Marginalization of average white males

henryjekyl · Jan 20, 2005

I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
What is your opinion of my theory?

vhawk · Jan 20, 2005

Yay, another thread where average white man succumbs to the victim mentality that has been gaining other groups vast strides and great progress for centuries!! Its so much harder for me than everyone else, but I rock so it might still be possible! Either way, make sure you respect and congratulate me EXTRA HARD cause I had so many more hurdles!

Pingu · Jan 20, 2005

I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.

Maybe she has better letters than you do. Maybe she has a better personal statement...just having the same gpa/mcat isn't equivalent. Maybe she has more life experience/volunteer stuff... You have no idea what is in your letters and what is in hers. That could be the difference.

superdevil · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

solution = don't be average

😉

Jeffy · Jan 20, 2005

Hmmm...maybe it's because you also dance like an average white male? 😕

Mr PluM · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

from your post you seem preety booring, loosen up, add some pep to your writing......this may be the problem...

AnotherDork · Jan 20, 2005

I have had plenty of experience in being an average white male, and in my expert opinion, your post is ridiculous. You sound like my father, who is pushing "codger" status. There's no way to out-think this process.

I also happen to be the best-looking average white male in the entire applicant pool though, so maybe that's why I got in 👍

indo · Jan 20, 2005

At least you've still got grandpa's trust fund!

Blake · Jan 20, 2005

indo said:
At least you've still got grandpa's trust fund!

nabeel76 · Jan 20, 2005

From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics.

You've got way too much time on your hands! Put that effort into improving your application instead.

They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average.

You are thinking way too much here. Why wouldn't they just accept the best applicants, after all this does improve the reputation of the school within time. It might also latently bring up their MCAT average.

SRQGirl · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.

Judging by your post alone and having never met your friend, I would say she was accepted and you weren't because she has a better personality than you. I should say that though I am above average, I am also a woman, so you should probably take my remarks with a grain of salt.

kikkoman · Jan 20, 2005

SRQGirl said:
Judging by your post alone and having never met your friend, I would say she was accepted and you weren't because she has a better personality than you.

"Women and minorities as groups get in with lower average stats because they have better personalities/LORs/ECs than you and are better as people"

Don't hate on the OP - I imagine it's a tough situation to be in =[

dhoonlee · Jan 20, 2005

Reckoning · Jan 20, 2005

SRQGirl said:
Judging by your post alone and having never met your friend, I would say she was accepted and you weren't because she has a better personality than you. I should say that though I am above average, I am also a woman, so you should probably take my remarks with a grain of salt.

This is snort laughing hilarious. Thank you for waking me up at work. "...take my remarks with a grain of salt." It's the blase Ann Landers!

To the OP: Seriously, dude. Seriously... If you are average, go do something you think is cool and <poof> your not average anymore.

blingblah · Jan 20, 2005

dhoonlee said:
Yeah. The OP may be naive but he doesn't deserve the cyber gang-banging that has gone on in this thread.

True dat!!!! everyone has a opinion and their own circumstances; whether it is right or wrong. lets avoid the caustic comments and help if we can.

constructor · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

you're average, what're you complaining about?

Anitsirhc · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

OSUdoc08 · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

There is nothing wrong with osteopathic medicine, man. However, your 70% is a little off. It's more like 50/50.

Reckoning · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
I am a white male and second time applicant to MD school. I finished undergrad with a 3.1 and am getting my masters with a 4.0. I have an average competitive MCAT score.
From my research and observations I have developed a theory that the admissions process is heavily weighted toward their matriculated students statistics. They have an idea of the average they want to obtain for that years entering class- say an MCAT average of 27. A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females. Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male. That leaves the other third for people who line up with the schools chosen statistical average. This tends to be a higher proportion of the applicant pool, thereby making it most competitive. These spots are even harder for males to get. Thus, these males are ending up in osteopathic programs where 70% of there matriculates are white average males. Ten to fifteen years ago these applicants would be more competitive at allopathic schools.
I have experienced this first hand. I have a friend that is my female equivalent on paper and she has been accepted to several programs. I have applied to the same schools and have been rejected post secondary.
What is your opinion of my theory? Is anyone else having similar experiences?

