Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT

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Again, the 2007 data came from AACOM's latest and greatest new data book (see the picture of it above).
Some complain to AACOM if you like.

This is confusing to me. When I post data from the only source(s) available to me, you get really mad. (speaking about the comlex thread)

Then you post outdated data, and defend it as the only data available and unlikely to change in the last ~4 years.

I will also agree that your typical post as of late is inflammatory and belittling. It does not seem to me that you are "responding to such posts in a similar fashion", it seem to be your M.O.

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exPCM, I have a question for you, if you don't mind. What is the endgame for you? Are you trying to improve osteopathic medical education? Are you trying to steer students to (unlikely, given your posting history) or away from (more likely) osteopathic medical schools? I'm just curious what your goal is with posts like these.

For the record, I think its an interesting post with potentially useful information but I think your approach leaves something to be desired.

Ok - I am not here to steer anyone in any direction. My goal is to provide facts and some analysis. Students will set their own course. I consider osteopathic physicians equivalent to allopathic physicians and most physicians I know who came from DO schools actually do very little OMT in their post medical school practice..
However as far as the education system goes there are some schools that show more concern with $ than education and you will not hear that at their admission offices.
What makes you say I am trying to steer students to or away from osteopathic medicine as that is not my goal at all. You must follow your own course with decisions you make that are hopefully based on accurate information.

This is confusing to me. When I post data from the only source(s) available to me, you get really mad. (speaking about the comlex thread)

Then you post outdated data, and defend it as the only data available and unlikely to change in the last ~4 years.

I will also agree that your typical post as of late is inflammatory and belittling. It does not seem to me that you are "responding to such posts in a similar fashion", it seem to be your M.O.

I did not see that you posted any data at all, just heresay. The current medical school entering class is the entering class from summer 2009. If your read the thread I posted up to summer 2007 class initially - that is two years ago not four years ago. I then followed up with the data for the summer 2008 entering class. The current summer 2009 matriculants is the only data I have not seen. So I have posted all the stats from 2000-2008 and am only missing the current new class (summer 2009 entrants) data. That is not outdated. So quit your whining and actually try to post something useful if possible please. If you read this thread you are the initial whining flamer not me.

I have read/been involved in several of threads involving exPCM, and all I have to say is this; I hope you convey your facts and opinions to your patients in a better manner than you do on SDN. I believe you have a perspective that could benefit the readers on SDN greatly, yet because of the manner of your posts most premeds will miss out on the opportunity to benefit from your knowledge. Delivery is key to communications and you sir suck at it.

As a nontraditional that was involved in a managerial/leadership role, you treat the premeds on this forum as if they are beneath you. I have seen this style used many times and suspect that during residency it will pop up again. Yet this is not the place for it. Just because you have the attending title does not demand respect here. Respect here is given to those that earn it by lending a helping hand. You have stated in other postings that you just want the truth out about the profession. Yet on here, all I get out of your posts is an anonymous poster ranting about various things to people that have no say in the process.

I think there is this forum too much making assumptions of motives and reading things that aren't there. In this thread all I posted initailly was MCAT data and a prediction (proved true) that posters would give numbers for various schools that were at or above the mean.

From this simple post I have been basically accused (based on nothing I posted) of trying to steer people to or away form osteopathic medicine, of saying that osteopathic physicians are not equivalent and that osteopathic schools are not good, and all sorts of ridiculous assumptions. I am not asking people to guess what I am thinking - I just posted some facts that some people can't seem to look at without getting emotional. I do however respond vigorously to false and ridiculous posts. My posting manner here is identical to how I post on physician sites like Sermo yet on Sermo I never seem to see the wild accusations fly like I do here.
 
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Ok - I am not here to steer anyone in any direction. My goal is to provide facts and some analysis. Students will set their own course. I consider osteopathic physicians equivalent to allopathic physicians and most physicians I know who came from DO schools actually do very little OMT in their post medical school practice..
However as far as the education system goes there are some schools that show more concern with $ than education and you will not hear that at their admission offices.
What makes you say I am trying to steer students to or away from osteopathic medicine as that is not my goal at all. You must follow your own course with decisions you make that are hopefully based on accurate information.

1)Is that why all your posts about the profession are negative?
2) Every business in America uses this philosophy. If they didn't and education was primary to finances, they would be out of business and no one would get educated. They goal of the school is and always will be first to be able to operate. Secondary goal is to educate.
If you don't think money drives all schools, you are mistaken.
 
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To exPCM,
Look back over your last 20, 40, 60 or however many posts and do a statistical analysis of how many are viewed by others as negative or you defending an earlier post. Then compare them to how many you post that is in response to a specific individual that can be deemed positive or insightful.

I'll restate what I said earlier, YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO HELP MANY PEOPLE LOOKING TO BREAK INTO THIS PROFESSION. Whether that is help them decide if it is for them or not is individually based.

I hope soon you will see that your posts are a complete waste of time for others to read due to your delivery. For instance, over your last ten posts I consider 1 maybe two to be positive (really one of them was good, the other was good until a finally last jab was inserted but I gave you a positive rating out of pitty). One of the threads you started was griping about tuition costs (which does not concern you) in a premed forum. REALLY? Do you think premeds can change the cost of tuition? Should we boycott medical school out of principal? Yes, we know costs are high. Yes it is good to be aware of financial debt. But really, what benefit AT ALL could come of that thread?
 
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1)Is that why all your posts about the profession are negative?
2) Every business in America uses this philosophy. If they didn't and education was primary to finances, they would be out of business and no one would get educated. They goal of the school is and always will be first to be able to operate. Secondary goal is to educate.
If you don't think money drives all schools, you are mistaken.

This is another assumption - there are positives and negatives in medicine - however I think pre-med/med students receive only positive spin from many schools (eg. don't worry about paying back those 300K in loans because doctors all make big money, etc.). I think it is important to hear some of the negatives.
There is a big difference between taking in money to meet operating costs and gouging medical students with sky high tuitions to pay sky high salaries (example IMO LECOM: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/251/698/2008-251698677-04b8ac70-9.pdf see pages 10 & 20 or PCOM: data posted here : http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments /2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf see pages 11 and 18 )

Many PCPs are working like dogs and struggling to make 150K/year by comparison.

These schools are frequently IMO taking advantage of the fact that there are more applicants than slots in medical school in order to gouge students.
If this is too negative for you so be it. However, I have talked to numerous colleagues who agree.

