for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.

[relatively prime]

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Why is it that people think "most" pblack people live in ghettos? It's my understanding that <20% of Black people live in these all-black low-income areas. The other 80%+ have "assimilated" into middle-class American society... and the percentage of African Americans living at the middle-class income level has been rising significantly for years.

I think the media leads people to think that most black people are poor and living in ghettos... when this isn't true at all. Not that these areas aren't a problem... but I think it's important to keep this in mind when talking about "black people in America".

 

[lola]

Originally posted by relatively prime
Why is it that people think "most" pblack people live in ghettos? It's my understanding that <20% of Black people live in these all-black low-income areas. The other 80%+ have "assimilated" into middle-class American society... and the percentage of African Americans living at the middle-class income level has been rising significantly for years.

I think the media leads people to think that most black people are poor and living in ghettos... when this isn't true at all. Not that these areas aren't a problem... but I think it's important to keep this in mind when talking about "black people in America".

i totally agree with you, and i wish this weren't the case. my exposure to the black community comes mainly from the media and my previous living experience. although i know that this is not a good representation, it's hard to ignore these things when they make up most of your exposure to a population.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by relatively prime
Why is it that people think "most" pblack people live in ghettos? It's my understanding that <20% of Black people live in these all-black low-income areas. The other 80%+ have "assimilated" into middle-class American society... and the percentage of African Americans living at the middle-class income level has been rising significantly for years.

I think the media leads people to think that most black people are poor and living in ghettos... when this isn't true at all. Not that these areas aren't a problem... but I think it's important to keep this in mind when talking about "black people in America".

W3rd! What about Hispanics? They're much worse off, especially now with the mass migrations to the U.S.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by kaos
W3rd! What about Hispanics? They're much worse off, especially now with the mass migrations to the U.S.

kaos, right on! While researching urban schools, i discovered that growth of the Latino population has been surpassing that of AA & actually comprise the highest % in many cities.

 

[DAL]

Originally posted by relatively prime
Why is it that people think "most" pblack people live in ghettos? It's my understanding that <20% of Black people live in these all-black low-income areas. The other 80%+ have "assimilated" into middle-class American society... and the percentage of African Americans living at the middle-class income level has been rising significantly for years.

I think the media leads people to think that most black people are poor and living in ghettos... when this isn't true at all. Not that these areas aren't a problem... but I think it's important to keep this in mind when talking about "black people in America".

i'm not sure of expect percentages, but i'm sure almost every public housing unit in america has a much higher percentage of blacks than any other race. i don't live in public housing, but i live right up the street from it, and even where i live most of my friends consider the ghetto. in fact, i'm the only white dude in my neighborhood. but that's beside the point.

i think white america needs to play a role in helping, but the large majority of work needs to be done by black america. this is simply because of the fact that the majority of blacks do not want the help of whites. and i'm sure everyone here will spew out various cases where what i just said is not true, but i believe this is the case for the majority.

i've done tutoring for black kids at domestic violence shelters (where, by the way there were no black tutors and no lovedoc, i wasn't looking for a date🙄 ) my father was a big brother for a young black man. he lived in public housing and while his mom could barely put food on the table for her 4 kids, she still managed to keep cable tv in the house for her kids to watch who knows what. i believe the change needs to come in the form of more black males serving as positive role models and black families in general emphasizing the importance of education. yes, white america can and should help, but for there to be serious change, the large push needs to come from black america.

 

[relatively prime]

I don't mean to start a war... but with hispanics... it's totally different. Most hispanics have come over here completely of their own will... even risked their lives to get over here. Obviously they think that what they have here is better than what they had in whatever country they came from. Especially since it's relatively easy to go back to Mexico and most south american countries... it was pretty impossible for the black Americans to return to Africa. And even if they could, most were so far removed from their culture and language that they couldn't just go back to an African life.

THat's not to say hispanics shouldn't be given all the same oppertunities as all other Americans. I simply believe there's a certain indebtedness to the black community that doesn't exist for the hispanic community.

And the US government really has very little responsibility to illegal immigrants.

Yes, yes, I understand that the economies of many border states would be ruined without hispanic immigrants (which is why I believe US immigration policy needs to change to be more welcoming)... but you just can't compare hispanics to blacks in their historical and current situations.

