for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.

Could you please delete this thread and move it to The Lounge?

Im not a moderator or anything, its just Im tired of pre-allo being clogged up by affirmative action bull.

obviously this topic is "really" important to carebear. nobody has a monopoly on deciding whats "really" important.

The only way to have a change in these perceptions is for people to either:
1. Begin to ignore race
2. Realize that URMs have many individuals of superb ability

For the first point, it is something very difficult to do. I am OK (not good yet) at ignoring race for the most part and looking through color blind glasses most of the time. However, when people like allenn come up I lose those glasses very quickly.
As long as reminders of race inequality such as race based affirmative action are around, it will be hard to ignore race.

Consequently, my economic affirmative action belief includes many of these URMs, because they are unfortunately poor as a group. However, you cannot discriminate as well with economics as a factor because it is something that changes rapidly.

For the second point, as long as race based affirmative action exists, those URMs that do have the capability to excel (there are many, contrary to what allenn will have you believe), are undermined in the field by their peers. If you switch to economic affirmative action, there is no way to tell who got in because of what advantage, because economic status is a malleable factor.

Thus, I think the best way to change these perceptions is to switch to economic affirmative action. Most URMs will still be covered by this plan. I am yet to hear any arguments against my proposal though, so either many of the people defending racial AA are rich URMs or there are no good arguments that I havent already addressed.

Well, Economic AA is a good idea, in theory.

But you have to remember that Whites are the vast majority of Americans. Therefore, based on sheer numbers alone, they will have many more poor people than any ethnic group, combined.

Therefore, although good intentioned, economic AA will end up letting in more poor whites than poor African-Americans or Hispanics. Thats simply based on numbers. As a result, the ethnic makeup of Medical schools will not change, and that is the purpose of AA in the first place.

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
Well, Economic AA is a good idea, in theory.

But you have to remember that Whites are the vast majority of Americans. Therefore, based on sheer numbers alone, they will have many more poor people than any ethnic group, combined.

Therefore, although good intentioned, economic AA will end up letting in more poor whites than poor African-Americans or Hispanics. Thats simply based on numbers. As a result, the ethnic makeup of Medical schools will not change, and that is the purpose of AA in the first place.

Click to expand...

Good point, I hadnt though about those demographics specifically. But what if they did a tiered economic affirmative action. Certain "Seats" (not official) per certain groups. I am sure certain racial groups tend to cluster in certain economic ranges (for unfortunate historical reasons) and maybe you can pull out a greater number of certain races by that?

carebear, i think its only a matter of time before urms start performing as well (and perhaps better) academically than the other groups. they are in a unique position in this country because no other group experienced the degree of racism they have and they still have issues to work out in their community. it may take a couple more decades. in the meantime, there needs to be intervention at the grade school level to accelerate the process.

Originally posted by Gleevec
The only way to have a change in these perceptions is for people to either:
1. Begin to ignore race

Click to expand...

You know, it's just not that simple. Black culture is just that: an entirely different culture, or to be more precise, a collection of entirely different cultures. You really can't ignore someone's culture - it's who they are. You're forced to deal with it in the way that they interact, the values that they hold, the interests that they have, the habits that they carry...

Being from stodgy English stock, and growing up in a time of segregation in an all white neighborhood, it was pretty easy for me to echo the teachings of my liberal, democratic parents: "the color of someone's skin doesn't matter...", "racism is wrong...", "black people are just like you and me..." It was easy because I didn't know any black people. Or rather, the one or two I knew had completely assimilated into my white culture, and so truly were no different than me.

When I moved to Cincinnati, which was 40% black at the time, it was a rude awakening to the reality of race issues. I met folks who had an entirely different perspective on life, a different history, dialect, dress, different ideas on what was important... It made me confused and uncomfortable. I wasn't sure if I liked it. I felt very judgmental at times; I was....racist. Not in a purposeful, hateful way - the way that all of us easily recognize as wrong - but in that subversive, occult way. The way that is still so prevalent and so damaging today; the way that blacks argue so vehemently against, and whites seem so unable to recognize. And guess what? A lot of these same folks had completely preconceived ideas about who I was and what I thought, based on my own appearance, dress, dialect, background - many of which were pretty unflattering and way off the mark. In other words, they were racist - against me. To even begin to get along, I had to realize that there are a lot of different ways to see things, and that the sharply defined rules of my little world were not the only way, and more importantly, certainly not necessarily the right way.

