Study: Too few minorities in health care

sylvamoon · Sep 21, 2004

Study: Too few minorities in health care
Tuesday, September 21, 2004 Posted: 9:51 AM EDT (1351 GMT)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The United States needs more black, Hispanic and American Indian doctors and nurses if minorities have any hope of catching up to whites in terms of the quality and accessibility of health care, a special commission said Monday.

While blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans make up more than 25 percent of the U.S. population, they represent only 9 percent of the nation's nurses, 6 percent of doctors and 5 percent of dentists, the Sullivan Commission on Diversity in the Health Workforce said.

"Access to health professions remains largely separate and unequal," said Dr. Louis Sullivan, a former U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services, who chaired the privately funded commission that includes health, business and education officials.

"We know that minority physicians, dentists and nurses are more likely to serve minority and medically underserved populations, yet there is a severe shortage of minorities in the health professions. Without much more diversity in the health workforce, minorities will continue to suffer," Sullivan added in a statement.

Many studies have shown clear disparities in health care in the United States.

For instance, black men are far more likely to die of heart disease and prostate cancer than are white men, while black women are more likely to die of breast cancer than white women -- even though they have lower overall rates of the disease.

"The dearth of minority health professionals directly contributes to the nation's crisis of lower quality of health care and higher rates of illness and disability among a growing number of residents," said Dr. Georges Benjamin, executive director of the American Public Health Association.

"Our nation's population is becoming increasingly diverse, and our health work force should reflect that," Benjamin added.

The 16-member commission said one place to start rectifying the problem was at universities, medical schools and nursing colleges where only a small percentage of the faculties are ethnic minorities,

Minorities should be encouraged to go into the health professions, in part by offering more scholarships instead of student loans, the commission said.

The commission also recommended increased funding for research about racial disparities in health, language training for health professionals and federal legislation to ensure the development of a diverse work force.

Blake · Sep 21, 2004

Good thread, but it'll get ugly very soon

bigdan · Sep 21, 2004

Blake-

True. An AA flame war is brewing.

The article was a good post though.

dc

skhichi · Sep 21, 2004

what i don't understand is why asians (including those from south asia) are not regarded as minorities. Collectively the African american, hispanic, and american indian population in this country adds up to almost 100 million people. That's a whole lot more than asians.

Blake · Sep 21, 2004

bigdan said:
Blake-

True. An AA flame war is brewing.

The article was a good post though.

dc

You'd think a bunch of future physicians could discuss such a subject as adults. But boy, was I wrong

skhichi · Sep 21, 2004

I'm really not trying to be rude. Being Asian, it just irks me that we are not considered minorites while other ethnicities are. Even though the numbers would indicate otherwise.

Blake · Sep 21, 2004

skhichi said:
I'm really not trying to be rude. Being Asian, it just irks me that we are not considered minorites while other ethnicities are. Even though the numbers would indicate otherwise.

The thread is about the lack of these minorities in health care. It doesn't say that asians aren't a minority in America.

skhichi · Sep 21, 2004

I totally understand...and maybe I should have started my own thread but I'm kind of taking this in another direction. I'm not saying that the minorites addressed in the study are adequatlely represented just that other people that should be considered minorities are not. This happens everywhere.

Blake · Sep 21, 2004

skhichi said:
I totally understand...and maybe I should have started my own thread but I'm kind of taking this in another direction. I'm not saying that the minorites addressed in the study are adequatlely represented just that other people that should be considered minorities are not. This happens everywhere.

What do you mean by " other people that should be considered minorities are not " ?

sylvamoon · Sep 21, 2004

why do you want to be considered a minority? how would that label help you in any way since you are not underrepresented?

dmoney41 · Sep 21, 2004

"We know that minority physicians, dentists and nurses are more likely to serve minority and medically underserved populations, yet there is a severe shortage of minorities in the health professions. Without much more diversity in the health workforce, minorities will continue to suffer," Sullivan added in a statement.

What a ******ed comment. I wouldn't mind if he came out and said "I want more minorities in the physician workforce because I think it's fair, yadda yadda, past inequities" or whatever. The claim that the best way to get more people to serve medically underserved populations of minorities is to randomly churn out more minority doctors and hope that they head on over to the poor minority neighborhoods is just mind boggling.