These schools are taking advantage of the student loan programs to make a killing. If student loans were severely limited then guess how much less medical schools would be able to charge and guess how quick the proliferation of franchises/branches would stop (Touro can you hear me?)
 
This is another assumption - there are positives and negatives in medicine - however I think pre-med/med students receive only positive spin from many schools (eg. don't worry about paying back those 300K in loans because doctors all make big money, etc.). I think it is important to hear some of the negatives.
There is a big difference between taking in money to meet operating costs and gouging medical students with sky high tuitions to pay sky high salaries (example IMO LECOM: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/251/698/2008-251698677-04b8ac70-9.pdf see pages 10 & 20 or PCOM: data posted here : http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments /2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf see pages 11 and 18 )

Many PCPs are working like dogs and struggling to make 150K/year by comparison.

These schools are frequently IMO taking advantage of the fact that there are more applicants than slots in medical school in order to gouge students.
If this is too negative for you so be it. However, I have talked to numerous colleagues who agree.

These schools are taking advantage of the student loan programs to make a killing. If student loans were severely limited then guess how much less medical schools would be able to charge and guess how quick the proliferation of franchises/branches would stop (Touro can you hear me?)
Are you too tunnel visioned to see your posts and that you are in fact attempting (voluntarily or not) to steer premeds away from medicine?
You do realize that you will influence ZERO premeds with your methods right?
 
This is another assumption - there are positives and negatives in medicine - however I think pre-med/med students receive only positive spin from many schools (eg. don't worry about paying back those 300K in loans because doctors all make big money, etc.). I think it is important to hear some of the negatives.
There is a big difference between taking in money to meet operating costs and gouging medical students with sky high tuitions to pay sky high salaries (example IMO LECOM: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/251/698/2008-251698677-04b8ac70-9.pdf see pages 10 & 20 or PCOM: data posted here : http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments /2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf see pages 11 and 18 )

Many PCPs are working like dogs and struggling to make 150K/year by comparison.

These schools are frequently IMO taking advantage of the fact that there are more applicants than slots in medical school in order to gouge students.
If this is too negative for you so be it. However, I have talked to numerous colleagues who agree.

These schools are taking advantage of the student loan programs to make a killing. If student loans were severely limited then guess how much less medical schools would be able to charge and guess how quick the proliferation of franchises/branches would stop (Touro can you hear me?)

Many PCP work 4 days a week and make 150K/yr (2 I shadowed). Some physcians work more/make more, some less. You just come of as disgruntled and your point is lost. When will you realize that?
From physicians I have personally talked to most of their student loans are around 1500-3000 per month repayment. When you make 10,000 + a month, I don't see the problem. But then again, I have worked in the real world at 80+ hrs per week for less money (even after taking out the repayment amount). So don't preach to me about hard work and how tough people have it. Try not eating for a couple of days, which since you and your wife are physicians, I doubt that has happened to you.
 
Are you too tunnel visioned to see your posts and that you are in fact attempting (voluntarily or not) to steer premeds away from medicine?
You do realize that you will influence ZERO premeds with your methods right?

I agree, and this is my main beef. PCM, your doomsday attitude and outdated data leads people to immediately dismiss you as an eccentric, and no one takes what good information/advice you are providing seriously. You've become the opposite end of the spectrum of the people are fighting against (ie the people who deny any potential problems to fill seats), and just as it's difficult to validate people who are so blindly positive, it's impossible not to dismiss someone so absurdly negative, doom and gloom, etc.
 
Many PCP work 4 days a week and make 150K/yr (2 I shadowed). Some physcians work more/make more, some less. You just come of as disgruntled and your point is lost. When will you realize that?
From physicians I have personally talked to most of their student loans are around 1500-3000 per month repayment. When you make 10,000 + a month, I don't see the problem. But then again, I have worked in the real world at 80+ hrs per week for less money (even after taking out the repayment amount). So don't preach to me about hard work and how tough people have it. Try not eating for a couple of days, which since you and your wife are physicians, I doubt that has happened to you.

150k at four days a week is actually pretty sweet.
 
150k at four days a week is actually pretty sweet.
My sons pediatrician (That I have shadowed almost ten 8hr days) works 4 days a week, and leaves at 3:30 many days to go coach soccer. Of all the doctors I have shadowed she is by far the slowest at seeing patients. Yet routinely she deposits 15K each month.
ButI'll forget my actual experience with her and her insight, and follow exPCM's warnings and quit medicine for something that doesn't require as much effort or debt since according to him I'll never repay it or I'll have to work really hard (almost like other professions, man that sounds terrible)
 
My sons pediatrician (That I have shadowed almost ten 8hr days) works 4 days a week, and leaves at 3:30 many days to go coach soccer. Of all the doctors I have shadowed she is by far the slowest at seeing patients. Yet routinely she deposits 15K each month.

Not too shabby.
 
Are you too tunnel visioned to see your posts and that you are in fact attempting (voluntarily or not) to steer premeds away from medicine?
You do realize that you will influence ZERO premeds with your methods right?

Yes I do in fact realize that premeds will still pursue medicine no matter what and that is just great. I am not trying to steer them away.

I am simply trying to post true information about our current medical education system. Here are 5 pieces of advice to med students for starters:
1. Go to an established US allopathic or osteopathic school if possible- being a guinea pig at a new school is riskier and increases the chances of getting a suboptimal education.
2. Go to the cheapest school possible so that you will have the lowest debt possible - as someone who has interviewed and been involved in resident selection the name of the school is much less important than your individual track record at the school.
3. Do not go to any Carribean school - US allopathic and osteopathic enrollments are spiraling upward and residency slots are basically hardly increasing at all by comparison due to the resident cap. Carribean and FMGs will be crowded out and generally not be able to get US residency slots - see the thread in the General Residency section on the coming bloodbath to read more.
4. Board scores are very important for competitive specialties. If you potentially want a ROAD or competitive specialty be wary of schools who have a huge emphasis on activities during the first 2 years that are not geared towards preparing students for the COMLEX Level 1 and USMLE Step 1 board exams. For example on Level 1/Step 1 board exams you will not be physically examining patients. Many competitve residency programs filter out applicants based on their board scores so if you don't have the numbers you are at a big disadvantage : see several threads on SDN regarding ERAS filters.
5. Good luck.

I could add more but I have to go now.
 
WOW!!! BRAVO!!!! See, now that wasn't that hard was it? Posting good,helpful information.
 
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Yes I do in fact realize that premeds will still pursue medicine no matter what and that is just great. I am not trying to steer them away.