OP,
You are going to see a lot of this kind of "how do I get INSIDE the admissions process" thinking on SDN. It is all bunk and will not help you get into Med school. Too many people have this evil empire mastermind stereotype of the adcom. The adcom is simply a group of people trying to put together a great med class, that's all.

What WILL get you into med school is presenting the best application you can possibly put together including GPA, MCATS, Extra-curr, and essays. There is a lot of research, hard work, and creativity that you are going to need to make it happen. Talk to the admissions offices you were rejected at for suggestions. Best of luck to you.

Many people reading SDN these days are feeling jaded, battle-weary, and even dejected. Whether they are in or not. So sift through the BS and find what you need.

Mr hawkings · Jan 20, 2005

Pingu said:
Maybe she has better letters than you do. Maybe she has a better personal statement...just having the same gpa/mcat isn't equivalent. Maybe she has more life experience/volunteer stuff... You have no idea what is in your letters and what is in hers. That could be the difference.

Or maybe she just kicked ass during the interview and you didnt. Why do people always forget that part of the process. Its not just about the numbers. Personality counts as well.

SanDiegoSOD · Jan 20, 2005

From one white male to another:

GROW UP.

OSUdoc08 · Jan 20, 2005

SanDiegoSOD said:
From one white male to another:

GROW UP.

👍 Agreed.

bananaface · Jan 20, 2005

Having been a re-applicant myself (although not a med reapplicant), I can say that if you dont get in, the most constructive thing you can do is to try and better yourself and your application, rather than trying to distribute fault to the process, the AdCom, etc.

There are no guarantees in the admissions process. I applied to a single pharmacy school with 99th percentile PCAT scores, a 3.69 gpa (average accepted was like 3.61), and strong letters. When I interviewed I was average. I was shocked when I didn't get admitted. It just goes to show that none of us should feel entitled to an admission.

To look outside yourself and try and blame the fact that you got rejected on your race or gender is just ridiculous. There will be applicants who get in with below average stats and ones who get denied with above average stats. As someone above pointed out, there are other factors involved besides stats. Unless you have a solid reason to, playing the race card and the gender card is offensive to many people. I find it troubling that someone would do this.

Again, my advice is to acknowledge your shortcomings for what they are and to work on them. I learned alot in my year off. And, I hope that you will too. Think of this as lesson #1.

LADoc00 · Jan 20, 2005

kikkoman said:
"Women and minorities as groups get in with lower average stats because they have better personalities/LORs/ECs than you and are better as people"

Don't hate on the OP - I imagine it's a tough situation to be in =[

Its not that women have better personalities, its that older white male docs were sick of the sausage party and want to tap something at work...so in effect it is sexism, but not from women. Go with a gay theme, see that helps. :laugh:

MWillie · Jan 20, 2005

OSUdoc08 said:
There is nothing wrong with osteopathic medicine, man. However, your 70% is a little off. It's more like 50/50.

Agreed, in many ways osteopathic medicine is better than allopathic.

henryjekyl · Jan 20, 2005

bananaface said:
To look outside yourself and try and blame the fact that you got rejected on your race or gender is just ridiculous. There will be applicants who get in with below average stats and ones who get denied with above average stats. As someone above pointed out, there are other factors involved besides stats. Unless you have a solid reason to, playing the race card and the gender card is offensive to many people. I find it troubling that someone would do this.

Thanks, I agree with you. I have had a few years off and i have learned a great deal. You must admit the other factors in your application do not come into play without getting your foot in the door of the adcom and the only way to do that is meet their statistical requirements.
I am not trying to play the race card here, but reverse descrimination is a fact and a real issue.
This is my crazy hypothesis in trying to understand one aspect of the adcom process and I was hoping on more intelligent comments like yours. The truth is that there is no real way to understand a fairly subjective process.

bananaface · Jan 20, 2005

henryjekyl said:
Thanks, I agree with you. I have had a few years off and i have learned a great deal. You must admit the other factors in your application do not come into play without getting your foot in the door of the adcom and the only way to do that is meet their statistical requirements.
I am not trying to play the race card here, but reverse descrimination is a fact and a real issue.

