Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA

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Amit1

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I will try to keep this short.

Often times as a premed I felt much animosity towards URMs, women, and anybody else who got a little extra help due to being underreprested in medical shcool.

I used to think that people should never go to a URM physician for the mere fact that they were underqualified and had no business being in medical school in the first place. Now that I am in medical school I have completely changed my mind. Medical school is hard. Yeah, I know you have heard the same thing about your prestigious undergraduate university and all that . . . and it really wasn't THAT hard. But trust me when I say that medical school is DAMN hard. Anybody who can get through it is well qualified to be a physician.

And those statistics that I thought predicted who would be "qualified" apparently don't mean $hit. I found this out rather quickly as the "dumb black boy" and plenty of girls smoked me on my first gross anatomy exam. There I was, the extremely ORM east asain male with my steller undergraduate statistics getting buried by those who I thought were less deserving than I.

So think of this as you judge the qualifications of others. We have no business judging who belongs in medical school and who does not, that is for the admissions committee to decide. Do the best you can and do not whine, bitch and moan about how there is someone undeserving in medical school who took "your" seat.
 
I commend you on your change of heart.
 
It is dissappointing to me that today there are so many people who think this way despite being "educated." But it iis such a common misunderstanding. But I think it is awesome that you have realized this and are able to admit it. No one is infallible, everyone makes mistakes. It is those that are able to learn from there mistakes and admit them that become better people.
 
women are not underrepresented in medince, and they do not get any extra help in admittance.
 
Thank you for your post.

Many have implied - or outright stated - that "some" groups only get into medical school to fill imagined quotas, and these groups are not qualified to carry MD (or MD/PhD, DO, etc.) behind their names. Thank you for helping to bring light to the uninformed writers.

CrazyPremed
 
Medikit said:
I think AA is racism but I don't have a problem with anyone who is utilizing it, I just think it's a bad policy.
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AA is racism? Don't make sense to me 😕

And if AA is racism, any beneficiaries must also be bad for benefitting from racism, no?
 
Medikit said:
I think AA is racism but I don't have a problem with anyone who is utilizing it, I just think it's a bad policy.
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I'm going to have to disagree on this. The playing field is unfortunately still not level and I think affirmative action, while certainly not a perfect solution, is helping to make things more equitable. I hope that admissions committees have the ability to discern fine physicians-in-the-rough without necessarily having the standardized test scores (an excellent measure of socioecononic education standards, but not much more). After all, isn't this why we interview and put ECs on our apps? That way, we're more than just numbers, we're individuals too. I look forward to when schools are as diverse as the populations that we treat and that that just happens and quotas are a thing of the past.
 
DianaLynne said:
I'm going to have to disagree on this. The playing field is unfortunately still not level and I think affirmative action, while certainly not a perfect solution, is helping to make things more equitable. I hope that admissions committees have the ability to discern fine physicians-in-the-rough without necessarily having the standardized test scores (an excellent measure of socioecononic education standards, but not much more). After all, isn't this why we interview and put ECs on our apps? That way, we're more than just numbers, we're individuals too. I look forward to when schools are as diverse as the populations that we treat and that that just happens and quotas are a thing of the past.
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👍 👍 👍
 
How on earth is AA not racism? Don't put a bag over your head. Call a spade a spade and quit trying to turn the world into a million shades of gray.

If admissions committees really cared about more than filling quotas and reaching out to the undeserved, they'd be recruiting kids from rural America. That simply doesn't happen. Many of these kids grew up with far fewer opportunities than Cid E. Kid had growing up (most didn't even have a library in 20 miles), and yet they are the ones who get looked over again and again.

AA is racism. You may consider it appropriate racism, but by definition ,it's racism. You're being ridiculous to try and deny that. It generally benefits wealthy racial minorities, and generally socioeconomics doesn't play much of a factor.

Whatever. It doesn't do any good to worry about your classmates or worry about who may or may not have taken your space. It's your own fault for not netting a 38 or whatever on the MCAT.

