Stupid Question--> Does having a PharmD make you a Dr.?

janismia · Oct 16, 2003

If a pharmacist has completed his PharmD (Doctor of Pharmacy), wouldn't he then be addressed as Dr. Brown? It seems only right since they go through 4 years of Professional Education just like MDs and PHDs and "doctor" is in their title.
janis

GravyRPH · Oct 16, 2003

Technically, Yes. Your are a Dr. and are entitled to use the title. You will be hard pressed to find anyone actually using it though. I feel a little stupid having anyone call me Dr., but my director nearly demands it for himself, and answers the phone Dr. So-and-so.

Dr JPH · Oct 16, 2003

Originally posted by GravyRPH
Technically, Yes. Your are a Dr. and are entitled to use the title. You will be hard pressed to find anyone actually using it though.

Some of my friends say they will make sure people address them as doctor. Another friend of mine got upset when he was not referred to as "Dr. ___" in the hospital, but instead by his first name...in front of physicians! (God forbid 🙄 )

My girlfriend (PharmD) jokes about it all the time. She doesnt want to be called doctor nor would she expect to be called doctor.

Academic settings I think its appropriate.

I think there was a discussion on here about a year ago about addressing PharmDs as "doctor" in front of patients...something about patients getting confused about physician vs. pharmacist. Maybe a search would dig it up.

As far as I'm concerned...I dont think it matters, particularly in a retail setting. People come in and say "hey doc, I got a question" all the time. Telling a pt. picking up their Zyrtec that you are a "doctor of pharmacy" doesnt change their attitude towards you. Pharmacy is already a highly respected profession.

Telling a physician or answering phone calls from physicians as "doctor so-and-so" wont matter to them. You are a pharmacist.

Be proud of your education and your degree. Too many people are focused on the social stigma rather than their impact on their pts.

chunkyb · Oct 16, 2003

I agree with JPHazelton that the academic setting is the only appropriate place for addressing PharmDs as 'doctor' and not all over the place like in the phone book and on credit cards.

My impression of people who aren't actually physicians, but who demand the dr. title is that they're pretty insecure.

rutpharm · Oct 16, 2003

We're going to be pharmacists, if you insist on being called a doctor you should go to medical school or get a doctorate. Who has ever heard of a six year doctorate including undergraduate, give me a break..

baggywrinkle · Oct 16, 2003

Originally posted by GravyRPH
Technically, Yes. Your are a Dr. and are entitled to use the title. You will be hard pressed to find anyone actually using it though. I feel a little stupid having anyone call me Dr., but my director nearly demands it for himself, and answers the phone Dr. So-and-so.

Might as well call him Dr...it isn't like the extra responsibility is making him rich. How easily we are appeased. Give em an office, a reserved parking spot, and call him Dr and he is happy. Payback is when joint commission comes to visit and he has to take the heat. I'll take a Saturday evening shift any day rather than do that.

Reminds me of the time two baby docs with the incoming class standing outside my window were all excited because they had beepers and were on call. Bet the novelty wore off in a hurry!

TotalKayOs · Oct 16, 2003

there are instructors at my school that are just pharm d's and they refer to themselves as doctor. i personally don't think i would feel comforable being called doctor and i don't think i deserve it either.

LestatZinnie · Oct 18, 2003

hi..this is an interesting thread that came up in the podiatry forum as well.

how about dentists? Should people in the future refer to me as Dr. Chen, Dentist Chen, or what? Is the doc title appropriate for a DMD?

Realistically it doesnt matter for me, but i'm just curious about what people think.

Teufelhunden · Oct 18, 2003

This is purely opinion, by in my opinion, this is how it should work:

In the academic setting, ANYONE with a doctoral degree (Ed.D, Ph.D, PharmD, PsyD, DPT, etc) should be addressed as "doctor."

In the health care setting, on the other hand, "doctor" should be reserved to health care practitioners who hold a doctorate-level degree. By "health care practitioner," I mean one who can legally diagnose and medically (or surgically) treat illnesses (e.g. MD, DO, DMD, DDS, DPM...did I leave anyone out?)

And (unless you're a complete and utter tool) outside of work we should all go by our first names 😉

Modnar · Oct 18, 2003

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
This is purely opinion, by in my opinion, this is how it should work:

In the academic setting, ANYONE with a doctoral degree (Ed.D, Ph.D, PharmD, PsyD, DPT, etc) should be addressed as "doctor."

