Pharmaceutical Industry 101

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Industrypharmcy,

Which one is a better route for industrial pharmacy:

combined PharmD/PhD

PharmD + residency/fellowship in industrial pharmacy (how many year?)

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It cost around $50,000 more to go to the local private school that has the combined program. Is it worth it to get both? It might be early to ask but I have to decide which school I going to next week.

It very much depends on what you would like to do. If your ultimate goal is research, then combined PharmD/PhD would be a better option. It would be extremely difficult to advance your career on the research side with PharmD alone.

For anything else, be it working on the medical side (medical communication, safety, as an MSL, etc.) or commercial side (marketing, market research, etc.) a PhD would not benefit you. I would rather suggest a fellowship in the area of your interest (they last one or two years, and you do get a decent stipend - I think they average between $40,000 and $60,000).

I think that going to a private school for the combined program at a significant added cost to you would not be beneficial unless you definitely knew that you want to be a researcher, and a researcher in a particular area. To get the full benefit of a PhD program you really need to have an idea about what you want to research, what would be the topic of your dissertation. I would rather go for a PharmD now, and then if you need a PhD later to achieve your goals, you can always obtain it later. There are even part-time PhD programs out there for people who are already employed in their area of interest, and generally if you are employed within a pharmaceutical industry, your education which is related to your job, even marginally, is either completely covered or at least 50% covered.

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MarchIoda said:
In response to my question: "Does anyone know what type of residency would make a PharmD applicant desirable for a medical science liaison position?"
You replied: "If you have an interest in a specific therapeutic area, do a specialty residency and become certified in that area, that will be the best bet."
I am wondering what therapetic areas are "hot" right now and need MSL support. I'm also wondering if formulary management in managed care is particulary helpful for this role.
It depends on the company, every company has its select core areas for which they need MSL support. Overall, oncology, diabetes, CNS seem to be popular right now, but it is hard to say what it will be like in five years or so, when you would be ready to join the MSL workforce. It's better to follow your interest so you do not end up having done two years of something you hate without anything to show for that.

Managed care experience is always helpful, though not so much for the MSL role. There are other departments that focus specifically on dealing with the managed care. In large companies, this is not a part of the MSL's job description. In some small start-up it probably is, but they have very, very few MSLs.
 
psurocks said:
if you have a quick second, i was wondering whats the best route for MSL in your opinon:

pharmd+ 3 yr retail experience + mba

or

pharmd + industrial fellowship

Depends on the company. Generally, retail experience and MBA are NOT the best way to obtain an MSL position. It is a medical position, not commercial, and they do want specialization and clinical expertise. The best way would be

PharmD + clinical residency + 2 or more years of work experience, and board certification wouldn't hurt either.

If that's not something you want, a fellowship in something like outcomes research, medical affairs or medical communication would be useful. However, I wouln't count on that as a guarantee that you would get an MSL position right out of the fellowship. Still may have to put in a couple years as an in-house med comm person... again, depends on the company and the therapeutic area - some are a lot more lenient than others.
 
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Would a Drug Information residency such as this one would be helpful in pursuing a career in pharmaceutical industry?

Any other residencies would be beneficial for this approach?
Well, it could help you get a position in medical communications/drug information area of a pharmaceutical company. However, drug information as practiced in a hospital is quite a bit different from that in a pharma company, I have been told by people who have done both. If you are interested in a career in pharmaceutical industry and specifically in drug information, there is a number of pharma-based drug information residencies. I believe Eli Lilly has one under their Visiting Scientist program, AstraZeneca and/or GlaxoSmithKline used to have one, and one of the Johnson and Johnson companies has a drug info residency through Thomas Jefferson school of pharmacy...

I would say that with the hiring freezes becoming very, very common in pharma, your best bet would be to go through a pharma residency or fellowship, otherwise be prepared to work elsewhere for five years or so to get a fair chance to get in. Pharmalot is quite an interesting publication, and by their tally some 70,000 jobs have been lost in US pharmaceutical industry in 2008, and more cuts are coming. Think about it when evaluating your options... there are many ways to get to the same goal, but some take longer than others.
 
Originally Posted by fewaopi
I read through alot of your posts and you don't mention much about pharmds doing research in industry. Is it required to have a phd? and do most pharmacists avoid research?

The main reason I don't write about it is because my knowledge of the research side of industry is very limited and I don't want to inadvertently mislead anybody. PhD is generally required if you want a career (i.e. to rise through the ranks, be the head of your own lab, etc.) on the bench science side. PharmD alone simply doesn't prepare you well to handle this kind of work, and though the years of experience can substitute, you would never have as much weight as a PhD in getting management to subscribe to your projects. PharmDs in pharmaceutical research tend to be more on the clinical research side of things, either working directly with patients involved in Phase I through Phase IV trials (are you familiar at all with the stages of drug development? I am not sure how much you know at the point where you are in your professional development) or in project management, protocol writing, etc.

Whether a lot of pharmacists go into research... I wouldn't say so. Largest areas within industry where pharmacists go would be the medical communication/medical affairs area. It is most suited to the skills we are taught in pharmacy school, and the most natural fit. However, there are plenty of other options. There are pharmacists in marketing, competitive intelligence, regulatory, analytics, research, etc. It's all about striking the balance between what you want - and what's available.

I am also interested in any internship opportunities or any opportunity to learn about pharmaceutical industry work. I understand from the links you posted on summer internships, many if not all accepted only juniors or above.

Yes, the thread is geared towards pharmacy students, and most pharmacy-specific internships require that you be at least P2 (which, I guess, is fourth year of the 0-6 program). You simply don't know enough until then to either get the full value of out of participating in the program or, frankly, to be useful.

Is there anything at all for freshman interested in industry? I was perhaps thinking of doing research in pharmacoeconomics with a professor, but I would also like to explore other avenues of research. Should I follow the path I'm more interested in or more helpful?

If you are on the East Coast, there may be internships/co-ops available through your school with one of the pharmaceutical companies. Whether any of them are actually in pharmacoeconomics, I am not sure (and would you even have adequate background to do any kind of work on your own after just one year of general college? internships require more knowledge on your part than working with a professor on a project - I think it is a better option. I started working with my professor on a project, which taught me mainly that I DO NOT enjoy research. But some other good skills also.). I know that my company has co-op programs in logistics, finance, IT and some other areas... and they take students as young as sophomores... but again, in a 0-6 program, I doubt you would have something like that. These programs are usually done by regular undergraduate universities.

I would suggest that for the first two years, which are essentially pre-pharmacy, you take a good look around, learn more about your interests, likes and dislikes, and what opportunities out there match them the closest. Then by the time you are eligible for all the programs, you will have a good idea of which one you want and why, and be able to get the most value out of doing one.

I'm also curious about job stability for pharmacists in industry. It seems like it's alot more competitive because there isn't a shortage and many people's jobs have been cut. This is something I'm slightly worried about, but not enough to prevent me from pursuing something I enjoy. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the job security compared to retail.

Basically, it all comes down to a) doing good job and b) being in the right place at the right time (i.e. luck) regardless of which setting you are in. Yes, there are job cuts, and any of us could loose our jobs at any time, but it's more interesting, and more comfortable work environment than being in retail or hospital. And there is a wider array of potential opportunities; after working in a certain position in pharmaceutical industry you may pick up skills that are transferable to other industries, depending on what you do. So I would say it's better - but I am biased. As far as job security in retail, it's a bit overrated. There are some hours being cut now - and it may well go down. I would hate working where I know my job and salary depend solely on the single law which says that a pharmacist must be present whenever a prescription is dispensed. Laws, unfortunately, can change. Also, specific markets may be saturated already... and of course, it's just a lot more pleasant to work where you can sit down, go to the bathroom when you want, and eat a normal hot lunch every day at your leisure...

Take you time now to learn as much as you can about what's out there. You have plenty of time to try different paths and decide what you want to be when you grow up. That's what the final year rotations are really for
 
I was wondering if you could tell me anything about opportunities in Switzerland for a U.S. Pharm.D. graduate?
Yes, there definitely are positions in either research, or regulatory, or some commercial functions. I am not sure about medical communications type positions. They likely prefer local pharmacists for those, and would require knowledge of German and/or French.
Do companies typically want you to work for them in the U.S., before they would try to send you abroad?
That has generally been the experience of the people I know. It is a rather complex subject, and depends on the multitude of factors. For example, are you a citizen of the country you want to go to? Do you have permission to work there? Do you speak the language(s)? Where are the company's headquarters? What type of a position you are interested in? What is your area of expertise? How unique are you (meaning, why would they want to transfer you rather than hire someone local)? Are you a management material, are you worth the investment? And many more.
 
I may be able to answer questions that relate specifically to medical communications (such as medical writing, publishing, websites, etc.)