With that said, you have a right to oppose handout programs like affirmative action that are ultimatley demeaning to minorities and cast a shadow of doubt over their professional integrity in the future.

EDIT: As for standardized test scores, there is no better predictor for class rank and USMLE scores than the MCAT. Same thing holds true in law school and class rank. They're not perfect, but MCAT scores are the best objective measures adcoms have. Far superior to grades.
 
Fed Meat said:
How on earth is AA not racism? Don't put a bag over your head. Call a spade a spade and quit trying to turn the world into a million shades of gray.

If admissions committees really cared about more than filling quotas and reaching out to the undeserved, they'd be recruiting kids from rural America. That simply doesn't happen. Many of these kids grew up with far fewer opportunities than Cid E. Kid had growing up (most didn't even have a library in 20 miles), and yet they are the ones who get looked over again and again.

AA is racism. You may consider it appropriate racism, but by definition ,it's racism. You're being ridiculous to try and deny that. It generally benefits wealthy racial minorities, and generally socioeconomics doesn't play much of a factor.

Whatever. It doesn't do any good to worry about your classmates or worry about who may or may not have taken your space. It's your own fault for not netting a 38 or whatever on the MCAT.

With that said, you have a right to oppose handout programs like affirmative action that are ultimatley demeaning to minorities and cast a shadow of doubt over their professional integrity in the future.

EDIT: As for standardized test scores, there is no better predictor for class rank and USMLE scores than the MCAT. Same thing holds true in law school and class rank. They're not perfect, but MCAT scores are the best objective measures adcoms have. Far superior to grades.
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Sure I can understand some of your arguments in theory but they lack real world applicability on some crucial aspects. Yes they are many bourgeois minority students who've had every single leg up in the world taking advantage of URM policies and this type of thing. Yes rural America is void of an adequate number of many services including those of physicians, however, you have overlooked what would happen in absence of diversity in the medical field.

I have seen first hand how relationships between healthcare providers and patients and families can go badly awry when there is no trust and no cultural competence or understanding to bridge the gap. Furthermore whatever you may think about the deserving or undeserving acceptance of minority med students they bring an understanding of their culture and people that is necessary if medicine is to be a vital force in the community. Like the OP you must let go of these frustrations and embrace the reality that medicine is only as good as its ability to serve all people.--Ben.
 
DianaLynne said:
I'm going to have to disagree on this. The playing field is unfortunately still not level and I think affirmative action, while certainly not a perfect solution, is helping to make things more equitable.
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How does that even address whether or not it's racism?

Cat's Meow said:
AA is racism? Don't make sense to me 😕

And if AA is racism, any beneficiaries must also be bad for benefitting from racism, no?
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AA excludes deserving applicants based on race alone. How is this not racism? What is the reasoning behind the beneficiaries being bad? Just because you benefit from a bad thing doesn't make you a bad person. Especially when you have no clue whether you actually benefitted from it or not.
 
Medikit said:
How does that even address whether or not it's racism?



AA excludes deserving applicants based on race alone. How is this not racism? What is the reasoning behind the beneficiaries being bad? Just because you benefit from a bad thing doesn't make you a bad person. Especially when you have no clue whether you actually benefitted from it or not.
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You're making a narrow semantic argument for a conspicuously unstated reason.

It comes down to a question of intention. I'm from the south I've seen "racism" rear its ugly head unashamedly. Affirmative action is not racism. Stop being overpolite about how you really feel that other people are getting into medical school and not you or if you have that it somehow diminishes you and just speak honestly and directly.

The intention of Affirmative Action is not to keep people from voting or getting a job or walking through a department store without being followed by Security. Its purpose is to figure out how to better serve the people. It ain't perfect but I have yet to see a better solution and no compelling arguments for its disposal. What I have seen its alot of frustrated double talk from over-represented premeds.
 
benelswick said:
What I have seen its alot of frustrated double talk from over-represented premeds.
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damn straight!
 
benelswick said:
Affirmative action is not racism. Stop being overpolite about how you really feel that other people are getting into medical school and not you or if you have that it somehow diminishes you and just speak honestly and directly.
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I'm saying it's racism. I'm not being overly polite, I think AA is wrong because it's a racist policy. What I see are a lot of excuses for doing something that is unjust. Good motives do not justifiy wrong actions.
 