Hint: See NHSC for the type of program that would be proposed if they were actually serious about getting medical care to underserved minorities

MeMyselfI · Sep 21, 2004

dmoney41 said:
What a ******ed comment. I wouldn't mind if he came out and said "I want more minorities in the physician workforce because I think it's fair, yadda yadda, past inequities" or whatever. The claim that the best way to get more people to serve medically underserved populations of minorities is to randomly churn out more minority doctors and hope that they head on over to the poor minority neighborhoods is just mind boggling.

Hint: See NHSC for the type of program that would be proposed if they were actually serious about getting medical care to underserved minorities

The AAMC actually did a study on this. It showed that about 80% Latino as well as 80% African Americans serve their communities once they completed residency. I'll have to find the study again.

sylvamoon · Sep 21, 2004

dmoney41 said:
The claim that the best way to get more people to serve medically underserved populations of minorities is to randomly churn out more minority doctors and hope that they head on over to the poor minority neighborhoods is just mind boggling.

Hint: See NHSC for the type of program that would be proposed if they were actually serious about getting medical care to underserved minorities

1) i dont think the writer said "randomly"

that's your own interpretation

2) minority physicians are more likely to work in underserved communities

MeMyselfI · Sep 21, 2004

skhichi said:
I'm really not trying to be rude. Being Asian, it just irks me that we are not considered minorites while other ethnicities are. Even though the numbers would indicate otherwise.

While Asians are a minority when viewing the total U.S. population, they are not a minority in the medical field. I do recognize that there are different Asian groups, and I feel that the groups that are less represented in medicine should be considered minorities in medicine.

MadameLULU · Sep 21, 2004

skhichi said:
I totally understand...and maybe I should have started my own thread but I'm kind of taking this in another direction. I'm not saying that the minorites addressed in the study are adequatlely represented just that other people that should be considered minorities are not. This happens everywhere.

I dont understand your point...why should Asians be considered minorities in medicine? They aren't. I believe that the percentage of Aasians practicing medicine is greater than the percentage of Asians living in America. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

The whole point of increasing URMs in medicine is so that the percentages in medicine can represent the percentages in the United States and to decrease the multitude of racial and ethnic health disparities

bostonabe · Sep 21, 2004

dmoney41 said:
What a ******ed comment. I wouldn't mind if he came out and said "I want more minorities in the physician workforce because I think it's fair, yadda yadda, past inequities" or whatever. The claim that the best way to get more people to serve medically underserved populations of minorities is to randomly churn out more minority doctors and hope that they head on over to the poor minority neighborhoods is just mind boggling.

Hint: See NHSC for the type of program that would be proposed if they were actually serious about getting medical care to underserved minorities

I believe the article is also suggesting minority patients would be more likely to see a physician who is of a similar race/ethnicity. And it is important to note that preventive medicine requires patients to see physicians BEFORE they get sick. But if a patient doesn't feel comfortable seeing a white male doctor, then they are less likely to seek out adequate healthcare. Thus it is important to produce URM physicians in a similar proportion to the number of minorities in the American population. Doctors must adapt to the community they serve, the community does not adapt to the physician.

Just because you may be willing to disregard race when treating patients doesn't mean patients feel the same way about their physicians (some doctors may struggle to relate to patients coming from different cultural backgrounds).

bessem0822 · Sep 21, 2004

Very well put...I couldn't have said it any better, even if I tried!

bostonabe said:
I believe the article is also suggesting minority patients would be more likely to see a physician who is of a similar race/ethnicity. And it is important to note that preventive medicine requires patients to see physicians BEFORE they get sick. But if a patient doesn't feel comfortable seeing a white male doctor, then they are less likely to seek out adequate healthcare. Thus it is important to produce URM physicians in a similar proportion to the number of minorities in the American population. Doctors must adapt to the community they serve, the community does not adapt to the physician.

Just because you may be willing to disregard race when treating patients doesn't mean patients feel the same way about their physicians (some doctors may struggle to relate to patients coming from different cultural backgrounds).

Darko · Sep 21, 2004

bostonabe said:
I believe the article is also suggesting minority patients would be more likely to see a physician who is of a similar race/ethnicity... But if a patient doesn't feel comfortable seeing a white male doctor, then they are less likely to seek out adequate healthcare.