Most of the regional conflicts going on are not between people of different races, but of different cultures - and it's really no different here. These issues are complex and layered, and the answer will never be as simple as just ignoring our differences, but rather in learning to embrace them.

very eloquent post.

Carebear,
I am glad that someone actually seriously addressed this issue on SDN. I don't have a solution, but I do think a good step would be to stop alienating URM students by assuming that they have lower GPA/MCAT scores. Also, if they do, you don't know each and every individuals situation. As a URM, I have felt very offended by some of the hostile things I've read on SDN regarding URM status and performance. I have a friend who is African American at Yale med who had a 3.9 and a 40 on MCAT...who went to a competitive school as a biochem major, so it does happen. There are actually URM students who work hard, or harder just to get the same grades, and who must overcome obstacles that others don't. It's not just about socioeconomic status....sometimes it's about confidence as well. As a non-minority, the probability that you will be stared at when you walk in a lab, or that people or even professors will assume you have low grades based on how you look is very low. From my perspective, some of the problems I had in school stemmed from the fact that I was treated differently than my peers...and it was ALWAYS assumed I was inferior unless I proved otherwise...and even when I did, that didn't seem to be enough. Thanks for being concerned about the situation....and remember, that as med students, we are training to take care of members of our society, and that we must be concerned about all different types of people. I think that on a whole, some URMs are discouraged about pursuing medicine because they feel they are not wanted there....period. Just a little something to make you guys think. (Not to start a riot or anything...which seems to happen whenever this topic is discussed).
Peace people.

I dont understand your point. If everyone ignored race then you wouldnt have been discriminated against. I know it is an ideal, but like all ideals it is something where the path is as important as the destination.

Originally posted by womansurg
You know, it's just not that simple. Black culture is just that: an entirely different culture, or to be more precise, a collection of entirely different cultures. You really can't ignore someone's culture - it's who they are. You're forced to deal with it in the way that they interact, the values that they hold, the interests that they have, the habits that they carry...

Being from stodgy English stock, and growing up in a time of segregation in an all white neighborhood, it was pretty easy for me to echo the teachings of my liberal, democratic parents: "the color of someone's skin doesn't matter...", "racism is wrong...", "black people are just like you and me..." It was easy because I didn't know any black people. Or rather, the one or two I knew had completely assimilated into my white culture, and so truly were no different than me.

When I moved to Cincinnati, which was 40% black at the time, it was a rude awakening to the reality of race issues. I met folks who had an entirely different perspective on life, a different history, dialect, dress, different ideas on what was important... It made me confused and uncomfortable. I wasn't sure if I liked it. I felt very judgmental at times; I was....racist. Not in a purposeful, hateful way - the way that all of us easily recognize as wrong - but in that subversive, occult way. The way that is still so prevalent and so damaging today; the way that blacks argue so vehemently against, and whites seem so unable to recognize. And guess what? A lot of these same folks had completely preconceived ideas about who I was and what I thought, based on my own appearance, dress, dialect, background - many of which were pretty unflattering and way off the mark. In other words, they were racist - against me. To even begin to get along, I had to realize that there are a lot of different ways to see things, and that the sharply defined rules of my little world were not the only way, and more importantly, certainly not necessarily the right way.

Most of the regional conflicts going on are not between people of different races, but of different cultures - and it's really no different here. These issues are complex and layered, and the answer will never be as simple as just ignoring our differences, but rather in learning to embrace them.

Click to expand...