Fed Meat said:
How on earth is AA not racism? Don't put a bag over your head. Call a spade a spade and quit trying to turn the world into a million shades of gray.
Click to expand...

Arguments about whether AA is right or wrong have been going on for years. My goal is not to start yet another offensive, argumentative debate in which either side learns nothing. Hopefully, I won't.

Some points that I would like to emphasize:
  • Affirmative Action is not a quota system.
  • Affirmative action not only designed for racial minorities, it only seems that way.

If, for example, a white, male, upper class resident finds that all of the chief resident spots go to female OB/GYN's (sexual discrimination in his mind), he has every right to use the resources of AA to file a discrimination suit. If an Asian medical student feels that Mormon men are not being accepted to her medical school, she can also use these resources to promote equality. AA is funded by all of our tax dollars, and is used to promote something we all should have - equality.

With that said, I absolutely agree that reverse racism is wrong and only furthers the racial and cultural divide between our (among others) premedical society. The goal of Affirmative Action is to promote equality by stopping discrimination in its tracks. Racism and true AA are complete opposites. Unfortunately, many people don't know that, or aren't willing to learn.

CrazyPremed
 
benelswick said:
What I have seen its alot of frustrated double talk from over-represented premeds.
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Over-represented premeds? There's only one of each of us.

I do agree with you, though, that the intent is key. If the majority of voting americans (who are largely white) thought it was racism, it would be gone already.

Some people do get hurt, though. These INDIVIDUALS are not over-represented, and I can see why they'd be frustrated. But the reality is that it's their stats, ECs, etc that keep them out, not AA.
 
Of course I have to put my 2cents in here. I'm glad for the first poster's newfound views. However this thread was bound to become a debate on AA (and it will be moved soon). Everyone, unless they are completely mentally blind, see that URMs as a group have suffered mass discrimination and oppression in the history of the US and something must be done about it. The problem comes when individuals benefit. That's when you get these claims of "reverse discrimination" and "reverse racism" from the so-called "over-represented" groups, who see themselves as being shut out of schools over "less qualified applicants" as if grades are the only thing that get you into medical school. This is nonsense and I'm utterly sick of these persistent attitudes among some ignorant premeds. To quickly conclude, drop the nonsense and read a book, women benefit from AA too (that's to whoever posted earlier saying that they don't), in the end EVERYONE benefits, and PM me if you got beef.
 
Women who are applying to medical school do not receive any "additional consideration" for being underrepresented in medicine. That probably has something to do with the fact that women aren't underrepresented in medicine. Go figure.

But, don't let all those inconvenient facts get in the way of your point! Please continue to lecture all us ignorant fools on the dynamics of oppression, and how something as painfully simplistic and woefully inadequate as AA is going to make the world a better place. 🙄
 
DianaLynne said:
I'm going to have to disagree on this. The playing field is unfortunately still not level and I think affirmative action, while certainly not a perfect solution, is helping to make things more equitable. I hope that admissions committees have the ability to discern fine physicians-in-the-rough without necessarily having the standardized test scores (an excellent measure of socioecononic education standards, but not much more). After all, isn't this why we interview and put ECs on our apps? That way, we're more than just numbers, we're individuals too. I look forward to when schools are as diverse as the populations that we treat and that that just happens and quotas are a thing of the past.
Click to expand...

