Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA

[Ypo.]

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I'm not quite sure that this statement is anywhere near accurate.

It is true assuming that the URM is english speaking. Obviously, if english is not their first language, it moots my point

For crying out loud, what the Hell do you mean, man? If you are going to disagree at least give a reason.

Nevermind, PM me.

I already gave this thread my official 👎 👎

 

[Mr. Seeds]

I am proud of the OP for this attitude, because it is a good attitude to have. I feel that we shouldn't let our personal feelings on AA persuade us to judge others, and the fact that OP realized this made me proud.

I really don't understand how me saying I was proud could have possibly offended anyone-it was neither a statement for or against AA.

This thread now officially sucks. 👎

You didn't offend me; I simply asked what I thought was a reasonable question. Many people on the thread have stated how "proud" they are of the OP, and was simply asking why they were proud of him/her, esp. given that the OP doesn't seem to understand AA any better now than they did before.

Note, also, that my question wasn't directed at you, i.e., I didn't reply to your post specifically.

Sorry for the misunderstanding... I agree that the thread sucks, but I think it sucked long before I asked my question 😉

 

[LauraMac]

To quickly conclude, drop the nonsense and read a book, women benefit from AA too (that's to whoever posted earlier saying that they don't), in the end EVERYONE benefits, and PM me if you got beef.

women DO NOT benefit from AA. AA benefits blacks, hispanics, native americans, those of races that are underrepresented in medicine.

women probably benefit in some fields such as engineering, but even here at U of M, the school all about AA, women do not get any extra help when applying to engineering, or any other school for that matter.

why do people think women still get help? i don't get it. they are not underrepresented in medicine anymore. it's 50/50.

 

[LauraMac]

Women who are applying to medical school do not receive any "additional consideration" for being underrepresented in medicine. That probably has something to do with the fact that women aren't underrepresented in medicine. Go figure.

But, don't let all those inconvenient facts get in the way of your point! Please continue to lecture all us ignorant fools on the dynamics of oppression, and how something as painfully simplistic and woefully inadequate as AA is going to make the world a better place. 🙄

thank you mr. seeds for the correct information.

 

[jdovez]

Originally Posted by Mr. Seeds
Women who are applying to medical school do not receive any "additional consideration" for being underrepresented in medicine. That probably has something to do with the fact that women aren't underrepresented in medicine. Go figure.

You are right, woman are underrepresented in medicine and they no longer require additional consideration. Why is that? Well, from the schools that I have applied to women make up 40-60% of the student body (at least for the previous year). Therefore, we are getting to the place where woman are represented adequately, if not yet in the field, in training for the field. The same can not be said for the underrepresented minorities of which you speak especially if Affirmative Action was not in place.

 

[fullefect1]

Do the best you can and do not whine, bitch and moan about how there is someone undeserving in medical school who took "your" seat.

I will do the best I can, and I probably will get in. But even If I do or don't, I will never stop bitching.

 

[vikaskoth]

this afternoon i made some posts in this forum, but MAN TEN MINUTES AGO I GOT TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE, IT WAS AWESOME, BLOOD AND GUTS EVERYWHERE!

 

[batchild39]

I'm not quite sure that this statement is anywhere near accurate.

GREAT AVATAR

pure genius

 

[visualwealth]

first of all, it is quite obvious when one attends medical school interviews that women are infact a big beneficiary of AA. Study after study has clearly deliniated this point. At my interviews I always looked at the pictures on the walls and clearly noticed that around the 1960's more and more women begin to appear in the photographs. If you don't belive me look at the 1920's photographs and compare them to the more recent photographs.... How do you believe women got in these positions??? AA. Also, there are so many programs i.e women in science, women in medicine etc. The modern white woman has become so arrogant that that she has forgotten that without AA she would still not have the access to the field of medicine that she now has. Thus, we have a racist society that makes african-americans the focus of AA in order to provide greater animosity for them among ORMs. At my college I realized that many of the URM's that tried were just as good if not better than the ORMs. And infact in one goes to the greatlyu coveted MDapplicants site they realize that a lot of minorites with good stats get rejected from good schools!!!

 

[Ypo.]

You didn't offend me; I simply asked what I thought was a reasonable question. Many people on the thread have stated how "proud" they are of the OP, and was simply asking why they were proud of him/her, esp. given that the OP doesn't seem to understand AA any better now than they did before.

Note, also, that my question wasn't directed at you, i.e., I didn't reply to your post specifically.

Sorry for the misunderstanding... I agree that the thread sucks, but I think it sucked long before I asked my question 😉

My fault. I should have known better than to post on an AA thread. I can't believe I fell for it again. 🙄

 

[benelswick]

There is of course those who will maintain a perspective that will only see what they the individual have lost in terms of personal power while some other individual gains at their seeming expense. On those terms no counter argument can be made because it is all but impossible to provide the prerequisite experience for that person to see the broader context with words alone. But I'll try this:

Imagine that all or nearly all of our doctors where white kids with the highest credentials in terms of scores and resumes or what have you. Now that would certainly quiet the clamor of the SDN crowd much to my relief on this issue but that would hardly justify the damage that would be done to medicine's connection to the community which I posit is already in plight. It would certainly make medicine less capable of dealing with the population at large and I say this from experience and common sense.

