't spoken with enough of the troops that you care for to find out.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
I guess it's all about choice, then isn't it? I happen to nearly fit the profile that you describe. As a student I am making about what the average resident makes. I was in the military for quite a while making a good living and I made a CHOICE to persue a career that I wanted and not one that would have made my life easier. We are not eating mac and cheese, nor are we living in a cardboard box. If you play your cards right and manage money well, you would be just fine. I'll admit that life is not as comfortable as it was before, and my kids are probably not getting that shiny new Wii for Christmas this year, but this is only TEMPORARY. Your options are not limited, you just choose to be limited.

Before I get one of those "You are not a Physician, and don't know what you are talking about." responses. These kinds of choices are faced by EVERYONE in the military, enlisted and officers alike, on a daily basis. The specifics change but the overall concepts are the same. If you don't believe me, then you either haven't been around long enough to see it or you haven't spoken with enough of the troops that you care for to find out.
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I agree with everything you said. I am previously enlisted and also a prev USAF doc. What is just as important as "choice" is an informed choice.
Most students have no idea what they are getting into when they sign the HPSP dotted line. They probably dont realize that the military may also decide what your specialty is and most students/public know little of the too common "admin nightmare" that exists in many areas of milmed.

If somebody wants to join knowing what they will be sacrificing, great. Lots of fellow soldiers sacrifice alot more, and our soldiers deserve the best care.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
Your post suggests that the average military medical student is substantially dumber than the average non-military medical student.


Over 50% of the students desiring EM this year in the AF didn't match (compared to <7% of US grads in the civilian match.) The AVERAGE med student got screwed.
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No, I am pointing out that the bottom 1/4 is really scary, this wasn't the case a few years back.

I did point out that the USAF and USN are associated with higher GMO rates and thus lower residency selection rates from Internship. I would argue that this is common knowledge. Rather than getting screwed, the applicants, knowing it or not jumped services which by their nature make them matching much less likely.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
Lastly, for those who don't think not matching the first time=getting screwed, consider the fact that many people can't afford to go back and be residents, especially outside the military, after doing a 4 year GMO tour. They're 35 years old, have 4 kids and a spouse who would prefer not to eat mac and cheese three meals a day and live in a cardboard box. They are now stuck either staying in the military or getting out and trying to be a GP in a non-GP world if they want to put food on the table. By screwing people over, the military has increased the percentage of doctors staying in because their options are limited.
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Wait, so the fact that military residents get paid 2-3x what civilian residents do now falls under the "how the military screws doctors" column?

That's a new angle, even for this forum.

USAFdoc said:
They probably dont realize that the military may also decide what your specialty is
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Come on, you know this isn't true. The military has never forced anyone into any residency. Everyone has the option of doing their time as a GMO and getting out, however distasteful that option may be.
 
pgg said:
Come on, you know this isn't true. The military has never forced anyone into any residency. Everyone has the option of doing their time as a GMO and getting out, however distasteful that option may be.
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How would you categorize the selection pressure the military exerts on an applicant's choice of training based on availability of positions and other factors? (Low, Medium, High)
 
Come on, you know this isn't true. The military has never forced anyone into any residency. Everyone has the option of doing their time as a GMO and getting out, however distasteful that option may be.
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[/QUOTE]


nice try on the "spin" there. Of course nobody is "FORCED" and you are probably the only person out there that would have replied the way you did, "distasteful" as it was.
 
pgg said:
Wait, so the fact that military residents get paid 2-3x what civilian residents do now falls under the "how the military screws doctors" column?

That's a new angle, even for this forum.
.
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? You're certainly reading something odd into that. Let's look at Joe GMO. He has just finished his 4 year commitment and now has the choice between doing a military residency and getting out and doing a civilian residency. Here is how his choice lines up:

1) Stay in the military, make 80K/year but pick up an additional 3-5 years military commitment during which he will make 1/2 of the salary he would have made outside (true for all but primary care)

2) Get out, take a huge pay cut from ~95K/year to ~40K/year for the next 3-5 years and then make a real salary.