AA is great at two things 1) creating animosity between races and 2) furthering the division amongst races. True racism will end when admissions commitees (business execs, football coaches, etc) do not CARE what race the individual is, they only care about the best person for the job getting it. AA continues to thrust the issue of race into the spotlight, when all recent statistics point to it declining as an issue amongst ALL people. EC's and interviews do a fine job of distinguishing applicants as individuals, so the mere presence of AA simply serves as a dividing line. It lowers standards by allowing minorities to attend a school with sub-par marks. I promise you that if AA were lifted, the SAME AMOUNT of minorities would enter med school (probably more, now that I think about it). However they would not be held down by lower standards, and would put in maximum effort to gain the same returns that ORM's acheive.
 
hey to all of you against AA...now you know what the world feels like for URMs. sucks when people overlook your qualifications because of your race, doesnt it?

to the OP, thats cool.
 
Over-represented premeds? There's only one of each of us.

Some people do get hurt, though. These INDIVIDUALS are not over-represented, and I can see why they'd be frustrated. But the reality is that it's their stats, ECs, etc that keep them out, not AA.

I'd also add that the frustration actually comes from seeing other applicants with equal or lesser stats, ECs that do get in to the same schools people are denied at, rather than the simple failure to enter school. The notion of having different standards for different groups for the sake of diversity becomes irritating when one does not recognize the true value and rationale behind it.

I believe that medical school is not a "right" for anyone. The ultimate goal is to produce physicians who will treat the patient and furthermore be conducive to that physician patient relationship. I believe that one's cultural/ethnic background plays a role in relating to specific groups of patients.

Everyone, unless they are completely mentally blind, see that URMs as a group have suffered mass discrimination and oppression in the history of the US and something must be done about it.

I don't think that racism is reserved for URMs. Unless you consider URM to mean solely African Americans, I'd say historically ORMs have been discriminated and oppressed to the same degree as Hispanic Americans. Given that statement, I don't see how AA which places additional pressures on ORMs can be seen as that "something" that needs address racial injustices.

"less qualified applicants" as if grades are the only thing that get you into medical school.

I definitely agree with you, grades aren't the only thing that gets you into medical school. However preinterview, I've personally found that grades are the main obstacle. Once again, the frustration comes with the recognition that applicant A's obstacle is larger than applicant B's obstacle.

Although stats, ECs, recs are not a guarantee of success in medical school, they are the measures that adcoms initially use as a measure of "qualification," at least pre-interview.

One major argument I hear is that AA reduces the caliber of students in medical school by letting underqualified URMs in while simultaneously denying a qualified ORM or TFM(the f--kin majority) students; that the best and brightest are not going into medicine. I'd say that it simply raises the bar for everyone else, so that the overqualified ORM or TFM is entering, weeding out the more average applicants.

in the end EVERYONE benefits, and PM me if you got beef.

I don't see how EVERYONE benefits. I think the main rationale for AA in medicine is not to pay back historical wrongs, but is instead in reaction to the valid concept that diversity in medicine is an important objective. To clarify, a diverse population of physicians would be able to relate to like groups more easily, establishing firmer or at least more comfortable patient physician dialogues. This is probably an overgeneralization but I still believe that the core of this remains true. Given that, I don't see how ORMs who are denied admission based on their average but acceptable credentials are benefitting from AA.

Lastly, as an accepted ORM myself, I knew especially after the college admissions process, the cultivation of diversity is a fact of the application process. I knew it, I still messed around, and I have no one to blame but myself for my course to medical school. AA seems like it is an easy scapegoat for those who are unwilling or unable to do the extra work.

I guess that's about all for my second rant about AA.
 
acl3623 said:
hey to all of you against AA...now you know what the world feels like for URMs. sucks when people overlook your qualifications because of your race, doesnt it?

to the OP, thats cool.
Click to expand...

Well, at least SOMEONE is being honest!
 
Biscuit799 said:
AA is great at two things 1) creating animosity between races and 2) furthering the division amongst races. True racism will end when admissions commitees (business execs, football coaches, etc) do not CARE what race the individual is, they only care about the best person for the job getting it. AA continues to thrust the issue of race into the spotlight, when all recent statistics point to it declining as an issue amongst ALL people. EC's and interviews do a fine job of distinguishing applicants as individuals, so the mere presence of AA simply serves as a dividing line. It lowers standards by allowing minorities to attend a school with sub-par marks. I promise you that if AA were lifted, the SAME AMOUNT of minorities would enter med school (probably more, now that I think about it). However they would not be held down by lower standards, and would put in maximum effort to gain the same returns that ORM's acheive.
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I'm only quoting this one post, because I still haven't figured out how to add additional posts . . .