Just because you may be willing to disregard race when treating patients doesn't mean patients feel the same way about their physicians.

Do we need to make it easier for URMs to enter medicine because people in the inner cities are racist? Why not change the attitudes of the public rather than promote double standards for medical schools admissions?

One of the root causes of racism is ignorance. Because of America's racially segregated metropolises, Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics spend most of their time with their own race. This lack of familiarity with another race causes interracial discomfort, leading people to choose health care providers of their own race and to avoid providers of another race.

Shouldn't we fix this problem (that also affects other aspects of society than just health care outcomes) instead of giving out more Black-only scholarships -- and maybe increasing racial tensions?

bigdan · Sep 21, 2004

Okay - I like this line of thinking, Darko. But I'd venture that even though lowering the bar for URMs is not ideal (my opinion) or even offering more minority-only scholarships, this is likely more practical, just from a sheer number standpoint. It is easier for medical schools/AAMC to "control" letting URMs into schools than it is to attempt to provide relief of interracial discomfort that has existed since the inception of our country. In social ideal, I agree 100% with you.

dc

MeMyselfI · Sep 21, 2004

and thus begins the affirmative action debates.....

bigbassinbob · Sep 21, 2004

URM's already have a much higher acceptance rate than non-URM's do, it can't get much easier for them to get into medical school. I'm sick of this topic.

OrthoFixation · Sep 21, 2004

OK, I'll take the bait . . .

sylvamoon said:
The 16-member commission said one place to start rectifying the problem was at universities, medical schools and nursing colleges where only a small percentage of the faculties are ethnic minorities,

Minorities should be encouraged to go into the health professions, in part by offering more scholarships instead of student loans, the commission said.

The commission also recommended increased funding for research about racial disparities in health, language training for health professionals and federal legislation to ensure the development of a diverse work force.

Funny, most schools have this disclaimer or similar statement on their websites:

Notice of Nondiscriminatory Policy

XYZ School of Medicine admits qualified students of any race, color, sex, sexual orientation, age, color, religion, national origin, disability or veteran status to all the rights, privileges, programs, and activities generally accorded or made available to students at the school. It does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, age, religion, national origin, disability or veteran status in administration of its educational policies, admissions policies, scholarships and loan programs, and athletic and other school-administered programs.

In a non-flaming and reasonable manner, can someone tell me how these positions are not contradictory? How can you promote diversity, give away money to minority students and still claim equal treatment in regards to skin color?

bugger · Sep 22, 2004

bigbassinbob said:
URM's already have a much higher acceptance rate than non-URM's do, it can't get much easier for them to get into medical school. I'm sick of this topic.

Where the heck did you get that information?

Have you looked at the AAMC data for matriculated URM's for 2003. The percentage of URM's who were accepted is lower than acceptance rates for whites or asians. Total number of whites who are accepted is 50% of all those that apply. For Asians, that number is 49%. For Blacks, 38% of all applicants matriculate, and 37% of Multiple Hispanics. The only acceptance rate that is higher than whites is Puerto Rican, which is 53%.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor, check your facts before you go spouting off information!

I am personally sick of ignorant a$$ people

constructor · Sep 22, 2004

i think what he was saying is that URM's get in with lower numbers, which is a fact and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the percent that get accepted. it's not brain surgery, really. a very low percentage of URM's could end up getting accepted, but their average accepted students' numbers are significantly lower than that for asians and whites.

so the fact is that it is easier for URM's to get in... although their accepted percentage might not be high because there are a lot of severely underqualified URM's that apply without much of any real chance.

bostonabe · Sep 22, 2004

Darko said:
Do we need to make it easier for URMs to enter medicine because people in the inner cities are racist? Why not change the attitudes of the public rather than promote double standards for medical schools admissions?

One of the root causes of racism is ignorance. Because of America's racially segregated metropolises, Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics spend most of their time with their own race. This lack of familiarity with another race causes interracial discomfort, leading people to choose health care providers of their own race and to avoid providers of another race.

Shouldn't we fix this problem (that also affects other aspects of society than just health care outcomes) instead of giving out more Black-only scholarships -- and maybe increasing racial tensions?