I think it would be easier for you if you opened your own thread, then you wouldn't have to wait for your posts to be approved by me. However, if you wish to keep it all in one place, welcome. :)
 
ffpickle said:
Applying for industry fellowships, is a resume or CV more appropriate?

Even though I am starting P1 in Fall 2009, I think I have experience relevant to industry, so I'm giving it a shot. It can't hurt to apply.....can it??
Depends, there are industry internships for undergraduate students that you may be eligible for. If you are looking for internships geared towards pharmacy students, your application will go straight to the trash bin as you need to have completed at least two years of pharmacy school for most of those. Technically, you aren't a pharmacy student yet. And with the current economy, the number of internships being offered was cut significantly at my company, and I have a strong sense we aren't the only ones. And there are a lot of students interested in those that are available...

As far as resume or CV - it is your pick. If the internship you are applying for is business (marketing, finance) a resume would be more appropriate. If you are applying for a scientific one (ie research), then CV would be better.
 
Thanks for sharing information. I am wondering if by any chance you have some idea about the job opportunities for a US pharmacist with PhD in immunology?

Well, do you have any idea what you want to do?

The things I can think off the top of my head:
- research at a pharma company that has immunology as one of its core therapeutic areas (after all, isn't PhD about learning to conduct research?)
- being an MSL for a pharma company marketing one o more biologics (products such as antibodies, TNF inhibitors, etc).
- finding a start-up biotech and be anything you can be there - be it head of research, or business development, or whatever
 
First, thanks for this great resource. I have a couple of questions:

1) Is there a particular company program that you are partial to? Is there one that is clearly better than the others?
Thank you for the compliment. I am from Midwest, and I believe there is too little information about pharmaceutical industry out there, and a lot of it is served in a very negative way... so I try to do my part to shed some light on it. :)

In this day and age, make your decisions based on the strength of the company's pipeline. If they have promising products in all phases of development, they are more likely to grow and avoid layoffs. If they have one major drug that's going to go off patent soon and nothing to replace the revenues - well, that's not a place where I would want to be.

As far as the large company vs. small company... I think the general wisdom is, take your first job in a large company, where you will get good training, and structured environment in which to take your first steps (believe me, pharmacy school doesn't prepare one well to function in corporate America... speaking from experience). Once you feel comfortable and ready to take on more responsibility and shoulder more risk - feel free to jump ship to small start-up and hope it becomes the next Amgen or Genentech. :)

2) Do you think that MSL's are something that will be around for a while? Is most of their travel state-to-state (by car) or national (by plane)?
Yes, I think that MSLs are here to stay, but with the sales reps being phased out, who knows how responsibilities of the MSLs could change? And how the regulation of pharmaceutical industry may change... but for now, it is the next big thing.

Travel depends on geography, which depends on a) the number of relevant prescribers in your area and b) the number of the MSLs your company employs. So your territory could be as small as Manhattan or as large as everything west of the Mississippi excluding California. :) Expect most of your travel to occur by car, and overnight stays are definitely going to occur from time to time. Some travel may be by air.

What is the pay like for MSL's?
Largely depends on your qualifications, ie years of clinical experience (base pay) and the company's performance (bonus). Very hard, if not impossible, to get straight out of school. Expect to do at least one year of residency to qualify, likely more. So, if you were a relatively recent grad with a residency and a few years of clinical work, then I would say something around 110-130K base, and some 15-50K bonus.
 
yatzek said:
The last thing I want to do is retail, but If I am forced to do retail, what else could I do during that time to beef up my resume for a future fellowship/residency.
Hard to say... if you are looking specifically for managed care residencies, rather than clinical residencies... One option is to take a class, should your schedule allow - something along either business or public health lines. Another is to try to get involved with more management-oriented work, try to get your head around pricing, reimbursement, all these issues. This may be easier if you work for an independent, rather than a chain. You can try to get involved with your community, such as volunteer at a charity care clinic one day a month or something like that... sometimes that can be a very good experience, as you have to watch the budget/costs, usually have very closed formulary, etc.

I would love to have a career in advertising, marketing, preventive care, policy or anything that looks at the big picture. I am flexible to go anywhere right now.
These are very different things - advertising vs preventive care vs policy. I would say that one of the best things for you is to use that year to decide more exactly what you want to do. One of the things every fellowship (and one managed care residency :D ) are looking for is the person who knows exactly what they want to do, and exactly why they want that postion. Training someone is a big investment... you don't want to feel your efforts were wasted on them if they suddenly change 180 degrees and do something completely different. I suggest that by the time interviews start next winter you be able to answer the following questions quickly, sincerely, and eloquently:
- why this position (ie marketing)?
- what in your past experience prepares you for this position?
- what do you see yourself doing in five years? in ten years?
- what are the most important qualities you can bring to the table? what skills? what knowledge?

At the very least those ones.
 
yatzek said:
thank you for the advice, I will have to choose whether to pursue advertising or preventive care, they are both interesting but as you say, I need to be specific.
And you can always spin your additional interests in a positive way. Such as, "I really, really, really want to do preventive care, but I also find advertising fascinating, and I did this and this project, so I can leverage this experience when promoting our diabetes management program". Also, if it is something unusual, it is easier for the interviewer to remember you.

As of now I am reading my ass off at the amcp website to find out what my interests really are. but great advice, I never thought of thinking of what i want and always thought of what the interviewers might want :)
In other words, tried to play the perennially popular game "BS the interviewer"? :D Interviewers also love to play the game "make interviewee squirm" if they catch the scent of BS. ;) Be honest and sincere in the interview, that's the best advice I can give. You always should pick up subtle hints of what interviewer is looking for, and do your homework (know what the company does, what issues they face, and what you would want to see/hear given those issues), but never try to answer based off those things alone.

If I get an impression that someone is trying to say what they think I want to hear but not necessarily is true for them - then I will dig deeper. And unless there is some substance underneath it - they are a toast. Or I may just decide they aren't worth the effort of extra digging and mentally resign them to the shredder, and ask meaningless questions until our allotted time runs out.
 
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I am thinking about pursuing a dual PharmD/MPH degree. If I focus my MPH on epidemiology or environmental health are there opportunities in the pharmaceutical industry where I could put these skills to use?
There are generally people within the R&D (research and development) group with background in epidemiology, who are involved with planning clinical trials, or with determining which indications have a lot of potential or what therapeutic areas. Also epidemiology background could be useful for working in health outcomes, an area that is expected to grow as the FDA and the managed care organizations and the government all want to see more outcomes data for new drugs. If you also have a solid business/economics background, than pricing could be an option for you if you also have good grasp of epidemiology. Definitely a very useful degree.

I cannot comment on environmental health because I am not familiar with that degree.
 
Wow, what a great thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your industry experience with us.

My future career plan is to get into research. I am graduating next year and am looking at 2-yr fellowships. I'm mainly looking at academic fellowships because that's where I hope to end up one day but I also see industry fellowships that are in clinical research, which sounds pretty interesting. However, the general feeling I get from industry is that they primarily recruit MDs to do research and it's very rare for a PharmD to get a pure research position. I've heard this from several people. How true would you say that is? I've never had clinical research experience in industry so I have no clue what the lifestyle is like. I'm attracted to the academic lifestyle but I'm not sure if I would like working in industry. Can you (or anyone who is familiar) comment on these two career paths (academic vs. clinical research in industry)?
There is definitely a lot of opportunity for pharmacists to be involved with the clinical trials and research. It is true that the lead investigators will always be MDs, as they should be. However, I know plenty of pharmacists who are actually designing trials and writing the protocols, and supervising the trials and the MDs who are actually working on the trials. There is also pleny of opportunity to work directly with the patients, especially on the Phase I trials since they are done usually in-house, and the main goal is to determine drug's pharmacokinetics, which is where pharmacists are the ultimate experts.

If you mean research as in bench science research... then it's neither MD nor PharmD that you want to really get ahead but PhD.

As far as academia vs industry... funny that only yesterday I had that discussion with one of my our interns. There are different advantages and disadvantages to each, you have to go with what fits you best. Academia means having a more relaxed schedule, and long vacations, and opportunity to teach, but also less money. Not only is your salary less, but opportunity for growth is less, plus there is a lot of squabbling within the department around who gets paid to go to a conference, or how many books you can buy, etc. Also, you would be required to bring in grants, and I heard that's a major headache. Within industry, it's easier to get funding to do what you need to do, but your work is generally centered around the company's needs, not your interests. Also salaries are higher and there is a lot of opportunity not only for promotion, but also for exploring other functions, so you don't grow bored with your job and you can switch positions every two to three years if you so desire (or you can stay in the same position for 30 years, that's possible too, though rare). However, in industry be prepared to work long hours, nights, sometimes weekends, and have two weeks of vacation in the beginning. And there is no such thing as a tenure in industry, so you always have to be cognisant of the pending layoffs and try to be in the right place when they hit.
 
Hi, this is a great thread you've started.