 

[dph201]

Thank you CareBear for starting a very important discussion in a mature manner. And thank you all for talking and not just saying hateful things to each other. As URM (black woman) I have become very depressed reading all the other threads about affirmative action and URMs in medical school. Its nice to see that there are people out there who really do care and are trying to make a difference.

I am not from the ghetto and I can tell you that education has always been put first in my family. So for others to say that it isn't that many of us don't find to be important isn't true. I think for a lot of us education is important, but the schools we have to attend are just not well equipped with the necessary resources. Like others have said America needs to realize it needs to help.

 

[dph201]

As for the comment about why many blacks call Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, and many other "sell-outs". The problem is that many prominent black people make it and forget out about their community. Its not that they have to sound uneducated or be entertainers in order to be true to the race. Its just they need to GIVE BACK. Colin Powell is in a very powerful position and he isn't doing much to help make a change in the black community. And that is why many call him a sell-out. He has forgotten where he has come from and now seems to look down own his race instead of helping.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by dph201
As for the comment about why many blacks call Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, and many other "sell-outs". The problem is that many prominent black people make it and forget out about their community. Its not that they have to sound uneducated or be entertainers in order to be true to the race. Its just they need to GIVE BACK. Colin Powell is in a very powerful position and he isn't doing much to help make a change in the black community. And that is why many call him a sell-out. He has forgotten where he has come from and now seems to look down own his race instead of helping.

What should he be doing? I think he is a good role model for anyone, black or white or purple.

 

[dph201]

Perhaps help the schools in the black communities. Help them get the resources they need to provide a better curriculum to the schools. So that another school isn't shut down because the children are not performing well. Its not that the teachers are teaching well its that they don't have the resources they need. That is what he needs to be doing.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by Gleevec
What should he be doing? I think he is a good role model for anyone, black or white or purple.

The scary thing is that people actually look up to this guy. Clarence T. is pushing it.

I want to know why I should tell my kids to look up to a sexually harrasing, chain smoking man who doesn't have his own voice and follows the quims of his conservative buddies on the court. I think I would actually respect him if he had his own voice and actually spoke his mind (conservative, liberal, or whatever) However, he is nothing but a figurehead, and that's what most people see.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by dph201
Perhaps help the schools in the black communities. Help them get the resources they need to provide a better curriculum to the schools. So that another school isn't shut down because the children are not performing well. Its not that the teachers are teaching well its that they don't have the resources they need. That is what he needs to be doing.

Charles Drew University in S. Central LA is a great example of what can be done @ the community level. Their integrated healthcare/education programs are a great model b/c they attempt to address the socioeconomic issues that impact on healthcare/education. I've also seen this model work really well in poor communities in Central America. A difference can be made through these integrated programs as well as through networking w/ social agencies w/ similar goals.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by mamie
The scary thing is that people actually look up to this guy. Clarence T. is pushing it.

I want to know why I should tell my kids to look up to a sexually harrasing, chain smoking man who doesn't have his own voice and follows the quims of his conservative buddies on the court. I think I would actually respect him if he had his own voice and actually spoke his mind (conservative, liberal, or whatever) However, he is nothing but a figurehead, and that's what most people see.

I was talking about Powell.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by Gleevec
I was talking about Powell.

My bad, 😀

I have no problem with Powell, hell of general and sec. of state.

But at least do we agree on Thomas being a tool.

 

[womansurg]

Actually, for what it's worth (nuthin'), I never felt that Clarence Thomas legitimately harassed Anita Hill. I'm a flaming liberal and a feminazi, so perhaps my dissent here is notable.

Adults often engage in sexual humor - god knows we do it all the time in my surgery program, and I am one of the leading perpetrators. If someone interprets adult humor as offensive or threatening, then it is incumbent upon that person the make that perspective known to co-workers. Otherwise the assumption is that you are an adult, you have a sense of humor, and you want to play along.

To comment about a short curly hair stuck on your Coke can as a pubic hair is pretty typical humor - where I come from. Sexual harrassment is defined as a pattern of UNWANTED sexual overture. Hill admits that she never, not one time, asked Thomas to refrain from his adult jokes (none of which were specific to her anyway). In my mind, Thomas was just being a normal guy, and Hill made a big deal out of nothing - in retrospect.

Just my lil' ol' opinion...