In the health care setting, on the other hand, "doctor" should be reserved to health care practitioners who hold a doctorate-level degree. By "health care practitioner," I mean one who can legally diagnose and medically (or surgically) treat illnesses (e.g. MD, DO, DMD, DDS, DPM...did I leave anyone out?)

And (unless you're a complete and utter tool) outside of work we should all go by our first names 😉

You took the words right out of my mouth.

stoic · Oct 18, 2003

There is a clinical Pharm.D. at the hospital where my Dad works and he (the clinical pharmacist) is usually introduced as Dr. So and So on when he rounds (he rounds daily with nephrology). It's not so much that the pharm.d. wants the title, it just makes things easier than they would be if they had to explain the whole MD/DO vs. clinical pharmasist pharm.d. thing to every patient.

SteveL · Oct 20, 2003

Originally posted by JPHazelton
Some of my friends say they will make sure people address them as doctor. Another friend of mine got upset when he was not referred to as "Dr. ___" in the hospital, but instead by his first name...in front of physicians! (God forbid 🙄 )

My girlfriend (PharmD) jokes about it all the time. She doesnt want to be called doctor nor would she expect to be called doctor.

Academic settings I think its appropriate.

I think there was a discussion on here about a year ago about addressing PharmDs as "doctor" in front of patients...something about patients getting confused about physician vs. pharmacist. Maybe a search would dig it up.

As far as I'm concerned...I dont think it matters, particularly in a retail setting. People come in and say "hey doc, I got a question" all the time. Telling a pt. picking up their Zyrtec that you are a "doctor of pharmacy" doesnt change their attitude towards you. Pharmacy is already a highly respected profession.

Telling a physician or answering phone calls from physicians as "doctor so-and-so" wont matter to them. You are a pharmacist.

Be proud of your education and your degree. Too many people are focused on the social stigma rather than their impact on their pts.

Pretty much agreed on the subject. I'm earning my pharmD degree and really wouldn't expect to be called doctor, nor do i see myself introducing myself as doctor so-and-so. If someone asked me what my profession was, would I say doctor...Lord no. If they called me doctor would I mind...no. If they didn't call me doctor would I mind...no. Personally the fact that my name is steve and that I'll be helping you with any questions you have about any medications will be quite fine. People who thrive on being called doctor need to get over themselves. Even doctors who need to be called 'dr.' all the time should do the same. Their role isn't 'dr,' it's a role of diagnosing/solving health problems. I'm not a phys nor do I want to be. If I did I would have just gotten an MD degree.

Like JP said, I'm very proud of the degree I'm earning and in no way should the title get in the way of what's really important...the people we (not just I or him) help

Dr JPH · Oct 20, 2003

Originally posted by SteveL

Like JP said, I'm very proud of the degree I'm earning and in no way should the title get in the way of what's really important...the people we (not just I or him) help

Well stated with the "we".

🙂

nanackleman · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by janismia
If a pharmacist has completed his PharmD (Doctor of Pharmacy), wouldn't he then be addressed as Dr. Brown? It seems only right since they go through 4 years of Professional Education just like MDs and PHDs and "doctor" is in their title.
janis

Pharmacists with a pharm D degree are addressed as 'doctor' and should be! I am currently ina pharm D program and fully expect to be called Dr. upon graduation. I am not caught up over it, but really, I have done my 4 years of undergrad, and now my 4 years of grad, I am earning a doctoral degree, a professional degree nonetheless, so yes, I expect the respect of being called Dr. just as any physician would. We (the physician and pharmacist) may have different area of expertise, but we are each best at what we do... for physicians its diagnosis, for pharmacists its medicine and chemical therapy. There are pharmacists in my state that even prescribe meds upon receiveing the diagnosis from the physician. Really, thats the way it should be!

juris doctor · Oct 21, 2003

I thought lawyer's were the only one's that had a professional doctorate that weren't called Dr. Isn't it interesting that every other profession with dr. in the degree is refered to as "DR." Do Optometrist work harder for their degrees or the Phd in Art History. It seems however that it depends on what has been customary. I think because people see Pharmacists behind the counter at the drug store they sometimes don't give them the respect they deserve. I know I do. Doctors in my family always tell me that Pharmacists are there best source of information at the hospital. Of course you should be called dr. But I guess it is a matter of custom. When a Doctor in Britian becomes a surgeon I understand they are called Mr/Ms. Go figure.

