for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.

[chloe5]

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Woah.

There are some Trent Lott supporters on SDN.

Some of the posts on this thread are so damn racist (however subtle) and ignorant!

Like this quote:

"i don't know how/when it's going to happen, but somehow black parents need to start teaching their kids how to get out of the cycle. "

and this one: "i don't dislike black people or think they are naturally less intelligent than anyone else, but i can honestly say they sometimes scare the **** out of me."

You gotta love it when people begin with the "I'm not racist or anything, but" bit.

And that post about just ignoring race and being colorblind...why can't people *just* do that. Like that's going to solve our real-world problems of poverty, unequal access to health care, racism and more. It's all the black people's fault anyway cuz they're not teaching their kids correctly!! 🙄

These comments are so narrow-minded about the nature and development of people and our society, it makes me sick. I'm not flaming anybody here. I'm just expressing my absolute disgust.

🙁

Originally posted by lola
take this for what it's worth -- coming from a white person with very little exposure to the african american community. but i think my opinion is of value, because i believe many many white people feel similarly even if they don't admit it or talk about it.

i really think a change must come from within the black population if progress is going to be made. i have never considered myself a particularly biased/racist person, but living near the projects in sf and watching the number of murders in oakland rise this year (around 104? i believe) has made me see african americans in a whole different light. i don't want to lump them all together, because those populations are obviously not what being black is all about. but, the fact is, that is what many non-black people see. after 4 murders in one year, more than half a dozen shootings in 2 weeks, someone trying to break into my apt, and the police coming to my door at 4am one morning i decided to get the hell out of there when my lease was up. i don't dislike black people or think they are naturally less intelligent than anyone else, but i can honestly say they sometimes scare the **** out of me. i hated to even take certain bus lines b/c it seemed like half the time some 14 year old black boys would start a fight, and it frightened me. so much of what i see is violence, drugs, and a culture that seems to not value hard work and education 🙁

someone, actually many many black people, needs to stand up and show that that is not what they stand for. obviously they have gone through some tough times over the last several hundred years (and i'm sure as a white person i underestimate their struggles in the past and current struggles), but they really need to come together and stop all the violence and f*ed up values b/c they are losing this battle. i don't expect any change to come immediately, but affirmative action has been in place for like 40 years. what has it done? i see black communities failing all over this country. they sure as hell aren't going to like it if i come in and say "you guys need to study and get good jobs". i don't know how/when it's going to happen, but somehow black parents need to start teaching their kids how to get out of the cycle. perhaps those people who got a boost from affirmative action have begun to do so? i certainly hope so.

let the flames begin

 

[scootad.]

I agree Chloe. It really bothers me that people can't see beyond themselves and look at the big picture.

 

[care bear]

ok. so this is a thread for discussions. and solutions. i'm not saying whether i agree/disagree with the chloe/scootad line of thought or the lola/ blueskies one, but i'm interested to hear drawn-out reasoning for whatever people have to say.
oh yeah, and sorry for being such an annoying OP. 😉

 

[chloe5]

So much for the future doctors of America...
🙄

I was warned (by current physician friends) that many of my medical student colleagues in the fall will be ignorant about race and race issues and even be racists in that oh so subtle nasty way. I was told that many med students are really inept when they have to deal with poor or black or minority patients in rotations. I didn't believe it, but here I see the precursors playing out on SDN.

Thanks scootad for posting and being sensible, bold and responsible enough to state your opinion.

Originally posted by care bear
ok. so this is a thread for discussions. and solutions. i'm not saying whether i agree/disagree with the chloe/scootad line of thought or the lola/ blueskies one, but i'm interested to hear drawn-out reasoning for whatever people have to say.
oh yeah, and sorry for being such an annoying OP. 😉

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Name drop!

heh heh, how subtle.

 

[chloe5]

No biggie. I took it out. It's just that the Harvard people were particularly passionate about this issue that's all.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Name drop!

heh heh, how subtle.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

LMAO

 

[care bear]

ok. all that i am saying is that *people don't listen* when minorities are super quick to cry racism, but don't back it up by explaining what they mean, with drawn-out arguments.
and it makes sense, although it's unfair. if people truly are racist in the first place, they prob. don't understand 'what it is they said that was so bad.'
i personally think that there's a *lot* of racism that does go on by people who truly don't recognize or don't want to recognize it. so, the way we get through that, is with reason, logic, and true communication.
expressing disgust, while it may be appropriate and normal, doesn't help build lines of communication between people.
although i can understand.

by the way, i was rereading posts and i thought lovedoc's longer post was really interesting. . in fact, she said a lot of the same stuff about the need for parents stressing education, that you were quick to denounce others for saying.

maybe look back at the post when you get a chance. it's really brave and honest, and i admire her for being so open.

anyhow. . if you want to share, i'd still be interested to know your take on the topic.
i'm assuming you feel the solution to the cycle is that institutionalized racism must stop before any other form of progress can really take effect?
that's valid.

 

[chloe5]

Your writing is rather convoluted. What's your point? Are you asking me to provide a solution to racism in America? And by the way, people *do* listen when minorities cry racism. Read the news lately?

Furthermore, why are you assuming I'm a minority person? AND WTF is "true communication?"

I don't mean to get annoyed, but I'm tired of your "I'm really here to learn" patronizing tone.