Suggesting the military option is "a good deal" shows just how little you understand about the process.
 
USAFdoc said:
nice try on the "spin" there. Of course nobody is "FORCED" and you are probably the only person out there that would have replied the way you did, "distasteful" as it was.
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No I totally would have replied the same way. You see facts are facts, like them or not.

I have to laugh. USAFdoc aren't you the guy running your own monologue on the Avoid Military Medicine thread? Truly an unbiased source.

His post is totally accurate. His point is valid. No one is forced into a residency, I say again,, NO ONE. They have the option of opting for a GMO and then can leave the service. He merely pointed out that for some this is a distastefull yet valid option.
 
Just thought I would chime in. The myth that the military pays 2-3x more than civilian programs is just that a myth. I have been interviewing at civilian residencies and have seen programs that can match if not beat military residents pay. For example, UAB as a resident if you are left in your room past 3pm its 50 per hour. Also, I have interviewed at TY internships that offer the base salary of roughly 45,000 yearly plus 2000 educational fun, plus lab coats, plus computer, also they offered 1000 dollar call in the ICU on weekends and 500 for weekday call not to mention a month of dedicated vacation(we all know how difficult this can be in the military). Some residents made 80,000 when all the benefits where included. As a civilian the numbers can blend with what is made as a mil resident if you look in the right places.
 
I have met some COLs, MAJs, and CPTs who are in the service as active-duty physicians. Depending on their speciality, you will see the differences in hands-on training compared to their civilian counterparts. They have the same education, MDs/DOs from strong programs, but clinically, many active-duty military physicians are at a slight disadvantage. There is always room for those who are highly motivated and make every attempt to prove they are just as good, if not better, than their civilian chums. However, the Army needs to improve on programs for their physicians to seek more clinical rotations periodically in their careers. The civilian sector provides a wider variety of rotations due to a higher volume of patients.

On the other hand, MDs/DOs who are reservists seem to get the best of both worlds. (World One) They get right into the mix of things sooner, performing surgical operations before their civilian chums; and (World 2.5) They have convienent access to more programs to enhance their skills and treat a diverse population of illnesses.

I personally will finish out my service obligation and let my VA benefits pay for the rest of my education. This paratrooper is a NO GO for military medicine.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
2) Get out, take a huge pay cut from ~95K/year to ~40K/year for the next 3-5 years and then make a real salary.
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This is exactly what I am doing, but I am also taking some "safeguards" that will raise my residency salary. For example, by the time I enter residency the GI Bill will fund about 15K per year for 3 years. Every single GMO, should be investing into the GI Bill (Even if you don't know whether or not you will be pursuing a military or civilian residency, or just staying as a "GMO-for-life"). In addition, I am taking about 8K from my ASP and placing it in an online savings account at about 5% interest per year, coming out to about 35K for the residency by the time I am done. So 35K+45K=80K divided by 3 years of residency comes out to about 27K extra per year, so the new salary actually looks very liveable (At least if you are not living in DC/Boston/NYC/West Coast) at 67K per year.

It does suck losing about 25K in salary from 4th GMO year to 2nd year residency, but hopefully the safegurads I am taking now will make life a little easier during my 3 year residency.
 
narcusprince said:
Just thought I would chime in. The myth that the military pays 2-3x more than civilian programs is just that a myth. I have been interviewing at civilian residencies and have seen programs that can match if not beat military residents pay. For example, UAB as a resident if you are left in your room past 3pm its 50 per hour. Also, I have interviewed at TY internships that offer the base salary of roughly 45,000 yearly plus 2000 educational fun, plus lab coats, plus computer, also they offered 1000 dollar call in the ICU on weekends and 500 for weekday call not to mention a month of dedicated vacation(we all know how difficult this can be in the military). Some residents made 80,000 when all the benefits where included. As a civilian the numbers can blend with what is made as a mil resident if your look in the right places.
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This is all anecdotal evidence. If I wanted to, I could probably find an example of O-4 doing a second residency (and thus getting his first specialty's pay) in OCONUS who speaks 3 languages and has dependents that is making two to three times what these "supplemented" civilian residents are making.