For the most part, it appears that those of you against AA don't actually know what it is.

Affirmative action "allows" universities and colleges to actively recruit minorities, and "allows" schools the funds/resources for organizations within said schools to help those minorities in terms of retaining them in their colleges. It is NOT . . . I REPEAT, NOT, a quota system. It is not a means to allow underqualified applicants into their schools. It is not a method to eliminated qualified white people. There are very few schools that are affected negatively by affirmative action. Those schools are typically the ivy leagues, where there's such tight competition to get in. If those schools (and not all of them fall under this category) have a problem getting non-white people into their schools they have been known to use loop holes in affirmative action to allow a "lesser" qualified minority into their school.

Now look at that statement again . . . I said "lesser" qualified. By that I mean that yes, there was some white student that had "higher" scores, but did I say this minority "wasn't" qualified? No. That minority student is plenty qualified, but had lower scores (SAT, GPA, whatever) than the fellow white student. By paper statistics alone, it looks "unfair." I admit this is a grey area for AA, and I'm not sure I have a solution to this problem. However I want the myth dispelled that some UN-qualified minority got into a good school that some qualified white person could have attended. IT'S JUST NOT TRUE!! As far as non-ivy league schools are concerned, AA isn't even an issue. Again, all it does is allow the schools to recruit minorities and offer resources for retention. That's it. As an example I'll give you northern Idaho. Anyone heard of the KKK? Well, one of the things northern Idaho is famous for is that it's where many KKK still reside. As you can imagine, there aren't alot of minorities in Idaho. Well, the University of Idaho (and probably the other universities and colleges in Idaho) has a heck of time recruiting ANY students, much less minorities. Just about anyone who applied to U of I gets in (unless you have the worst GPA, or have a felony or something). I don't care what color you are, where you came from, or what you believe. They need students. Period. But with AA, they now can actively recruit minorities from other states (where there ARE minorities) and bring some diversity to Idaho. I assure you, this is NOT a bad thing!

Well I hope I was able to educate and enlighten some of you who have misunderstood/disagreed with AA. If you want more information, please PM me. I'm highly involved in minority affairs and would love to help out in any way I can.
 
My beef with AA is two-fold:

1) Its supporters recognize it as unfair, but justify its existence based on past or present inadequacies. However, they never establish a metric that defines when lifting AA would be acceptable. We've had AA for over 30 years now, but we're still having underrepresentation and discrimination? Please. The problem isn't ORMs, it's the system.

AA hasn't worked, and keeping the same broken system in place won't make things better. We need to fix the inequalities in our public school system instead, and wipe away the victim culture that AA promotes

However, the main proponents of AA are the same people who oppose public school reform, such as privitization of non-teaching duties and charter school vouchers.

2) Supposedly 'the playing field' for all races is even once you hit college. Why then is AA still required for graduate and professional programs? Again, is it racism or cultural attitudes?
 
benelswick said:
The intention of Affirmative Action is not to keep people from voting or getting a job or walking through a department store without being followed by Security. Its purpose is to figure out how to better serve the people. It ain't perfect but I have yet to see a better solution and no compelling arguments for its disposal. What I have seen its alot of frustrated double talk from over-represented premeds.
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Benel, you make a really interesting point regarding the intent of AA (though some institutions say it is to increase diversity-like here at UM- and others say it is assist underserved populations, two separable things).

But I would ask you this: do the good intentions of a policy preclude it from being racist?

I think it's a paradox. But I also believe the opposition viewpoint is a paradox.
 