Originally posted by care bear
ok. all that i am saying is that *people don't listen* when minorities are super quick to cry racism, but don't back it up by explaining what they mean, with drawn-out arguments.
and it makes sense, although it's unfair. if people truly are racist in the first place, they prob. don't understand 'what it is they said that was so bad.'
i personally think that there's a *lot* of racism that does go on by people who truly don't recognize or don't want to recognize it. so, the way we get through that, is with reason, logic, and true communication.
expressing disgust, while it may be appropriate and normal, doesn't help build lines of communication between people.
although i can understand.

by the way, i was rereading posts and i thought lovedoc's longer post was really interesting. . in fact, she said a lot of the same stuff about the need for parents stressing education, that you were quick to denounce others for saying.

maybe look back at the post when you get a chance. it's really brave and honest, and i admire her for being so open.

anyhow. . if you want to share, i'd still be interested to know your take on the topic.
i'm assuming you feel the solution to the cycle is that institutionalized racism must stop before any other form of progress can really take effect?
that's valid.

 

[rbassdo]

Originally posted by scootad.
about clarence thomas, please forgive me because im not the greatest at recalling past events, but didnt this guy sexually harass a woman by the name of anita hill? is this someone people should be looking up to?

Clarence Thomas was subjected to a overly-harsh litany of questioning and "harassment" over the Anita Hill issue. He was found to be completely innocent. He's a man of great integrity and deserves our respect. That was over 10 years ago I believe and I haven't heard that argument against him for a long time. Let's put it this way...Clarence Thomas is as guilty as O.J. is innocent, aside from the jury, Judge Ito, "the glove," etc. 🙂

 

[care bear]

ok chloe, and everyone else, i'm gonna keep it real for a little while here.

you're right, i can tend to come off as patronizing. sorry.
i guess i wanted to start a true dialogue here about what could be done to improve the academic standing of the black community in relation to others, particularly in relation to other minorities, 'cause i think that's an interesting topic. and it kinda spun off of the AA debate.

sorry if that wasn't clear.

why am i interested? because i'm a black female. it's something i think about a lot, and personally, i don't know if you're a minority or not, chloe, but i happen to believe that as others have said, racism is here to stay. but like it or not, we still have to do something to get our communities out of poverty in spite of it.
i won't go into my life story cause i don't think anyone cares, but mine is pretty similar to williestyle's.

i avoided saying anything cause i wanted to see what other people would formulate, particularly without knowing the race of the person who asked the question.

ie, is an increased cultural emphasis on education what it will take? more AA? no more racism and that's the only thing that will work?

i don't know, but i've valued hearing what you all have to say.

btw, chloe, you're right that people will listen to cries of racism to a certain extent- but in my experience many white ppl and others tend to dismiss such claims, at least privately, as just a cheap answer.

i personally don't think it's a cheap answer. but i guess i just wanted to hear you say to lola why you thought what you thought. why her comments could be percieved as racist. so she would really understand.

'cause once people start understanding, that's when they start to change their behavior.

thanks for the dialogue though.

 

[chloe5]

Hi

Two quick things:
1) I think Lott definitely knew what he was talking about, about the segregationist ticket and Strom Thurmond's history. He also made a similar comment 22 years ago. Newsweek and Time have interesting cover articles about the evolution of Lott available online.

2) I saw the movie "Bowling for Columbine" last night and recommend it to you. It has a not so subtle take on the media's role in promoting violence and the "black as criminal" mentality in America.

chloe

Originally posted by STi555


On a note of race relations. White people may become racist because of what we see on the media and in our lives. Many times in the media we see mostly black criminals. Nearly all of the black students at my school hang together and have been unfriendly towards me. I say "hi" to them and they ignore me while most other people will give some response. I hold a door for them and they don't say "thanks." I know I may be called racist for making these observations but it is what I have seen. I try not to think of it in a racially biased way. If I am behaving badly tell me how I should respond to these situations.

Furthermore, my is everyone bashing on Trent Lott so much? Have you actually seen and heard his comment. It was made at the senator's birthday party. He was trying to compliment him and say he would have been a good president. I am sure he didn't think through the fact that he ran a segrationist ticket. If you listen to his comment it is clear that he said it in a light hearted way and was not trying to make a political statement. I for one didn't even know that guy (can't remember the old senator's name) ran on a segrationist platform before.

Please understand I am stateing my opinions and observations as honestly as possible and I want to be open minded and have a serious flame-free discourse. Feel free to disagree with me and tell me where I am wrong, but understand these are my true feelings and if you simply yell at me it won't make me feel any differnt but if you give me a good arguement and help enlighten me I will be truely grateful.

 

[chloe5]

Lola's comments would be perceived as and are racist because she completely ignores the role of history, public policy and the rest of current society when describing her fears and feelings about the nearby ghetto neighbors. I assure you they want better for themselves, but often society and the environment makes honest individual and even community activism very difficult.

As Lola is an epidemiologist, she will know what I mean when I say, there are many pieces in this causal pie and she ignored most of the really important ones. Then again, to be fair, education, the family environment blah blah blah all play a part, but blaming the individual and the victim is not the answer. Further, to post so carlessly and narrowly as some people have done on this thread is a disservice to your (care bear's) proposed purposes.