I am simply trying to post true information about our current medical education system. Here are 5 pieces of advice to med students for starters:
1. Go to an established US allopathic or osteopathic school if possible- being a guinea pig at a new school is riskier and increases the chances of getting a suboptimal education.
2. Go to the cheapest school possible so that you will have the lowest debt possible - as someone who has interviewed and been involved in resident selection the name of the school is much less important than your individual track record at the school.
3. Do not go to any Carribean school - US allopathic and osteopathic enrollments are spiraling upward and residency slots are basically hardly increasing at all by comparison due to the resident cap. Carribean and FMGs will be crowded out and generally not be able to get US residency slots - see the thread in the General Residency section on the coming bloodbath to read more.
4. Board scores are very important for competitive specialties. If you potentially want a ROAD or competitive specialty be wary of schools who have a huge emphasis on activities during the first 2 years that are not geared towards preparing students for the COMLEX Level 1 and USMLE Step 1 board exams. For example on Level 1/Step 1 board exams you will not be physically examining patients. Many competitve residency programs filter out applicants based on their board scores so if you don't have the numbers you are at a big disadvantage : see several threads on SDN regarding ERAS filters.
5. Good luck.

I could add more but I have to go now.

Awesome. See, seriously this is exactly the advice that helps and I will, no joke, take this to heart. :thumbup:
 
:thumbup: Exactly my feelings. I had a 27 MCAT and did not get any MD interviews... but thanks to osteopathic schools, I get to be a doctor. And hey, no one in my family has ever even gotten an associates, so I couldn't be happier.

On another note, obsession with numbers just frustrates me generally. I have been to multiple universities, 2 that were small un-competitive undergrad schools, and one which was considered "competitive" and ranked on top 50 lists. I got a much better education at the smaller, less-competitive schools because I liked the environment and the teaching philosophy. The larger school "looks" better... but I feel like I'm getting a sub-par education, compared to what I could have had. It's not all numbers; it's about you, your choices, and your preferences.
amen
My MCAT score (which was fine) or the MCAT score of your neurosurgeon is not the barometer of competency. There are many other factors. I do not recall ever seeing a patient ask a practicing physician what their MCAT score was. Very few residency programs ask for MCAT scores. However like I posted previously there is some correlation in general with med school performance. If there was no correlation then the MCAT IMO shoud be completely abolished. There are standardized tests/shelf exams in med school and unfortunately they can matter. Having poor COMLEX/USMLE scores for example is not a winning formula to land an orthopedic surgery residency in general. Your post does not come off as one I would expect from an attending. Do you have a chip on your shoulder due to a poor score on your MCAT?
I am not an attending I am a premed and I have stated that earlier in the thread. I can see how you would have taken my post as I am an attending but i was merely speaking through you. I apologize for my sarcasm, however I feel you are contradicting yourself in a lot of posts. Let me explain. In your most recent post directed to me you have said that there is no correlation with MCAT score and competency, yet later in your post you state that that there is some correlation in med school performance. Don't you need to be competent to do well in anything? I think what your forgetting is effort. The neurosurgeon I shadowed is also very bitter about the application process and he is truly a story to be told. He had a terrible mcat score that made him apply three cycles to finally get into medical school allopathic btw. In medical school he blew up and landed his dream residency of NS. His compensation is not what you would think but this is what he wanted to do. Now, NS is highly competetive from what I hear, which means that he had to have performed exceptionally well in med school. Considering that his mcat score was one of the factors keeping him out and then him landing a competetive residency and SMASHING his board scores this shows me 2 things. 1) the mcat is crap for predicting performance on the boards and 2) the mcat is crap for predicting med school performance. I think what we are all forgetting is that the mcat tests critical thinking and it does not test effort, how hard you are willing to study to learn the material. How hard you are willing to work to get the residency you want and the grades needed. If you want something hard enough you will get it. As for my mcat scores, I haven't taken them yet, so I will let you know in march. I think people not just you pcm underestimate a student waking up and buckeling down. Just look at Dr Kurby, the DO dermatologist from KCUMB that periodically shows up on Dr 90210. There are tons of posts on sdn stating is it impossible for DO's to attain competetive specialties, clearly this guy did and others have. I bet his mcat score wasn't all that great because KCOMB's average is a 24.4 but he must have kicked but in med school to score DERM. and for the record I am not into derm at all just using it to prove a point. Sorry for the long read. Your previous post was helpfull btw.
This is another assumption - there are positives and negatives in medicine - however I think pre-med/med students receive only positive spin from many schools (eg. don't worry about paying back those 300K in loans because doctors all make big money, etc.). I think it is important to hear some of the negatives.
There is a big difference between taking in money to meet operating costs and gouging medical students with sky high tuitions to pay sky high salaries (example IMO LECOM: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/251/698/2008-251698677-04b8ac70-9.pdf see pages 10 & 20 or PCOM: data posted here : http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments /2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf see pages 11 and 18 )

Many PCPs are working like dogs and struggling to make 150K/year by comparison.

These schools are frequently IMO taking advantage of the fact that there are more applicants than slots in medical school in order to gouge students.
If this is too negative for you so be it. However, I have talked to numerous colleagues who agree.

These schools are taking advantage of the student loan programs to make a killing. If student loans were severely limited then guess how much less medical schools would be able to charge and guess how quick the proliferation of franchises/branches would stop (Touro can you hear me?)
You are also assuming that premeds are bieng negligent and not looking at the negatives to medicine and just going with it anyways. Which I bet there may be a few but not all are. There are people who have worked in the real world like just one and who are struggling. My Significant other is currently supporting me while I am applying and has been for the last year while I finish retaking my prereq's. Does it suck shopping at the dollar store for your common household products and condiments? yes but bieng a doctor is my ultimate goal and I acknowledge the fact that its going to be YEARS until I can live the way I want to live and be able to pay off all my debt. Maybe 10 - 20 years and although it might be as bad as your making it sound, I will have to face it on my own and not be one of those terrible doctors who has a humongous chip on his shoulder because his friend went to business school and gets to drive a benz while he is stilil paying 3k a month and hates waking up and going to work because of it and is driving some old beat down POS honda. Just please don't think we are naive little premeds. We can surface over to the med student, resident and attending rooms and read about REAL problems doctors/residents and med students are having. We are open to the resources we can do all this research ourselves. Any intelligent premed that knows what he is getting himself into would. So if there is a thread started about mcat correlation or loan repayment or how to choose a reputable allopathic or osteopathic school please chime in because starting threads like this does come off as flaming. again I iapologize if I was bieng rude, but I did really feel that when you started this thread that you were bashing osteopathic programs and have felt so in a number of your previous posts. Ok its late and I am tired so please excuse any typing errors and take this smily as peace:)
WOW!!! BRAVO!!!! See, now that wasn't that hard was it? Posting good,helpful information.
true, maybe theres a change.
 