I used to be sure that I was going into retail when I graduated, but after working as a tech, I cannot see myself in retail in my 40s/50s. While I may be able to earn ~$150k/yr as starting salary in retail, I will stagnate there. While this stagnation is not a problem, I don't think that I will have the strength to work in retail in my 40s/50s given the way it hurts your feet, back, knees, sanity, etc. Moreover, I don't think retail jobs have the same job security as they used to.
It may be hard to find a job that pays 150K nowadays. In fact, I don't know anyone who made that much over the last couple years. :D There are always a few people who work a lot of overtime in an underserved area, etc. but starting salaries (as in pure salary, bonus, overtime, etc. not included) never really got above 115-120K, as far as I know. And that's a high end, most of the time for the last three years it was around 100K. And yes, retail can get very old very quickly. I have worked retail... I still do a little bit on the side, and while I do like it, every few shifts I get reminded exactly why I chose not to do it full time.

I am looking towards 3 options now for my career after I graduate: clinical pharmacist or working in a pharmaceutical company or working for mail order/online pharmacies.

Those are very different paths, requiring very different sets of skills AND different personality. And pharmaceutical industry has multiple positions that are different from each other a lot more than hospital from retail.

I was wondering how secure a job in a pharmaceutical company is?
Right now? Everyone is laying people off. Some positions are safer than others, though. And there is always a factor of just being in the right place at the right time...

I know that the starting salaries in working for a pharmaceutical company are not that high BUT I also wanted to know how high the salaries can go after say 5 to 10 years working in the same company?
As I keep repeating over and over, but it just doesn't seem to stick with pharmacy students - salary depends on your position! It's not retail where every pharmacist does the same job and gets paid the same amount of money! Your salary would depend on your job function, your company, your qualifications, your performance over those 5 to 10 years, company's performance over those 5 to 10 years, and your negotiation skills. Your starting pay can be anywhere between 85K and 125K and then how high it goes from there depends on no one but yourself.

I know this is an extremely vague question because you could move up the ladder, stay where you are, get an MBA/MHA and go into administration, etc. but could you please shine some more light into how a career at a company would progress, in term of salary?
Again, I must have said it a million times. It is not retail where everyone does the same job and moves along the same ladder. What you do if you work in medical information is extremely different from what you do if you work in marketing, or research, or as an MSL, or in risk management, or quality assurance, etc.

Your question is as abstract as "what color is fruit"? :D

I am thinking about doing a fellowship or residency and then finding a stable/secure job in the tristate area and settling down.
If you are looking for a stable job, work for a government. There you pretty much cannot be fired unless you commit a crime or something like that. Industry jobs are not safety jobs, they are for highly motivated people who want to go off the beaten path and have opportunity to explore multiple fields over the course of their career.

And it is very hard to get a job in pharmaceutical industry straight out of pharmacy school. It may be possible with one of small and desperate upstarts, but any major or mid-size pharma will want either a residency, or a fellowship, or solid work experience, or both postgraduate training and work experience.
 
I think, at least. Things took longer to work out than I expected. In addition, I fell victim to one of the major layoffs to shake pharmaceutical industry in the last few months. So at this time I suppose, I am in a situation not dissimilar to that of many of you - I am figuring out what to do when I grow up, and working retail and going back to school for a master's degree while I am evaluating different options. I am still willing to discuss my industry experience and share any insight. Hopefully, I shall now have a bit more time on my hands and be able to respond to the PMs and the questions posted here.
 
Hope you are not as stressed as you previously suggested in December. I currently work in pharma as well, entry level position, drug info and adverse events specifically. I came out of a retail setting for various reasons and jumped on a pharma opportunity due to my interest in it. Unfortunately the honeymoon phase was short lived and DI/ADE do not really appeal to me. It seems for me that I'm merely a paper pusher and an ADE/complaint messenger. I've traded off retail insurance problems for equally pushy physician/buyer/wholesalers with product issues. I love the work hours, but at the same time the workload is not any better than that of a busy retail pharmacy (I came from one that averaged near 4 digits daily) Anyway, I digress for now...

My sincere question to you is the "inevitable" one...should I give it a longer chance? Perhaps I was hoping for more, given that I took a ~25% paycut. Perhaps I was hoping for a better chance at upward mobility, which unfortunately I do not see at my employer given that individuals with 10-20yrs are still in their same position (and that most of the upper level VPs and directors are engineering, business, or Ph.Ds in chemistry). I thought all these doubts and concerns would go away within a few months, but alas, they are still present in my mind today.
I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to your question... it all depends on what YOU want. Given my current situation, I too find myself wondering why I do not find the retail job appealing - I could have more money than I made, and the job that wouldn't follow me home (in industry, I would get in around 9am and would often still be at work at 7:30, sometimes much later, and would carry my laptop and sometimes a full bag of papers home on the weekends).

There are many different opportunities available to pharmacists in industry, and not all are attractive. I would not have taken the job in drug information, medical communication, quality assurance, or safety - simply because I do not find them intersting or appealing. If you just want something with no nights or weekends - there are other options than industry, like managed care or grocery store pharmacies with short hours...

I think, that in choosing a job there are several factors one should consider:
- pay (salary, bonus and benefits - not just salary alone)
- work environment (location, hours, fringe benefits)
- people you are going to be working with (this is usually the biggest factor for me)
- nature of the job itself (also very important - I want to enjoy my job)
- long-term perspectives (opportunities for advancement, job security, etc.)

Figure our which factors are the most important to you and evaluate all jobs against them. That's what I am planning on doing. And then, if you decide that your current job has more negatives than positives - then leave, if you decide the benefits are still worth it - then accept it as what it is and don't worry about things you cannot change.
 
Of course, the newspapers and sites are all about doom and gloom. But remember, that the ultimate purpose of mass media is not to inform you, but to make money. So the stories they write are the stories that sell. Therefore, it is not quite as one-sided as the (especially local New Jersey) papers will have you believe. Sure, there have been tens of thousands of jobs shed by the industry in the last couple years. Sure, there will be thousands more jobs lost. However, there is still plenty of opportunity for those willing to be creative and work hard.

The Big Pharma is in a bind due to patent expirations on biggest sellers and lack of new good drugs in the pipeline (and problems with strategic thinking in the upper management ranks as the root cause, but that is a whole another story). There are some exceptions, however, so you are not totatlly out of luck. Small biotech can be subdivided into two categories: those that are failing because they can't get enough funding due to economy, and those that are actually doing quite well and expanding. The key is to know exactly what you are getting into and having your expectations align with reality. The way to achieve it? Research! Do you homework online, maybe visit a library for WSJ and NYT, and then try to network to find an insider to ask about a particular company. Reading the company's SEC filings and checking how their stock has been doing (if it is publicly traded) is also very valuable in making your decision.

There are still opportunities for direct hires as well as for fellowships. Here are some of the differences between the two:
- As a fellow, you come in for a predetermined period of time - a year or two. The upside is that you can't be laid off until that expires. The downside is that after that time you are on your own and you have to look for a job again.
- As a hire, you get paid full salary, which is much, much better than the stipend you get as a fellow.
- As a fellow, you get exposed to more things and your mistakes (trust me, everyone makes them) are looked at a little differently (more forgivable, in a way?) than if you just work there.
- The last difference is the most important. As a pharmacist without industry experience and without an MBA or MPH or Regulatory Affairs degree, the only jobs you can get in pharmaceutical industry would be those typical for pharmacists - medical communication type jobs or quality assurance type jobs. These may or may not be what you want to do. It is quite a vicious cycle - you can't get a job without experience, and you can't get experience without a job. The fellowship allows you to break the cycle. The only alternatives would be to either get another degree (which takes time and money) or spend a few years working in a job you may hate in order to then switch internally to a different department (the catch is that you have to show yourself a great employee to do that - and it is very hard to do a great job doing something you do not like).

Generally, the best way to start would be at the big pharma. A big company has the resources to train you for the job. That includes the people who will train you as well as the resources like information sources, databases, machines, processes already in place. A big company also can afford to take the time to wait for you to become proficient. However, a lot of the big companies are kind of stuffy in their culture, and are a bit of the old boys club. Which means, compounded by the lack of expansion, that you can spend good ten years waiting for a promotion to the next level.

A small company may mean that you will be a one-person shop, which is challenging enough when you are experienced, and impossible when you don't really know what you are doing. You will be expected to hit the ground running. The resources at your disposal will be very limited so you have to be very creative. However, there is more opportunity for advancement.

So, ideally, I would say, spend three to five years at a big company to really learn your job. Then go work for a small company to really cut your teeth. And then you have the whole world on the plate in front of you - you can move up to executive ranks in an established company, or take a risk and join a start up, or pull on the contacts you made throughout your career and strike it out on your own as a consultant.
 
The type of questions I get most often from pharmacy students both here on the boards and in real life is "which of these options should I choose".