Originally posted by care bear
ok chloe, and everyone else, i'm gonna keep it real for a little while here.

you're right, i can tend to come off as patronizing. sorry.
i guess i wanted to start a true dialogue here about what could be done to improve the academic standing of the black community in relation to others, particularly in relation to other minorities, 'cause i think that's an interesting topic. and it kinda spun off of the AA debate.

sorry if that wasn't clear.

why am i interested? because i'm a black female. it's something i think about a lot, and personally, i don't know if you're a minority or not, chloe, but i happen to believe that as others have said, racism is here to stay. but like it or not, we still have to do something to get our communities out of poverty in spite of it.
i won't go into my life story cause i don't think anyone cares, but mine is pretty similar to williestyle's.

i avoided saying anything cause i wanted to see what other people would formulate, particularly without knowing the race of the person who asked the question.

ie, is an increased cultural emphasis on education what it will take? more AA? no more racism and that's the only thing that will work?

i don't know, but i've valued hearing what you all have to say.

btw, chloe, you're right that people will listen to cries of racism to a certain extent- but in my experience many white ppl and others tend to dismiss such claims, at least privately, as just a cheap answer.

i personally don't think it's a cheap answer. but i guess i just wanted to hear you say to lola why you thought what you thought. why her comments could be percieved as racist. so she would really understand.

'cause once people start understanding, that's when they start to change their behavior.

thanks for the dialogue though.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by chloe5

It's all the black people's fault anyway cuz they're not teaching their kids correctly!! 🙄

i'm not saying it's their fault. i just believe it's time they take control of the situation. they may be in this predicament due to racism, but killing each other and not placing value on education is leading them nowhere. if they don't do something themselves, they may end up worse off than they were 20 years ago. if you want, we can ignore the situation and let them kill each other off 🙄 again, i want to say that i realize this is a small percentage of the aa population, but it is what we usually see on tv and in movies and in the news and on our streets. this is how white people get it in their heads that they are different from black people or that black people are lazy/violent/etc...

you can call me racist if you want. i'll be the first to admit i have all kinds of biases (as does every single person on this earth), but i prefer to say that i'm honest with myself and how i feel unlike most people. most people wouldn't have the balls to say that some black people scare them. these people would just be kidding themselves if they had lived where i lived or had worked where i worked and said they didn't feel threatened at times.

what is wrong with the solution that it needs to begin at home? the fact is it DOES. it may sound to you like i'm preaching/arrogant/can't relate b/c i'm white, but i don't see why this is such a terrible solution. why are other minority groups thriving so much more than much of the african american community? most of the time i'd say it's because they are getting messages from home that encourage them to work hard. other things can be done as well which will help such as giving money to improve schools as someone else noted before, but teaching kids to value education and work hard to try to improve the situation is really the only way that things are going to change.


p.s. the only way to make a biased person change their viewpoint is if that person is honest with themselves and why they feel the way they do. those who say they're not biased at all will never change. they'll just keep on feeling the way they feel, in secret. this is the way for no progress to be made.

 

[care bear]

now that everyone knows my race, i'll share some of my gut responses to some of the things people have said here.

lola, if you're scared by black youth, can you imagine what it was like for our generation's parents to be growing up and scared literally to death of white people? especially in the south.
those same parents, who had to face spit in their faces, lynchings- yes, lynchings!- and other inhuman cruelties, raised those children that you spoke of , STi555, who you feel offended by when they don't say thanks when they open a door for you.

it's not easy for us as a culture to trust 'the sytem'- education, health care, etc- when so many people have been cruelly treated by it. tuskegee study. segregated schools that were laughable in their inequality. 'integrated' schools today that are still laughable in the comparable $$ and time they allot to black students.

when people speak of AA being implemented 40 years ago, it is very easy to forget that 40 years ago is not such a long time, compared to 400 years of slavery.

i'm staunchly convinced of the injustice that has been perpetuated against blacks. i think it is really worse than no other crime in American history, besides the genocide of American Indians which rates up there exactly. (yeah, i'm part native also. )

however, i am also very concerned with proactive solutions. see, i'm so convinced of racism that i think while it's nice to try to break it down, it's not gonna be the thing to give first.

i kinda think that what has to give first is that we have to prove ourselves. and no, racism won't even stop then. and *it's not fair*. i wanna make it clear that i think that it's not fair. it's not fair that i got into yale with-i won't say my HS stats 'cause that's just annoying- but yeah. on merit. i'm yale-educated, and still when i go to visit my parents, and walk around in the drugstore, the cop that they have placed there (it's in a black neighborhood, of course) follows me.

so i don't think it's fair. but i still think we gotta improve ourselves *while* we complain. otherwise, honestly, i just don't think anyone really listens.

 

[LoveDoc]

Black people are in a world all their own.

It's clear when people state URM they group African-Americans in a separate race all their own. I don't feel the need to justify this statement. The justification has been made in the previous posts of "they scare the ****" out of me etc.

In a perfect world, African-Americans (AAs) would be able to pull themselves out of this cycle of poverty, miseducation, and societal deterioration on their own. They would build their own schools, teach their own curriculum, foster moral and ethical teachings at home....but.....people wake up. It ain't gonna happen like that.

AAs need the assistance of mainstream American to raise their children. So much negativity and mal decisions have been instituted in our society negatively impacting the majority AAs life that short of divine intervention a change is in order.

Mainstream America ( like ol LOTT ) need to take some ownership and realize that their convulted doctrines are murdering our people daily. They don't want to help us. They only want patronize us with worthless apologies. We need more than that. We need a revolution in culture to change. Stop looking of AAs as failures. Take responsibility for the wrong inflicted on AAs since slavery and go into the AAs communities and bring a child out with you. Let him see your lifestyle. Don't give up until he sees what a difference you can make. I stated earlier that non-URMs cannot impact the life of up and coming URMs. This is true if they don't change their "mindset". But if mainstream America could humble themselves and realize their father's wrongs are a major impact of the state of AAs today and we are all the same race then they can be a positive influence.