Yes I do in fact realize that premeds will still pursue medicine no matter what and that is just great. I am not trying to steer them away.

I am simply trying to post true information about our current medical education system. Here are 5 pieces of advice to med students for starters:
1. Go to an established US allopathic or osteopathic school if possible- being a guinea pig at a new school is riskier and increases the chances of getting a suboptimal education.
2. Go to the cheapest school possible so that you will have the lowest debt possible - as someone who has interviewed and been involved in resident selection the name of the school is much less important than your individual track record at the school.
3. Do not go to any Carribean school - US allopathic and osteopathic enrollments are spiraling upward and residency slots are basically hardly increasing at all by comparison due to the resident cap. Carribean and FMGs will be crowded out and generally not be able to get US residency slots - see the thread in the General Residency section on the coming bloodbath to read more.
4. Board scores are very important for competitive specialties. If you potentially want a ROAD or competitive specialty be wary of schools who have a huge emphasis on activities during the first 2 years that are not geared towards preparing students for the COMLEX Level 1 and USMLE Step 1 board exams. For example on Level 1/Step 1 board exams you will not be physically examining patients. Many competitve residency programs filter out applicants based on their board scores so if you don't have the numbers you are at a big disadvantage : see several threads on SDN regarding ERAS filters.
5. Good luck.

I could add more but I have to go now.

I really like this post.

Going back to the MCAT data, I noticed the following cMCAT data

2004 24.60
2005 24.99
2006 25.31
2007 25.58

Soon, the 2009 data will be available, but probably not reported until another couple years. 2004 to 2006 recorded an increase in average for the MCAT of .71. If this increase happens again, the 2009 average could be on the order of 26.28. If some schools are reporting averages of 27 and 28, then (as ex said), it can be inferred that other schools are posting averages of 24 and 25, which is on par with, or slightly lower than the average of the previous years.
 
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Ok - I am not here to steer anyone in any direction. My goal is to provide facts and some analysis. Students will set their own course. I consider osteopathic physicians equivalent to allopathic physicians and most physicians I know who came from DO schools actually do very little OMT in their post medical school practice..
However as far as the education system goes there are some schools that show more concern with $ than education and you will not hear that at their admission offices.
What makes you say I am trying to steer students to or away from osteopathic medicine as that is not my goal at all. You must follow your own course with decisions you make that are hopefully based on accurate information.

Forgive me, I misspoke. My interpretation of your posts here leads me to believe that you have serious problems with osteopathic medical education and would like to steer students away from it. That's sad, because as an attending, you have a unique position, here and elsewhere to be a true leader and offer counsel to pre-meds to help them make informed decisions. I think you are trying to do that here, but as has been discussed previously, your approach could be improved upon.

Yes I do in fact realize that premeds will still pursue medicine no matter what and that is just great. I am not trying to steer them away.

I am simply trying to post true information about our current medical education system. Here are 5 pieces of advice to med students for starters:
1. Go to an established US allopathic or osteopathic school if possible- being a guinea pig at a new school is riskier and increases the chances of getting a suboptimal education.
2. Go to the cheapest school possible so that you will have the lowest debt possible - as someone who has interviewed and been involved in resident selection the name of the school is much less important than your individual track record at the school.
3. Do not go to any Carribean school - US allopathic and osteopathic enrollments are spiraling upward and residency slots are basically hardly increasing at all by comparison due to the resident cap. Carribean and FMGs will be crowded out and generally not be able to get US residency slots - see the thread in the General Residency section on the coming bloodbath to read more.
4. Board scores are very important for competitive specialties. If you potentially want a ROAD or competitive specialty be wary of schools who have a huge emphasis on activities during the first 2 years that are not geared towards preparing students for the COMLEX Level 1 and USMLE Step 1 board exams. For example on Level 1/Step 1 board exams you will not be physically examining patients. Many competitve residency programs filter out applicants based on their board scores so if you don't have the numbers you are at a big disadvantage : see several threads on SDN regarding ERAS filters.
5. Good luck.

I could add more but I have to go now.
Great post! More of these please. You are in a position nearly everyone on this board would love to achieve and you have the opportunity to help them out, if you so choose. More posts like this (especially with the level of detail and citation you've offered in other posts) will go a long way towards that. Thanks for the info!
 
I really like this post.

Going back to the MCAT data, I noticed the following cMCAT data

2004 24.60
2005 24.99
2006 25.31
2007 25.58

Soon, the 2009 data will be available, but probably not reported until another couple years. 2004 to 2006 recorded an increase in average for the MCAT of .71. If this increase happens again, the 2009 average could be on the order of 26.28. If some schools are reporting averages of 27 and 28, then (as ex said), it can be inferred that other schools are posting averages of 24 and 25, which is on par with, or slightly lower than the average of the previous years.

The trend appears to be on the upswing. There are a ton of reasons why this may be, but none-the-less it should help to dispel many of the presumptions about D.O. students and graduates alike.
 
Yes, I see your point. Better to not have any attendings post here. There is no way any attending can know as much as the typical pre-med student after all. How foolish of me not to figure out that attendings are incapable of giving any advice or express any views that are of any value.

I appreciate any advice, especially from those that have been there before me. However, you provided no advice, no viewpoint or anything of real value in your OP. You made an inflammatory statement which seemed to have no apparent purpose other than to rile up the people in the pre-osteo forum. I just figured that as an "attending" you would have better things to do (work, spend time with family and friends, relax etc.) then start a flame war amongst pre-meds.
 
I appreciate any advice, especially from those that have been there before me. However, you provided no advice, no viewpoint or anything of real value in your OP. You made an inflammatory statement which seemed to have no apparent purpose other than to rile up the people in the pre-osteo forum. I just figured that as an "attending" you would have better things to do (work, spend time with family and friends, relax etc.) then start a flame war amongst pre-meds.

If you get inflamed, upset, angry, etc. over every comment you dislike you should probably not go into medicine. Physicians need to be able to remain calm and cool with difficult patients and under difficult circumstances (long hours with no sleep, 80 hour weeks, etc.). Nothing I said in the original post should have gotten you so riled up. If you can't handle heat please seek another profession.
 