 

[mamie]

you are right. It's okay to act like a complete ass around women. What was I thinking by trying to raise my kids to respect women.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by relatively prime
And the US government really has very little responsibility to illegal immigrants.

Yes, yes, I understand that the economies of many border states would be ruined without hispanic immigrants (which is why I believe US immigration policy needs to change to be more welcoming)... but you just can't compare hispanics to blacks in their historical and current situations.

RP, w/ this issue @ accountability, I would have to respectfully disagree. The economies of many Third World countries have been ruined by the economic structural adjustment policies of the 1980's, forced upon them in return for aid from the World Bank & International Monetary Fund. U.S. companies rushed to the Third World in droves during that time to take advantage of cheap labor, low tariffs (as result of NAFTA) & poor environmental regulation. These companies provided jobs for these countries, but also deprived these already cash-poor countries of profits/capital.

When I lived in Central America, I learned @ and also witnessed how these structural adjustment programs made life harder for working class people, since they basically forced these countries to cut social spending (i.e. healthcare/education) in order to tighten their budgets & meet the requirements for aid. Sort of a catch-22. I believe that the U.S. and western nations are accountable for the legacies of imperialism and modern day "economic colonialism" that are driving immigrants to this country.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by mamie
you are right. It's okay to act like a complete ass around women. What was I thinking by trying to raise my kids to respect women.

I guess I must act like a complete ass around women then. Give me a break. I'm a surgeon - a physician. I don't need to protected from adult humor. I LIKE adult humor. There're a lot of things to be offended about in this world - sex ain't one of 'em. Focus on something serious, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Dr.Tong]

amen to this....someone had to say it

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by womansurg
I guess I must act like a complete ass around women then. Give me a break. I'm a surgeon - a physician. I don't need to protected from adult humor. I LIKE adult humor. There're a lot of things to be offended about in this world - sex ain't one of 'em. Focus on something serious, as far as I'm concerned.

If I recall, Mr. Thomas was married, was he not. Now, if your future husband were caught up in the same shyt, would you so "That's okay honey, you're just a man, expressing yourself. Go ahead, it's fine if you say lewd jokes and put some of your pubic hair on her Coke can."

if you would condone this type of behavior and accept him; would you marry me? you're too good to be true.

I'm serious

 

[relatively prime]

Originally posted by Nefertari
RP, w/ this issue @ accountability, I would have to respectfully disagree. The economies of many Third World countries have been ruined by the economic structural adjustment policies of the 1980's, forced upon them in return for aid from the World Bank & International Monetary Fund. U.S. companies rushed to the Third World in droves during that time to take advantage of cheap labor, low tariffs (as result of NAFTA) & poor environmental regulation. These companies provided jobs for these countries, but also deprived these already cash-poor countries of profits/capital.

When I lived in Central America, I learned @ and also witnessed how these structural adjustment programs made life harder for working class people, since they basically forced these countries to cut social spending (i.e. healthcare/education) in order to tighten their budgets & meet the requirements for aid. Sort of a catch-22. I believe that the U.S. and western nations are accountable for the legacies of imperialism and modern day "economic colonialism" that are driving immigrants to this country.

Well... now you're getting into a totally different issue. If the USA has harmed outher countries with their policies... that doesn't mean that the US government has a responsibility to immigrants from those countries. Retributions (if in order) should be made to the governments of those countries... not to Amercain immigrants within the USA. I mean come on... we're talking two totally different things here.

I'm second generation Yugoslavian... does that mean I should get retribution from the US gov because I don't like how they supported the UN in Kosovo? Or, should all Muslim people in the US recieve retribution for all the support the US has given Isreal?

Besides that... your getting into an issue that would take a lot of in-dept knowledge and study to understand (not just a person experience).

 

[relatively prime]

Originally posted by Nefertari
RP, w/ this issue @ accountability, I would have to respectfully disagree. The economies of many Third World countries have been ruined by the economic structural adjustment policies of the 1980's, forced upon them in return for aid from the World Bank & International Monetary Fund. U.S. companies rushed to the Third World in droves during that time to take advantage of cheap labor, low tariffs (as result of NAFTA) & poor environmental regulation. These companies provided jobs for these countries, but also deprived these already cash-poor countries of profits/capital.