Khenon said:
I said "lesser" qualified. By that I mean that yes, there was some white student that had "higher" scores, but did I say this minority "wasn't" qualified? No. That minority student is plenty qualified, but had lower scores (SAT, GPA, whatever) than the fellow white student. By paper statistics alone, it looks "unfair." I admit this is a grey area for AA, and I'm not sure I have a solution to this problem. However I want the myth dispelled that some UN-qualified minority got into a good school that some qualified white person could have attended. IT'S JUST NOT TRUE!!
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If Blacks or Native Americans with 3.2 GPAs and 29 MCAT are plenty qualified for Allo schools, why are ORMs with those stats not qualified? Why not make the only criteria for medical school your life experiences?

I'm not saying that URMs with those stats shouldn't get in, but I am saying ORMs with those stats should, too. What's good enough for one skin color should be good enough for another.
 
Darko said:
My beef with AA is two-fold:

1) Its supporters recognize it as unfair, but justify its existence based on past or present inadequacies. However, they never establish a metric that defines when lifting AA would be acceptable. We've had AA for over 30 years now, but we're still having underrepresentation and discrimination? Please. The problem isn't ORMs, it's the system.

AA hasn't worked, and keeping the same broken system in place won't make things better. We need to fix the inequalities in our public school system instead, and wipe away the victim culture that AA promotes

However, the main proponents of AA are the same people who oppose public school reform, such as privitization of non-teaching duties and charter school vouchers.

2) Supposedly 'the playing field' for all races is even once you hit college. Why then is AA still required for graduate and professional programs? Again, is it racism or cultural attitudes?
Click to expand...

One of the most informed posts on AA I've seen yet. Well said.
 
Darko said:
If Blacks or Native Americans with 3.2 GPAs and 29 MCAT are plenty qualified for Allo schools, why are ORMs with those stats not qualified? Why not make the only criteria for medical school your life experiences?

I'm not saying that URMs with those stats shouldn't get in, but I am saying ORMs with those stats should, too. What's good enough for one skin color should be good enough for another.
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I hate to break this to you but a 3.2/29 IS good enough to get ANYONE into medical school. As we all know, it takes more than numbers to get in . . . you could also argue that why does ANYONE with lower stats get in (not everyone with low GPA/MCAT scores are URM that attend med school). You're making an assumption that the only people that get into medical school with less than stellar stats are URM's. You are wrong.
 
Affirmative Action is a gubernatorial system to fabricate right from years of illustrative wrongs. I am growing enraged by these ill-informed forums. To assure equality among all United States Citizens, it is important to ONLY provide equal opportunity to each citizen from day one. Providing equal opportunity from a young age guarantees an equal playing field. This quota system does not work because it inherently perpetuates stereotypes and inequality. Given the proper environment, the people truly worthy of graduate school positions will prevail.
 
Khenon said:
I hate to break this to you but a 3.2/29 IS good enough to get ANYONE into medical school. As we all know, it takes more than numbers to get in . . . you could also argue that why does ANYONE with lower stats get in (not everyone with low GPA/MCAT scores are URM that attend med school). You're making an assumption that the only people that get into medical school with less than stellar stats are URM's. You are wrong.
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Sorry, I meant 3.2/25-28 -- but my original point remains the same. Do an MDApplicants search. Look at all the ORMs who got into USUHS and DO schools... and look at all the URMs who got into MD schools...

You're right, though. There are ORMs in MD schools with less-than-stellar stats. But the MD school acceptance rate for these type of applicants is far lower than their colleagues with different colored skin.

Let me repeat: I do not oppose letting in people with less than stellar stats. I don't think they're unqualified. My opposition lies in the 30 year failure of Affirmative Action to solve the problem it's supposed to solve. URMs still lag behind in test scores, GPA, etc. even after the level playing field of college.
 
30 years is not so long compared to the length of time the system we hope to correct was in place.
 
benelswick said:
You're making a narrow semantic argument for a conspicuously unstated reason.

It comes down to a question of intention. I'm from the south I've seen "racism" rear its ugly head unashamedly. Affirmative action is not racism. Stop being overpolite about how you really feel that other people are getting into medical school and not you or if you have that it somehow diminishes you and just speak honestly and directly.