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

nanackleman,
get over yourself. you could get you pharm d in 6 year instead of eight. the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th years are not all conisdered grad years anyway. i think only the 5th and 6th years are. so you really did 6 years of undergrad and only 2 years of grad. when i finish with my pharm d i will not expect to, nor would i want to be called doctor. and what state are you in that allow pharmacist to prescribe drugs?

Brill · Oct 21, 2003

"get over yourself. you could get you pharm d in 6 year instead of eight. the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th years are not all conisdered grad years anyway. i think only the 5th and 6th years are. so you really did 6 years of undergrad and only 2 years of grad."

I don't expect to be referred to as "Dr." either (I'm not necessarily saying that Pharm.D's should or should not have the title. I just don't particularly care), but I don't believe this information is correct. If I understand it correctly, pharmacy, medical, dental, optometry, etc. are not graduate programs. They are all considered professional degree programs, so I don't really think it's accurate to say that someone did 6 years of undergrad and 2 of grad.

The way I see it a Pharm.D. is not a 6 year program. That would be like referring to medical school as an 8 year program, which, of course, it isn't. They're both 4 year professional programs with a certain amount of prerequisites. The fact that the vast majority of medical students already have degrees can be largely attributed to the competition for admission. The same thing is now happening in pharmacy school. As the competition increases, the percentage of students with previous degrees does also. I believe about 70% of my class received a degree prior to matriculation, and at some schools it is even higher. This has been discussed in here before, but I just thought I'd point that out.

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

the pharm d program is a six year program from start to finish. you can enter it right out of high school if your grades are good enough. and be done in six years. i THINK you nee to have an undergrad degree before going to med school, but i'm not sure and if that is the case than that is a big difference. the fact that someone can be done with their pharm d in six years total and it would require 8 years for a md.

Brill · Oct 21, 2003

I still don't think it's technically accurate to call the Pharm.D. a 6 year program. I believe some programs will guarantee certain students admission into the PharmD program if they maintain a certain GPA and complete the prerequisites in 2 years. But that doesn't mean that those 2 years of undergrad are technically part of the professional PharmD program. You're trying to combine the prerequisites and the professional program and refer to it as one long 6 year program. It is a certain amount of prerequisites and then 4 years of a professional program (3 in some cases)-- the same as all professional programs. In other words, it would be correct to say, "it's possible to get a PharmD after six years of school," but it would not be correct to say, "the PharmD is a six year program." There's a difference.

Medical schools (most/all?) do not technically require a degree, just a certain amount of prerequisites, as in pharmacy school. There are actually some combined B.S./M.D. programs that can also be completed in 6 years.

dgroulx · Oct 21, 2003

It is technically possible to finish your pharmacy prerequisites in 2 years, but highly unlikely.

UF requires a minimum AA degree, plus 2 semesters of gen chem, organic, general biology, A & P, physics and one semester of calculus with biochem and microbiology recommended. There's no way that anyone can finish all that in two years because of having to take all the other AA non-science requirements. None of those classes are considered part of the pharmD program.

When I looked into med school requirements, the only thing I saw different was 2 semesters of calculus instead of 1.

I agree that most people have a bachelor's degree before entering med school and that pharmacy will be that way in another couple of years.

baggywrinkle · Oct 21, 2003

"I think because people see Pharmacists behind the counter at the drug store they sometimes don't give them the respect they deserve"

Respect is earned and commanded. Having some gray hair helps.
They can trash you with your first name and they can trash you with your title. It boils down to what you will allow them to get away with. As long as you aren't out on a limb or back peddling from an error you are generally okay. I learned the hard way to remain semi aloof and not to smile straight away. It's a power game with some. After you've sized the situation up you can adjust, softening up or buttoning down as required.

From where I stand the very best pharmacists use their first name. This is the verbal equivalent of getting eye-to-eye with a child. Your goal is to disarm them by being their equal. If they attempt to intimidate then you pull out your cannon and blow them away with your superior knowledge of drugs/medicine/law/whatever. Bottom line is there can be no doubt they are playing in YOUR pool. Example; People are ruder on the phone than they are in person. Profanity gets them hung up on. End of story. When they call back threatening to call the DM invite them to and provide the phone number. Playing the broken record repeating your stand. Refusing to allow them to monopolize your time, cutting them off when it is time to go. They get the idea or they go across the street. The ones that leave usually will be back after they have stormed out of every other pharmacy in town....In most cases they have done you a favor.