If you get inflamed, upset, angry, etc. over every comment you dislike you should probably not go into medicine. Physicians need to be able to remain calm and cool with difficult patients and under difficult circumstances (long hours with no sleep, 80 hour weeks, etc.). Nothing I said in the original post should have gotten you so riled up. If you can't handle heat please seek another profession.

Either you don't get it (which I think is not the case) or you are very pathetic, coming on an Internet forum and treating people that were once in your shoes (if you are in fact are an attending, which sometimes I really wonder) this way. And by this way I mean starting pointless threads and then criticizing people that call you on it. Grow up!

Edit for the mods: warn me, ban me, I don't care, but somebody needs to stick up for the people that actually use this forum for what it is intended against people like exPCM
 
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Either you don't get it (which I think is not the case) or you are very pathetic, coming on an Internet forum and treating people that were once in your shoes (if you are in fact are an attending, which sometimes I really wonder) this way. And by this way I mean starting pointless threads and then criticizing people that call you on it. Grow up!

Edit for the mods: warn me, ban me, I don't care, but somebody needs to stick up for the people that actually use this forum for what it is intended against people like exPCM

I see another pre-med here with a short fuse. Here's the deal - I come here with facts to inform those undergoing this difficult process (the facts being the real MCAT score data) and then I ended up being attacked in ridiculous fashion such as your post. If you want to communicate then fine, but if you expect others to respect you then you should show respect to them as well. If you look carefully I have only responded in kind to those who chose to snipe at me first on the thread. Did you get hit by a tumbleweed recently or are you just having a bad day?
This thread seemed to be winding down until you and this Smitty decide to come here today and flame.
 
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http://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm

see also: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
Overall latest mean is 25.5 for admitted students.
Should I expect to see posters from every school saying that their school has higher numbers than the mean MCAT (which is a mathematical impossibility) just like almost every school is above the mean per the thread on the COMLEX pass rates?

No sir, you did not come here to present the facts. You started a pointless thread with this post aimed at sdn members... Period! The sdn pre med community would be better served if you limited your posts to medical students.

Since many of your posts point out the negatives of medicine and warn premeds, maybe you should of picked a different profession

BTW, I never once asked for your respect, I dont need it from trolls. And the poster today did not flame you, just pointed out that your post serves no point (which seems to be a trend). You attacked him/her

exPCM, I have wasted too much of my time replying to you, this will be my last on any thread.
 
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No sir, you did not come here to present the facts. You started a pointless thread with this post aimed at sdn members... Period! The sdn pre med community would be better served if you limited your posts to medical students.

Since many of your posts point out the negatives of medicine and warn premeds, maybe you should of picked a different profession

BTW, I never once asked for your respect, I dont need it from trolls. And the poster today did not flame you, just pointed out that your post serves no point (which seems to be a trend). You attacked him/her

I will stand up my body of posts on SDN against your body of posts and if there is anyone who almost never posts anything useful it is you. Your posts consist generally of opinions and anecdoted without any facts.

This post here tells me a lot:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9010991#post9010991

IMO we have a nontraditional older student who is likely to have a lot of problems taking orders from a 26-27 year old resident when they are a very much older intern or med student. This is the big problem with many non-traditionals, they think they should be deferred to based on age. Your place in medicine is based on your knowledge and educational level and not your age.
 
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exPCM,

I am not sure why you have gotten all of this flack. I think people are acting a little too thin-skinned around here. I have been surprised at the rudeness and apparent hurt feelings of regular SDN posters. Nobody needs to gang up on this guy; it is about ideas.

haberdash1
 
My sons pediatrician (That I have shadowed almost ten 8hr days) works 4 days a week, and leaves at 3:30 many days to go coach soccer. Of all the doctors I have shadowed she is by far the slowest at seeing patients. Yet routinely she deposits 15K each month.
ButI'll forget my actual experience with her and her insight, and follow exPCM's warnings and quit medicine for something that doesn't require as much effort or debt since according to him I'll never repay it or I'll have to work really hard (almost like other professions, man that sounds terrible)

How much of that $15k goes to expenses, though. I live in your state and know pcp's there -- I don't know any who are making $180k/year working 4 days a week, especially not in peds. Sure, you might make $120k or even $150k if you work full time just in a clinic. Not to say that you can't do decently as a pcp, but don't expect to do that well working parttime in peds in Oklahoma or anywhere else for that matter.
 
exPCM,

I am not sure why you have gotten all of this flack. I think people are acting a little too thin-skinned around here. I have been surprised at the rudeness and apparent hurt feelings of regular SDN posters. Nobody needs to gang up on this guy; it is about ideas.

haberdash1

Thanks for the post.
FYI here is some more newer data:
ScreenHunter_07Jan032044.gif

ScreenHunter_08Jan032045.gif


P.S. Notice the graph above which clearly states that AACOM has had the names of all matriculants since 2006 and since AACOM also handles the applications through AACOMAS I think it is a safe bet the data is accurate.
 
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exPCM,

I am not sure why you have gotten all of this flack. I think people are acting a little too thin-skinned around here. I have been surprised at the rudeness and apparent hurt feelings of regular SDN posters. Nobody needs to gang up on this guy; it is about ideas.

haberdash1

"post history"
 
Thanks for the post.
FYI here is some more newer data:
ScreenHunter_07Jan032044.gif

ScreenHunter_08Jan032045.gif

Based on the old, 08 data, I really think me yelling '3.5/27-28' (now) until I'm blue in the face is valid.
 
Based on the old, 08 data, I really think me yelling '3.5/27-28' (now) until I'm blue in the face is valid.

Close but - you need to change your yell to 3.5/26.
Please stop yelling however if your face turns blue - it could be an indicator of cyanosis.
 
Close but - you need to change your yell to 3.5/26.

Why, because it says 26.12 in 2008? Assuming the same trend from 07-08 (which I shouldn't because everything seems to be expanding in a non-linear fashion and the numeric difference between the 07 -> 08 data was greater than that of the 06 -> 07 data), then 09 MCAT would be a 26.7 (aka, 27), and the 10 data (those getting geared up to apply right now), would be well into 27+, pushing into 28 category. Plus, the GPA will be well over a 3.5. Also, this is being quite conservative.
 
Please stop yelling however if your face turns blue - it could be an indicator of cyanosis.