When I lived in Central America, I learned @ and also witnessed how these structural adjustment programs made life harder for working class people, since they basically forced these countries to cut social spending (i.e. healthcare/education) in order to tighten their budgets & meet the requirements for aid. Sort of a catch-22. I believe that the U.S. and western nations are accountable for the legacies of imperialism and modern day "economic colonialism" that are driving immigrants to this country.

Well... now you're getting into a totally different issue. If the USA has harmed other countries with their policies... that doesn't mean that the US government has a responsibility to immigrants from those countries. Retributions (if in order) should be made to the governments of those countries... not to Amercain immigrants within the USA. I mean come on... we're talking two totally different things here.

Should vietnamese immigrants recieve retribution from teh gov. for the war in vietnam? Or, should all Muslim people in the US recieve retribution for all the support the US has given Isreal?

Also, with the aid issue... I believe the corrupt governments of a lot of third world countries played their own role in that mess. I just think it's a lot more complicated than it looks at first... and it's unfair to put all the blame on one country when there is a lot going on on all sides.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

General Powell is a "sell outl"? I don't get pissed off often, but you're a *****.

I disagree with the old bastard on a lot of issues like AA and abortion but he is f-ing great man. He was on the board of directors of the United Negro College Fund as well as the Boys and Girls of America. He also started something called America's Promise. He also made it through the ranks to become the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

He acts in a responsible manner. He is polite. Two things very basic things that many black role models lack.

Who do YOU think is a good role model? Naz, Ja Rule, Jesse Jackson?

#@$@#$ sell out, my a@@.

 

[relatively prime]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
General Powell is a "tool"? I don't get pissed off often, but you're a *****.

I disagree with the old bastard on a lot of issues like AA and abortion but he is f-ing great man. He was on the board of directors of the United Negro College Fund as well as the Boys and Girls of America. He also started something called America's Promise. He also made it through the ranks to become the Chairman of the Joint Cheiefs of Staff.

He acts in a responsible manner. He is polite. Two things very basic things that many black role models lack.

Who do YOU think is a good role model? Naz, Ja Rule, Jesse Jackson?

#@$@#$ tool, my a@@.

yeah... really... maybe my opinion doesn't mean anything b/c I'm white... but I think Powell is a very respectable man... hell, if it weren't for him telling Bush what to do... who knows what kind of mess we'd be in right now.

 

[Gleevec]

Word, General Powell is about as good as they come. Maybe if he put out some rap albums or played for the 76ers he would get some respect from his community. I cant believe people think Powell is a sellout...

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
General Powell is a "sell outl"? I don't get pissed off often, but you're a *****.

I disagree with the old bastard on a lot of issues like AA and abortion but he is f-ing great man. He was on the board of directors of the United Negro College Fund as well as the Boys and Girls of America. He also started something called America's Promise. He also made it through the ranks to become the Chairman of the Joint Cheiefs of Staff.

He acts in a responsible manner. He is polite. Two things very basic things that many black role models lack.

Who do YOU think is a good role model? Naz, Ja Rule, Jesse Jackson?

#@$@#$ sell out, my a@@.

 

[mamie]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Word, General Powell is about as good as they come. Maybe if he put out some rap albums or played for the 76ers he would get some respect from his community. I cant believe people think Powell is a sellout...

that's funny, no really. freakin' hilarious.

anyway, who said that powell was a sellout?

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by dph201
As for the comment about why many blacks call Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, and many other "sell-outs". The problem is that many prominent black people make it and forget out about their community. Its not that they have to sound uneducated or be entertainers in order to be true to the race. Its just they need to GIVE BACK. Colin Powell is in a very powerful position and he isn't doing much to help make a change in the black community. And that is why many call him a sell-out. He has forgotten where he has come from and now seems to look down own his race instead of helping.

The "Sellout" comment. I dont care much from Thomas, but Powell has been a stellar citizen. And this is coming from a staunch democrat.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by mamie
If I recall, Mr. Thomas was married, was he not. Now, if your future husband were caught up in the same shyt, would you so "That's okay honey, you're just a man, expressing yourself. Go ahead, it's fine if you say lewd jokes and put some of your pubic hair on her Coke can."