And you AA Republicans make my abdomen's acidity level increase. Pick a party or no party at all but not one that leaves your people in bondage, please.

 

[LoveDoc]

I can only hug LOLA and shake my head. This is the exact mentality that made Lott make his comment(s). This is exactly why we are in the state we are in today. This is exactly why Black people have to work 2x as hard to get promotions. This is exactly why URM stats are lower than non-URM stats.

Mainstream America does not look at the state of the black race as their own problem.

And by the way, I spent time volunteering in the local girl's prison and will have you know the white teens are just as violent as the black teens. They are known to steal your car, fill up on gas, pull away from the gas station without paying and sleep with a different boy every night as much as the next black teen. So....don't fool yourself into thinking that African-americans are sooooo much scarier.

 

[14931]

crap i dont believe i am replying but here goes:

i have to disagree with u lola, am sure u are not a racist and u are entitled to ur opinions and all, but u forget that black people are in the situation they are in because they were forced there, in slavery, sure now that there is no longer any slavery, u would think they would be better off but who is helping them? if they live in ghetto places, its because most of them dont have a choice, and i am just as sure that many of them try to workhard and make it but to understand the frustations of being a black person and trying to overcome all the stigma, u have to be a balck person ur self.

u say u watch tv about police and everything, well then i am pretty sure u here about all the people that are getting released from jail after being found guity about 20 years ago for something they didnt do. if u watch tv or read the news, then u will realise that most of those people are black people, they were just at the wrong place at the worng time, and they were arrested because of who they represent not who they are.

u ask why other minorities are thriving? well maybe u dont know why the african americans are not.... because they are Black.

 

[cabruen]

Originally posted by chloe5

2) I saw the movie "Bowling for Columbine" last night and recommend it to you. It has a not so subtle take on the media's role in promoting violence and the "black as criminal" mentality in America.

Boy I hate to get involved in this thread, but this statement just hit to close to home. I believe that the media acts as an amplification for all of humanities worst impulses. The media is the kindling that stokes the fires of racism, bigotry, sexism, consumerism, and especially the propagation of violence.

The American industrial-entertainment complex has pretty much replaced parents, elders, society, and the church as the maker and enforcer of values on this continent.

Filmmaker George Miller, of Mad Max and Babe fame, observes: "As a practicing storyteller, I could hardly fail to observe that movies and TV impinge on behavior . . . if movies and television influenced the way we talk, the way we move, the way we play as children, how can we also say it doesn't affect our behavior at a moral or cognitive level?" Obviously the degree to which different people are affected at different times varies. We may become caught up in a particular trend in dress -- and notice that we have done so. Or we may thoroughly immerse ourselves in, for example, the Rocky Horror Picture Show cult. Most of our identifications are harmless enough in themselves most of the time. The problem lies in the fact that we are probably affected much more often and more deeply than we know.

Entertainment has become the latest and greatest drug of choice. Audiences now pop the illusion tablet with hardly a second thought, many times a day. Just imagine the ancient Greeks watching their tragedies and comedies every day, all day, throughout the year.

At key historical moments, societies have woken to destructive or self-destructive practices and have begun the long and arduous task of reversing the damage. Cigarette smoking, racial prejudice and vilification, and child abuse are recent examples. Now it is time to take a good, hard look at the illusion industry's open slather, which, unnoticed, has been disintegrating individual and society alike.

by Gunduz Kalic (excerted)

TV executives claim (to Congress and other watchdog agencies) that they don't influence people's behavior, and they're certainly not responsible for the way viewers might respond in any emotionally charged, potentially violent circumstance they may find themselves in. And yet at the same time, to their all-important sponsors, they claim that just a few well-placed seconds can control how America will spend its money.

 

[lola]

i know i ignored history. that was not at all my point, though. my point is is that there comes a time when people need to DO something. of course it's going to be very very difficult, and of course black people have been treated like crap for years and years. but really, do you think they're going to get very far playing that card? it hasn't worked all that well thus far. i may sound uncaring, racist, and like i can't relate, but i honestly think things will not change for the better if all people do is sit back and talk about the past. when did that ever work?

 

[LoveDoc]

i won't go into my life story cause i don't think anyone cares, but mine is pretty similar to williestyle's

carebear....u r wrong. i do care.

i think it's helpful if we can make a coorelation between URMs who came from well to do backgrounds and make better decisions resulting in higher stats leading to immediate admission into med school (like williestyle!!!)....

compared to those URMs like me who had life exxxxxtremely rough and are looking for their 2nd chance.

This may shed some light on the reports we read done by so many educational instituitions.

Please share if you'd like.

😍

 

[LoveDoc]

but really, do you think they're going to get very far playing that card?

Lola,

What are you going to do to improve the situation for African-American's in your community to ensure your children have "safer" neighborhoods to play in?

 

[UCSBMed1]

immediatespring, I couldn't have said it better myself.

lola, I know you mean well, but there are just deeper issues at hand here.

I am an African-American male from Northern California. I grew up in an ethnically diverse population, and attended fairly good schools. I was the first one in my family to apply to college, and definately the first to apply to med school...etc.

The reason why my people are in the state that they are in is based on the system. I know we need to stop blaming the system and try to fix it, but thats what it is. Housing is despicable, its hard for many African-Americans to find jobs, and they face discrimination and alienation on a daily basis from whites.

When African-Americans hang out with each other and are not nice to whites, its not because they hate white people, but because they have grown up with knowing that many white people do not like THEM, so why should they be nice to them?