Because the implications of such a choice could determine the rest of the person's life, I can certainly understand why people try to get as many opinions as possible. When I got offers for my two dream fellowships, which were different in every aspect - the skills I would acquire, the experiences, the locations, the length - and had to make a decision quickly, I asked just about every one of my professors for their opinion, in addition to my friends and my parents. In the end, however, the decision can be yours alone. No one else ultimately knows what is best for you.

So let's talk a little about the decision-making techniques and how to get the most value out of advice you solicit.

1) First of all, do your homework.
a. Sit down and figure out what is it you want to do. Try to be detailed in what matters to you the most, what would be nice to have vs must have, and what you don't really care about. Remember the Cheshire Cat? When you don't much care where you go, then it doesn't matter which way you go. :)
b. Research the different options as throughly as possible, armed with the list you prepared in 1a. If internet doesn't provide enough answers, talk to people who work in that field, or to programs or work sites themselves.

2) When you ask someone's advice, know what you expect to get out of it. No one will tell you "Oh, this is the only way to go!" and if they do, their advice is probably worth taking with a grain of salt, since a good advisor will never make decision themselves, they will try to guide you to the right decision for you. So try to ask WHY they are recommending one option over another and then see if you agree with their reasoning. Also provide them with enough information about what you want and what you like and dislike so their advice could be more tailored.

3) Trust your gut instinct. It is harder to do when you are choosing an overall direction of your future career than when choosing between two specific positions, but still possible. One thing I do myself - I assign specific outcomes to some random unrelated events. Let's call it a "coin toss" technique. Basically, you say that if you get two heads out of three tosses you will do X and you you get two tails, you will be Y. If you then notice yourself hoping for a specific outcome, and trying again and again to get it - that means that's what you really want.

4) Keep your options open as long as possible. This is more applicable to the broad decisions. Pharmacy school is four years long. Plenty of things can happen between now and graduation that will change your opinion. You can discover more options that exist, you can learn more about your likes and dislikes, you can get hands-on experience in one or more of the options you looked at and decide whether you like it after all. So, try to get as many experiences as possible, and try to prepare for as many different things as possible. And then, usually, when you see something you really want - you will know it.
 
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Taken from a thread in the Pharmacy forum:
What do you recommend I do if I want a job like yours? Or what do you recommend that I do if I want an entry level job that eventually leads to your job! lol....
First, do you even want a job like mine? It is certainly not for everyone. It takes a certain personality... so you need to have great communication skills - be able to talk to anybody (quite literally) and be able to make people listen to you even if they don't want to, and be a bearer of bad news, and be very convincing. And you need to be very analytical - thinking quickly, deciding what's important and what's not, and then digging really deep into what's important. You need excellent time management skills because you are constantly pulled in a million different directions. You need to be extremely independent. You need to be able to wear a lot of different hats. You need to be very curious. You need to be able to take risks.

It is not an entry level position, so you would need to do something else first. Options include doing a targeted fellowship in business intelligence/strategic planning/market analytics, or getting a job. Positions most helpful would be marketing or new business development or medical affairs. The catch? They are also not entry level jobs. Some of them do offer relevant fellowships, though. Otherwise, it's just taking whatever job you can within industry (usually medical information for pharmacists) and trying to get to work with intelligence people as closely as possible so when and if they happen to have an opening, you can come to them and say, "You know what I can do! And I really want to work with you guys!" :)

To start, while you are in school... try to get exposure to the industry, through an internship or a rotation, to see if the environment is right for you - and because that will make getting a fellowship easier. Try to develop the skills I talked about - student organizations usually help. An MBA may help, but I am personally not a fan of dual degrees because an MBA is worth so much more if you do a top program once you actually have relevant work experience... Start reading about pharmaceutical industry issues and thinking about them, so when you come to an interview, you can hold an intelligent conversation. Go to the Midyear and apply for a fellowship.

Basically, ideal career path would be:
- get relevant fellowship position
- complete the fellowship successfully enough to impress company into hiring you - since getting an intelligence job after just a fellowhip is tough, or find another company willing to take a chance on you
- after a couple years, you become a rare and valued professional and you can track the opportunity that looks particularly interesting and take it. :D It's the first two steps which are tough ones.

What is the name of the company you work for?
Now, that's getting way too personal. :D My first two positions were in a big pharmaceutical company, my current one is at a small company.

Also is your job available everywhere in the united states? or is it just certain states? if so where?
Limited to the states that have pharma and biotech companies' headquarters. Essentially, that's New Jersey, New York, Massachussetts and California. There are exceptions, of course, but the bulk are in those areas.

Thanks for the job description! So I guess the most stressful part is getting all your anaylsis and data correct right? I mean if you make a wrong anaylsis your company can lose a ton of money right?
I would say taht the most stressful part is when you can't get the corporate suite to buy into your analysis because their minds were made up long before you even started doing it. Which is exactly why it is so important to choose the right company to work at.

The other sources of stress could be tight deadlines - when someone comes to you for something they needed yesterday, and totally breaks your plans for the day, so you fall behind and/or stay working into the wee hours of the night. A way to avoid this particular thing is to anticipate what people need. It's a skill that comes with experience and experience only. I am still getting there, and probably will spend the rest of my working life getting there, but I had a great mentor, so I know it CAN be done.

As far as making mistakes... as my teachers told me, a valid forecast is not the one which is right, it is the one which is made using the best possible information with the proper care. No one can predict exactly what's going to happen, because world is not rational, decision-makers are not always rational, and random things just aren't predictable. Besides, it is never a one-person decision. There is a lot of discussion and a lot of input from a lot of people. That will mitigate for any one person's downfalls... and that way no one gets blamed if things do go wrong.

Tight budgets can also be frustrating at times... but if you can't be creative with resources you have, you are in the wrong line of work anyway.

Also, if you don't mind posting this, what were the job titles or descriptions of the three jobs you've held in that field?
That's getting personal again. :D

The only thing I would be worry about is making the wrong anaylsis OR if there are just too much to read. I am a slow reader! lol....
Being a slow reader certainly would be an impediment. Lacking confidence would be a greater one. But for you the biggest downfall would be your inability to separate what's important and worth spending time on from what's not important. This is the most fundamental part of the job. :)

Oh and what are all the companies that offer positions like yours? if you don't mind sharing.
Every big pharmaceutical company has intelligence function, and most small companies above a certain size. Besides, similar postions - in new business development, in strategic planning - exist in just about every company. But there are always very few positions like that in any company. Unless we are talking Pfizer/JNJ/Merck type behemoths, it's going to be a one or two-person show.
 
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As the next crop of students is entering their P-4 year and starting to think about what they would like to do when they grow up, I am once again getting questions related to industry fellowships.

One of the hot topics this year (and one of those questions that wouldn't die) is GPA. Let's talk more about what it is, what it is not, and why I looked at it when I was an interviewer.

Is it the most important factor? Certainly not. In fact, if someone really impressed me with their interview, I barely looked at their GPA. For me, the most important sections were applicant's experiences - what jobs they had, what rotations they did (and were planning to do - so I would advise you to add rotations you are scheduled to do but haven't completed yet to your CV if you haven't), what extracurriculars they were involved with.

However, GPA is also not a trifle with no real-world connotations whatsoever, as some people (invariably those with low GPAs) tend to say. Let's face it, it is not that hard to keep a B-average (3.0-ish) in pharmacy school. It's not like law school, where you are graded against each other, so for every A there is generally a D. Everyone starts at 100% and then gets points deducted for every mistake. And professors aren't looking to kill you. When I wrote exams for lectures I taught, I would let them sit for a day or two, and then come back to review them and rewrite those that seemed unfair/too tricky/too open to interpretation. Sure, I could write an exam that no one could pass, not even me if I misplaced an answer key. Yes, some professors are better at writing exam questions than others (you don't realize who difficult it is to write good ones until you try). Still, it is never a professor's inent to fail anyone. If anything, everyone failing would reflect really poorly on the professor's teaching abilities.

Generally anything above 3.0 isn't going to cause a lot of raised eyebrows if you are otherwise a very strong candidate, though 3.5 or higher is better. Why I would have very strong doubts about someone with low GPA? Because what are the possible reasons someone might have low grades:
- They have problems remembering/recalling information. Pharmacy school exams most of the time are all about remembering random facts. While I agree it is a poor exam format, and in real-world pharmacy practice you would look everything up anyway, I would not hire someone with memory problems for my line of work. I need to remember wast amounts of unrelated facts and be able to recall them quickly if I am in a meeting.
- They have problems analyzing/connecting/interpreting/applying fact. That would mean they would fail miserably in this position, and that would be really bad for all parties involved. Better part before we ruin each other's careers.
- They have problems reading a lot of information and/or choosing what is important out of that ton of information and what can be skipped. See above - they would either fail, or they would be at work until midnight, slowly growing to hate themselves, me, the company, the line of work - and I certainly don't want that to happen.
- They have problems with time management/organizational skills. I know it is hard to defeat procrastination. I have been battling it for years and failed more often than not. BUT I haven't let it affect my performance, with few and far away exceptions. When you can't perform the duties expected of you - why would I bother with you?
- They are lazy/have other personality issues. I think this is rather self-explanatory. Someone who can't be bothered to maintain one's grades, he/she probably won't be bothered to do a good job - so he/she is out of the running.