I don't have any answers to these tough questions either. However, I've found that I have a MUCH greater understanding of the complexity of these types of issues after having taken sociology courses that deal with social inequality, race, etc. I think courses that force us to examine these issues should be required for all majors. This stuff can be very uncomfortable for non-URMs (like myself) to think about, but it's important that we do. I get the impression that many of the SDNers posting on these threads haven't heard of institutional racism or white privelege...

If anyone wants to read about this stuff from a social psychology perspective, I'd recommend the book, "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" and Other Conversations About Race, by Beverly Tatum. Has a great section about AA, although this is not the main focus of the book.

This is, So far....the best thread I've seen on SDN. What a mature discussion! Great comments everyone!

i think what womansurg was trying to say was that it will never be possible for us to ignore race nor is that an ideal we should be striving towards. our race and culture is part of the fabric of what makes each one of us who we are, and different cultures may have different values they emphasize and live by.

bump

Oh, and Tatum's book also has a great discussion on the concept of colorblindedness. While it's a well-intentioned idea, it has unintended negative consequences. It tends to ignore the fact that racism does, in fact, exist, and hampers efforts to be actively anti-racist. If everyone just ignored race and pretended like racism doesn't exist, nothing would change. The status quo would be maintained.

i would agree, and i would actually go a step further and say what will eradicate racism is not ignoring race, but is becoming tolerant of the different races and cultures and coming to appreciate what makes each of us different from one another.

...nooo.... mooore.... can't... take.....anymore URM threads..... (help)

Originally posted by CaNEM
...nooo.... mooore.... can't... take.....anymore URM threads..... (help)

Click to expand...

yeah, that about sums it up

I am a URM (African-American) who has been accepted to med school. My middle school and highschool years were lived in a predominatley white town. I had always been a very good student, but at times, I felt I had to 'prove' myself to these white people around me. That I had to work twice as hard for them to see that I was an intelligent and capable person. Part of my personality is my persistance and perserverance. So, I always made sure I studied my butt off and got excellent grades. (Even when I attended a predominatley black elementary school) I was pushed evenmoreso, because of racist incidents that were directed towards me at the white middle and high schools. My parents instilled in me that education was key. (My mom has her Ph.D in criminal justice )

I think that the majority (whites) in our society need to be educated about URMs. I also believe that other minorities need to be more educated about one another. The value of education needs to be seriously emphasized in minority homes. Parents need to find more time to read and do homework with their children. Perhaps different institutions such as the church, community centers or afterschool programs need to get more involved with our youth or need to be built in areas with a high concentration of URM's.

REPOST (so that carebear's posts makes sense )

Are there any URMs out here over age 28 that really know what life is about? I doubt it. Believe you me....your life will change considerably once you get my age. You will see what others really think about you and your race. You will see that no matter how hard you try and long you work your work will still be seen as sub-standard and you will be judged by the color of your skin and the content of your character is irrelevant. I was influential and uninformed also as an undergrad. Listen to me when I say these people have no idea what life is about. When you have years of experience under your belt you will see that you are still considered the lil black girl/boy. And for most of you you will be seen as the one token that made it out of the ghetto but will still never be considered equal to your counterparts.

Wake up and stop eating out of their hands....I am so disappointed in so many of you....but you will learn and grow in time.

Originally posted by LoveDoc
REPOST (so that carebear's posts makes sense )

Are there any URMs out here over age 28 that really know what life is about? I doubt it.

Click to expand...

So r u insinuating that non-URMs don't know what life is about? Cuz if u are, I don't need to tell u that that's a HUGE mistake.

MAD PROPS Ms. Williestyle!!!

I was raised in 100% ghetto in an abusive home, raised partly by a homosexual father, and was the product of a relationship based on infidelity resulting in me never having met my biological father. Hence the name "Love(child)Doc".

Don't pity me but understand I know hardship and my path will mean that much more when I make it.

Much luv...

kaos...that is not what i am insinuating. you won't find an argument here b/c that's not what i meant. life is relative and experiences tend to be shared by people who share common backgrounds.... that's all i meant.