I don't feel this way, as I didn't grow up like that. But I can see where they are coming from, because although I am not poor, or live in a "ghetto," I am black, and I know what being discriminated feels like.

At UC Santa Barbara, where I go to school, there are LITERALLY 4 black people in all my microbiology classes. Thats a d*mn shame. Its not because we are "stupid" or don't like science, but because the system has not given our schools appropriate funding to attract those good teachers, and get those new textbooks, so that our students want to go to college. Because our government views their schools' funding as unimportant, many African-Americans view school in the same way, leading to them not going, and the high crime rates.

You see, this problem is far deeper than you (lola) thinking Blacks aren't trying to better themselves. They are...its just that many of them have given up, because it seems like so much is stacked against them. And until our government is able to provide better funding and send a message out to the community that they are willing to help them, nothing will change.

You wanna know the reason that other races are able to achieve so much when blacks seem to be lagging behind? No other race has a 400 year history of Institutionalized Racism like African-Americans do. Its hard to overcome something like that. And it makes me sad.

 

[lola]

what am i going to do? well, first of all i moved, so there are no longer very many aa's in my community and the playgrounds are quite a bit safer where i live now. but that's not what you were looking for. honestly, i knew the projects were down the street when i moved in and thought it would be no big deal. i guess i was wrong though, because there was so much violence going on and it really wasn't safe for me there.

i'll do whatever. every sunday i go to the hospital and hold babies whose parents are not around or are drug addicted or in prison etc..., many of which are african american. i wanted to work on a project to reduce infant mortality in aa communities, but as i explained earlier i wasn't "ethnic" enough to work on the project. what can i do really? contrary to popular belief that i support trent lott i vote democrat, which might possibly help. i was thinking of signing up to be a big sister (which i didn't have time for in the end), but you know, they want big sisters to be the same race as the child! i'll be glad to help whoever comes through my office door when i'm a doctor. i taught people about colon cancer risk at a previous job, and believe it or not, i enjoyed working with aa's more than any other race/ethnic group i encountered and believe that in general they learned more about it than most people i worked with.

that's what i'm doing.

 

[chloe5]

white flight!
white flight!

The Lott comment was in fact a joke.

Originally posted by lola
what am i going to do? well, first of all i moved, so there are no longer very many aa's in my community and the playgrounds are quite a bit safer where i live now. but that's not what you were looking for. honestly, i knew the projects were down the street when i moved in and thought it would be no big deal. i guess i was wrong though, because there was so much violence going on and it really wasn't safe for me there.

i'll do whatever. every sunday i go to the hospital and hold babies whose parents are not around or are drug addicted or in prison etc..., many of which are african american. i wanted to work on a project to reduce infant mortality in aa communities, but as i explained earlier i wasn't "ethnic" enough to work on the project. what can i do really? contrary to popular belief that i support trent lott i vote democrat, which might possibly help. i was thinking of signing up to be a big sister (which i didn't have time for in the end), but you know, they want big sisters to be the same race as the child! i'll be glad to help whoever comes through my office door when i'm a doctor. i taught people about colon cancer risk at a previous job, and believe it or not, i enjoyed working with aa's more than any other race/ethnic group i encountered and believe that in general they learned more about it than most people i worked with.

that's what i'm doing.

 

[care bear]

ok. . .my father's family was sharecroppers in NC, my mother's family was your average poor black urban (moved north when they were young) black (actually, mixed but no one cared then as long as you were brown-skinned 🙄 ) family.

from what they have told me, both sets of my grandparents just really pushed education.
and, my dad had the chance to go to one of the very first integrated schools in NC, which of course had a lot of better facilites, etc, which probably helped him get into UNC-CH, and then med school.

some of my aunts and uncles have done really well, some not so well, the last thing i would ever do would be to blame them or their children, my cousins for their situation. i do think mainstream America has a huge responsibility. i don't even have any idea what they lived thru, and i'm black and from NC.

but i do think that what set my parents apart was their faith in God and the way they have of trusting God to right injustices in the end, but working as hard as they can now to make life better for themselves and their children (me.)

maybe it's the sellout way- but i am so, so grateful to them.
they have given me such a good life.

my mom believes in education so much and she works in the schools now. she was probation officer when she was younger, then went back and got degree in education cuz she said she was tired of working w/black kids after they got in trouble; she wanted to help them suceed before they were able to get in trouble.

and my father serves the section of the city i'm from (they didn't raise me in a suburb) almost exclusively, his patients are 90% black or latino, and i want to do the same thing. except with pediatrics 🙂

i just wanna emphasize again to everyone that i really don't think it's fair that my parents or others had to go thru what they did. i think they went *above and beyond*, given their hardships. but sadly i guess we just need more ppl to go above and beyond, before people begin to see us as capable and intelligent race.

lovedoc, i really admire you for overcoming adversity, especially since i've never really had to do so in the same way. your children will be very blessed.

oh and yes. i am a democrat.
😉

 

[lola]

Originally posted by UCSBPre-Med1
You see, this problem is far deeper than you (lola) thinking Blacks aren't trying to better themselves. They are...its just that many of them have given up, because it seems like so much is stacked against them. And until our government is able to provide better funding and send a message out to the community that they are willing to help them, nothing will change.

i don't disagree with anything you've said. however, why is it that some black people HAVE been able to succeed? those people need to take what they've done back to their communities and show people that it CAN be done. it is very simplistic, i know. and not everyone is so strong that they can fight, and fight, and fight they system without giving up. but i do think that we are at a point in time now where success is possible. people do it all the time. i don't quite understand why you say it's hard for aa's to find jobs. maybe it is... but not at any of the places i've worked at that's for sure.

obviously i cannot put myself in your shoes very easily just as you may not be able to see where i'm coming from. but the thing is, a lot of society is coming from where i'm coming from -- whether it be right or wrong. and if it isn't acknowledged then things cannot change.