Proponents of AA should focus on its tactical advantage in engaing the public because for this there is no reasonable counter aurgument. Angry premeds whatever their opinions are either capable of addressing the needs of different populations or they're not, no matter what their resume says.--Ben

 

[IllinoisStudent]

Glad that you had a change of heart. AA is not flawless, but it is the first and one of the most important steps in leveling the play field.

Someone on the thread stated that standardized test scores are prediction of socioeconomic status. I can think of many exceptions, but I think that it has some substance. More research should be done on this. I will do research on how research can be done on this. I will discuss it with my statistics professor. Thanks for the idea

 

[BSChemE]

And those statistics that I thought predicted who would be "qualified" apparently don't mean $hit. I found this out rather quickly as the "dumb black boy" and plenty of girls smoked me on my first gross anatomy exam. There I was, the extremely ORM east asain male with my steller undergraduate statistics getting buried by those who I thought were less deserving than I.

I thought that these comments were offensive to minorities and especially offensive to Black people. It is sad that people think this way. You cannot judge a person's intelligence based on race. I thought that it was interesting that no one commented when you referred to a black male as the dumb black boy. 👎

Although your opinion has changed since you have realized that anyone who can get through medical school is deserving of being a doctor, your comments regarding minorities are still negative.

 

[Rzarecta]

Sure I can understand some of your arguments in theory but they lack real world applicability on some crucial aspects. Yes they are many bourgeois minority students who've had every single leg up in the world taking advantage of URM policies and this type of thing. Yes rural America is void of an adequate number of many services including those of physicians, however, you have overlooked what would happen in absence of diversity in the medical field.

I have seen first hand how relationships between healthcare providers and patients and families can go badly awry when there is no trust and no cultural competence or understanding to bridge the gap. Furthermore whatever you may think about the deserving or undeserving acceptance of minority med students they bring an understanding of their culture and people that is necessary if medicine is to be a vital force in the community. Like the OP you must let go of these frustrations and embrace the reality that medicine is only as good as its ability to serve all people.--Ben.

Well said.

 

[45408]

I thought that these comments were offensive to minorities and especially offensive to Black people. It is sad that people think this way. You cannot judge a person's intelligence based on race. I thought that it was interesting that no one commented when you referred to a black male as the dumb black boy. 👎

Although your opinion has changed since you have realized that anyone who can get through medical school is deserving of being a doctor, your comments regarding minorities are still negative.

🙄 Did you miss the part where he said he's changed? That's what he THOUGHT, not what he thinks.

 

[BSChemE]

🙄 Did you miss the part where he said he's changed? That's what he THOUGHT, not what he thinks.

If I read the post correctly, he said that the black male did better than him on an exam. How can he say that he has changed if he referred to a black male as a dumb black boy? He should have said that the black male and several women scored higher.

Do you see my point? It does not matter if he thought that in the past and does not think it now. It should have never been said.

How could anyone not find his post offensive to minorities regardless of when he thought it? 🙄

 

[susan96]

If I read the post correctly, he said that the black male did better than him on an exam. How can he say that he has changed if he referred to a black male as a dumb black boy? He should have said that the black male and several women scored higher.

Do you see my point? It does not matter if he thought that in the past and does not think it now. It should have never been said.

How could anyone not find his post offensive to minorities regardless of when he thought it? 🙄

I think he said it to mock himself, showing how he used to think, which is why he used the quotations...

 

[USCTex]

How could anyone not find his post offensive to minorities regardless of when he thought it? 🙄

The man was admitting a fault he had in the past to make a point and try to convince others not to think as he did. Would you rather him never mention he thought of the black med student as a "dumb black boy"? 😉

He was arguing against a prejudice and used a "sympathy technique" to garner authority with any who may still have racist thoughts and show them he knew what he was talking about when he said the black med student deserved to be there as much as anyone. 😀

 

[45408]

If I read the post correctly, he said that the black male did better than him on an exam. How can he say that he has changed if he referred to a black male as a dumb black boy? He should have said that the black male and several women scored higher.

Do you see my point? It does not matter if he thought that in the past and does not think it now. It should have never been said.

How could anyone not find his post offensive to minorities regardless of when he thought it? 🙄

No, you didn't read it correctly. How would it be offensive to minorities if he's acknowledging that they outperformed him on the exam? "It should have never been said" is right, but the fact is, that's what he used to think, but we're all giving him kudos for making an about-face on the issue.

 

[BSChemE]

No, you didn't read it correctly. How would it be offensive to minorities if he's acknowledging that they outperformed him on the exam? "It should have never been said" is right, but the fact is, that's what he used to think, but we're all giving him kudos for making an about-face on the issue.

Yes, I did read it correctly. I am not trying to argue with you. I am just interpreting it differently. He once believed that he could outperform someone based on race. I do realize that he has changed and I commend him for that. I just think that he could have used a little more tact for the sake of the minorities on this forum.