Well, first of all, it's absurd to think that he PUT a pubic hair on his Coke can. Rather, he just looked down, saw a short curly hair stuck on the can, made an offhand joke - the same way any of the folks that I work with might have - and went on with his day. Honestly, are people in your world really that prude? Everyone I work with is married - happily so, most with kids - and we curse and carry on and are as crude as all get out. It's been pretty much the same everywhere I've worked, in three different states, so I don't think that my experiences are all that uncommon.

I'm serious, too.

 

[scootad.]

i agree w/ you womansurg that people can be way too uptight about sex.

but this doesnt change the fact that clarence thomas is a tool with no voice.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by relatively prime
Well... now you're getting into a totally different issue. If the USA has harmed other countries with their policies... that doesn't mean that the US government has a responsibility to immigrants from those countries. Retributions (if in order) should be made to the governments of those countries... not to Amercain immigrants within the USA. I mean come on... we're talking two totally different things here.

Should vietnamese immigrants recieve retribution from teh gov. for the war in vietnam? Or, should all Muslim people in the US recieve retribution for all the support the US has given Isreal?

Also, with the aid issue... I believe the corrupt governments of a lot of third world countries played their own role in that mess. I just think it's a lot more complicated than it looks at first... and it's unfair to put all the blame on one country when there is a lot going on on all sides.

RP,
If by "retributions" you mean monetary compensation, than yes, that would be a different issue since it would be overwhelming process to figure all that out. My response was meant primarily to address the "anti-immigrant" sentiments of "Why are these people coming to the US?" or "They should go back where they came from" or fears of illegal immigrants. The majority of immigrants are actually legal, and those that are illegal, as you mentioned, help to prop up the agro economies of many western and southern states. And I agree, these issues are complex and intertwined w/ a host of other political/social issues.

I'm trying to say that the US is accountable and should be open to immigrants from countries that have been devastated by US involvement and interference politically/economically. I'm not saying that the US is 100% responsible for the turmoil in other countries; however, the reality is that the US has played a big hand in most, in collaboration w/ corrupt leaders of those countries. I majored in Third World Development in college & the accounts of US involvement in poor countries and the aftermath are just staggering. The analogy is that if you go to your neighbor's yard and plunder their garden, pretty soon, they'll be knocking on your door. We're definitely a global community now.

I like how you bring up the example of Vietnamese immigrants, b/c that's a good point. The reason that there are so many Vietnamese in the US now is b/c the US accepted responsibility for its involvement by allowing immigration after the war ended. I believe that the US should continue to be open to immigration from Central American countries such as Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua, in accountability for its funding of murderous military regimes in those countries, which destroyed their infrastructures and left its people fleeing for their lives and in search of scarce work. The impact of foreign & economic policy can span decades and the waves of immigration we're seeing now have their roots in Reagan's foreign policy in the 1980's or even earlier.

I didn't mean to attack your statement. I like this thread since it hasn't degenerated like the other ones and allows us the opportunity to bring all these issues into the open. Hope the productive discussions can continue! 🙂

 

[LoveDoc]

Especially since it's relatively easy to go back to Mexico and most south american countries...

I know Jenny's from the Bronx and all but I think she should be a candidate for deportation. I'm so sick of her shaking her tan a$$ all around the TV screen.

OK...back to the conversation at hand

i've done tutoring for black kids at domestic violence shelters (where, by the way there were no black tutors and no lovedoc, i wasn't looking for a date ) ....

WHY NOT? YOU DON'T LIKE CHOCOLATE?

i believe the change needs to come in the form of more black males serving as positive role models and black families in general emphasizing the importance of education.

DAL sweets....

I don't know if you've looked at statistics lately but this ain't happening no time soon. I believe the problem with black male role models is partly inherent and partly societal. Even the "supposed' role models we have/had Jesse J, Bill C, Martin L, Ralph D. Abernathy couldn't keep their hands out of another woman's pants long enough to make an influence.

I'm waiting any day now for Al S's LoveChild to appear plastered all over the news. Anyway....I believe black men have more negative pressure's in life than any other gender or racial group. I know ALOT of black men and most educated or not feel the same. They feel antagonized, hated, ostracized, and oppressed. I didn't realize this until I started meeting those pretty high up in the ranks of money and prosperity that they voiced the same evils as those working less glamorous jobs.

Someone is to blame and there is an answer...but where do we start boosting their value in society? Until this issue is addressed I doubt the black male role model numbers will be increasing expeditiously.