Wanting to see a physician of a similar race is not "racist" as you put it. In fact, it is probably wise for patients to do so, as physicians who come from similar lifestyle, culture and/or backgrounds will most likely have a better understanding of their health risks. Just because a white male/female has a better gpa and mcat score than a URM applicant and this applicant wants to help underserved communities doesn't mean he/she will be a better primary care physician.

You cannot solve the problem of segregation in cities by providing less to URMs, that's silly. Instead of whining about inequality in the application process, why don't you look into providing equal education, housing, employment opportunities to the minority communities who see and experience inequality everywhere. I bet if this was done, you would see an increase in the number of qualified URM applicants to med school.

I think we need to accept the fact that people are different, and we will never be one big happy multi-ethnic family where everyone trusts everyone else equally. Obviously, the different cultures in America need to work together to build stronger relationships and stamp out ignorance, but that doesn't mean we need to see each other as the same. People are different, but we shouldn't hate, distrust them for these differences.

In the end, the best thing you can do is be the best applicant you can be, and not worry about everyone else. Anyone who gets into and completes med school deserves to be a physician.

spongiebob · Sep 22, 2004

isn't the term URM limited to blacks,mexican-americans, and puertoricans?

ironey · Sep 22, 2004

spongiebob said:
isn't the term URM limited to blacks,mexican-americans, and puertoricans?

No, it also includes Native Americans and Alaskan Natives.

ironey · Sep 22, 2004

constructor said:
i think what he was saying is that URM's get in with lower numbers, which is a fact and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the percent that get accepted. it's not brain surgery, really. a very low percentage of URM's could end up getting accepted, but their average accepted students' numbers are significantly lower than that for asians and whites.

so the fact is that it is easier for URM's to get in... although their accepted percentage might not be high because there are a lot of severely underqualified URM's that apply without much of any real chance.

I'm insulted by the implication that, as a "URM", I am underqualified. Is a 3.8/34Q no longer adequately competitive for admission?

bugger · Sep 22, 2004

constructor said:
i think what he was saying is that URM's get in with lower numbers, which is a fact and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the percent that get accepted. it's not brain surgery, really. a very low percentage of URM's could end up getting accepted, but their average accepted students' numbers are significantly lower than that for asians and whites.

so the fact is that it is easier for URM's to get in... although their accepted percentage might not be high because there are a lot of severely underqualified URM's that apply without much of any real chance.

Did you and I read the same thing? He explicitly said URM's have a much higher acceptance rate than non-URM's! Does acceptance rate mean something else, except for the rate at which people get ACCEPTED.

Darko · Sep 22, 2004

constrictor said:
so the fact is that it is easier for URM's to get in... although their accepted percentage might not be high because there are a lot of severely underqualified URM's that apply without much of any real chance.

ironey said:
I'm insulted by the implication that, as a "URM", I am underqualified. Is a 3.8/34Q no longer adequately competitive for admission?

You totally twisted Constrictor's words. He made a blanket statement about URMs in general, not just you. There is not a single alternative universe where 3.8/34 is NOT competitive.

Do a search on MDapplicants. Look at the profiles of people with 3.2/28. The over-represented races get into DO school, while URMs get into MD schools.

Darko · Sep 22, 2004

bugger said:
Did you and I read the same thing? He explicitly said URM's have a much higher acceptance rate than non-URM's! Does acceptance rate mean something else, except for the rate at which people get ACCEPTED.

The AAMC doesn't normalize for MCAT/GPA/ECs. Thus if you compare members of different races with similar stats, you will see that URMs have a higher acceptance rate to allopathic schools.

Darko · Sep 22, 2004

bostonabe said:
Wanting to see a physician of a similar race is not "racist" as you put it. In fact, it is probably wise for patients to do so, as physicians who come from similar lifestyle, culture and/or backgrounds will most likely have a better understanding of their health risks.

So a URM from Palm Beach, FL has the same lifestyle, culture, and background as a URM from Compton? If this is about relateability, socioeconomic status must be included with race. It takes more than race to relate to someone. Should someone with cancer only go to an oncologist who's survived the disease? As long as you can get a good PH, you can understand one's health risks.

Just because a white male/female has a better gpa and mcat score than a URM applicant and this applicant wants to help underserved communities doesn't mean he/she will be a better primary care physician.