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

ok, i will say that at my school it can be done in six years. i know a lot of people here that came in right out of high school becasue they knew what they wanted to do. my roommate did. he is in his third year now and only 20 i think. as long has he dosne't fail anything he will be done in another three years. if i knew that i wanted to go to pharmacy school i could have done it too. i actully had most of the prereqs done in my first two years of school. i was a psychobio major. i could have had them all done if i had ever considered pharmacy as an option.

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

if pharmacy school is not a 6 year program why do people say i am in my 1styear or 2nd year or so on of the pharm d program. that is how i hear most people refer to it. in md school people say they are in their 1st year of med school, 2nd etc.

Brill · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by TotalKayOs
if pharmacy school is not a 6 year program why do people say i am in my 1styear or 2nd year or so on of the pharm d program. that is how i hear most people refer to it. in md school people say they are in their 1st year of med school, 2nd etc.

If someone says they are in their first year of a PharmD program that means they are in year one of a 4 (or 3 for accelerated programs) year professional program. If someone is taking undergraduate prerequisite courses and they say they are in the first year of a PharmD program then what they have said is incorrect. Just because the total amount of schooling can be completed in 6 years doesn't mean that the PharmD program itself is 6 years in length.

nanackleman · Oct 21, 2003

Just to clarify myself, and hopefully get to the point, the school I attend (which is in the top 5 pharm schools in the country) is based on a 4 year program. 75% of the instructors are practicing pharmacists, 25% are PhD. Every instructor I have spoken with considers the pharmacy curriculum to be graduate level work.

The medical school next door to me accepts students if you meet the pre reqs also. You could complete the medical pre reqs in 2-3 years and get in without an undergrad degree.

The pharmacy school does the same thing. You can complete your pre reqs with 100 credit hours (they just increased it for next years class) and still get in.... but its very unlikely. Every member of my class of 125 has a degree except 2. 18 people have a PhD, probably 30+ with a masters, and there is also a dentist among us.

And also, I am not hung up over the issue, butI wanted to make it clear that the title Dr. does not denote physician or pharmacist.... you could be a Dr. of English as we all know, yet those people are still Dr.'s because of their expertise, hard work, and academic dedication.

Pharmacists are no different. We are doctors... of pharmacy. It just happens to be that we know more about meds than we do diagnosis... and that physicians know more about diagnosis than meds. That does not make us any less capable than the phyisican as our skills are centered around two completely different things.

Thanks for the great replys!

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

nanackleman,
it doesn't matter what school you go to or what rank it is or how many of your profs are practicing pharmacists or phd and it doesn't matter what their opinon is of pharmacy school. it doesn't matter how many people in you class have some kind of degree. what matters is the definition of pharacy school is. pharmacy school is nationaly reconized as a six year program start to finish. end of story. people get into the top schools out of high school and finish in six years.

dgroulx · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by TotalKayOs
pharmacy school is nationaly reconized as a six year program start to finish. end of story. people get into the top schools out of high school and finish in six years.

What top schools accept people out of high school? Here in Florida, only Florida A&M is a six year program. It is generally viewed as a school to apply to if you can't get into any of the other Florida schools, or if you did poorly on the PCAT.

The students they accept out of high school are virtually all minority students, with race being a higher priority than GPA. After the 1st two years, they fill slots with rejects.

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

buffalo and albany.

jdpharmd? · Oct 21, 2003

Originally posted by TotalKayOs
nanackleman,
pharmacy school is nationaly reconized as a six year program start to finish. end of story.

No, it's not.

rutpharm · Oct 21, 2003

wow you guys and gals are really going at it here, hmm like I said before we're all going to be pharmacists the doctorate thing is just a degree, I mean doing that extra one year from the bachelor's degree makes us better clinicans but I hesitate to introduce my self as dr so and so... to the general public... I think it would confuse them plus put us in a bad light as trying to pass off as physicians

TotalKayOs · Oct 21, 2003

i agree with that. and i don't really care anymore about the defination of pharm school. all i know is that i'm not going to call myself or any other pharmacist by dr. i don't care if they are a pharm d or if they think it is rude. f'em.

carpe diem · Oct 22, 2003

I am a pharmacist (not PharmD) in med school now. I wish I had a PharmD 'cause then after med school I could introduce myself as "Dr Dr so and so"......just kidding. I'll be a DO so I guess I'll be DO RPh, MPH for good measure also. Carpe Diem DORPH.