These are the root causes of the bias against applicants with low GPAs. And these applicants better have really, really good explanations for why their GPA is so low. And be an otherwise really, really great candidate. Because unless you prove to me none of these were reasons for your low GPA, I will not hire you. And I have not been known to buy the "I was stupid when I was young but now I know better" story unless it were backed up by some solid proof.

Oh, lest I forget. "I had a personality confilict with one or more of my faculty, that's why they gave me bad grades" is a phrase that is almost guaranteed to shut you out of the position. In my role, one has to work with all kinds of people within and outside the company, and you better be able to get along with every single one of them. Once you hang up the phone/walk out of the meeting, feel free to roll your eyes all you want, and complain to your spouse/buddies/whomever (but me careful that it doesn't go around to bite you) but while you are talking to them, you would better be perfectly nice.

Do all the interviewers look at the GPA the same way? Probably not. Everyone is different. But I have never met or spoken to anyone who would hire a student with very low GPA without a second thought.

On a final note, remember that competition is generally tough. Most people I have interviewed have had GPA in the 3.6-4.0 range, did a good variety of rotations, held at least one leadership position while in pharmacy school, had good letters of recommendation, and were very articulate. When you can take your pick of strong candidates, why take a chance on someone who is lacking in something?
 
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ambition101 said:
What do you look for in an applicant that differentiates a good applicant from a great applicant?
Because the positions are vastly different, the qualities they would be looking for also would be different. However, great communication skills always help get the prersonal connection going, that's important. And what sets apart great applicants is that they GET it from the start. They understand the meaning behind your question, so they answer right away instead of you spending ten minutes and five questiong guding them to the right thought process. They KNOW what the issues the field/department/profession/industry are facing and what they personally can offer to help address those issues.

How intensive is the interviewing process?
Very. On both sides. When I came as an applicant, I only came for two days so I had to fit 12-15 interviews lasting 30, 45 or 60 minutes into each. I would literally just fall asleep in my hotel room after I was done, forget the dinner and the intent to prepare for the next day's interviewes. As an interviewer, it was a little easier, but still exhausting to see some ten-twelve people over three days while trying to attend relevant sessions as well... There are all those networking events at night too, worth attending if you get invited. Never know who you might meet. :)

I am currently a 4th year pharmacy student and I am getting ready to start my letter of intent. I would highly appreciate any feedback from you. Thank you.
Do yourself a favor and don't write one until AFTER the Midyear. You can (and, depending on your self-awareness and writing skills in general, maybe should) start jotting down ideas which are related to yourself and what you can bring to the table - that will help you with the interview prep process - but don't write an actual letter. If you write it now, it will be generic to the point of being useless. When you interview at the PPS suite, you will learn what people you interviewed with consider the most important - and be able to address those points in your letter. Besides, you might not even know which fellowship(s) will end up being your top choice(s). That was the case for me - my top choice, which I ended up completing, was not high on my radar before the PPS, it was actually the third and final interview I had there which convinced me that it was the one. :)
 
I work as an MSL for a pharma company. I really enjoy the aspect of Reg Affairs, though, and am applying to four or five programs (Rutgers being my top choice) this year for the 2011-2013 fellowship period. I knew nothing about reg affairs until being employed in the industry, so that's the reasoning for not completing a fellowship until now. I graduated pharmacy school back in 2008. So with that info, I was wondering why I might run into problems (if any) for getting into a reg affairs fellowship program (again, top choice being Rutgers). Thanks!

I will apply the reasoning my colleagues and I have used when deciding which candidates to bring to second/third interviews at the PPS and especially when choosing who to bring on-site. There are usually good 20-30 people interviewing for a position at the Midyear (some years some are more popular than others), and some 12-15 make through all the rounds there. Most companies do not bring more than five or at most six (if a couple are local) people per position on-site (it gets expensive! unlike residencies, pharma companies usually pay for the prospective fellows' flight and accomodation). Every year there is one or two exceptional candidates (as an interviewer, usually you know in about five or ten minutes at most whetehr you really like someone or not) but there is always the big cluster in the middle which will supply the remaining three or four people for the onsite interviews, so it comes down to small differences deciding who makes it and who doesn't.

The main idea of the fellowships is not necessarily to teach specific skills (that's what graduate school and/or certificate programs are there for), it is to give graduating pharmacy students an opportunity to enter pharmaceutical industry, build networks, and gain valuable experience along the way. In that order. What do the companies get out of it? Identify talent which should (ideally, even though it's not always the case today) be retained and further developed. So, if I have someone who is already employed by the industry, I would have the following concerns:
- If they are already in the industry, why can't they switch internally? Are they just not good enough that their company would want to retain/develop them? Then why would I?
- If switching is impossible because of hiring freeze or size of the company or whatever, why aren't they just trying to get a entry-level position in the field?
- They are already in the industry, they have opportunity to network and eventually get where they want - so giving them a fellowship means denying a fellowship to someone who has no other way to get in.
- Do they have unrealistic expectations? Do they think I am guaranteeing them a job after the fellowship is over?

So, to overcome these concerns you would need to:
- Be such a stellar candidate that I just WANT to have you, these concerns unimportant by comparison
- OR have a good (and I mean GOOD) story to address the concerns I outlined above

It doesn't mean you won't get a fellowship, it just means you have an additional hurdle to overcome/additional explaining to do.
 
Having discussed GPA, let's tackle another perennial favorite of fellowship seekers: the dreaded Letter of Intent. Though the same general principles apply to residency letters of intent, graduate school programs letters of intent, and cover letters for job seekers...

Writing a letter of intent that will help boost your chances, buy your application extra reviewing time and attention, or even make up for whatever shortcomings your application may have is very difficult. I have written a few, edited a few, and read a lot of them. Many letters of intent floating out there are generic to the extent that they could have been written by literally any of the thousands of graduating pharmacy students and could be sent to literally any program in the country. Essentially, they project messages like "I am a random Joe Shmoe and I want you to accept me because I cared to apply, dammit!" While a generic letter will not kill a stellar candidate, an average candidate certainly won't get any help from it either.

Basically, a letter of intent should do the following:
- Showcase your best qualities as a candidate
- Create a connection between you and your audience
- Make you memorable, so I don't confuse you with any of the twenty other people whose applications are sitting on my desk
- Show that you understand what the program is about and why you want to do this and not something else

How do you accomplish all this in a letter? I am personally a fan of a more disciplined, formal approach to letters of intent. They are not personal statements. It is incredibly difficult to pull off more creative/storytelling approaches in a letter of intent without going to the Cheesyland beyond the point of no return.

Start with a brief statement of who you are (i.e. I am Jane Doe graduating from University of Wherever with my PharmD in the year 20XX).

Then tell in a sentence or two what made you pursue this program - some relevant experience would be ideal. For example, "On rotation at NN I got a taste of Regulatory Affairs and..."

Then tell why this particular program is the most appealing to you. Just like you want to feel the love, the programs want to feel special too. Just be honest. Don't write a two-page love letter because the readers won't buy it (and I have seen some like that!). Be specific - what is it about this particular company, or particualr position, which makes it one of your top choices. For example, "I have strong interest in HIV, volunteered in HIV clinic, and this company has the best HIV drug pipeline so I want to be a part of it" or "this program is unique in that it allows fellows to get FDA experience in addition to industry experience"

Then describe in detail the qualities that make you the perfect candidate for this position. Again, be honest, be specific, and illustrate rather than tell whenever possible. Also, it would be great if you could tie this back to the conversation you had with the program at Midyear (which is why I always advise holding off on writing letters of intent until after the Midyear). It can be as simple as remembering what they said was very important ot them, or it could be referring to a specific topic that came up in the conversation if it was something unusual/unexpected/memorable. Tell of any relevant experiences that would make you better at this job/help you learn the fastest compared to other candidates.

Don't forget to write a strong closure. Strong means showing that you really, really do want this program and they should want you too.

After the hard part of "how do I get started", which most people do manage to overcome one way or another, comes the other hard part, which is often handled very poorly. You should fit your letter to one page single-spaced. In some cases one and a half or two pages can be acceptable, but I can't remember a good letter that couldn't say everything it needed to say on one page. Editing is a skill most people sadly neglect. It is very easy to get attached to one's writing - after all, you sweated over each sentence, polishing it like a gem until it sparkled. And now you have to cross it out. But you have to do it.