Besides, most civilian places that offer that kind of money are trying to lure people to an otherwise undesirable place, or at least that's what the deans at my school told me when I was applying. I'd also like some clarification on that UAB information. I graduated from there, and at least 1/3 of my classmates stayed there. I've never heard anything about them getting paid extra to stay past 3pm.

The truth is that most civilian residents make somewhere around $40,000, and most military residents make considerably more than that.
 
colbgw02 said:
I'd also like some clarification on that UAB information. I graduated from there, and at least 1/3 of my classmates stayed there. I've never heard anything about them getting paid extra to stay past 3pm.
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I think he/she is referring to the Anesthesia program. From what I hear they have a pretty sweet in-house moonlighting/late call system
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
1) Stay in the military, make 80K/year but pick up an additional 3-5 years military commitment during which he will make 1/2 of the salary he would have made outside (true for all but primary care)

2) Get out, take a huge pay cut from ~95K/year to ~40K/year for the next 3-5 years and then make a real salary.
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GMO tours are an interruption in training, and I agree that everyone would be better off going straight into residency. It's a shame the Navy didn't actually get rid of them the way the recruiter I spoke to in 1997 said they would.

Lots of GMOs get out and somehow manage to get by as civilians, usually quite happily. Don't forget that the people who do GMO tours and get out for civilian residencies can collect GI bill benefits. That's what, $40K of untaxed money?

How about all the nontraditional med school grads? My brother's a 40 year old MS3 with three kids. Somehow he, like 1000s of others before him, will make it through a civilian residency earning $45K/year, and he (like them) will do it carrying a lot of educational debt too. It's hard to see how the exiting debt-less GMO is more "screwed" than he is.

ActiveDutyMD said:
Suggesting the military option is "a good deal" shows just how little you understand about the process.
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I made no statement regarding which was a better deal. I just pointed out that your criticism of the military, in that particular post, was based on the fact that the military pays GMOs and residents a higher wage. I have said, many times, that the military is a poor choice if you do the financial math. Unless, perhaps, you pick primary care.

USAFdoc said:
nice try on the "spin" there
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Sigh, no spin. It's the truth. Even though I enjoyed my GMO tour, I'm not defending the existence of GMO tours, which I think are a waste for both the military and the physician.

Again, you clearly said that "the military may also decide what your specialty is" ... this has never been true. (Would the RRC even accredit programs that draft residents against their will? I wonder.)

IgD said:
How would you categorize the selection pressure the military exerts on an applicant's choice of training based on availability of positions and other factors? (Low, Medium, High)
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There's self-selection going on in the civilian match, too. I think the answer to that question is so heavily dependent upon the person's desired specialty that generalizations are not helpful. Some specialties are more competitive in the military (ER immediately leaps to mind). However, as has been pointed out, some competitive residencies on the civilian side are easier to get in the military.

In general though, military GME is a smaller pool, with much more year-to-year variability than the civilian match - both in terms of # of slots available, and the competition for those slots. All this has been said here many times before - if some choose to interpret this as institutionalized screwing of doctors, well, OK. I disagree.

narcusprince said:
The myth that the military pays 2-3x more than civilian programs is just that a myth.
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As a civilian, at some programs it's possible to moonlight (outside or in-house), or make extra money in other ways. But this is not the norm, and an objective look at most civilian vs most military resident salaries simply has to acknowledge that the military residents get paid a lot more.

narcusprince said:
a month of dedicated vacation(we all know how difficult this can be in the military).
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I thought the RRC-imposed limit to vacation time is 20 days per year (14 for PGY1s). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
pgg said:
Again, you clearly said that "the military may also decide what your specialty is" ... this has never been true. (Would the RRC even accredit programs that draft residents against their will? I wonder.)

As a civilian, at some programs it's possible to moonlight (outside or in-house), or make extra money in other ways. But this is not the norm, and an objective look at most civilian vs most military resident salaries simply has to acknowledge that the military residents get paid a lot more.