I am proud to have my five-year pharmacy degree and was and am proud of my colleagues who are PharmD's. In clinical settings, most folks on the health care team seem to always refer to me as the pharmacist or "pharmacy", which I always thought was funny, having the entire profession riding on your recommendations. Sometimes staff and occasionally patients/families would refer to me as the PharmD and I'd always correct them.

Anyway, of course, PharmDs should be addressed as "doctor", as should nursing professionals who hold a doctorate.

SteveL · Oct 22, 2003

The university of toledo is a great school with a 99% passage rate on the boards (i think 5 yrs in a row now?). The university also does not require the PCAT. However, it is a six year program and very comp. Our average acceptance this past year was 3.5 science and overall GPA (not too shabby). The degree is two years of pre-req and four professional years (six total). I believe Ohio Northern is also six years. Both colleges accept students out of high school (I think they require a 1280 SAT and a 3.8 or something like that?). They must also hold a 3.5 or they will be dropped from contingent admission.

Just thought I'd add that in. As mentioned though, I don't think most COP are considered 6 years anymore. As competition is driving GPAs higher, 4 year degrees are what a lot of colleges look for, including ours.

vixen · Oct 24, 2003

I agree with TotalKayOs....

OBVIOUSLY there are doctors of different things (PhD, DDS, DO, MD, JD, etc)

But in a medical setting, its an MD or DO that is called doctor...otherwise you will confuse your patients....

If you had a PhD in English and expected people to call you doctor, don't be suprised when people in the non-medical field look to you during a medical emergency....how embarassing....

When you are working in CVS or in a hospital etc, and you need to call the doctor (MD), why would you want to call yourselves doctor and make it more confusing....

THINK ABOUT IT! You have the right to be called by whatever degree you have, but it doesnt mean anything....I'm getting my masters, should I be called master? How stupid! 🙄

chicoborja · Oct 24, 2003

The reason pharmacists are not addressed as Dr. is the same reason older customers still refer to their pharmacist as the druggist. The long-term habituation of a label almost always sticks longer than would be wanted. Pharmacy has only recently moved to a mandatory Pharm. D. and consequently it will take many years for the general public to understand that a pharmacist has a doctorate. This scenario is not exclusive to pharmacy though. More recent than pharmacy's transition to doctoral education are those professions of Audiology (Au. D.) and most recently Physical Therapy (D.P.T.). However these professionals may not encounter the same obstacles as Pharmacy because (1) these professions are relatively new in comparison to pharmacy which make their prescribed labels more submissive to change and (2) these professions have a greater amount of direct patient contact which may foster the doctor-patient relationship mentality within the patient.

just my two cents

Mark
pharmacy technician and audiology student

nanackleman · Oct 25, 2003

Originally posted by vixen
I agree with TotalKayOs....

OBVIOUSLY there are doctors of different things (PhD, DDS, DO, MD, JD, etc)

But in a medical setting, its an MD or DO that is called doctor...otherwise you will confuse your patients....

If you had a PhD in English and expected people to call you doctor, don't be suprised when people in the non-medical field look to you during a medical emergency....how embarassing....

When you are working in CVS or in a hospital etc, and you need to call the doctor (MD), why would you want to call yourselves doctor and make it more confusing....

THINK ABOUT IT! You have the right to be called by whatever degree you have, but it doesnt mean anything....I'm getting my masters, should I be called master? How stupid! 🙄

Please understand, that in a professional setting, professionals don't really refer to each other as "doctor this and doctor that" but they refer to each other as "physician" and "pharmacist" and really its not confusing at all.

Again, I have to disagree with the whole issue about the English doctorate.... this is not embarassing because the person is a doctor... has a doctorate... just not in medicine!

If you define doctor... you get this:
1. medicine: somebody qualified and licensed to give people medical treatment.
2. education: a title given to somebody who has been awarded a doctorate, the highest level of degree awarded by a university

Pharmacists are legally liscensed and qualified to provide medical treatment in many, many forms. Pharmacists also obtain a very high degree in an educational sense. There is no doubt in my mind that a pharmacist is a "doctor" and well... there ya go.

vixen · Oct 25, 2003

Originally posted by nanackleman
Please understand, that in a professional setting, professionals don't really refer to each other as "doctor this and doctor that" but they refer to each other as "physician" and "pharmacist" and really its not confusing at all.

Again, I have to disagree with the whole issue about the English doctorate.... this is not embarassing because the person is a doctor... has a doctorate... just not in medicine!