The best way to write a letter of intent is to first write the notes on what you want the program to know about you, and what you like about the program. Then write these out in complete sentences and put them together in a letter. Be detailed, be verbose. And then go through what you have written and delete whatever is duplicate (other than some recap in the closure), irrelevant, or simply generic filler fluff. If it is difficult to decide what is important and what can be deleted, often it helps if you get someone else to read your letter. Ask someone who doesn't know you well to highlight what they really wanted/liked to know about you, and cross out whatever they didn't think mattered.

From my experience, taking out the time spent moaning about difficulty of writing a letter, writing one takes about an hour or two depending on how well you know yourself and the program. Editing takes another hour or two, better done a few days later, so writing it is no longer fresh in your mind. Then have a couple people look at it, do the final edit (another hour at most) and you are ready to go.

One thing I would advise against is taking one of the generic samples and filling in your information. It would be just that - generic garbage not worth reading. And of course, don't take someone else's letter and edit it and pass it off as your own. Besides the obvious ethical implications, someone's voice and writing style tend to come through if they are a good writer (and if you copied off a poor writer - see generic garbage note), and that voice won't be yours. The readers who spoke to you/will speak to you will likely notice the disconnect.

It's really not that difficult to write a good letter of intent, and it does get easier with practice. Good luck! And since I am no longer involved with any programs, I would be willing to look over your letters if time permits (I often travel to see family around the holidays, which is the prime season for writing these letters).
 
eskimo88 said:
I was wondering if you think a dual PharmD/JD degree would qualify me for a patent attorney position in big pharma..or if you would have any advice for becoming a patent attorney in Big Pharma.

First, let's make sure you understand the patent attorney function. It is not arguing those patent dispute cases you hear about in the news, that's handled by outside law firms in virtually every case I have seen, and I have seen A LOT of them. Most of what patent attorneys do is not very glamorous (most of what wast majority of attorneys do is not very glamorous), it's doing patent searches and reviewing claims, and drafting your own patent claims. If that's what you want to do, then that's great - I personally think it get very boring very quickly... I love Hatch-Waxman and all the patent challenge/patent expiration work, but doing the drudgery of constant patent searches - no, thanks. Being a patent attorney in a generic company and searching for patents that would be best candidates for you to develop generics against - that is probably more interesting... but still the actual trial, should it come to trial, will be handled by outside counsel. I heard Teva is a really good company for attorneys to work for, they pick 'em fresh out of school and indoctrinate them in Teva ways, have a whole training program just for that. :D

Of course, if you want to be a patent attorney, you need to go to law school. That's the only way to become an attorney (though I think a couple states still allow one to become attorneys through just reading the laws...). Whether it is worth it going to pharmacy school first... well, most patent attorneys do have background relevant to the industry they work in, and a lot of pharma patent attorneys have biology or chemistry or other life science degree. There are some PharmD/JDs working in those positions too, but generally people don't go for time and expense getting two professional degrees involves... For patent attorneys, understanding the science behind the claims is important, and PharmD program is much more about clinical use/selecting therapy for individual patients ratehr than about the hard science behind something. Will it help you succeed in the role of a pharma patent attorney? Yes. Will it help more than a BS in biochemistry/organic chemistry/molecular biology/genetics? Probably not so much as to warrant additional time and money spent getting it. But that's my opinion, for you the clinical background may be important enough to obtain regardless of time/cost. PharmD is always a good back-up plan, too.
 
What is the criteria for a "difficult to offshore" job?
Something that requires either local presence, or intimate knowledge of local realities. So, discovery and pre-clinical research, and IT, and some data-mining/data-crunching operations are easy to offshore. Something like clinical research, regulatory affairs, or marketing is difficult.

Just out of curiosity, do you still look at GPAs of applicants who have been out of school for a few years? What about PharmD+PhD students. Do you look at their PharmD grades or their more recent PhD grades?
To date, I have never been involved into hiring experienced candidates, since those positions are usually more senior level... but I would say, if someone has been out of school for more than three years, I probably wouldn't even look at the GPA. The thing that matters is what experience they have and how they performed in their previous positions. For recent graduates, there is just no other surrogate measure for ability to perform long-term than GPA...

I have never been involved with hiring scientists either, and will not be, unless I some day become a CEO and will be looking for a CSO (Chief Scientific Officer), and for those types of positions any kind of college experience is long irrelevant. :D I suppose how I would evaluate a PharmD/PhD would depend on what position they applied for. If that was a research position, I would look at research they did and their publications and PharmD would not be very relevant, unless it was really, really good or really, really bad. If it was a more pharmacy-related position, such as medical communication, I would definitely take PharmD GPA and other pharmacy degree-related experiences into account. If it was a non-specific position, such as ones I actually did interveiw people for... I would probably look at the PharmD GPA above PhD GPA since PhD coursework is pretty much all research, and I am looking for a different set of skills than a pure researcher.
 
My school was not affiliated with any type of company and therefore did not provide such a rotation as an established option, but students are able to coordinate such on their own and the school is fairly accomodating from that standpoint. Although I don't believe too many of our students (if any) are pursuing such roles.

Lately I have been thinking about possibly changing one of my electives (most likely one of my last ones) to an industry rotation with a pharmaceutical co., however I am afraid it may be too late.

Is it too late to look into such a rotation given my status as a 4th year student (I know many companies require applications by the previous year)?
If so, I understand there to be similar opportunities (ie: internships) after graduation, however, are such companies less likely to take a graduate vs. a current student?

Looking at a rotation now is certainly quite late. The programs that typically take students on rotations, be it from schools affiliated with them or anyone who cares to apply, are already set for the year. You can try to contact them, but your chances are rather slim. Your best option would be to find someone who you know who would be willing to precept you personally. Contacting your school's alumni office to see if any alumni work in the industry would be a good starting point. However, setting up a rotation on the preceptor's end takes a lot of time and effort, and there aren't many people who are not already preceptors who would be willing or able to do that. Still, it may be worth a shot.

As far as other options... internships are typically targeting students who have completed their P-2 or P-3 year. And trust me, there are a lot students in those years in the East Coast schools who are competing for the few internships available, it's not like you can pick up the phone and the program will be happy to take you just because they have no one else. Would the internship program take a graduate? I honestly don't know, because I have never heard of such applicants before. Normally, people who graduated with a PharmD want either a real job or post-doctoral training, not a couple months of internship that will not really help them much. On the other hand, if you really show yourself to be a stellar intern, they may want to hire you on the spot... but companies hosting internships are typically large pharma, and most large pharma have hiring freezes now, and/or seek only very experiences, highly qualified candidates. So, if you do not get a job out of the internship, you would be pretty much back to the square one, as if you haven't done one. Two-three months of industry experience is nothing. Two-three years, on the other hand, is a real deal. But you don't sound like you are ready to commit to a two-year fellowship, for example. Unless you are absolutely sure that is what you want to do, you simply won't make it through the interviewing process. So I would suggest you think hard about what you want to be when you grow up, and then act accordingly. If that happens to be pharmaceutical industry - go to the Midyear and talk to the different fellowships, they may be what you would want to do. While fellowship programs do typically want to see someone with a pharma rotation or internship, they realize that in Midwest it is much harder to get one than here in NJ/NY/PA/Mass area, and it won't be held against you if you can show that you understand waht pharmaceutical industry is (and is not).
 
Letters of Recommedation are the part of your application over which you have the least control. You are entirely dependent on the LOR writer's goodwill, so the most important factor is choosing the right people to approach about writing your letters of recommendation. The second most important factor is timing and overall process management.

Most programs expect to receive your application by mid-January at the latest. Therefore, October is a good time to start asking potential letter writers whether they would be willing to write a letter for you. Tell them that you will provide final detail on the programs you are applying to after Midyear (I recommend not finalizing your choices until after you have met with the programs, as personal conversation can change what program will be your top choice - for me, that's exactly what happened), so they will need to write a letter (or finalize writing a letter) sometime over the holidays. Not everyone may be available in that time frame, so be prepared to hear some polite refusals. Create your list of your top choices of letter writers, and approach them one by one starting with the number one. Avoid asking more than the required number of people, so you don't have to tell anyone later, "Thanks for your kind offer, but I don't need it anymore." - it can be awkward. The only exception is, if you are going to ask different people write letters to different programs (see below).

The ideal writer would:
- know you very well
This is by far the most important factor. A good letter of recommendation should be personal. It should not look or feel like a template with the student's name and a couple other facts like dates and places copy-pasted into it. Choose someone who you have worked closely with, be it your preceptor, your professor, or your employer. It should be someone who knows you professionally - not only what you can bring to the table, but also your dreams and aspirations - and personally (to the lesser extent, but it is still a big plus).
Because world is not ideal: If you did not have someone who knows you that well, you still have time. Start cultivating the relationships with potential letter writers. Stop by and have a good, honest conversation about what you want to do when you grow up. And when you ask them to write you a letter, provide them with a copy of you CV, your draft letter of intent, and brief description of the program(s) you are applying to. It will really help the writer out. Do it even if your professor knows you very well.