You're a pathologist, right??? I hope I'm not getting any medical exams done by you for a LONG time. Hahahaha ... kidding.
 
Why, because it says 26.12 in 2008? Assuming the same trend from 07-08 (which I shouldn't because everything seems to be expanding in a non-linear fashion and the numeric difference between the 07 -> 08 data was greater than that of the 06 -> 07 data), then 09 MCAT would be a 26.7 (aka, 27), and the 10 data (those getting geared up to apply right now), would be well into 27+, pushing into 28 category. Plus, the GPA will be well over a 3.5. Also, this is being quite conservative.
You never give up. By the way you also need to get a non-smoking avatar if you want to be a physician.
ScreenHunter_03Jan010129.gif

From 24.98 in 2000 to 26.12 in 2008 is an average increase of 0.13 per year. Since 2008 there have been multiple new schools and enrollment expansions which will apply braking pressure on the numbers. My bet for 2009 is 26.2 and for 2010 26.3.
Why don't you place your bet here right now and in a few months we can see who was a better trend analyst?
You're a pathologist, right??? I hope I'm not getting any medical exams done by you for a LONG time. Hahahaha ... kidding.
I hope not either. You are much too young to die and I think Congress is also passing a new law that death will not be a valid excuse for not repaying student loans.
 
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You never give up. By the way you also need to get a non-smoking avatar if you want to be a physician.

This comment really makes it hard for me to even argue with you on any adult level whatsoever. You mine as well get a non-Skynet, T-800, human killing machine avatar, because you are a physician and robots murder resistance leaders??? Ugh.

From 24.98 in 2000 to 26.12 in 2008 is an average increase of 0.13 per year. Since 2008 there have been multiple new schools and enrollment expansions which will apply braking pressure on the numbers. My bet for 2009 is 26.2 and for 2010 26.3.
Why don't you place your bet here right now and in a few months we can see who was a better trend analyst?

A few points ...
i. I have never been a fan of DO averages for a few reasons:

a. Huge expansion of newer schools (which generally have a few classes of lower numbers, and in a sample with only 28ish numbers, 2-3 new schools with lower numbers can make a difference).
b. Some of the older, more established schools just don't put a huge emphasis on numbers. You can say whatever you will about it, or claim that this point is weak, but PCOM is only at a 26 or something. You can't tell me that they couldn't bump their numbers up to 28-30 if they really wanted to? This is different from the allopathic world, and creates more awkward confusion.
c. There seems (in my book) to be a three-tiered DO school system with regards to numbers:

1. Some form of you is older than Flexner or were established soon after (KCOM, PCOM, etc). These schools have amazing match lists, get 3.5k primaries every year, and can select nicely, but still don't have the super high averages. They may not put a huge emphasis on numbers, whatever. However, again, this is a trend and not a rule. DMU has 3.7/27+ 2012 avg.

2. Schools that are oldish, but not too old and seem to put more of an emphasis on numbers. My guess would be that they see this as a better way to establish themselves in the game, whereas KCOM, PCOM, guys don't have to as much. Schools like Western (which probably boasts the highest numbers and has notoriously turned down people with 30+ MCAT) or NOVA (which when I interviewed, they supposedly were not looking at anyone under a 27 and everyone in our interview group claimed to be over this number).

3. Newer schools, branch campuses, et al. Numbers bounce all over the place here. LECOM-B claimed their avg MCAT was a 28, but I know others can't say the same, and are probably generally on the lower end of the spectrum.

... now, in my OPINION, factoring these tiers and complications together paints quite a more complex picture than simply comparing numbers to allopathic schools. Call it a cop out, say it's a moot point, whatever, but it creates variance.

ii. The first point leads me into this point ... schools should be judged on a case by case basis because of my theory. If we are simply talking about GPA/MCAT averages, there are schools that are really high, and quite comparable to average allo numbers (UMDNJ, Western, DMU, etc), there are also those that are quite low. However, if you look at the mid-tier, allopathic schools or the AAMC stated average, schools clock in around 3.5-3.6 and 30-31. I applied to several allopathic schools, and can't count the times I saw 'our averages are on par with AAMC averages' or MCAT scores that added up to 30. Just like the DO world, there are outliers ... such as Harvard or UCSF with 35 average MCAT, but in a sea of 130 something schools, 2-5 higher ones are going to make a lot less difference than 2-5 lower ones in the DO world of 28. This means that the MD averages are much closer to the truer values of any given school, whereas the DO averages tend not to be, and leads me to believe that schools should be judged on a case by case basis. Cherry picking? Maybe, but I outlined above why I think it is a more accurate representation.

Now, I could go on forever about how schools with low MCAT still have students kick ass on USMLE step I, comparable MD matchlists, etc, but I won't because that isn't the point we are debating. I can say from my n = 1 example that I applied with a 30 ++ MCAT and met many others along the interview trail in the same situation. I'm also not going to make a bet with the numbers, but I stick by my assumptions originally stated and my above points can be referenced for any clarification. I can't express how tired I am of these seemingly pointless tirades from you ex ... I never see the point, nor do I ever see up to date data, or any of the 'help and advice' you claim to spread whenever someone calls you out on how absolutely worthless your tantrums are. I'm stating right now that you can feel free to respond to this message and break it down with more sh/itty, old, broad data, or claim your superiority as an attending, but I will not respond. I really hope you will either see what little effect you are having in general and either a. actually try to help or b. you get banned for the constant trolling. Either way, this is our goodbye.
 

This is useful information. It appears as though the 'stats' of D.O. matriculants are approaching those expected of their allopathic counterparts. I'm not certain this points to any particular deficiencies in the applicants either. I see the numbers slightly below the allopathic averages (though I can't tell if the difference is significant as I don't know the "n" for D.O. matriculants and I'm frankly too lazy to do any stats to see if it is different) but they are increasing, to levels that even a few short years ago would be considered competitive for M.D. applicants.

This begs the question, are these two true different populations of students? I doubt it. I would imagine this is analogous to a histogram of mean hemoglobin across all age ranges, sorted by sex. Bimodal with lots of overlap and no significant difference amongst means.

The next question is with numbers increasing across the board (both allopathic and osteopathic matriculants and applicants) is the profession drawing different applicants than it did a decade ago? Or are the same people being forced to work harder? I know that when I applied the first time, a peds orthopod said that he graduated with a 3.4 from undergrad and an MCAT score well below mine and waltzed into a very well respected allopathic program, one that wouldn't sniff him today. Its interesting as the doctors today are working to ensure that residents don't have to work as hard as they did but are placing de facto workload increases on pre-meds. I think that's interesting. The answers to these questions, I don't know, but its interesting to think about.
 