I agree, but this hasn't been implemented in medical school admissions. The USNews Top 15 are focused on producing physician-scientists and specialists, not FPs. Yet these schools also give preference to URMs.

Furthermore, if GPA/MCAT doesn't matter, why not toss them entirely out of the process?

Why don't you look into providing equal education, housing, employment opportunities to the minority communities who see and experience inequality everywhere. I bet if this was done, you would see an increase in the number of qualified URM applicants to med school.

I'd love for this to happen! Unfortunately, the educational establishment (teachers unions, admissions committees, etc) are more interested in perpetuating AA than actually fixing the problems that require AA in the first place.

I think we need to accept the fact that people are different, and we will never be one big happy multi-ethnic family where everyone trusts everyone else equally.

Why must we accept this? Look at how much progress we've made in the last 300 years with regard to slavery, suffrage, and plurality in leadership positions.

In the end, the best thing you can do is be the best applicant you can be, and not worry about everyone else. Anyone who gets into and completes med school deserves to be a physician.

I agree. My complaints aren't based on "how come he can get in and I can't" but rather a distaste for the hypocracy pointed out by OrthoFixation.

Here's to keeping this civil...

constructor · Sep 22, 2004

bugger said:
Did you and I read the same thing? He explicitly said URM's have a much higher acceptance rate than non-URM's! Does acceptance rate mean something else, except for the rate at which people get ACCEPTED.

didn't say he was right about that... what he is right about is that it's "easier" to get in if you look purely at the numbers. i'm not insulting any URM's... i hope you don't get insulted when you look at AAMC data that bears out these things very clearly. i am all for AA and think URM's do have many obstacles that make them score poorly on tests compared to whites in general, but the facts are just what they are. on the one hand, i'm tired of white people complaining about AA and on the other hand i'm tired of URM's teling me they have the same numbers... come on now.

bostonabe · Sep 22, 2004

Darko said:
So a URM from Palm Beach, FL has the same lifestyle, culture, and background as a URM from Compton? If this is about relateability, socioeconomic status must be included with race. It takes more than race to relate to someone. Should someone with cancer only go to an oncologist who's survived the disease? As long as you can get a good PH, you can understand one's health risks.

I agree, but this hasn't been implemented in medical school admissions. The USNews Top 15 are focused on producing physician-scientists and specialists, not FPs. Yet these schools also give preference to URMs.

Furthermore, if GPA/MCAT doesn't matter, why not toss them entirely out of the process?

I'd love for this to happen! Unfortunately, the educational establishment (teachers unions, admissions committees, etc) are more interested in perpetuating AA than actually fixing the problems that require AA in the first place.

Why must we accept this? Look at how much progress we've made in the last 300 years with regard to slavery, suffrage, and plurality in leadership positions.

I agree. My complaints aren't based on "how come he can get in and I can't" but rather a distaste for the hypocracy pointed out by OrthoFixation.

Here's to keeping this civil...

In response:

I think I tried before to say lifestyle, economics and background are distinct considerations that should also be considered. How about finding a doctor who may be more likely to screen for cancer in a patient because he/she knows the risks associated with that race/culture/lifestyle/background?

I can't say if disregarding numbers altogether would be a good idea, but I do think individuals should stop comparing their numbers to other individuals to immediately determine who is more qualified.

"progress" is a relative term...I can't say how much we have/haven't made, but I can say there's a lot more that needs to be done, and by that I don't mean we all need to work harder to become the same race/culture. Instead we need to move in a direction towards accepting and understanding our differences.

I agree, I'm not trying to attack your personal beliefs. Perhaps as physicians we can work to change the socioeconomic disparity you mentioned that create the problems we now are dealing with.

VPDcurt · Sep 22, 2004

This is perhaps the dumbest article I have ever read. It brings up such an ignorant viewpoint as to why minorities need to get involved in healthcare. It also neglects to bring in scientific/cultural facts that play a much larger role in the health/well being of people rather than the color of the doctor's skin.