You are trying to play the race card (and the gender card). To do so without any supporting reason is a slap in the face to anyone who has been the victim of discrimination, in my opinion.

If you want to know what shortcomings you need to overcome, I suggest contacting the schools you interviewed with to see if they will give you feedback. If you didn't interview, then you need to raise your stats. The completion fo the Masters will help. Until the degree is actually finished, your low undergraduate GPA looms over your head.

freaker · Jan 20, 2005

To be fair, white Protestants are the most under-represented demographic group in medical school (and law school, etc...). With that said, OP, your attitude isn't healthy or beneficial from this end. Play the system for now. If you want to change the system, you have to do it internally, which means you have to get into the system.

I'm not agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but I think you need to back your arguments up with more analysis. And I'd also like to reiterate that you can do all the analysis you want from this end, and it's not going to change anything.

medstyle · Jan 20, 2005

how discriminatory can the system be?

US population of whites: around 67% (290 million)
Med school % whites : 62.1%

US population asians: 4.2%
Med school: 18.5%

US population black: 12.9%
Med school: 6.3%

US population Hispanic: 13.2%
Med school: 7%

This is all from amcas and the 2000 census.

Clearly, asians are by far way overrepresented and whites are pretty much evenly represented. Therefore, we face the highest level of anti AA. Blacks and Latinos are most underrepresented.

You could say 90% of minority spots COULD be filled by a white or asian. So what? You are saying that giving up 5% of med school seats to "under" qualified people (since you should split the difference with asians, who perform AT LEAST as well as whites) is keeping the white man out of school?

ONE THIRD of med school students are not underqualified. I think its a pretty much a bell curve, wiht a few at the top and bottom, and most in the phat middle. Women make up about half of med school classes and their MCAT averages and gpas are similar to male's.

But as usual, its easier to blame women and minorities for having their share, or less than their share, of the pie then to understand that WE ALL are competing within our respective groups for seats. Just think, if it was purely a numbers game, how many more white guys would be in osteopathic schools? Clearly, all those spots they don't give to asians, because we already are 3 times over represented in med school, could take a bigger chip out of your pie then the 5% you're losing now.

Why are asians overreprented? Grades and mcats. So schools, who don't want a class that is 1/3 asian, have to keep us out. Undergrads like MIT, Caltech, Stanford have 1/3 asian populations because AA is not prevalent there.

So, just get ur gpa and mcat up and goodluck. Don't blame others for not getting in, we all know the rules of the game.

Just like you noticed that women seem to get in with less than you, i notice that EVERYONE gets in easier than the indian male. What do i do? I blame not going to a top med school on the fact i was having too much fun in undergrad, not the system. I should be able to get in with a 34 mcat to a top school, but i also know i was having too much fun to go for that 40 i could have earned. So, instead of noting havard has a 34 average mcat, i should kick myself for not studying to get a 40 (if i cared about going to a top med school).

MeowMix · Jan 20, 2005

I'm sorry, but to think that women get bonus points for being female is just plain incorrect.

More women get into med school these days then in previous years because...there are more women applying to med school! More women than men! And, women are outscoring men in undergrad courses, which means they have HIGHER GPAs, not lower! There is an entire national debate going on about how to increase the graduation rate for male undergrads.

My med school class is full of white guys. And a bunch of white women. And too few minorities, unfortunately. There is not a single person there of whom I think, "who let this underqualified idiot into med school?" Instead, I am constantly amazed at the quality of my fellow students. Yes, there's someone in my class who got in with 22 on the MCAT. Can I tell who it is? No way.

Focus on improving your qualifications and accept that med school applications are a giant lottery. Improve your chances, but don't blame "underqualified" people of other races and genders for taking your spot.

WatchingWaiting · Jan 20, 2005

medstyle said:
Why are asians overreprented? Grades and mcats. So schools, who don't want a class that is 1/3 asian, have to keep us out. Undergrads like MIT, Caltech, Stanford have 1/3 asian populations because AA is not prevalent there.