Thanks for the post.
FYI here is some more newer data:
ScreenHunter_07Jan032044.gif

ScreenHunter_08Jan032045.gif


P.S. Notice the graph above which clearly states that AACOM has had the names of all matriculants since 2006 and since AACOM also handles the applications through AACOMAS I think it is a safe bet the data is accurate.

Interestingly, the above data contradicts with the data from http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
for the year 2006
25.11 vs 25.31

From 24.98 in 2000 to 26.12 in 2008 is an average increase of 0.13 per year. Since 2008 there have been multiple new schools and enrollment expansions which will apply braking pressure on the numbers. My bet for 2009 is 26.2 and for 2010 26.3.
Why don't you place your bet here right now and in a few months we can see who was a better trend analyst?

Also, the average increase is .13; however the few years where the average actually went down really throws the average off. Since 2002, only one year has shown an increase as low as .13. The next lowest is a .23, which is close to double the average increase. In fact, the average increase from 2002 - 2008 was 0.25.

You could very well be right about the braking pressure, or perhaps not. The total number of applicants has held steady the last few years, and the number of applicants to aacomas has increased.
 
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Interestingly, the above data contradicts with the data from http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2010/2010cib-p10-13.pdf
for the year 2006
25.11 vs 25.31



Also, the average increase is .13; however the few years where the average actually went down really throws the average off. Since 2002, only one year has shown an increase as low as .13. The next lowest is a .23, which is close to double the average increase. In fact, the average increase from 2002 - 2008 was 0.25.

You could very well be right about the braking pressure, or perhaps not. The total number of applicants has held steady the last few years, and the number of applicants to aacomas has increased.

Good points. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
More about the 2006 discrepancy see: http://www.aacom.org/resources/ome/2009-04/Pages/2008class.aspx
One of the two is probably a typo.

Dude, a human killing machine is what keeps a pathologist in business. Someone's gotta do all those postmortems.

LOL. Sad but true.
 
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Please stop yelling however if your face turns blue - it could be an indicator of cyanosis.

A) You're making it very difficult to believe you're an attending. Real attendings don't troll or intimately concern themselves with pre-med statistics as you have, nor would a graduate of any residency make the above comment to try to prove some level of medical knowledge. But anyway...

B) The numbers for DO schools are relatively low. As I've said before (and gotten quite a bit of flack for it), I feel that some DO schools accept subpar applicants. No, the MCAT doesn't make you a good or bad doctor, but it does speak numbers about basic memorization and analytical reasoning at the premed level which I believe carries over to the medical school, residency, and attending level. Save all your stories about the kid who got a 22 on the MCAT but 99's on the USMLE/COMLEX, nor do I care that you and all your friends got 30+ on the MCAT and chose DO. Those are outliers. People wonder why DO students as a whole perform relatively poorly on the USMLE and I believe this to be the reason. My DO school taught the same exact classes as MD schools including biochem, genetics, and biostats, so the whole "our school doesn't teach to the USMLE" doesn't hold water. I'm sick of reading posts with pre-meds asking what their chances are with a 24 on the MCAT. Last I heard, 24 is the average score for everyone taking it. I don't want an average person being my doctor.

Increasing the academic standards for acceptance to DO schools should be one of the more important plans in the near future (I'm glad people finally dropped the whole degree change garbage). Unfortunately it's difficult to do that with a new school popping up every month. It seems to me the AOA is more concerned with $$ than they are with quality of applicants, students, and education. Not only must the number of schools be capped, but the number of seats per class must be capped as well.

Flame away.

(disclaimer: I'm a DO)
 
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A) You're making it very difficult to believe you're an attending. Real attendings don't troll or intimately concern themselves with pre-med statistics as you have, nor would a graduate of any residency make the above comment to try to prove some level of medical knowledge. But anyway...

B) The numbers for DO schools are relatively low. As I've said before (and gotten quite a bit of flack for it), I feel that some DO schools accept subpar applicants. No, the MCAT doesn't make you a good or bad doctor, but it does speak numbers about basic memorization and analytical reasoning at the premed level which I believe carries over to the medical school, residency, and attending level. Save all your stories about the kid who got a 22 on the MCAT but 99's on the USMLE/COMLEX, nor do I care that you and all your friends got 30+ on the MCAT and chose DO. Those are outliers. People wonder why DO students as a whole perform relatively poorly on the USMLE and I believe this to be the reason. My DO school taught the same exact classes as MD schools including biochem, genetics, and biostats, so the whole "our school doesn't teach to the USMLE" doesn't hold water. I'm sick of reading posts with pre-meds asking what their chances are with a 24 on the MCAT. Last I heard, 24 is the average score for everyone taking it. I don't want an average person being my doctor.

Increasing the academic standards for acceptance to DO schools should be one of the more important plans in the near future (I'm glad people finally dropped the whole degree change garbage). Unfortunately it's difficult to do that with a new school popping up every month. It seems to me the AOA is more concerned with $$ than they are with quality of applicants, students, and education. Not only must the number of schools be capped, but the number of seats per class must be capped as well.

Flame away.

(disclaimer: I'm a DO)

Over the last 3 year period published (2005-2007) how many students with MCAT scores less than 24 were accepted to allopathic schools?
A. <500
B. 500-1000
C. 1001-1500
D. 1501-2500
E. >2500
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm
The answer is E (>2500).
If you add in the range of 24-26 the number is >8000.
Yet you come here and post that no one with an MCAT of 24 should be a doctor. The flack that you said you have received is well deserved.
What do you think the average PA, NP, or CRNA would score on the MCAT if they prepared for it?
There are thousands of people out there successfully treating patients who have not scored more than 24 on the MCAT.
There is some correlation with performance in medical school and MCAT score but there are many exceptions.
So your plan to not accept anyone with a score of 24 or lower should not and will not happen.
Now some of the lower scorers will wash out in med school or on the boards but I have also seen higher scorers wash out.
I do agree with you that there is a limit and that the AOA is too concerned with money. However my biggest concern is that the rapid expansion of med schools is occurring in the face of a very slowly increasing number of residency slots which means we are going to see students forced to go into primary care who don't want to be there. A better solution IMO to increasing primary care is to improve the reimbursement and working conditions of primary care doctors and not to churn out so many med students that they have no other options.
 