VPDcurt · Sep 22, 2004

Some URMs are entirely too naive regarding this whole process though. Yes your stats can be lower, but that does not mean that they always are in fact lower. Just as a funny/not all that funny story - I was talking to a black girl that got into UConn med school. She asked what my MCAT was...I said "29, but I'm retaking in August." She was shocked and said, "why would you retake? I got a 24 and I got accepted at UConn. They would love to have someone with a 29." Yeah, that'll be the day. Not a white male with a 29, I'll tell you that much. Some people just need to get with the program.

ironey · Sep 22, 2004

Darko said:
You totally twisted Constrictor's words. He made a blanket statement about URMs in general, not just you. There is not a single alternative universe where 3.8/34 is NOT competitive.

Do a search on MDapplicants. Look at the profiles of people with 3.2/28. The over-represented races get into DO school, while URMs get into MD schools.

Perhaps my comment was meant to make some people think a little harder about making "blanket statements" about URMs? Through thoughtless comments, many in this forum give the impression that URM equals underqualified.

It's hard to be taken seriously when your peers and professors make the same erroneous leap of logic. Please give those around you the benefit of the doubt. Please recognize that each person around you has a different story, a different background, and a different set of obstacles in his/her life.

Since I now sound like a flower-in-the-hair reformer, I'll take my comments off air and remember that I really don't like getting into these discussions in the first place.

sylvamoon · Sep 22, 2004

Judging by the way folks feel about affirmative action, a lot of URM's should be PISSED!!

VPDcurt · Sep 22, 2004

sylvamoon said:
Judging by the way folks feel about affirmative action, a lot of URM's should be PISSED!!

Negative. The URMs have the most to gain from this situation...regardless of our opinion on the issue. I would like to hear from URMs on this site - what exactly about your URM status has made it difficult for you academically? Just curious.

OrthoFixation · Sep 22, 2004

Too bad AMCAS doesn't provide MCAT data broken down by gender. I suspect that the drive for 50% each Male/Female student population might open some eyes too. But that is another thread, potential sexual discrimination.

I still say, forget race, consider socioeconomics and contractual commitment to serving in medically underserved communities. However, that would not meet the PC racial quotas, since there are a greater quantity of poor whites than poor blacks due to the larger percentage of the total population.

VPDcurt · Sep 22, 2004

amk25a said:
Equating higher death rates among certain racial groups to a lack of doctors of those racial groups does not make much sense.

I agree completely. I think it's just another one of those instances where the media is trying to make race an exceptionally prominent issue when it really shouldn't be.

sylvamoon · Sep 22, 2004

VPDcurt said:
Negative. The URMs have the most to gain from this situation...regardless of our opinion on the issue. I would like to hear from URMs on this site - what exactly about your URM status has made it difficult for you academically? Just curious.

Why would URM's have more to gain from alumni preference??

VPDcurt · Sep 22, 2004

sylvamoon said:
Why would URM's have more to gain from alumni preference??

Alumni preference? I was referring to a post regarding Affirmative Action...not alumni preference.

sylvamoon · Sep 22, 2004

VPDcurt said:
Negative. The URMs have the most to gain from this situation...regardless of our opinion on the issue. I would like to hear from URMs on this site - what exactly about your URM status has made it difficult for you academically? Just curious.

Being a URM, and having grown up in a community of all URM's, the number one difficulty is that we are the children of the generation of the civil rights era. Remember it was only ~50 years ago that Brown vs. Board of Education took place. The majority of our parents were not college educated as a result of the discrimination they suffered, and many did not even gain high school diplomas. In order to be successful in the US today, you pretty much need a college education. When you have parents who can't even help you with your homework when you are young, and when they really don't understand what the SAT's are about, you are, from the start not provided with the same opportunities as the majority. You are not always well-prepared for college, let alone a graduate program. As a child you don't have the same guidance that others do. In addition, communities such as these do not have the same amounts of public school funding as more affluent ones do, so they don't have such rigorous, sophisticated coursework. I remember going to a summer program at Harvard and all the other kids had programmable calculators. I was like "What the hell are those?!?!" There are some entire communities where URM's are fortunate enough to have a different experience but having talked to many others I went to Hopkins with, I would say most of us shared the same difficulties.

As an undergraduate, we experienced a lot of racism. Even though people our generation are often "politically correct" or more sensitive (in person), older folks are often NOT. Professors tend to be in their 60's, and they have a totally different view on URM's. As far as specific examples, I could tell so many stories that would leave each of your mouths hanging open. We had 7 black men in my class, and 39 black women. Of the 7 black men, only 5 graduated. Of the women, I dont remember how many but they all stated that the reason they left the school is that they could not take the treatment of the administration.