This is just not true. This is, in fact, similar to logic of marginal white applicants complaining about URMs keeping them from getting admitted (it's "harder" for me as an Asian to get in because my admissions standards are higher than for that other group). If you go to the AAMC and look at the application and matriculant stats for whites and Asians, you will see that they are basically the same. You will also see that the white admit rate is 49% and the Asian admit rate is 45%, and even that small difference can easily be explained by the high number of Asians in Cali, which doesn't have any easy-to-get-accepted to state schools, and low number of Asians in midwest and southern states that have many easier-to-get-into state schools.

prmd4555 · Jan 20, 2005

I have to agree with MeowMix. It is a complete disservice to say that people who are women or minorities are disqualified. It does them enormous discredit.

In my ivy league medical school class some of the best students are members of underrepresented minorities and women, some of the people who failed our first exam of this semester were white males. I really can't perceive any gender or race specific pattern for success in my med school class.

By the way, to the OP with your "competitive MCAT score", there are plenty of women and minority students who got 36-39's in my class as well as others.

BeatArmy · Jan 20, 2005

freaker said:
To be fair, white Protestants are the most under-represented demographic group in medical school (and law school, etc...).

come again?

????

cfdavid · Jan 21, 2005

Look. Give the OP a break. He's just pointing out an experience, or perception (depending on your personal viewpoint) he's had, and everyone's ganging up on him.

Two days ago, I met with an admin. officer at a state med school. I've posted another "issue" with this person on another post, but I'll elaborate a bit more here.

I'm a white guy. She was a white woman. Whatever.
The very FIRST thing out of her mouth when she started telling me about the school was, and I quote verbatim, "Not all of your patients will have blond hair and hazel eyes, you know". Well, no **** sherlock. She then proceeded to lecture me on diversity. I felt like saying "but but, I have a black friend!.."
Kind of silly, really.

The bottom line is that there are many more qualified applicants than positions available. And rightfully so, many factors are considered when admitting someone into a slot.

My advice to ANYONE would be to just not give up. It's kind of a game, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as subjective as it is if supply and demand weren't what it is. I don't care if you're f...ing purple, with pink hair. The process is a bit of crap, and this is driven by circumstance.

But, don't minimalize this guys post because you take a different position. Also, don't assume that because he's only got "acceptable" scores and happens to be a white guy, that he's having a tough time due to the fact that he has the personality of an ash tray. In fact, I'm sure he doesn't. But the process is inherently unfair for all. Again, due to the abnormal levels of competition it's inevitable.

My personal philosophy is that I simply won't allow someone that doesn't know me to determine my destiny. This will serve you whether you're a white guy, or an orange hermaphrodite. (ok, it's late).

Anyway, good luck to everyone, and just chill out a bit.

frantic983 · Jan 21, 2005

Mutt · Jan 21, 2005

I've figure it out!

Many of the Ad Hominem attacks here are, as implied, fallacious and serve as red herrings. Why? Because many of the people on here on not average white males, they are therefore the "others" that the OP tacitly refers to and cannot therefore stop their defensive offense before they stop and think. I don't necessarily agree with the OP explicitly, but of course, it differs state to state. He is certainly right in many regards, and I would think most especially in California.

I won't get into the IQ argument as there are too many idiots out there that are frequently in error, but never in doubt. Suffice it to say that Asians have demonstrably higher IQs than the average white which, in some part, explains their disproportionate representation as "medstyle" cited.

In any event, as evidenced by the simple fact of this forums existence, the medical school admissions process isn't something that can be nailed down, per se. Therefore to speculate is only a natural process of any person's curiosity, and he should not be attacked in such a childish way. Just reason with him if you disagree - why bother posting anything that isn't constructive?

DocWannaBe85 · Jan 21, 2005

Should have taken stat!

correlation != causation

Reckoning · Jan 21, 2005

cfdavid said:
I'm a white guy. She was a white woman. Whatever.
The very FIRST thing out of her mouth when she started telling me about the school was, and I quote verbatim, "Not all of your patients will have blond hair and hazel eyes, you know". Well, no **** sherlock. She then proceeded to lecture me on diversity. I felt like saying "but but, I have a black friend!.."