I thought the RRC-imposed limit to vacation time is 20 days per year (14 for PGY1s). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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3 comments. First, I had 30 days of paid vacation all 3 years of my civilian residency. There certainly isn't a 20 day RRC maximum. Perhaps that's what the military tells its residents, I don't know.

In some specialties (such as EM) moonlighting is the norm for civilian residents. The going rate where I trained was $80/hour. You can do the math to figure out how much you have to work to make up for not getting military pay. It isn't that much.

Lastly, you say the military doesn't pick your specialty. While they do not force you to do a residency, they certainly can pick your specialty, at least for the time you are indebted to them. Being forced to do a surgical internship (when you desired a medicine one or a transitional one) happens all the time. Being forced to be a GMO or a flight doc rather than an ophthalmologist or orthopedist is also having "the military pick your specialty."

I'm confident if it were practical for the military to force you to do a particular residency they would do so. Luckily for all of us, it isn't.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
3 comments. First, I had 30 days of paid vacation all 3 years of my civilian residency. There certainly isn't a 20 day RRC maximum. Perhaps that's what the military tells its residents, I don't know.
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Could just be anesthesia, then. Or maybe I'm wrong.

ActiveDutyMD said:
In some specialties (such as EM) moonlighting is the norm for civilian residents. The going rate where I trained was $80/hour. You can do the math to figure out how much you have to work to make up for not getting military pay. It isn't that much.
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Wait, I thought your point was that GMO tours inflict an additional hardship because post-GMO civilian residents earn so much less, and their wives and broods don't like mac & cheese? Which side are you arguing?

If the norm is truly $80/hour moonlighting, can't they at least afford the deluxe Velveeta stuff and maybe some hot dogs to cut up in it?

ActiveDutyMD said:
Lastly, you say the military doesn't pick your specialty. While they do not force you to do a residency, they certainly can pick your specialty, at least for the time you are indebted to them. Being forced to do a surgical internship (when you desired a medicine one or a transitional one) happens all the time. Being forced to be a GMO or a flight doc rather than an ophthalmologist or orthopedist is also having "the military pick your specialty."
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I thought we were talking about residency.

Yes, the military can force you to spend GMO years working as a glorified intern GP slave. They can also put you in an internship that, in the worst case, doesn't meet the prelim year requirements for the residency you want. But I suspect that most of the people who actually have to repeat their PGY1 year (because they got medicine instead of surgery, for example) were either weak applicants, or didn't rotate, or didn't interview, or were otherwise less competitive.

ActiveDutyMD said:
I'm confident if it were practical for the military to force you to do a particular residency they would do so.
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That may be. And if it were practical for civilian programs to pay residents nothing and make them work 120 hours/week, I'm confident they'd do so. But it's not, and they don't, so what's the point of speculating what anyone might do if they only could?

If we're going to discuss this any further, let's confine ourselves to what the military actually does.
 
CA0708 said:
I personally will finish out my service obligation and let my VA benefits pay for the rest of my education. This paratrooper is a NO GO for military medicine.
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Congratulations, you just made the best decision of your life. Enjoy the study and practice of medicine unencumbered by the nightmare of military medicine. Please point others to this site and encourage them to seek the truth before signing on the dotted line. Good luck.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
2) Get out, take a huge pay cut from ~95K/year to ~40K/year for the next 3-5 years and then make a real salary.
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PLease don't forget to take advantage of the GI Bill plus kicker benefits!!! $1250 extra every month...👍

"ONLY persons currently on active duty who first entered service after June 30,1985 can contribute (to their military branch) in increments of $20 up to $600. Members who are being separated under a voluntary or involuntary separation program do not qualify, unless they were eligible before the discharge program.