As long as lots of African American people continue to idolize people like JZ, there's going to be a problem. I'm sorry, but this guy (JZ) was just made an "honorary principal" of a dozen public high schools in urban areas across the country. If I were an African American, I'd be offended because of this. Couldn't they find someone more honorable to idolize? If this is who they chose, what does that say about the people he's been chosen to represent? It doesn't say good things, I'm afraid. I can't remember the last time I've heard an African American, on TV or radio, say something positive about Clarence Thomas. There's a man anybody could look up to - regardless of race. Yet, the greater AA community shuns him because he happens to disagree with them on how to pull themselves out of the gutter. Who's sitting on the bench, is what I want to know? Anyhow, that's just my $0.02.

Carebear,

If there were an inclusive answer then I believe Americans would have discovered and implemented the solution.

I have pin pointed my contribution for changing circumstances for the next generation by not allowing obstacles to obstruct my goals. I have waited several years since undergrad to decide I am a survivor and can map a path the career and future intended for me. URMs have to lead by example. For the most part, non-URMs are not enough to influence children and adolescents to want to overcome drugs, alcoholism, abuse, etc. Peer pressure in minority neighborhoods is overwhelming. The only influence that can be long-standing is the influence of URMs who have challenged the status-quo by making themselves competitive candidates for medical school, running for public office, keeping clean criminal records and working in law enforcement, etc.

The problem is not with URMs not being intelligent enough to make the proper grades. Let me interject here and say that I do believe URMs should achieve the same grades as non-URMs to be competitive in med school. With that said the only way we are going to achieve this equality is to raise the level of consciousness and stress the necessity of education in the home. Unfortunately, ignorants begets ignorance (as someone's post on another thread read) and when daughter/son sees mommy coming home struggling after 12 hours working on their feet bringing home no money or searching the want-ads daily and not preparing themselves to be academically competitive in the work force then this trickles down to the child.

My aspirations were not where they should be as a youth. My mother was satisfied with her career and did not seek avenues to further her education. This is what I saw. This is what I knew and for me to earn a degree was an exception and not the rule.

Education needs to become the rule in order for URMs to be as competitive in all arenas as non-URMs.

Oh and Carebear...I have to run. Charmed is coming on.

But! I do not believe the discrimination is going anywhere. As early stated even if EDUCATION becomes the rule not the exception in minority homes the discriminiation will still be there full force ahead. Unfortunately, it is deeply rooted in our society. I believe it's like a pure breed. As the gene pool becomes more diverse and the dominant trait is filtered with the recessive slowly this country will become less discriminiatory. But Mr. Lott born around 1941 is part of a generation and many thereafter that are here to stay for the time being and are working hard to taint their children incessantly with the legality of discrimination.

Just my $.02

about clarence thomas, please forgive me because im not the greatest at recalling past events, but didnt this guy sexually harass a woman by the name of anita hill? is this someone people should be looking up to?

Originally posted by rbassdo
I can't remember the last time I've heard an African American, on TV or radio, say something positive about Clarence Thomas. There's a man anybody could look up to - regardless of race.

Click to expand...

you've got to be kidding me.

Huuuuhhh... Charmed is a rerun...so...

As long as lots of African American people continue to idolize people like JZ, there's going to be a problem. I'm sorry, but this guy (JZ) was just made an "honorary principal" of a dozen public high schools in urban areas across the country. If I were an African American, I'd be offended because of this.

Click to expand...

I met a guy who said Jay-zee is a lucky man. I said why?
He said b/c he gets to go up inside Beyonce.

geee....

http://www.tolerance.org/hidden_bias/index.html

The above site contains a series of tests that are supposed to uncover our underlying racial preferences and biases. Interesting stuff...

Originally posted by LoveDoc
Huuuuhhh... Charmed is a rerun...so...




I met a guy who said Jay-zee is a lucky man. I said why?
He said b/c he gets to go up inside Beyonce.

geee....

Click to expand...