 

[dph201]

Hey wait a minute everyone. I never said that I thought Powell was a "sell-out". I was just explaining why some people think he is a sell-out. Its a topic I brought up with co-workers and friends after reading the thread. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So once again I never said I thought he was a sell out. Frankly the man doesn't bother me at all. He is doing is job. But others that I have spoke to don't feel that way. I realize now I should have stated that I had asked the question to others and posted this is why others may feel that way. Based on the answers I got.

 

[dph201]

Oh please lets not start to turn this thread into a nasty hateful one. Sorry that I didn't get the message across clear enough. Care Bear was able to start something where we are talking and listening to each so please let's keep it that way

 

[relatively prime]

Originally posted by Nefertari

I'm trying to say that the US is accountable and should be open to immigrants from countries that have been devastated by US involvement and interference politically/economically.

There's a problem with this. Well, many problems... but let me ask you this... what would happen to country X if a large chunk of their more ambitious, able-bodied citizens jumped the next bus to the US? I'm not so sure this wouldn't hurt the country even more! I understand your points... but these things do get really complicated. It would most likely be devasting (again) to these countries economies if their more ambitious citizens just up and left for the UNited States... which is what would most likely happen if the USA suddenly opened it's borders.

Also, immigration to the US is already so heavy... and there are logical reaons for non-immigrant Americans to worry. A sudden increase in teh US population could cause the unemployment rate to sky-rocket. I do agree that immigration policy needs to be more welcoming... however, I think the process needs to be done slowly and accross the board (i.e. for all countries... not just third world countries).

Also, in defense of the US... I believe most the damage it's done has been more the result of ignorance and carelessness than malice and greed. Think of the food aid program... I mean, at first thought... sending food to starving countries does seem like a good idea. However, in the end, it drove a lot of local farmers out of business and ruined the economies of those cities and towns.

You can attack my statements. I don't mind... as long as you don't curse at me 🙂

 

[care bear]

thanks love doc for the encouragement (that was about 2 pages ago now🙂 )

rp, you make some good points. however, i have to assert that US foreign policy has more often been the result of greed, malice, and self-aggrandization, than any other more innocent motives.
east timor. . .chile. . .argentina. . .
some of the things the US has done is so shameful it's ridiculous. and i am *not* a conspiracy theorist, just an informed political science major, but there are plenty more CIA documents detailing involvements in shady deals, that are still 'classified' !! so we don't even know the full extent.
and most ppl. don't even know the full extent of what's out there for the researching. ..

i think you're right though that food aid for the most part hasn't been malicious, just poorly thought out.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by relatively prime
You can attack my statements. I don't mind... as long as you don't curse at me 🙂

RP, you're too nice--I couldn't curse @ you! Also, it's more fun to curse @ people in person. "F**k you, B*tch!!!" just doesn't have the same effect over the internet. Good to see you back, btw! 😍

We've definitely touched upon lots of loaded issues & I'm really enjoying our discussion. However, I'm not so coherent today since I've got a long X-mas shopping list on my mind. So, hopefully, I can continue debate when I can find some time over the holidays.

 

[Nefertari]

Originally posted by care bear
rp, you make some good points. however, i have to assert that US foreign policy has more often been the result of greed, malice, and self-aggrandization, than any other more innocent motives.
east timor. . .chile. . .argentina. . .
some of the things the US has done is so shameful it's ridiculous. and i am *not* a conspiracy theorist, just an informed political science major, but there are plenty more CIA documents detailing involvements in shady deals, that are still 'classified' !! so we don't even know the full extent.
and most ppl. don't even know the full extent of what's out there for the researching. ..
i think you're right though that food aid for the most part hasn't been malicious, just poorly thought out.

care bear, ditto to everything that you wrote. Yeah, after learning the dirty details of US involvement and visiting places such as Latin America and volunteering for the East Timor Action Network, I'm a bit less proud to be American. Definitely many reasons why much of the world doesn't like the US, even our allies.

 

[HoMuffin]

bump- great thread guys

 

[pillowhead]

Well, I just read through this thread for the first time...very interesting, and it's great that people are (usually) staying respectful. my two cents:

I think Lola had every right to move out of the dangerous community. Would we condemn a black family for leaving and moving to a less violent area with better schools? Worrying about your own safety does not mean that you do not care about or think about the larger issues as to why these dangerous communities exist in the first place. It is not Lola's fault these communities exist, and ultimately, you cannot ask an individual to be responsible for anything except his/her own actions.