If you are on active duty, you will need to contact your Education Services Officer to begin contributing to the program. In general, each $20 a service member contributes to the "Buy-Up" will add $5 to the full-time monthly rate. For less than full-time training, see the chart below:

For each $20 contribution, add the listed amount to the monthly benefit rate. Ex: $100 contribution with full-time enrollment would add $25/month to the benefit rate."

https://www.gibill2.va.gov/vba/vba....nMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0y&p_li=&p_topview=1

CLICK ON THE "BUY UP" LINK
 
SF49ers Fan said:
Before I get one of those "You are not a Physician, and don't know what you are talking about." responses. These kinds of choices are faced by EVERYONE in the military, enlisted and officers alike, on a daily basis. The specifics change but the overall concepts are the same. If you don't believe me, then you either haven't been around long enough to see it or you haven't spoken with enough of the troops that you care for to find out.
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As usual, it's always a med student who's telling all the doctor's on this board "what it's really like."

I have an idea, after you've missed well over half of your children's lives working in internship/residency, and then being deployed, let me know if you think that military medicine is just like every other field.

I'm not saying that the sacrifice isn't worth it. But the training length and sacrifice in medicine is just too long for people to be able tolerate having very little control over it. And it's especially too long to have some idiots screwing around with your career, and possibley f'ing it up for stupid reasons. That's why military medicine is a lot different then what you're used to.

People from military infantry units don't get as worked up b/c they didn't sacrifice 8-10 years of their lives just get into an infantry unit in the first place. By the time they've sacrificed 8-10 years of their lives they have the option of getting out.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you also have zero experience as a military physician?
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You're wrong, he's an Army physician with over 10 years experience. I think know the guy you're thinking of, the guy who came here trying to get he wife out of HPSP? He's not that guy.
 
Perrotfish said:
You're wrong, he's an Army physician with over 10 years experience. I think know the guy you're thinking of, the guy who came here trying to get he wife out of HPSP? He's not that guy.
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I know he's not Westside. I thought I remembered a1qwerty55 saying he was a PA at some point. But it wouldn't be the first time I got different poster's confused.

Edit: so yeah, I was thinking of alpha.
 
I know he's not Westside. I thought I remembered a1qwerty55 saying he was a PA at some point. But it wouldn't be the first time I got different poster's confused.
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:Edit: That's alpha, the Army PA. A1 definitely says he's an Army doctor.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
3 comments. First, I had 30 days of paid vacation all 3 years of my civilian residency. There certainly isn't a 20 day RRC maximum. Perhaps that's what the military tells its residents, I don't know.

In some specialties (such as EM) moonlighting is the norm for civilian residents. The going rate where I trained was $80/hour. You can do the math to figure out how much you have to work to make up for not getting military pay. It isn't that much.

Lastly, you say the military doesn't pick your specialty. While they do not force you to do a residency, they certainly can pick your specialty, at least for the time you are indebted to them. Being forced to do a surgical internship (when you desired a medicine one or a transitional one) happens all the time. Being forced to be a GMO or a flight doc rather than an ophthalmologist or orthopedist is also having "the military pick your specialty."

I'm confident if it were practical for the military to force you to do a particular residency they would do so. Luckily for all of us, it isn't.
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Wow, a little over the top here. The ACGME website details its recommendations for vacation for programs (not required but...) at 20 working days which translates to 4 weeks. Yes, this is different from leave, since we get charged for the weekends.

"being forced to do a surgical internship...happens all the time" I don't think so. In my experience, people are able to get the internship they want. Its a pyramid (20 IM interns, 10 IM residents, 12 GS interns, 6 residents, etc). The exception that I've seen is people who rank transitional first have occ been pushed into other internships (this has really changed with the new intern selection process). This definitely doesn't lead to them necessarily getting the residency of their choice in the military, but having to repeat an internship is uncommon and usually the result of an individual changing career paths.

You are confident that the military would force people to train in particular residencies? Why? If the system collapses from lack of interest, just remember that there is a special place in the selective service laws allowing the President to draft doctors without drafting anyone else. To me, that result is just as likely than forcing people to train in residencies they don't want. There's plenty to be frustrated about without making up complaints, no?
 
Stand By!
 
Mirror Form said:
As usual, it's always a med student who's telling all the doctor's on this board "what it's really like."

I have an idea, after you've missed well over half of your children's lives working in internship/residency, and then being deployed, let me know if you think that military medicine is just like every other field.