As far as medical school goes, this is an even higher step to reach where it is more competitive, and people tend to be even more hostile. These things will make the academic situation for URM's more difficult.

Also, remember that during the process of applying to schools, you are given the opportunity to describe challenges you've overcome. URM's have a tendency to experience significant hardship that makes their applications less typical and often gain acceptance based on this. I don't think making AA solely based on economic status will solve the problem because the difficulties we face are often, in addition, by virtue of race. However, a non-URM from a rural, or poor community surely has the opportunity to discuss any such hardships as well. I recently went to an adcom meeting for my undergraduate school, and we practiced making decisions on sample applications based on scores, essays, LOR's etc. One was a white female from a poor community that discussed her hardships in an essay. Taking all that she had to overcome and everything else in her application into account, it was a unanimous decision to accept her.

I think these are really one of those issues that are difficult to understand if you are not in that position. Maybe many of you should attend HBC's. By the way, non-URM's at HBC's can get minority scholarships...

MadameLULU · Sep 22, 2004

amk25a said:
Affecting public health education requires policymakers and people to research the problems along with possible solutions. While more minority doctors may help, I think the more effective way is to encourage more minorities to pursue research and policymaking careers: biostats, epidemiology, public policy, etc (MPH, MHSA type degrees). I'm curious whether there are many minorities that go for MPHs.

There are tons of pre-doctoral and post-doctoral grants for this.

constructor · Sep 22, 2004

sylvamoon said:
Being a URM, and having grown up in a community of all URM's, the number one difficulty is that we are the children of the generation of the civil rights era. Remember it was only ~50 years ago that Brown vs. Board of Education took place. The majority of our parents were not college educated as a result of the discrimination they suffered, and many did not even gain high school diplomas. In order to be successful in the US today, you pretty much need a college education. When you have parents who can't even help you with your homework when you are young, and when they really don't understand what the SAT's are about, you are, from the start not provided with the same opportunities as the majority. You are not always well-prepared for college, let alone a graduate program. As a child you don't have the same guidance that others do. In addition, communities such as these do not have the same amounts of public school funding as more affluent ones do, so they don't have such rigorous, sophisticated coursework. I remember going to a summer program at Harvard and all the other kids had programmable calculators. I was like "What the hell are those?!?!" There are some entire communities where URM's are fortunate enough to have a different experience but having talked to many others I went to Hopkins with, I would say most of us shared the same difficulties.

As an undergraduate, we experienced a lot of racism. Even though people our generation are often "politically correct" or more sensitive (in person), older folks are often NOT. Professors tend to be in their 60's, and they have a totally different view on URM's. As far as specific examples, I could tell so many stories that would leave each of your mouths hanging open. We had 7 black men in my class, and 39 black women. Of the 7 black men, only 5 graduated. Of the women, I dont remember how many but they all stated that the reason they left the school is that they could not take the treatment of the administration.

As far as medical school goes, this is an even higher step to reach where it is more competitive, and people tend to be even more hostile. These things will make the academic situation for URM's more difficult.

Also, remember that during the process of applying to schools, you are given the opportunity to describe challenges you've overcome. URM's have a tendency to experience significant hardship that makes their applications less typical and often gain acceptance based on this. I don't think making AA solely based on economic status will solve the problem because the difficulties we face are often, in addition, by virtue of race. However, a non-URM from a rural, or poor community surely has the opportunity to discuss any such hardships as well. I recently went to an adcom meeting for my undergraduate school, and we practiced making decisions on sample applications based on scores, essays, LOR's etc. One was a white female from a poor community that discussed her hardships in an essay. Taking all that she had to overcome and everything else in her application into account, it was a unanimous decision to accept her.