 

[mamie]

Lola, I think you are too scared to do anything. Just keep on running, us black folk will try to take care of everything.

Anyway, the real problem is what was stated by lovedoc earlier, in that mainstream america (white america) doesn't understand that problems in black communities are not only AA problems but America's problems also. Once America realizes this, it won't keep on running away (like lola) from the problem and try to fix it.

I'm a firm believer in the fact that problems in black communities will spread to all americans. A good example is drugs. When drugs were destroying black neighborhoods in the late seventies and eighties, America did nothing. Soon as drugs started popping up in surburbia, then all of sudden people got interested. As long as drugs were killing black people, America didn't care. But as soon as Mary, Becky, and Danny started dying from ecstacy, weed, and alchohol ladened binges, then America wants to awaken itself to the drug problem. I'm telling you, these problems will start spreading to every neighborhood, not just the ghetto, if America doesn't wake up and realize that these problems are not only AA's problems but all of ours.

 

[LoveDoc]

Lola,

Please write those clinics or big sister prgms who wouldn't let you pair with a black child or better yet have them call me. I'll set them straight.

I am glad to see you are aware. Remember you don't have to help through an institution. You can seek out ways to be a positive influence on your own. And every little bit helps. When black kids don't 'see' mainstream americans helping out then they tend to alienate themselves as they get older.

My other suggestions on assisting the plight in your community as a physician are:

1) make sure your minority patients get equivalent diagnosis as your other patients

2) promote prevention of healthy lifestyles. Minorities tend to be to blame for their propensity to have certain diseases due to their eating habits, lifestyle, etc

3) promote early diagnosis for minorities for:
diabetes
high blood pressure
fibroids
breast cancer
ovarian cancer
gestational diabetes
and a new one: preeclampsia!!! (i learned about that from a doctor I'm shadowing - potentially terminal if not diagnosed and more common in African American pregnant women)

OK...back to the other issue. I think a significant impact that you and others can make is being 'sincerely' concerned about assisting in minority neigborhoods, tutoring, etc. Quite commonly (and I kid you not) the only white people you see volunteering are those interested in dating men/women of the opposite race.

I believe you can make a difference. Don't stop just keep trying. When a door gets closed, write a letter and keep protesting until someone hears you.

You are heading in the right direction. Don't give up.

😍

 

[lola]

Originally posted by chloe5
white flight!

you're annoying -- acting like you're all perfect and have never had a biased thougth in your life. get off your high horse. i'm glad i left hsph when i did. there were a lot of annoying people there.

 

[14931]

Originally posted by mamie
Lola, I think you are too scared to do anything. Just keep on running, us black folk will try to take care of everything.

Anyway, the real problem is what was stated by lovedoc earlier, in that mainstream america (white america) doesn't understand that problems in black communities are not only AA problems but America's problems also. Once America realizes this, it won't keep on running away (like lola) from the problem and try to fix it.

I'm a firm believer in the fact that problems in black communities will spread to all americans. A good example is drugs. When drugs were destroying black neighborhoods in the late seventies and eighties, America did nothing. Soon as drugs started popping up in surburbia, then all of sudden people got interested. As long as drugs were killing black people, America didn't care. But as soon as Mary, Becky, and Danny started dying from ecstacy, weed, and alchohol ladened binges, then America wants to awaken itself to the drug problem. I'm telling you, these problems will start spreading to every neighborhood, not just the ghetto, if America doesn't wake up and realize that these problems are not only AA's problems but all of ours.

🙂

 

[lola]

oh yeah, i almost forgot! i teach tennis for free every saturday morning to low income kids. i sure as hell am NOT running away from the problem. i just had to run away from my neighborhood b/c i didn't want to end up dead. is that so bad?

 

[chloe5]

sorry, perhaps your ego is bruised. i'm not perfect, certainly. I felt passionately about what you and others wrote so I responded to that first post. I'm not at hsph by the way. And perhaps those hsph people were annoyed by you because you are biased and then defensive.

Originally posted by lola
you're annoying -- acting like you're all perfect and have never had a biased thougth in your life. get off your high horse. i'm glad i left hsph when i did. there were a lot of annoying people there.

 

[care bear]

very true, mamie, and lovedoc.
i think plenty needs to be done by white America. i guess it's just hard for me to believe that they actually *will* do something, thus the stance i've tended to put forth.

(sigh) well, no more SDN for me for the night. i gotta finish this paper before 8am, or i'll fail and i'm sure the average GPA of URMs at ivy league schools will drop by .0000000000001 😉
and can't let that happen! seriously though, thanks for the discussion, and carry on. . .
😛

 

[chloe5]

And I'm not the only one crying white flight. So don't get personal.

And I think it's so funny how lola assumes I'm white and how care bear assumed I was a minority.

Originally posted by mamie
Lola, I think you are too scared to do anything. Just keep on running, us black folk will try to take care of everything.
.

 

[LoveDoc]

OK...I guess I'm the only one to defend Lola but...

I live in a 60% black/40% white suburb where the homes are $115-300,000..so.... little to no crime.

I don't think it matters what the color of your skin is everyone is entitled to a safe neigbhoorhood.

OK...