I'm not saying that the sacrifice isn't worth it. But the training length and sacrifice in medicine is just too long for people to be able tolerate having very little control over it. And it's especially too long to have some idiots screwing around with your career, and possibley f'ing it up for stupid reasons. That's why military medicine is a lot different then what you're used to.

People from military infantry units don't get as worked up b/c they didn't sacrifice 8-10 years of their lives just get into an infantry unit in the first place. By the time they've sacrificed 8-10 years of their lives they have the option of getting out.
Click to expand...

You have absolutly got to be kidding me! You have no idea what you're talking about. This med student has more time sitting ON THE CRAPPER, on deployment, than you have TIME IN SERVICE! When I came in you probably weren't in middle school yet and with as much b*#tching and whining that you are doing, it definetly was before your first PAP smear!

You cry about missing family time during internship/residency to roll over into a deployment, and then state that no one in the world, except another physician, can relate to you and your sorrows. Tell you what, go ahead and find some old crusty E-6 or E-7 who just came in out of the sand and give him this same sob story you are shuving at us and see if he doesn't give you the same blank stare I'm giving you right now. Why don't you ask him how much time he's spent away from his family, or if he ever felt any pressure to reenlist. Your situations are very similar. Your right about a couple of differences, though. You are making two to three times as much as he does, and when you are done, you will be making however-many-hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Make sure to add this in to see if he will feel any more sorry for you.

I know you will never speak to one of these guys, because you don't care! It's still all about you right? Trust me, your situation is NOT so special that others in the military can't relate.

When these posts are talking about actual medicine, patient care, etc.. I will defer to you and others who are more qualified than me. When we are talking about deployments or other aspects of the military, you better stay in the back seat with the rest of the kids until you have more time in the military than fingers on one hand (and NO, time in medschool or USUHS doesn't count)!
 
Gastrapathy said:
Wow, a little over the top here. The ACGME website details its recommendations for vacation for programs (not required but...) at 20 working days which translates to 4 weeks. Yes, this is different from leave, since we get charged for the weekends.

"being forced to do a surgical internship...happens all the time" I don't think so. In my experience, people are able to get the internship they want.

You are confident that the military would force people to train in particular residencies? Why? If the system collapses from lack of interest, ....There's plenty to be frustrated about without making up complaints, no?
Click to expand...

30 days military leave=30 days off for 24/7 fields like EM=20 days for M-F 8-5 fields such as primary care. It is all about how you define it I guess. Personally, I count weekends and holidays because I work weekends and holidays routinely.

I'm not saying the military is ever going to force anyone to do a full residency (they won't because as I said, it isn't practical.) If they tried, people would just perform so poorly they'd be thrown out of the program. That is relatively easy to do. The only reason interns don't do it is because they know it would seriously affect their future match. A resident could get away with it because he could tell the people he later interviewed with that "I wanted to do Ophtho and this was the only way I could get out of my 5 year general surgery residency."

As far as people being put into undesired internships I stand by my claim that it happens all the time. I know several personally who weren't bad med students at all. It has more to do with them being interested in a competitive specialty than with them being a bad student.
 
Mirror Form said:
I'm not saying that the sacrifice isn't worth it. But the training length and sacrifice in medicine is just too long for people to be able tolerate having very little control over it. And it's especially too long to have some idiots screwing around with your career, and possibley f'ing it up for stupid reasons. That's why military medicine is a lot different then what you're used to.
Click to expand...

This is the most succinct summary of this forum I have read in the 8 years I have been here. Well said. For 49ers man this is the difference between putting up with B.S. during a 2 year enlisted tour (even with long deployments) and being a military doc.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
You have absolutely got to be kidding me! You have no idea what you're talking about. This med student has more time sitting ON THE CRAPPER, on deployment, than you have TIME IN SERVICE! When I came in you probably weren't in middle school yet and with as much b*#tching and whining that you are doing, it definitely was before your first Pap smear!
Click to expand...

Whoa, settle down.

First of all, if you spent that much time on the crapper, you should've listened to your wet-behind-the-ears GMO and washed your hands more often.