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My DO school taught the same exact classes as MD schools including biochem, genetics, and biostats, so the whole "our school doesn't teach to the USMLE" doesn't hold water. I'm sick of reading posts with pre-meds asking what their chances are with a 24 on the MCAT. Last I heard, 24 is the average score for everyone taking it. I don't want an average person being my doctor.

Many DO schools DON'T teach Biostats and from the research I've done, a few don't even teach biochem or genetics that extensively. Your experience isn't everyone's.

Also, I think you're rather dismissive of a 24 MCAT. Is it low? Yes, absolutely it is. But your whole "I don't want someone average being my doctor" nonsense is foolish. Just because it's the national average doesn't mean that the person with that score is average among the whole population. Who takes the MCAT? Is it not some of the brightest undergrads in the nation? It isn't like the guy who flunked out of 7th grade is sitting for the exam. Average among pre-meds isn't the same as average in the general population. That's an important distinction. And if you think people who get 24's don't become MD's, you're crazy. There's a guy who was right here on pre-osteo last year who got an allo acceptance with a 25 MCAT right after being rejected by an osteo school.
 
Lol. In that case, MCAT retakes should not be allowed. What do you think many of the allopathic doctors and students pulled on the MCAT the first time around? :laugh:

You should do yourself a favor and avoid all current doctors just to be safe. It wasn't that long ago that well established allopathic schools accepted students with a 24. Even Drexel currently has a student with a 22.
lol CORRECT plus you guys are putting WAY to much emphasis on the MCAT. it does not correlate tohow good of a doctor youll be. j1515 what a sad post for you my friend. there are many allopaths that are practicing who have had that mcat score, there will be 500/year according to expcm with an mcat score like that into allopathic schools.
 
Many DO schools DON'T teach Biostats and from the research I've done, a few don't even teach biochem or genetics that extensively. Your experience isn't everyone's.

Everyone says "many" medical schools don't teach biostats. I would like to see a list of these many schools. Furthermore, the biostats on the USMLE consists of 2-3 pages in First aid, so this is no excuse. And I find it hard to believe that a medical school doesn't teach biochem and genetics in this day and age. The ones I know of do, but again, I would like a list of those that don't.


Also, I think you're rather dismissive of a 24 MCAT. Is it low? Yes, absolutely it is. But your whole "I don't want someone average being my doctor" nonsense is foolish. Just because it's the national average doesn't mean that the person with that score is average among the whole population. Who takes the MCAT? Is it not some of the brightest undergrads in the nation? It isn't like the guy who flunked out of 7th grade is sitting for the exam. Average among pre-meds isn't the same as average in the general population. That's an important distinction. And if you think people who get 24's don't become MD's, you're crazy. There's a guy who was right here on pre-osteo last year who got an allo acceptance with a 25 MCAT right after being rejected by an osteo school.

First off, to answer your question of who takes the MCAT, the answer is anyone. There were people at my undergrad who had B's and C's in their prereqs and sat for the MCAT. My point isn't that anybody who scores below a 24 shouldn't be a doctor. My point is that they should be able to do better. Maybe they don't have the money to retake it, maybe they don't have the time due to family committments. But this isn't the majority that you hear of. It's almost always the premed who took it once and doesn't want to take it again, and wants to know if DO schools will accept him with his stats. And I understand there are outliers in acceptance rates especially in the MD world which seems to be the gold standard. I'm just upset with peoples' acceptance of mediocrity in the DO world. The whole "it's just one test" or "I'm a bad test taker" doesn't fly with me. I feel that if MDs are able to do it, so should DOs.
 
there are many allopaths that are practicing who have had that mcat score, .

Relatively speaking, no there aren't. The majority of allopaths practicing scored <well> above a 24 on the MCAT. There are of course outliers, which I have mentioned.

Over the last 3 year period published (2005-2007) how many students with MCAT scores less than 24 were accepted to allopathic schools?
A. <500
B. 500-1000
C. 1001-1500
D. 1501-2500
E. >2500
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm
The answer is E (>2500).

Out of nearly 115,000 applicants. That's quite a small minority (2%).
 
Relatively speaking, no there aren't. The majority of allopaths practicing scored <well> above a 24 on the MCAT. There are of course outliers, which I have mentioned.



Out of nearly 115,000 applicants. That's quite a small minority (2%).

But only about 40% of the applicants matriculated, is where this 2500 resides. That %age now becomes ~5%.
 
... are you serious? This isn't a contest of who has the biggest dick. Higher MCAT does not equal better doctor. How many people are applying to these DO schools? And you really think that they need to accept people with lower stats?
there you go elftown, work the body work the body UGH!.

ps my dick is so small it looks like a vagina
 
... are you serious? This isn't a contest of who has the biggest dick. Higher MCAT does not equal better doctor. How many people are applying to these DO schools? And you really think that they need to accept people with lower stats?


DO schools don't need to accept people with lower stats. They accept the highest stats from their applicant pools. It's just that those students who are accepted to DO schools with 3.6+ gpas and 30+ mcat scores also get into MD schools and choose to attend them over the DO schools. The DO school stats will rise, and have been rising over the years simply because MD stats have been rising. With new MD schools opening up, the average stats for matriculants into MD schools will likely plateau and I'll bet there won't be much improvement seen in DO stats either because of this.
 
... are you serious? This isn't a contest of who has the biggest dick. Higher MCAT does not equal better doctor. How many people are applying to these DO schools? And you really think that they need to accept people with lower stats?

I'm dead serious. A pre-med blurting out the obvious statement with authority "higher MCAT does not equal better doctor" means nothing to me, although I generally agree. I do believe the MCAT to have a general correlation with the USMLE and specialty boards, and these tests all together do = a knowledgeable doctor in my book. You will see the stress you go through once you begin medical school, from wondering whether or not you should take the USMLE during your 2nd and 3rd years, to wondering why Columbia won't even allow you to rotate or interview for a residency position at their hospital. If you want this nonsensical jumping through hoops to end, then yes, you need to perform overall as well as MD students. This includes MCATs, USMLE, and whatever else you can think of. Stop with the "one test doesn't dictate whether or not I'm a good doctor" garbage. Nobody wants to hear excuses.

Lastly, yes, I do believe DO schools more or less have to accept people with lower stats, as the majority of people use DO as a backup (excluding anecdotal evidence of you or your friend who got a 40 on the MCAT and chose a DO school). I don't agree with it, hence why I think they need to raise the average GPA/MCAT for accepted students which can be done by capping the class sizes and stopping expansion.
 
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