Beyonce is fine, but I think she's gonna blow up in a few years. She's aready really thick. I like em thick and juicy. Mix alot is trouble.

take this for what it's worth -- coming from a white person with very little exposure to the african american community. but i think my opinion is of value, because i believe many many white people feel similarly even if they don't admit it or talk about it.

i really think a change must come from within the black population if progress is going to be made. i have never considered myself a particularly biased/racist person, but living near the projects in sf and watching the number of murders in oakland rise this year (around 104? i believe) has made me see african americans in a whole different light. i don't want to lump them all together, because those populations are obviously not what being black is all about. but, the fact is, that is what many non-black people see. after 4 murders in one year, more than half a dozen shootings in 2 weeks, someone trying to break into my apt, and the police coming to my door at 4am one morning i decided to get the hell out of there when my lease was up. i don't dislike black people or think they are naturally less intelligent than anyone else, but i can honestly say they sometimes scare the **** out of me. i hated to even take certain bus lines b/c it seemed like half the time some 14 year old black boys would start a fight, and it frightened me. so much of what i see is violence, drugs, and a culture that seems to not value hard work and education

someone, actually many many black people, needs to stand up and show that that is not what they stand for. obviously they have gone through some tough times over the last several hundred years (and i'm sure as a white person i underestimate their struggles in the past and current struggles), but they really need to come together and stop all the violence and f*ed up values b/c they are losing this battle. i don't expect any change to come immediately, but affirmative action has been in place for like 40 years. what has it done? i see black communities failing all over this country. they sure as hell aren't going to like it if i come in and say "you guys need to study and get good jobs". i don't know how/when it's going to happen, but somehow black parents need to start teaching their kids how to get out of the cycle. perhaps those people who got a boost from affirmative action have begun to do so? i certainly hope so.

let the flames begin

Word, less money one missile defense and less money on prisons, more on education and prevention. Did you guys know Calif. used to lead the country in education, but now we lead the country in prisons. That money could've gone to eduction and prevention. War on drugs, $hit, dats a loosing battle. I say legalize it and tax it. Then us the money for a war on poverty and illiteracy. Most of the people in prisons are in for drug related offenses. I'm just venting cuz my state will spend about 30-40 thousand a year to lock me up, but won't give me no money or a chance to go to a state medical school. Stop building prisons Calif., build more schools especially Medical Schools, so I don't have to go to the boonies, and scrap ice off my windshield for the next 4 years.

lolo--
must say I concur with your assessment. I think you hit it there at the end when you brought in the role of _parents_. They really are the key, aren't they?

To Care Bear's point of interest, they're arguably the largest element of a solution: Who else has such an impact on the development of children/people? So much of what children/we value is based on our parents' lead, no?

If parents establish a home environment that encourages, nurtures and values education/industry/accomplishment, chances are their children will adopt the same. Does the government have a responsibility to instill these values? Is it able to instill them--constitutionally? Probably not. But can it augment and further parentally instilled ideas? Probably so.

Bottom line: Remove the entitlement mindset; instill the idea that compensation is proportional to effort, ability and tenacity.

Reluctantly limiting myself to the solution side of this issue and raising my flame shield,

-Blue Skies

p.s. US Census Bureau Race statistics: http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t1/tab01.pdf

and elsewhere on census.gov

I think the thing that really irritates me (although, I warn everyone that I'm a Republican) is when African American 'leaders' or 'activists' refer to prominent conservative African-American figures like Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, or Condie Rice as 'Uncle/Aunt Toms', 'House-slaves', or sell-outs. What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Is it somehow betraying the African American race if you become a prominent person and are not a R&B star, an athlete, an actor/actress, or a Democratic politician? Shouldn't you be PROUD that there is the first AA Secretary of State and NSA in the current administration? Instead of calling them phonies or sellouts or propagating the stereotype that intellectual achievement is 'acting White', shouldn't they be role models?

This isn't a campaign flier for the GOP . But I think the political leadership of the AA community needs to make up their minds. Are you victims? Or are you empowered? After thirty-plus years, when do you stop blaming others for your problems and start looking at your own failures? Because the general mood of the country seems to be impatience with affirmative action and similar programs...and the University of Michigan cases being heard by the Supreme Court may very well be the beginning of the end of 'preferential' programs.