I have to admit I have had similar experiences, where an adcom member felt that he/she was in a position to "enlighten" me about diversity and problems with underserved minorities, presented only with the fact that I am a white male. But some adcoms had that feeling of power go to their heads. It's human. (And may have something to do with having to interview people that are often smarter and more accomplished than themselves (just a supposition here! :laugh:

)

cfdavid said:
My advice to ANYONE would be to just not give up. It's kind of a game, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as subjective as it is if supply and demand weren't what it is. I don't care if you're f...ing purple, with pink hair. The process is a bit of crap, and this is driven by circumstance.

cfdavid said:
But, don't minimalize this guys post because you take a different position. Also, don't assume that because he's only got "acceptable" scores and happens to be a white guy, that he's having a tough time due to the fact that he has the personality of an ash tray. In fact, I'm sure he doesn't. But the process is inherently unfair for all. Again, due to the abnormal levels of competition it's inevitable.

My personal philosophy is that I simply won't allow someone that doesn't know me to determine my destiny. This will serve you whether you're a white guy, or an orange hermaphrodite. (ok, it's late).

Anyway, good luck to everyone, and just chill out a bit.

My read is that much xenophobia, racism, homophobia or whatever phobia (orange hermaphroditophobia?), is rooted in fear of exclusion, loss of rights, status, job, whatever because of the feeling that OTHERS are unfairly taking it away from you or degrading it in some way. It's a game of blame. And it definitely is NOT going to help you get into Med school. NOT that I think the poster is a bigot but his post flirts with the same tired, old stereotypes.

pushkin · Jan 21, 2005

henryjekyl said:
A state school will generally take one-third under-qualified students with statistics less than their goal, this demographic ends up being under represented minorities and females.

Where's your evidence that the lower third of students at state schools are mostly minorities and women? That's not the same thing, by the way, as saying that women and minorities tend to be in the lower third on exams, grades, etc (which isn't even true, as others here have pointed out that white guys are being outperfomed in a variety of areas these days). I promise you, there are enough boring, average white guys in the world that NO ONE could prevent them from being well represented in the lower third of every med, law, business and grad school in america. If you insist on looking at it that way.

cfdavid · Jan 21, 2005

frantic983 said:
If you believe this is true, then like someone else said, don't be average.

franctic, the point is that everything other than gpa and MCAT is extremely subjective. So, being labeled "average" is up to someone that really doesn't know you very well. Although I realize that the application process is designed to find out what each of us are really about. That's great, but it can also be an excersise in creative writing.

Again, the laws of supply and demand (relative to # of spots available) dictate that the system can be inherently flawed. It is what it is. But to suggest that someone must be mearly average because they did not get into a program is not really very accurate, I think.

For inspiration to everyone; A doctor that I know very well (and a great doc as well), said that when she was applying (15 years ago, or so) "they hardly let anyone in the first time". Don't know how accurate that is, but the bottom line is to simply be persistant.

john1unc · Jan 21, 2005

First, I am saddened by the lack of respect and ad hominem attacks directed toward the OP. Hopefully this is not indicative of the attitude of the future doctors of America.

Second, I like to think that I am an above average middle class white male.

🙂 The first year I applied to medical school I was accepted to many private medical schools but waitlisted at my first choice public medical school. This year ,I reapplied having furthered my resume and have subsequently been accepted to my first choice. Coming from a background where no one in my family has any connections to this school and there are no doctors in my family, I do have many questions about the admissions process. During my first year applying, it was implicitly stated at this school that "someone similiar to myself" would have to leave the incoming class for a waitlist spot to open up for me (see legal definition of a quota). I do not believe that I was discriminated against because of my skin color, and that this "possible" discrimination affected my possible acceptance or rejection from this school. But being inquisitive like all scientists/doctors should be and while working for this state's school of government as a legal aid, I requested the statistical breakdown of the incoming medical school class based on race. They flatly denied my request.