The intention of Affirmative Action is not to keep people from voting or getting a job or walking through a department store without being followed by Security. Its purpose is to figure out how to better serve the people. It ain't perfect but I have yet to see a better solution and no compelling arguments for its disposal. What I have seen its alot of frustrated double talk from over-represented premeds.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. As more and more studies show, the American medical establishment does not adequately provide for those of different races and ethnicities. Medical schools in particular need to recruit a diverse group of people as well as offer more incentives to URMs to encourage their participation in this field. This is one way of many that we can address racial and ethnic disparities in healthcare.
 
Fed Meat said:
AA is racism. You may consider it appropriate racism, but by definition ,it's racism. You're being ridiculous to try and deny that. It generally benefits wealthy racial minorities, and generally socioeconomics doesn't play much of a factor.
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A point I have often made. The greatest predictor of success is socioeconomic status. I went to a upper-middle class high school with black students, hispanic, asian- the URMs that lived in $150,000 houses were scoring as good if not better than the white kids who lived in $150,000 houses. But the 'poor white trash', and the URMs from low-rent housing and low-income areas were struggling a lot more. To say that you need help because of the color of your skin is the same thing as saying that people of certain ethnicities are not as smart or as capable. A white person from the 'wrong side of the tracks' is just as likely to struggle in school and life as is a black or hispanic person from the same area. AA fails to acknowledge this. It is racism. It smacks of racial favoritism, and fails to help those who need it.

That being said, I agree that AA attempts to address disparities, but it fails to recognize where those disparities lie. I know many smart, educated, and upper-middle class URMs who utilize AA, who never needed it in the first place, but that is so often the case (and good for them, I say if its there, use it). But there were plenty of poor white kids who need it more than them (and plenty of poor URMs, too, who are disadvantaged and weren't taught how to work the system to their advantage). In Hawaii, there are more people of asian descent than there are caucasians, and yet they can benefit from URM programs and caucasians can not. I just think its sad that the 'poor white trash' from the trailer parks are overlooked. Sure, they qualify for pell grants, but that only goes so far.
 
This thing could conceivably go on forever. My two cents are as follows:

AA is in place to try to start to provide equal opportunities for those who have not had them and continue not to have them. The point is, if you are of certain ethnicity and socioeconomic background you are often screwed from day 1. This is due to the economics of where you grew up and how this impacts on the public school in your area and the focus of life. Life for many in these areas isnt about going to college or med school, its about just getting by and maybe quitting school to work. So for people that overcome obstacles such as these, special consideration should be given. That is part of AA. But we have to be real, the inequality is systematic, and we do have to change a lot of things before we can achieve a society that doesn't have to take other factors into account when dealing with things such as admissions. Most proponents of AA and opponents believe the same thing...skin color shouldn't matter, period. Unfortunately, we as a society are not there yet, there is great inequality and because of that there must be a system to help "level the playing field" and provide a more representative number of physicians as to where they are practicing (for the cultural sensitivity among other things). AA isnt perfect but it is better than the alternative. I am part of the ethnic majority, but I would gladly lose a spot at a med school to someone that is also qualified but is needed to help balance things out (even if my arbitrary "numbers" are better).
 
if you look at the numbers in the msar, you'll see that urm's are not occupying 50% of med school classes by getting 3.0/22 on their mcat. The people on here complaining make it sound like the acceptances are just flying out to anyone who is black or hispanic and can write their own name. yposhelley's plea for white trash is just ridiculous, i dont see how urm's can utilize or not utilize AA, isn't that up to the adcoms if they are willing to give more conisderation to urm applicants?

I think in theory AA isn't a great idea, but in reality even with it the disparity that exists is very significant. Also urm's are more likely and willing to see doctors that are of the same race, ethnic background and for this reason i think it is a good policy to promote a more diverse population of physicians,
 
vikaskoth said:
yposhelley's plea for white trash is just ridiculous, i dont see how urm's can utilize or not utilize AA, isn't that up to the adcoms if they are willing to give more conisderation to urm applicants?