Second, it's really not useful to compare the life experiences of your crusty E7 who enlisted out of high school to those of a military physician. Useful comparisons, at least for the purposes of threads like this one, are between military physicians and civilian physicians. This is because when most potential HPSP recipients are weighing their options, they're not interested in how military medicine compares to life as a grunt. The grunt's life is irrelevant; they've already decided to be doctors. They want to know how choosing military medicine vs civilian medicine will affect their lives.

Most everyone here, even the ones who hate the military medical system with a burning passion, have deep respect and appreciation for the people who actually carry guns into bad places. In fact, on this forum, our patient population is probably the #1 cited positive thing about military medicine. So please don't take it the wrong way when most of us dismiss your enlisted experiences as irrelevant. This thread and most of its derailments are about the military match and whether we have it better or worse than those who go through the civilian match. E6 gunslingers and their deployment calendars don't really figure in.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
This is the most succinct summary of this forum I have read in the 8 years I have been here. Well said. For 49ers man this is the difference between putting up with B.S. during a 2 year enlisted tour (even with long deployments) and being a military doc.
Click to expand...

Most of the enlisted guys I knew had initial commitments from 4-6 years (I know there are quite a few 2 year guys out there. My initial commitment was for 4 years). A good number of these guys are married with kids by the time their enlistment is up, and then they are faced with the tough choice of getting out with no guarantees about income or reenlisting for another tour (4 years the first time I reenlisted, 6 the second). This happens to be nearly the same problems that some guys face coming off of a GMO tour. My whole point in all this is there are a lot of similarities. The only reason why I had to point out these similarities was to qualify my posts on this thread that I do know what it's like to stare down a long commitment in a situation that I am unhappy in. I happen to agree that the commitments made by physicians are long and shouldn't be taken lightly. 🙂
 
pgg said:
Second, it's really not useful to compare the life experiences of your crusty E7 who enlisted out of high school to those of a military physician. Useful comparisons, at least for the purposes of threads like this one, are between military physicians and civilian physicians. This is because when most potential HPSP recipients are weighing their options, they're not interested in how military medicine compares to life as a grunt. The grunt's life is irrelevant; they've already decided to be doctors. They want to know how choosing military medicine vs civilian medicine will affect their lives.
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I would almost agree completely with this statement. Unless the subject of discussion happens to be about dealing with general issues about military BS (deployments, *****s for superiors, whatever). My first post was directed to those future or current HPSPers and what they need to know about certain military constants. All of the other stuff was only brought up for some schmucks who tried to say that, because I am a med student, I have no experience with long paybacks, dealing with military BS, or stationed someplace that sucks with no end in site.
 
Tired said:
You still don't get it, so let me try to be a little more blunt than pgg was.
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OK, apparently you are missing my point. I am not asking YOU to deeply contemplate your life vs Joe Soldier. Unless you don't feel like I am qualified to express my distaste for those on this site who gripe and complain about how the military "screwed" them, and how they have to go play in the sand for a while. If this doesn't apply to YOU then ignore it.
 
SF49ers Fan said:
You have absolutly got to be kidding me! You have no idea what you're talking about. This med student has more time sitting ON THE CRAPPER, on deployment, than you have TIME IN SERVICE! When I came in you probably weren't in middle school yet and with as much b*#tching and whining that you are doing, it definetly was before your first PAP smear!
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised by your reaction. When I was 21 years old and out at advanced camp I would have been sickened by doctors whining about how tough they had it. How could those b*tches complain about their situation when everyone else in the military is crawling throught the mud and deploying for twice as long?

SF49ers Fan said:
You cry about missing family time during internship/residency to roll over into a deployment, and then state that no one in the world, except another physician, can relate to you and your sorrows. Tell you what, go ahead and find some old crusty E-6 or E-7 who just came in out of the sand and give him this same sob story you are shuving at us and see if he doesn't give you the same blank stare I'm giving you right now. Why don't you ask him how much time he's spent away from his family, or if he ever felt any pressure to reenlist. Your situations are very similar. Your right about a couple of differences, though. You are making two to three times as much as he does, and when you are done, you will be making however-many-hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Make sure to add this in to see if he will feel anymore sorry for you.
Click to expand...