- work in the field you are hoping to enter
Because the diversity of options within pharmaceutical industry is far greater than in the world of clinical residencies, someone who knows the field you are interested in will be a big help. Not only will they be able to help you write your own letter of intent and prepare for your Midyear interviews by sharing their knowledge and experience, but when writing your letter of recommendation, they will be able to highlight your qualities that are the best match for that field. Let's just say that a letter praising someone's great creativity would work a lot better for a marketing fellowship than for a regulatory affairs one. Therefore, it may be a good idea to have different people writing letters to different programs. For example, two people could be writing letters to each of the four programs you are interested in, but the third person could be different for three of the program programs, etc.
Because world is not ideal: If you are like most pharmacy students, you don't really know anyone who works or used to work in the pharmaceutical industry in the position of your choice. In that case, try to go with the best approximation (while keeping in mind that someone who really knows you is the biggest factor). For example, if you are applying into marketing program, your pharmacy management professor or someone who opened an independent pharmacy may be a better choice, all other factors being equal, than someone who is a purely clinical faculty member. Or if you are applying for a regulatory affairs program, your pharmacy law professor, or your preceptor from the Board of Pharmacy rotation may be the best bet. If you have not had any relevant rotations where you could ask the preceptor, I have to question why you are even applying into certain positions. It would be difficult for you to convince the program that you really want to do it, if you haven't applied any effort to get as much as possible out of your school's experiential education and/or internship opportunities.

- really, really want you to succeed
- be experienced in writing letters of recommendation
- be eloquent

These three all tie together, in a way. You want someone who is willing to be your champion. If they don't care enough about you, it will come through in the letter. If someone has never written a letter of recommendation before, they may be scared by the prospect, and go take one of the templates online and kind of fill it in. Not what you want to happen. Same thing, if someone is a poor writer, that wouldn't reflect well on you.

Generally, the reason I would read letters of recommendation would be to try and get a feel what the person is really about. Letters of intent are the person tooting their own horn, so you can trust what you read between the lines more than what the letter says, but it is still imperfect. Letters of recommendation are slightly more objective. Ideally, they would provide some specific examples, which would really show who and what you are, rather than tell it.

Once you have selected the people you want to write your letters of recommendation and they agreed, you have to remember to manage the process. If you think you have done your part, you risk finding out that a letter did not make it to the program. When you come back from the Midyear, reach out to the letter writers with your final list of the programs where they should mail the letters, and any special instructions the programs may have provided. Also, ask whether they are still willing and able to write the letters, as circumstances do change and your thoughtfulness will be appreciated, as no one wants to come to the student and ask whether they can get out of writing a letter. Then remember to thank the letter writers, though I personally do not believe gift cards or anything like that is necessary. A simple thank you, delivered in person, or via e-mail, or a card in the mail, will suffice. Not that I have ever, or would ever, refuse chocolate... :laugh:
 
Im currently a P1 and am interested in getting an internship in industry. I don't actually know what i want to do and am hoping that an internship would help me figure out if this is a path that I would be interested in. I've been looking around many pharma companies websites and am waiting for Dec/Jan when they say intern postings will be up. Are there any other good ways to find pharma internships other than through big company websites and any recommendations for applying?
Well, it's great that you are starting to explore your options even as a P-1. :)

Have you mentioned your interest to your faculty advisor and/or your Assistant Dean for Student Affairs or even your Dean (depending on how big your school is and how well everyone knows everyone)? They often get information about internships from their friends/colleagues/former students, and could forward it either to everyone in the school. But if they assume no one will be interested (not likely to happen, but you never know), you may miss out at an opportunity. Besides, they have a wealth of contacts and advice they could share, which would be customized for you, rather than general advice I can dispense over the Internet.

I believe the Rutgers Fellowship program website had a list of internships at some point, I would look through the website. You could also contact the program to discuss different options. I am sure they would be interested in helping a potential future applicant.

I'm especially unsure of how to make a good cover letter when I cant give a specific 'this is why I want to be in industry'

Well, there IS a reason you are even looking at it, right? Even if you don't have a particular all-important one?

I would structure it in a general way:
- say that you are interested in the program, and briefly describe why (i.e. want to explore commercial side, or research interests, or whatever it is the program allows you to do)
- what in your past experience(s) makes you a good match for the program
- loop back with saying how excited you were to hear of this opportunity and that you are looking forward to hearing from them.

I would get a good job search/resume-writing type book, which I think go into writing cover letters. After all, applying for a job (as opposed to THE job) is the same as applying for an internship in your situation.

Your pharmacy school may have a book like that available, even one targeted specifically for pharmacists (APhA regularly updates their Pharmacists' Guide to CVs and Interviewing).

Also, be prepared to handle a long waiting, after which majority of the programs won't even contact you - ever. And be prepared to handle rejections after phone interviews, if you do get any. As a P-1, you would be at a disadvantage when competing against P-2s. I think a lot of the programs wouldn't even take P-1.

Good luck!
 
Because I have been asked this question far too many times...

Basically, the question is rather silly, it is like asking, "Do basketball players earn a decent salary"? The range is from someone who plays for a small team in a local league and makes just enough to cover transportation and uniform and has another day job, to an NBA star who makes millions.

Same way, there are a lot of factors that determine one's salary in pharma world. Things like job description, job title, experience, and education, among others. Also, besides salary there are such things as annual bonus and/or equity awards that can make up the bulk of compensation.

All I can say, for entry-level positions someone without industry experience is likely to get, it will probably be less than retail. But the potential for compensation growth is much greater than in retail.
 
Wow, what a great thread. Thank you so much for writing all this up, IndustryPharmD. As a recent grad who's now doing an industry fellowship, I cannot believe how accurate all this information is! I am here because I am also available to answer questions about PharmD in industry, in particular, the research industry.

About me.
- 2010 PharmD grad (no previous work experience). Fellow in Pharmacology at a Big Pharma company now.

What do pharmacists do in clinical research?

NOTE: You hear that clinical research this can me split up in 2 sections, early phase clinical trials and late phase clinical trials. Early phase is more "research"-type work (horrible explanation I know but I will get more on this later) and later phase is more like project management. Late-phase clinical trials involves key issues in time management, being involved at the clinical sites that's conducting the trials. I cannot speak too much on late-phase clinical research because I'm not involved in this aspect of industry. To me, early/late phase is not an great definition but I will go along with it because that's how it's usually separated. I will speak on my experience in Clinical Pharmacology, or "early-phase" clinical research.

In Clin Pharm, PharmDs:
- Write protocols. Example: bioequivalence, drug-interaction, food effect on drugs, drug for renally impaired, ect
- Analyze data from trials. This involves knowledge and expertise in pharmacokinetics and statistics. You will learn lots of new programs, programming skills and technical proficiency are very useful in this field.

What about job availability and security?
- Job availability is a big drawback in industry. If you live in the West Coast, job availability can be difficult because a lot of drug companies are in the East Coast. If you are never willing to move, industry may not be a good option for you.
- Job security in pharmaceutical industry is not so hot, let's face it. Layoffs are common and most ppl involved in pharma after a long while become pessimistic. You're in an industry where 90% is failure. Drugs don't work. Drugs kill people. Drugs get withdrawn... all this after the company has invested hundreds of millions. And who gets hurt? The employees.

If that's the case, then why industry?
- For me, it's not about money. I've not had a real job in industry yet, but I don't get the impression that PharmD in industry are super-well paid. There are many advantages and disadvantages to being in industry. I chose industry because it's what I love and it's where my strengths are.
- What IndustryPharmD said

What kind of skills would be needed to succeed?
Self-initiation, self-motivation. This is probably true in any profession and industry is no different. Slackers suck at their jobs. Be the kind of person who takes pride and ownership in his work-- do the best you can and not just for the sake of doing it.

My goal in writing this is to let more students know about the options for PharmD in clinical research, to help students become competitive candidates for fellowships by being a resource for them, and of course, to attract more PharmDs into the profession! There are lots of PhDs in Clin Pharm but I always think it's good to have someone who has that clinical expertise-- we see the sky through a different lens and this is advantageous to drug companies. Also, I know a lot more about industry now than I did 4 years ago and I hope to help other students with that info. I was in your shoes not too long ago so I know how it feels, especially if industry is something you really want to do.

Finally, know that even though I'm working in industry now, I'm in the early stages of my career and still learning. What I say may or may not be all that accurate. Usual disclaimer applies.

Also wanted to add that I'm a UCSF grad and can UCSF-specific questions, in terms of the PharmSci pathway, investigators at UCSF, California-related job questions... or at least try. If anyone is interested in academia, I can give my 2 cents as well. I find that ppl will often contact me through the forums and I don't mind but please know I won't proof-read your pharmacy school essays or cover letters or whatnot. I rarely visit SD anymore but you may contact me at monkeyblankie(AT)gmail if you have a burning question.
 