For this process to be above such accusations as the OP stated in the opening thread, public universities need to open their "publicly tax funded" admissions to the public in order to prevent accusations of neopotism, cronyism, discrimination, and reverse discrimination.

So for all the theories placed on this thread. None of you really knows if what the OP said was true, could be true somewhere, or isn't true at all. You can use overall statistics for all medical schools to try and refute the above thread, but as we all know, not every admissions committee is the same in the procedure they use. In the end, state tax sponsered institutions should be above reproach and should be public information.

I will end on one note for all the skeptics (like me). "the abscence of evidence does not imply the evidence of abscence."

visualwealth · Jan 21, 2005

why are there so many losers on SDN that feel the need to blame their "failures on others?? For the 1 billionth time the best thing anyone can do for themself is to get the best stats possible( and umm 4.0 and 40 does not always = harvard / 3.6 27 does not always = getting into every state school). I am sick of people blaming others and pretending like they are smarter than all URM's/women/anything that is not of their race/ethnicity hat were admitted into a specific school... Most of you are in for a big shock when you realize you are just a ******* that will rightfully be dominated because of your arrogance.... Look on Mdapplicants! There are good applicants of every race that dont get into all the schools they apply to.To have sucess in the medical process involves a lot of factors grades/mcat/ extracurricular/personality/good looks(probably helps lol ) etc...

Reckoning · Jan 21, 2005

john1unc said:
First, I am saddened by the lack of respect and ad hominem attacks directed toward the OP. Hopefully this is not indicative of the attitude of the future doctors of America.

Lighten up, this is an internet forum. Not a psychological cross section of the future of medicine.

john1unc said:
The first year I applied to medical school I was accepted to many private medical schools but waitlisted at my first choice public medical school. This year ,I reapplied having furthered my resume and have subsequently been accepted to my first choice. Coming from a background where no one in my family has any connections to this school and there are no doctors in my family, I do have many questions about the admissions process. During my first year applying, it was implicitly stated at this school that "someone similiar to myself" would have to leave the incoming class for a waitlist spot to open up for me (see legal definition of a quota). I do not believe that I was discriminated against because of my skin color, and that this "possible" discrimination affected my possible acceptance or rejection from this school. But being inquisitive like all scientists/doctors should be and while working for this state's school of government as a legal aid, I requested the statistical breakdown of the incoming medical school class based on race. They flatly denied my request.

You seem to imply here that you think that race may have had something to do with your ultimate rejection. Given the subjective nature of this process I would venture to guess that you are correct. Is that wrong? The most qualified candidate cannot be determined in some strictly quantitative sense (ie subjective nature to this process). The adcom is trying to put together a class that reflects the particular flavor/mission of the school. As is stated in every admission brochure in creation, there are far more QUALIFIED candidates than spots available. Many SDN people with great stats are baffled that they were not interviewed at school X. They for some reason or another did not fit. In your case, it is likely they already had somebody like you in their class (include race, age, background, etc here) or they simply needed reinforcement to your application, which you went out to achieve.

john1unc said:
For this process to be above such accusations as the OP stated in the opening thread, public universities need to open their "publicly tax funded" admissions to the public in order to prevent accusations of neopotism, cronyism, discrimination, and reverse discrimination.

Getting a breakdown of the class by race would not prove any of these -isms. You would need to open candidate files to get at this. (grades, race, legacy status, essays, etc) And I don't think joe-public has a right to see everyone's file.

I have to congratulate you on your persistence and admit to your school of choice. Cool story. 😎

john1unc · Jan 21, 2005

I will not lighten up. I am passionate about medicine, and I hope that those who are also going into this calling would like to see it available to everyone "fairly".

and for visualwealth, i blame no one but myself for not performing upto the standards that I set for myself. At the end of the day I will be a doctor and I clearly don't see medical school as the "competition" as you do. I hope to help people with the skills I learn, and maybe even learn more about myself in the process. Does that make me less of a future medical school student or am I possibly just self-actualized and not worried about my ego?