You just don't get it. It's not about who has it rougher over in the desert. It's about who sacrifices over a decade of their lives just to START their career (not finish).

SF49ers Fan said:
I know you will never speak to one of these guys, because you don't care! It's still all about you right? Trust me, your situation is NOT so special that others in the military can't relate.
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Wow, now you're really using a strawman argument. These are the kinds of people I take care of every single day (and night) when they get back from OIF w/ 3 limbs. Taking care of our troops who were injured over in the desert is really one of only great things about my job.

SF49ers Fan said:
When these posts are talking about actual medicine, patient care, etc.. I will defer to you and others who are more qualified than me. When we are talking about deployments or other aspects of the military, you better stay in the back seat with the rest of the kids until you have more time in the military than fingers on one hand (and NO, time in medschool or USUHS doesn't count)!
Click to expand...

Once again, I'm not talking about who has it rougher in the desert. I'm talking about busting your a$$ and sacrificing a decade of your life (or longer) for a career, which the military then jeapordizes.
 
Mirror Form said:
Once again, I'm not talking about who has it rougher in the desert. I'm talking about busting your a$$ and sacrificing a decade of your life (or longer) for a career, which the military then jeapordizes.
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Actually your first point to me was:
"You're not even close to the first person who has no military medical experience from a physician's standpoint to be sickened by all the b*tching and moaning that goes on here. But you don't yet understand what a very difficult 10 year training program really means."

And your second was:
"As usual, it's always a med student who's telling all the doctor's on this board "what it's really like."
I have an idea, after you've missed well over half of your children's lives working in internship/residency, and then being deployed, let me know if you think that military medicine is just like every other field."

It sounded to me like you didn't think I knew what it was like for you. You thought that because I happen to be a med student or not-yet-physician, that I couldn't relate to all of your problems. You are wrong. I gave you some very sound advice (Military Truisms), especially about attitude, that can help make your life easier. I understand that you are in a very difficult training program and staring down the throat of a long commitment. I have dealt with a lot of the issues (in principle) that you absolutely detest about the military. I am not trying to blow smoke up your butt and tell you it's not going to suck for a while. I am just asking you to take my advice and do the best with what you have and try to stay positive, because eventually you will reach your goals and this will all just be a bad dream. Friends? 😀
 
And God bless us, everyone

Seriously even in the World Wars the had a Christmas Truce. Merry Christmas all.
 
JUST REMEMBER: PAY BACK AND GET OUT! Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, Mele Kalikimaka...
 
Lets stop feeding the med stud troll. Besides, in a few years, his prior service and wonderful attitude will somehow get him directly promoted to DMS of some hospital and we'll all be working for him.
 
Gastrapathy said:
Lets stop feeding the med stud troll.
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Yes, for the love of all that's holy, please stop encouraging that knuckle-dragger. I'm tired of reading all of his stupid posts that don't follow this tread!

Ah crap! I think this was directed at me. Nevermind.
 
pgg said:
Seeing healthy 18-25 year olds with URIs and sprained ankles. Admin duties. Powerpoint slides for weekly staff meetings.

As of 3 or 4 years ago, at least at Camp Lejeune, GMOs aren't even permitted to submit med boards for their own sick and injured.

The most I ever did while in garrison, treatment-wise, for a Marine with a combat injury, was type up memos and sign light duty chits so they could get out of the battalion runs so they could go to their physical therapy appointments.

GMOs do not have medically challenging or stimulating jobs.
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From the picture that is painted here the daily GMO tasks appear to be sick call, maybe some appointments, admin, and meetings. Deployment medical duties are limited. It sounds like the command was hesitant to give GMO's much of a clinical leash. From your experience:

1. Is this the norm for most GMO tours or just at your command?
2. Is it that they don't trust the GMO's ability to have more responsibilities or is this just the standard policy?
3. Did your duties change the longer you were there and the command was able to get a better feel for you?
4. Were you given opportunities to attend conferences or anything like this to improve, or just left on your own?
 
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