And carebear I think it is so cool that your father is a doc and your mom is in education. I admire your family!!!!

 

[14931]

Originally posted by lola
oh yeah, i almost forgot! i teach tennis for free every saturday morning to low income kids. i sure as hell am NOT running away from the problem. i just had to run away from my neighborhood b/c i didn't want to end up dead. is that so bad?

its seems u are just trying too hard to prove to urself that u are not a racist.

i am sorry but this will be my last post of the night, lola i think u are entitled to seek the best for urself, everyone wants only the best, u have to understand though that while it is easy for u to just pick up ur bags and leave a ghetto, it is not easy for the african americans, it just follows them everywhere.

again i am very confident that u are doing ur best to help in whatever way and i applaude u. 🙂

 

[LoveDoc]

Gee carebear is URM Ivy League. HOW NICE!!!!

 

[DarkChild]

OT, but related. Has anyone ever had to change their name on their resume?
Let me tell you there is nothing worse than the feeling of having to lie about your name. Discrimination happes so subtly you'd be surprised.
Here's some thing personal. I interviewed at Columbia a few days ago. The assistant dean there told me that she hated Boston (she had gone to Stanford ugrad and then Harvard Med). Surprised (my girl friend lives in Boston and I generally think it is a nice place) I asked her why. With visible emotion, she told me that was the first time, standing on the steps of Harvard Med school, that someone had said to her: "Get out of my way nig-ger."
20 something years later, her pain was still as vivid as that very day.
I brushed it off. That was Boston in the 70's stuff changes. You know what happened the very next day?
One of my girlfriend's friends (who works at a Harvard lab) was walking to work when this huge white guy steps on her foot hard and purposefully. Surprised she looks at the guy, but says nothing. He says: Yeah I just stepped on the foot of a nig-ger.... Keep walking nig-ger.... go back down south were you belong nig-ger.
make of it what you would.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by immediatespring
its seems u are just trying too hard to prove to urself that u are not a racist.

??? someone asked me what i was doing to help the black community, and i gave my answer. i would have never brought that stuff up otherwise. i'm doing my part the best i know how.

and chloe, you certainly did not bruise my ego. i don't have much of one anyway as opposed to most of those lame-o's at harvard. by the way, i didn't assume you were white. i assumed you were asian, but who they hell knows what you are or why i assumed that.

 

[LoveDoc]

lola,

in undergrad i met a girl i thought would become my best friend. we started out together in chemistry and studied together all the time. i believe she was jewish. i really admired her b/c she always got higher grades and was so smart.

anyway...one day hanging outside the bio room her non-URM friends came over and she completely dissed me. she forget i existed. she didn't introduce me and she walked away acting as if i wasn't there. i attended a big 10 school with less than 1% blacks in pre-med so her friendship and acceptance meant at lot to me 10 years ago.

that is when i came to the realization that no matter how hard i tried i was always going to be the 'little black girl' who was trying so hard to fit in.

my point is another way you can impact the downward spiral indicative of this thread is by challenging the mentality of your friends as it applies to minorities. i personally have a few 'white' friends and they all know i am extremely race conscience. i don't hold anything back. when im asked to a party i ask if i will be the only black person there for informational purposes. i love people of all races but i am realistic. you can be an influence just among your friends by challenging racist ideas, jokes, opinions, etc.

that's a subtle impact...

 

[LoveDoc]

I thought I'd share the results of my hidden-bias test from tolerance.org I encourage black Republicans to take the test and share their results!

Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for Black

The score above has already been corrected for the order that you performed the task. If your score was 'Inconclusive', click here. Compare your score above with the distribution of all respondents scores below.


Interpretation Percent of Total
Respondents

Strong automatic preference for White Americans 48%
Moderate automatic preference for White Americans 13%
Slight automatic preference for White Americans 12%
Little to no automatic preference 12%
Slight automatic preference for Black Americans 6%
Moderate automatic preference for Black Americans 4%
Strong automatic preference for Black Americans 6%

If your test showed a "preference" for a group, the result points to a hidden, or unconscious bias. The results of over one million tests show that unconscious bias exists in most of us.

In extensive evidence from online tests, a large proportion of white Americans show a moderate or strong unconscious bias toward, or preference for, whites, and almost even half of all blacks show an automatic preference for white.

If you are surprised or concerned about your test results, or if you'd like to know more about hidden biases and what you can do about them, go to Hidden Bias - a Primer.

 

[lola]

lovedoc,
sorry about your friend 🙁 that really sucks. i hope that was only an isolated incident, and that you don't face things like that in your daily life. it's sad but i don't really have any african american friends. i had one once, but she moved. there is so much segregation in schools etc.. that it is very difficult to even become friends with a black person, at least where i'm from and where i'm currently living and in the schools i've attended. there were only 3 or 4 black people in my high school class of 300. i enjoy hanging out with a black lady at work, but she's old enough to be my mother so i wouln't really call her a friend. this may sound crazy/lame to most of you, but this is the case with a lot of people -- particularly people who did not grow up in urban environments or who grew up in non-diverse areas. i have chinese, japanese, indian, mexican, etc... friends. but no black friends. not because i don't want to, but because of how segretated our universities still are and because i grew up in a non-diverse area.

and i'm sorry if my attitudes offended anyone on here, because really all i was trying to do was be honest. LOTS of people feel this way, and nothing can really be fully resolved until all the issues are laid out on the table. it is naive of people to think that no one feels this way. believe me, if i (someone who is extremely liberal and well educated) am feeling this way, many people are feeling the same or much worse sentiments.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by STi555
White people may become racist because of what we see on the media and in our lives. Many times in the media we see mostly black criminals. Nearly all of the black students at my school hang together and have been unfriendly towards me. I say "hi" to them and they ignore me while most other people will give some response. I hold a door for them and they don't say "thanks." I know I may be called racist for making these observations but it is what I have seen.