Driven does not equal arrogant dingus.

ajt2003 · Jan 21, 2005

visualwealth said:
To have sucess in the medical process involves a lot of factors grades/mcat/ extracurricular/personality/good looks(probably helps lol ) etc...

Well thank God I'm gooooooorrrrggeeeeous. 😀

fun8stuff · Jan 21, 2005

Now I believe diversity is important, but I also think that everyone deserves an equal chance. I think selection should be based on qualifications, not race.

"Our Constitution makes it clear that people of all races must be treated equally under the law"

You don't fix a wrong with another wrong. I know not all schools make admissions decisions based on race (affirmative action), but some do. I just can't see how it is right to give preference to someone because of their race, and this is what affirmative action does. It wasn't right when slave owners did it, and it isn't right when schools do it. Most of my friends who are "minority" and have high stats and good credentials agree because AA makes them look bad.

"The undergraduate admission process involves a point system where African-American, Hispanic and Native American applicants earn 20 points on the basis of race out of a 150-point system"

As I recall, the result of this case was just that UM couldn't use a point system, but did not rule out AA. Just because they aren't using a "point system" doesn't mean they still aren't giving that much preference.

"...Michigan's undergraduate plan, which rewarded more points for being black, Hispanic or Native American than for a perfect score on the SAT."

But that is my rant... i shouldnt be complaining because i got into medical school, but something deep inside me is upset that selection on race is still occuring.

I think it is wrong for people to blaim people of other races for their own short-comings... but, this is the result of AA. If a certain person is favored unfairly, it is human nature to be upset over this. Blah... what do i know, i'm just a spoiled white male.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/15/bush.affirmativeaction/
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,460435,00.html

goheel · Jan 21, 2005

henryjekyl said:
Thus, they will take one-third over-qualified students to swing their average, which ends up being more of your above average white male.

I think the over-qualifiers are asians, not white males. 😉

amnesia · Jan 21, 2005

The white race is superior. Why don't we ever get an upper hand?

This will all succumb into the great race war... where the europeans have all of the best history of imperialism, etc. on their backs. 😉

Seriously, there needs to be awards based on merit. Just listen to Eminem's lyrics.

Remember... people are pawns and when you know how to use them, you are powerful. 😉

The anti asian law will be renewed in due time.. it was passed in the 1880s, and will most likely occur again.

goheel · Jan 21, 2005

amnesia said:
The white race is superior. Why don't we ever get an upper hand?

This will all succumb into the great race war... where the europeans have all of the best history of imperialism, etc. on their backs. 😉

Seriously, there needs to be awards based on merit. Just listen to Eminem's lyrics.

Remember... people are pawns and when you know how to use them, you are powerful. 😉

The anti asian law will be renewed in due time.. it was passed in the 1880s, and will most likely occur again.

Seriously, people who got rejected need to stop playing the blame game. This is why racism still exists. I know jealousy is part of human nature, but damn, I don't whine when i'm jealous.Improve your stats and you'll get in!!

Attentive · Jan 21, 2005

goheel said:
Seriously, people who got rejected need to stop playing the blame game. This is why racism still exists. I know jealousy is part of human nature, but damn, I don't whine when i'm jealous.Improve your stats and you'll get in!!

Judging from amnesia's prior posts, I'd just skip them. If you stop to read them, it's seconds of your life you'll never get back

Marginalization of average white males

Junior Member

2K Member

The Imelda Marcos of Path

planning my escape

Full Member

where's the love

Senior Member

Feed me a stray cat

Full Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Senior Member

maverick

Senior Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Senior Member

Senior Member

Milk was a bad choice

Membership Revoked

Pharmacy Supernerd

Gen X, the last great generation

On the wards

Junior Member

Pharmacy Supernerd

Senior Member

Senior Member

Full Member

Full Member

Member

Full Member

Membership Revoked

Senior Member

SDN Donor

Lovah Lovah

Senior Member

Senior Member

Membership Revoked

Junior Member

Membership Revoked

Senior Member

Junior Member

Senior Member

*hiding from patients*

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Member

Similar threads

hiding from patients