I think these are really one of those issues that are difficult to understand if you are not in that position. Maybe many of you should attend HBC's. By the way, non-URM's at HBC's can get minority scholarships...

sylvamoon, i'm sorry to hear that you were subject to racism during your undergraduate studies. i do think, however, that there are so many schools in this country where URM's have all the resources and support they need to succeed. this is especially true of the schools in california (stanford, usc, and the uc's) from my personal experience. maybe URM's should be careful about choosing their undergraduate institution because i do think that it doesn't have to be the way it was for you. things have changed a lot (granted not everywhere) and i do think that everyone has equal opportunities to succeed post-secondary and beyond if they plan things well...

sylvamoon · Sep 22, 2004

constructor said:
sylvamoon, i'm sorry to hear that you were subject to racism during your undergraduate studies. i do think, however, that there are so many schools in this country where URM's have all the resources and support they need to succeed. this is especially true of the schools in california (stanford, usc, and the uc's) from my personal experience. maybe URM's should be careful about choosing their undergraduate institution because i do think that it doesn't have to be the way it was for you. things have changed a lot (granted not everywhere) and i do think that everyone has equal opportunities to succeed post-secondary and beyond if they plan things well...

Well, i'm sorry to hear that people feel so badly about affirmative action. i do think, however, that there are many schools in this country where whites have all the resources and support that they need. This is especially true in california from what I've heard. california doesnt have affirmative action. maybe white people should be careful about choosing their schools because I don't think admission has to be the way it was for many of you. things have changed a lot (granted not everywhere) and I think everyone has equal opportunities to succeed, if they plan well...

Ada2004 · Sep 22, 2004

sylvamoon said:
Well, i'm sorry to hear that people feel so badly about affirmative action. i do think, however, that there are many schools in this country where whites have all the resources and support that they need. This is especially true in california from what I've heard. california doesnt have affirmative action. maybe white people should be careful about choosing their schools because I don't think admission has to be the way it was for many of you. things have changed a lot (granted not everywhere) and I think everyone has equal opportunities to succeed, if they plan well...

Well put.

constructor · Sep 22, 2004

sylvamoon said:
Well, i'm sorry to hear that people feel so badly about affirmative action. i do think, however, that there are many schools in this country where whites have all the resources and support that they need. This is especially true in california from what I've heard. california doesnt have affirmative action. maybe white people should be careful about choosing their schools because I don't think admission has to be the way it was for many of you. things have changed a lot (granted not everywhere) and I think everyone has equal opportunities to succeed, if they plan well...

i don't feel badly about affirmative action actually (i completely support it), and most of what you say makes no sense despite a very clever attempt to substitute 'URMs' for 'whites' and 'whites' for 'URM's' and restate what i said. i think most minorities who work hard in california and passionately pursue their dreams would agree that there are so many great resources and opportunities in this state to help them succeed that you don't find in most other states. everyone here is exceptionally supportive of people of other cultures and backgrounds. the people who disagree are ungrateful people like yourself who would rather whine incessantly about things never being enough, but you don't represent the mainstream.

racism is never going to go away because humans unfortunately are not all born identical and they have certain misinformed prejudices about people who are different, but with educational opportunities and to a lesser extent professional opportunities california is probably one of the most forward and supportive states in which to be a minority. most of my friends are minorities, and this is how they feel... they, of course, have worked hard, are thankful for the opportunities they've had, and have made the best use of these opportunities instead of bitching about the system and saying it's never enough like you and the other person who agrees with you, so i can where you're coming from, too.

milliardo_L · Sep 22, 2004

Greatful about what, exactly? That sounds like a part of the animated sequence in "Bowling for Columbine"...

constructor said:
i don't feel badly about affirmative action actually (i completely support it), and most of what you say makes no sense despite a very clever attempt to substitute 'URMs' for 'whites' and 'whites' for 'URM's' and restate what i said. i think most minorities who work hard in california and passionately pursue their dreams would agree that there are so many great resources and opportunities in this state to help them succeed that you don't find in most other states. everyone here is exceptionally supportive of people of other cultures and backgrounds. the people who disagree are ungrateful people like yourself who would rather whine incessantly about things never being enough, but you don't represent the mainstream.

racism is never going to go away because humans unfortunately are not all born identical and they have certain misinformed prejudices about people who are different, but with educational opportunities and to a lesser extent professional opportunities california is probably one of the most forward and supportive states in which to be a minority. most of my friends are minorities, and this is how they feel... they, of course, have worked hard, are thankful for the opportunities they've had, and have made the best use of these opportunities instead of bitching about the system and saying it's never enough like you and the other person who agrees with you, so i can where you're coming from, too.

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