Secondly, what do people think of the high birthrate to unwed mothers in the black community? The statistics I've heard are between 60-70% of black children are born to unmarried mothers while about 15-20% of white children are. I think that this discrepancy is probably one of the biggest factors as to why the black community as a whole is still suffering so much. Every study in the world indicates that the presence of a father is beneficial. Now I in NO WAY believe a bad/abusive father is better than no father, and I do NOT agree w/ some Republicans believing we should use tax money to promote marriage. Just curious as to what people think.

 

[williestyle81]

hey pillowhead

where are you getting your stats from? those numbers seem really skewed.

emw

 

[applejuice1979]

Originally posted by pillowhead
what do people think of the high birthrate to unwed mothers in the black community? The statistics I've heard are between 60-70% of black children are born to unmarried mothers while about 15-20% of white children are.

Actually, pillowhead is "right". Check out this website. http://icg.harvard.edu/~sa54/lectures/PDF/lecture_3-11-02.pdf He is "right" if you take raw numbers. There are less black women than there are white women in this country. But poverty strikes more black communities (I know this is a blanket generalization, but bear with me). So for black women there is a large numerator & a small denominator, vice versa for white women: small affected population for a large overall population. If we were to look at women in poverty, not just by color, the percentages would be almost identical across black, white, asian, latino, indian, and native american poor women.

 

[pillowhead]

Here is the data from my home state published by UGA.

In 1995, the total unwed birth rate in Georgia was 35.2 percent. The total number of white births to unwed mothers made up 18.5 percent of live births. Births to unwed African American women were nearly four times that, with 67.7 percent.

Quoted from: http://www.fcs.uga.edu/hace/caa/racebirth.html



According to a study published by Harvard, nationwide, the birthrates to unwed mothers in 1999 were as follows:
Asians 16%
Whites 26%
Hispanics 41%
Native Americans 60%
Blacks 69%

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by pillowhead
According to a study published by Harvard, nationwide, the birthrates to unwed mothers in 1999 were as follows:
Asians 16%
Whites 26%
Hispanics 41%
Native Americans 60%
Blacks 69%

If you're going to use stats like these, then you also need not forget that white women are also more likely to use abortion (perhaps due to having the resources) as a means of dealing with an unplanned pregnancy.

 

[MrSosa]

It's really interesting how people forget or discount the effect of institutionalized discrimination. We can't point to a single policy to prove it, we have to look at the big picture. Without a doubt, we cannot say enough about the importance of families, environments and so on. But do people actually believe that a lack of these is to blame for all our problems? African-Americans make up only 12% of the population, yet they make up more than half of the prison population. Anyone who thinks this is a natural phenomenon is frickin idiot. More black men in jail means more single parent households. It means more of these families living in ghettos becuz of limited finances. It means these kids going to poorly-funded schools and inadequate educations. I could go on and on. This situation leads to one of two outcomes for most people who face it, submission or desperation. Hopelessness is what makes people sell drugs, and use drugs. It makes poeple willing to steal or kill for whatever they want and need. And so the cycle continues. I kinda went off, but my point is this. Why are the penalties for "white-collar" crimes so soft? but for "street" crimes so severe? This is just one simple example, but it does exhibit how our institutions can discriminate. The fact is that it goes way more deeply than that in this country. MInorities have always been discriminated against. However, since the civil rights movement, it couldn't be done so openly. Regardless, minorities never had the chance to gain equal footing. Now discrimination comes more in the form of classism( or racism guised as classism), and minorities obviously started at the bottom here. That is the point of AA. Just like the unbalanced prison population, how can we justify African Americans making up only 2% of phisicians? You can't!

There are many thing s we need to do as individuals to change things, but the individual is not solely to blame. Some of you can get pissed at us for wanting to talk about this issue all you want, just don't read it if these things don't affect you. If they don't, then you're probaly white, which proves its validity. 40 years ago, black people had to drink from separate fountains. Apartheid existed within our lifetimes! People still believe in this type of s**t! You are sadly mistaken if you think it's all good now. Somebody will probably bash me for this but this is still a white man's country.