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Wow, what a great thread. Thank you so much for writing all this up, IndustryPharmD. As a recent grad who's now doing an industry fellowship, I cannot believe how accurate all this information is!
I try to talk only about things I know. :)

I am here because I am also available to answer questions about PharmD in industry, in particular, the research industry.
Welcome, and congratulations on getting the fellowship! Since I know very little about the research side of things, as you gain experience you can share, it will be great to have you on board. I have received a lot of research-career related questions which I could not answer.
 
What exactly do you mean?

Sorry, I mean how demand is drug formulation job in drug company. My pharmaceutics professor told me that it is on high demand for now and perhaps. Still I want to hear it from you. Also, I am still struggling with choosing between regulatory affair career or drug research and development career. Both of them are very interesting to me. Would you please shed some lights about these two areas?

Thank you very much.
 
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Hello, I am currently an international P1. I have always wanted to pursue research in either oncology or infectious diseases. I don't intend to do a phd, as i prefer work and gain experience even though a phd will have more weight. I am currently looking for internships for summer 2012 which need not be in a research field. After my PharmD i plan on doing my P1,P2 and P3 years at hospitals then a fellowship. Maybe at the end of my school years i may opt for a different path. But do you have any advice or know of any internships which i should consider?
 
Sorry, I mean how demand is drug formulation job in drug company. My pharmaceutics professor told me that it is on high demand for now and perhaps. Still I want to hear it from you. Also, I am still struggling with choosing between regulatory affair career or drug research and development career. Both of them are very interesting to me. Would you please shed some lights about these two areas?

Thank you very much.

I'm reg affairs, so cannot help with the research topic so much. I can tell you that research is going towards CROs and not in-house people meaning job security will be even less. Drug formulation is not big unless you get in with a genetics or biomolecule company from what I have seen.

Reg affairs is somewhat saturated in the lower and mid-level positions. That's not to say you couldn't get a job, but it will pay significantly less than being a traditional pharmacist. Also realize that "reg affairs" doesn't mean anything. Just like pharmacy and specialization, reg affairs requires that you become proficient in a particular area. I know a little about GMO, drugs, biologics and med device, but am most familiar with small molecule and GxPx. Therefore, I couldn't work for a med device company on a whim.

What specific questions do you have? Each is it's own domain and presents unique challenges. Either way, you need to have a career pathway and goals in mind as they are both competitive fields.
 
Hello, I am currently an international P1. I have always wanted to pursue research in either oncology or infectious diseases. I don't intend to do a phd, as i prefer work and gain experience even though a phd will have more weight. I am currently looking for internships for summer 2012 which need not be in a research field. After my PharmD i plan on doing my P1,P2 and P3 years at hospitals then a fellowship. Maybe at the end of my school years i may opt for a different path. But do you have any advice or know of any internships which i should consider?

A Ph.D or Sc.D. would be the best route to go. I'm only familiar with one research fellowship offered by TKL through Rutgers.
 
A Ph.D or Sc.D. would be the best route to go. I'm only familiar with one research fellowship offered by TKL through Rutgers.

Thank you for your answer.

Do you know any other areas in pharmaceutical company where jobs are still available and in demand?
 
Thank you for your answer.

Do you know any other areas in pharmaceutical company where jobs are still available and in demand?

This is my opinion. I have been in the industry for two years and can tell you turn over is very high. A friend told me when I started the only thing in industry is there are no certainties or job security. Look at job boards and take your time to investigate. Right now, very little is in high demand.
 
This is my opinion. I have been in the industry for two years and can tell you turn over is very high. A friend told me when I started the only thing in industry is there are no certainties or job security. Look at job boards and take your time to investigate. Right now, very little is in high demand.

This is what I thought. I have been doing extensive research about it. Nothing really came out to be promise except translational science. I heard NIH will invest a lot of money into it for the future. Do you hear anything about it?
 
This is what I thought. I have been doing extensive research about it. Nothing really came out to be promise except translational science. I heard NIH will invest a lot of money into it for the future. Do you hear anything about it?

Ehh... The problem with this is you have to have a crystal ball that has a really impressive confidence interval... A little pharmacy humor for you. Seriously, I think that NIH funding is best suited to be funneled to education institutions, not pharma. However, there is a push to have NIH/Pharma partnering in the form of agreements for pharma to license. I don't think this is incredibly promising; however, some disease states may have to go this way (e.g. neuropsych) due to loss of pharma R&D interest. Send me a PM and we can go into more specifics.
 
Sorry, I mean how demand is drug formulation job in drug company. My pharmaceutics professor told me that it is on high demand for now and perhaps. Still I want to hear it from you. Also, I am still struggling with choosing between regulatory affair career or drug research and development career. Both of them are very interesting to me. Would you please shed some lights about these two areas?
Well, there are always going to be jobs for formulation chemists, because every drug has to be made into some kind of a dosage form. However, hardly anyone does it in-house, and lately the push has been to offshore these to Chinese and Indian CROs. Also, it's not where I could see a pharmacist succeeding. Pharmacists lack the requisite expertise and cost too much money.

Regulatory affairs is also always necessary, but people are always looking for niche specialists, not recent pharmacy grads. My current company has been looking for a regulatory affairs person for several months, just because we couldn't find anyone with relevant experience. Not that there haven't been many reg affairs people put out on the street by big pharma in NJ...

Do you know any other areas in pharmaceutical company where jobs are still available and in demand?
I would say, people in demand are certain niche specialists. And it's not easy to become a niche specialist and it's even harder to guess which one will be the "hot" niche. I followed my heart in choosing business and competitive intelligence, and I have been pretty lucky that this has been a fairly hot field.
 
Hello, I am currently an international P1. I have always wanted to pursue research in either oncology or infectious diseases. I don't intend to do a phd, as i prefer work and gain experience even though a phd will have more weight. I am currently looking for internships for summer 2012 which need not be in a research field. After my PharmD i plan on doing my P1,P2 and P3 years at hospitals then a fellowship. Maybe at the end of my school years i may opt for a different path. But do you have any advice or know of any internships which i should consider?
I would suggest you explore different options while you are in school. You may change your mind by graduation. If you still want to do research, you can go into a fellowship or a PhD program, depending on what type of research you want to do.

Can't help with specific internships, you have to do your own searching. Just go for what you find interesting and see whether you still like it by the end of the internship. :D
 
Hello. I am a student in the St Johns 6 year pharmD program..and I will be entering my second year this fall. I have no idea what type of pharmacy I would like to do but I know its either clinical or industrial and maybe keep a retail job on the side like you mentioned you do. What exactly is the difference between industrial and clinical? and if I am interested in industrial do you think I should begin to do research in my university? Thank You!
 
I'm a P2 currently and my school does not have a huge focus on industry. However, ever since I learnt about the industry, I've been keen on it. My question is- as a student, what is a good way to get your foot through the door? I'm looking for an internship next summer. How do I go about looking for one?
 
I'm a P2 currently and my school does not have a huge focus on industry. However, ever since I learnt about the industry, I've been keen on it. My question is- as a student, what is a good way to get your foot through the door? I'm looking for an internship next summer. How do I go about looking for one?

Most schools have research electives for students. I encourage you to take one course to get some experience. I just finished my research elective last year and have paper published. I was offered to work in another project this year and my name will be on the second paper. It is a great opportunity to build your resume also.

There are several research electives you can take. Pick the one that is related to pharmacology or pharmaceutics. I think these can help you to get a fellowship later on.
 
Most schools have research electives for students. I encourage you to take one course to get some experience. I just finished my research elective last year and have paper published. I was offered to work in another project this year and my name will be on the second paper. It is a great opportunity to build your resume also.

There are several research electives you can take. Pick the one that is related to pharmacology or pharmaceutics. I think these can help you to get a fellowship later on.

Honestly, after talking to several fellows, I haven't met a single one who has not had experience in the industry prior to the fellowship. This experience is usually through internships and rotations. If you look at the following poster published by the fellows: http://pharmafellows.rutgers.edu/me...SHP-the_impact_of_industry_based_training.pdf ...

What they really value is the interview and a really good reflection of your interviewing skills is what you have to talk about - so past experience in industry and leadership and involvement is what they really like.
 
Honestly, after talking to several fellows, I haven't met a single one who has not had experience in the industry prior to the fellowship. This experience is usually through internships and rotations. If you look at the following poster published by the fellows: http://pharmafellows.rutgers.edu/me...SHP-the_impact_of_industry_based_training.pdf ...

What they really value is the interview and a really good reflection of your interviewing skills is what you have to talk about - so past experience in industry and leadership and involvement is what they really like.

If you can have that too, I think it is good. But I am afraid not everyone has the same opportunity to have experience in industry in this economy. In fact, I asked few of my professors who had worked for major company, they said it is very difficult now to get a job in industry.

However, try our best to get any type of research either in school or anywhere else is another alternative way.
 
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