,
Click to expand...

I was referring to general AA policy, not to medical school admissions, in light of this I think you might consider retracting your above statement.

I do not believe that AA plays such a huge role in med school admissions as people would like to think.

And a white person can declare that they come from a disadvantaged background on their AMCAS if they so choose. In fact, I have no bone to pick with med school admissions. I like there to be a guarantee that the med school classes will represent the cultural spread of the nation, because I enjoy diversity, and I think that many people do feel more comfortable with a doctor from their own cultural background. More important than having a doctor of the same color of skin, is having a doctor who can understand and communicate with their patients.
 
yposhelley said:
I was referring to general AA policy, not to medical school admissions, in light of this I think you might consider retracting your above statement.

I do not think that AA plays such a huge role in med school admissions as people would like to believe.
Click to expand...

Schools give financial aid to those who are in need, and my whole post was saying that AA is not that big a deal on the med school admissions, why i said to go look at the numbers in msar.
 
vikaskoth said:
Schools give financial aid to those who are in need, and my whole post was saying that AA is not that big a deal on the med school admissions, why i said to go look at the numbers in msar.
Click to expand...

Yes, but like I have already pointed out, I was addressing the general quandary of AA, and not medical school admissions. If you go back and reread my original post, you will see that not once do I mention medical school in it.
 
One of the things that bothers me is when people automatically assume that a person with lower scores received help some how. It's a pity that AA helps reinforce this mindset but the truth is that we do not know what factors the ADCOM considered when selecting the applicant. When we assume that a student with lower scores simply received their acceptance based on AA alone we presume too much. We are not the judges of who is deserving and who is not. That is not our place and it's dangerous and unhealthy when we put ourselves in that position and begin judging students. We need to let the ADCOMs do their job.
 
why dont you all realize
NOBODY REALLY READS THE WHOLE POST
i mean we all just log on look at jist of it all and post,right?

and besides im glad the OP had this REBIRTHLY thing i mean im sorry he/she was narrowminded to begin with but atleast now i have no excuse to throw over-ripe fruit at them..good job OP, its hard to change, harder to admit you had or have flaws, and almost impossible to face them like you did - good good good job.

(now let this thread die in peace people 😛 )
 
Actually, I read the OP's post but chose to address another issue that I found interesting.


OP- I'm proud of you, too.
 
Why is eveyone so proud of someone who supports a system that they clearly have very little understanding of? Hell, the OP doesn't even know who benefits from AA in the med school application process. Lots of people dogmatically support things which they don't understand, and lots of people base their opinions entirely on an anecdote; why praise the OP for doing the same?
 
Not another AA thread 👎 . The playing field is determined by many factors (e.g. socioeconomic level, family surroundings, connections, etc.) of which race is only one factor. Anyhow, I question the OP's "enlightenment." What makes him think that that "dumb black boy" and those other females in his class were really disadvantaged (or perhaps there's other info that he left out)? At my university, most of the URMs I have met have come from well-to-do backgrounds. There's not as much "diversity" as the university suggests. But again, I don't know exactly what factors goes into AA, so I can't comment. I just believe that the chief factor should not be race.
 
Amit1 said:
So think of this as you judge the qualifications of others. We have no business judging who belongs in medical school and who does not, that is for the admissions committee to decide. Do the best you can and do not whine, bitch and moan about how there is someone undeserving in medical school who took "your" seat.
Click to expand...

I am proud of the OP for this attitude, because it is a good attitude to have. I feel that we shouldn't let our personal feelings on AA persuade us to judge others, and the fact that OP realized this made me proud.

I really don't understand how me saying I was proud could have possibly offended anyone-it was neither a statement for or against AA.

This thread now officially sucks. 👎
 
yposhelley said:
A white person from the 'wrong side of the tracks' is just as likely to struggle in school and life as is a black or hispanic person from the same area.
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure that this statement is anywhere near accurate.
 
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