People who refuse to acknowledge you or say thanks when you show them a courtesy - simply because you are white - are racist. When our black friends recount stories of racism, we (whites) don't identify with the perpetrators, and in fact would be highly outraged if someone suggested that we were somehow guilty by association for the despicable acts, simple because we were also white. We expect to be dissociated from the actions of skinheads and klansmen (and just dinguses), because 'I'm not like that'.

To allow yourself to have anger toward black folks in general because of the rude behavior of these racist blacks you've met, is RACISM. Do you like being held responsible for the behavior of the David Duke's in the world? Same thing with fear of criminal behavior. Prisons are full of white criminals; I certainly feel no association with those folks and would be insulted if you grouped me with them. Yet blacks find themselves somehow responsible for the delinquent behavior of the entirety of the black community. The black community is just that: a community. With representation of all different sorts of people.

Black folks encounter racist white behavior on practically a daily basis. They can't move away from it and see it only on the evening news: white culture is everywhere. When you think of how difficult it is for you to remain objective after a few bad experiences, think of that. Their burden of forgiveness vastly eclipses ours.

It's easy and convenient to group people based on superficial identifiers, but it's also the root of racism, and we must be vigilant against unfair characterizations.

 

[womansurg]

By the way, these discussions are intensely personal and often painful for many of those on the board. Kudos to everyone for having the courage to share true feelings and for being willing to delve into such a vulnerable topic on an open forum - not by any means easy to do. All of us benefit and are grateful.

-ws

 

[STi555]

Originally posted by womansurg
People who refuse to acknowledge you or say thanks when you show them a courtesy - simply because you are white - are racist. When our black friends recount stories of racism, we (whites) don't identify with the perpetrators, and in fact would be highly outraged if someone suggested that we were somehow guilty by association for the despicable acts, simple because we were also white. We expect to be dissociated from the actions of skinheads and klansmen (and just dinguses), because 'I'm not like that'.

To allow yourself to have anger toward black folks in general because of the rude behavior of these racist blacks you've met, is RACISM. Do you like being held responsible for the behavior of the David Duke's in the world? Same thing with fear of criminal behavior. Prisons are full of white criminals; I certainly feel no association with those folks and would be insulted if you grouped me with them. Yet blacks find themselves somehow responsible for the delinquent behavior of the entirety of the black community. The black community is just that: a community. With representation of all different sorts of people.

Black folks encounter racist white behavior on practically a daily basis. They can't move away from it and see it only on the evening news: white culture is everywhere. When you think of how difficult it is for you to remain objective after a few bad experiences, think of that. Their burden of forgiveness vastly eclipses ours.

It's easy and convenient to group people based on superficial identifiers, but it's also the root of racism, and we must be vigilant against unfair characterizations.

I think when I mentioned these incidents I didn't describe my feelings very well. Nearly all black people my age have basically given me the feeling that they don't like me or don't want to associate with me. Because of this I don't really associate with them. I don't hate black people because of it, but it makes me less likely to try to strike up on conversation with a black person when my past attempts have been rebuffed.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by STi555
I don't hate black people because of it...

Of course you don't. I think you actually did a nice job of describing how you felt when you were treated badly simply because of your race. It hurts...and it can make you pretty angry.

It sounds like the black and white kids at your school are eyeing each other with a lot of suspicion and distrust. I'd bet if someone asked one of the AA's about you, they'd say about the same thing that you said: "he seems like he doesn't like me or want to associate with me." Despite appearances, if you had the opportunity to get to know some folks better, you'd find them to be the usual assortment of people in any crowd: some who love animals, some who are worried with world affairs, some who are very close to their family, some who are independent, some who are confident, some who are shy, some gay, some straight, some you like and some you don't... I think you'd find their differences to be far greater than their similarities.

 

[STi555]

I guess this brings out an important point that I hadn't really thought about before. To make a difference in these issues a person must actually do something. It is much easier for me to do nothing than to try to reach out, but if I just do nothing than things won't change.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by STi555
I guess this brings out an important point that I hadn't really thought about before. To make a difference in these issues a person must actually do something. It is much easier for me to do nothing than to try to reach out, but if I just do nothing than things won't change.

<<< clasps hands over heart and looks on with shining eyes >>>

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by womansurg
Despite appearances, if you had the opportunity to get to know some folks better, you'd find them to be the usual assortment of people in any crowd: some who love animals, some who are worried with world affairs, some who are very close to their family, some who are independent, some who are confident, some who are shy, some gay, some straight, some you like and some you don't... I think you'd find their differences to be far greater than their similarities.

womansurg, this is a really positive point you made here. In grade school/high school, I ran into some black kids who made racist comments @ Asians. However, i don't let those experiences color my perception of the entire race. Living in big cities w/ large black populations has given me an opportunity to get to know many black individuals on a personal level, which has distilled a lot of resentment i had previously. It's really important to take some steps to overcome racial tension. For example, if i need to ask for directions, i don't pick a person of a certain race b/c i feel they might be more friendly/helpful. The same thing when I first come to a new class or work setting--I try not to let preconceived racial notions dictate who I'll reach out to. You're right, a cross-section of any racial population would reveal a diversity of personalities--good and bad elements.