 

[BSChemE]

Would you rather him never mention he thought of the black med student as a "dumb black boy"? 😉

Yes. 😉

Think about how you would feel if you were a minority and you heard someone make this comment. You would be offended even if he thought this in the past.

 

[USCTex]

Think about how you would feel if you were a minority and you heard someone make this comment. You would be offended even if he thought this in the past.

I'm not a minority and I'm not sure where you're from but having seen racism as a reality in Texas and the south I can assure you the best way to deal with it is not to ignore it. People think like that in some cases; it's horrific. However, I would argue that the most noble of people are not the ones who never have feelings of hatred but those that are brought up in an enviornment, or for whatever reason, harbor some form of racism and then change their outlook.

Therefor to take offense at what Op thought in the past is a little shortsighted (not an insult)...shouldn't those of you who are offended by this be holding him up as an example to all others who may think the black med student will perform worse (and there are plenty of them).

 

[BSChemE]

I'm not a minority and I'm not sure where you're from but having seen racism as a reality in Texas and the south I can assure you the best way to deal with it is not to ignore it. People think like that in some cases; it's horrific. However, I would argue that the most noble of people are not the ones who never have feelings of hatred but those that are brought up in an enviornment, or for whatever reason, harbor some form of racism and then change their outlook.

Therefor to take offense at what Op thought in the past is a little shortsighted (not an insult)...shouldn't those of you who are offended by this be holding him up as an example to all others who may think the black med student will perform worse (and there are plenty of them).

If you have not figured it out by now, I am a minority. You better believe that I have seen racism. I thought he made a very positive post somewhat negative by telling us everything that he thought before he changed. You have to be sensitive to the feelings of others. How can you say that taking offense to those comments is shortsighted? When was the last time you heard someone call a black male a boy? That has not happened since my parents were growing up.

I am not sure what you meant when you said that you cannot ignore racism. I definitely do not think that you should ignore racism.

I think it is great that he changed his attitude. Good for him. He cannot be an example for others to follow if his comments are insensitive to minorities regardless of what he believes.

 

[USCTex]

I am not sure what you meant when you said that you cannot ignore racism. I definitely do not think that you should ignore racism.

Okay my last post. It's always a little offensive to some people to argue that someone shouldn't be offended by something. 🙂

You're asking him not to say what he thought in the past. You're saying he should never mention that he thought of the african american medical student as a "boy". It's like you believe the world is a better place if people only think those things and don't say them. Do you really think that? 😕 It's ignoring it.

By voicing his previous thougths he's making an effective argument against people who currently think in those terms.

As for black men not being called boys anymore and racism existing in such an outward state...I hate to admit it's true but spend some time in the rural deep south. Maybe not to blacks faces as often as 1930 but if you could listen in on some Mississippi "good ol' boys" conversations 😡 amongst themselves while they're out hunting...or try to joing an IFC fraternity at Ole Miss or Vanderbilt (its not just the uneducated who express these ridiculous views)...

 

[MadameLULU]

Both of y'all have valid points. Yeah, perhaps he can relate to people who have the same ideas about "dumb black boys", but by using that that phrase other ppl might dismiss his views b/c of the lack of tact.

IMO, I think there's a better way of expressing those same views instead of being offensive. I prefer to make an effective argument w/o alientating too many people and losing credibility.

 

[BSChemE]

Okay my last post. It's always a little offensive to some people to argue that someone shouldn't be offended by something. 🙂

You're asking him not to say what he thought in the past. You're saying he should never mention that he thought of the african american medical student as a "boy". It's like you believe the world is a better place if people only think those things and don't say them. Do you really think that? 😕 It's ignoring it.

By voicing his previous thougths he's making an effective argument against people who currently think in those terms.

As for black men not being called boys anymore and racism existing in such an outward state...I hate to admit it's true but spend some time in the rural deep south. Maybe not to blacks faces as often as 1930 but if you could listen in on some Mississippi "good ol' boys" conversations 😡 amongst themselves while they're out hunting...

Okay, for your information I live in the south. I do not live in the deep rural south but I have black relatives who have lived there. I have not heard the derogatory term "boy" used in recent years. Well, I have not heard it used to someone's face.

I never meant to imply that the world would be a better place if people only thought racist things and did not say them. I am not saying that he should withhold everyhing that he thought in the past. I had no problems with him saying that he would not go to a URM doctor because he thought that they got extra help in life. Unfortunately, several people believe that. I want to stress that I commend him for changing his opinion which came with maturity and experiencing life.

I just have a problem with people using derogatory terms which people may find offensive. Some people might think it is not offensive and others might think that it is offensive. You always have to think about your audience.

 

[BSChemE]

Both of y'all have valid points. Yeah, perhaps he can relate to people who have the same ideas about "dumb black boys", but by using that that phrase other ppl might dismiss his views b/c of the lack of tact.

IMO, I think there's a better way of expressing those same views instead of being offensive. I prefer to make an effective argument w/o alientating too many people and losing credibility.

Thank you so much. 🙂 🙂 👍 👍