If you define doctor... you get this:
1. medicine: somebody qualified and licensed to give people medical treatment.
2. education: a title given to somebody who has been awarded a doctorate, the highest level of degree awarded by a university

Pharmacists are legally liscensed and qualified to provide medical treatment in many, many forms. Pharmacists also obtain a very high degree in an educational sense. There is no doubt in my mind that a pharmacist is a "doctor" and well... there ya go.

Obviously you didn't read and understand my post....once you can read it and understand what it says, then we can have a debate 🙄

LestatZinnie · Oct 25, 2003

it's obvious that nanackleman is adamant about being addressed as a 'doctor', despite what others feel about the appropriateness of doing so.

i personally think it's a bit of non-sense. he reminds of a TA in my anatomy lab. everytime I talk to him, the first thing he says to me is "Hi, I'm Dr. XXXX", as if it's the first time we've met. He's an MD btw, and obviously proud of his title. It strikes me as a bit funny- not as funny as the guy who insists on being called a doctor but is actually pharmD though.

in canada, there is no pharmD and a pharmacist is just someone who graduates from a 5 yr undergrad program. they don't even get the doctoral title but they can work in the states as pharmacists just fine.

nanackleman · Oct 25, 2003

Originally posted by LestatZinnie
it's obvious that nanackleman is adamant about being addressed as a 'doctor', despite what others feel about the appropriateness of doing so.

i personally think it's a bit of non-sense. he reminds of a TA in my anatomy lab. everytime I talk to him, the first thing he says to me is "Hi, I'm Dr. XXXX", as if it's the first time we've met. He's an MD btw, and obviously proud of his title. It strikes me as a bit funny- not as funny as the guy who insists on being called a doctor but is actually pharmD though.

in canada, there is no pharmD and a pharmacist is just someone who graduates from a 5 yr undergrad program. they don't even get the doctoral title but they can work in the states as pharmacists just fine.

Great, but in the US, all new practicing pharmacists must be a liscensed doctor of pharmacy. Those who have attained that degree of education and expertise should be recognized by being called Dr.

In clinical settings pharmacists have patients... perform treatments on patients... and even physicians introduce pharmacists to patients as "This is Dr. So and So"

Get over it okay. The truth is that yes.... those who have a doctorate... and any doctorate should be called Dr. Those who do not, should not.

Physicians are physicians.... pharmacists are pharmacists.... english Ph.D.s are english Ph.Ds.... but we are all Doctors of our chosen profession because of our level of knowledge and expertise.

Pilot · Oct 28, 2003

2 observations from my last 2 months. I'm an MS-IV with as BS in Pharmacy as well.

1) After rounds one day, I struck up a conversation with the Pharm D who rounded with the IM team. We came from the same Pharmacy school, although he was a few years behind me and had completed the mandatory Pharm D. He knew I am in my last year of medical school, but still made the off-hand comment that I was "only an R.Ph." I reminded him that after the 5 year pharmacy curriculum (2+3), I had gone one to complete 3 years of medical school and was in the process of completing year 4. I told him I must be much smarter than someone with "only a Pharm D" and a measly 6 years of college education. The debate ended and he left the physician lounge (that's right, the PHYSICIAN lounge).

2) After a code which I "ran" last month (with an attending watching), the nurse was getting everyone's names. The pharmacist was upset that the nurse wrote R.Ph. next to his name, and demanded that she change the initials to Pharm D "since I earned the degree." He made the comment that his was "not and R.Ph." I told her to place MS-IV, R.Ph. next to my name.

I am happy to have fellow "pharmacists" on rounds, and much prefer the attendings ask the pharmacist drug questions rather than pimping me. I cannot stand pharmacists who want to make the distinction of qualification between BS and Pharm D as lessor or greater degrees. It is just trying to boost your ego at the expense of others. We are all PHARMACISTS.

Just my 3 cents (much greater than just the two cents everyone else has been offering. I feel so much smarter than everyone now.😉 . Fire away.

baggywrinkle · Oct 28, 2003

"I cannot stand pharmacists who want to make the distinction of qualification between BS and Pharm D as lessor or greater degrees."

I once had the pleasure of working with a newly graduated Nigerian Pharm D. He had done a specialty in antibiotics and wasn't shy to tell you so. It also became apparent that he had an attitude problem which I later learned was actually a cultural bias. In Nigeria they adhere to a strict caste system and everyone knows their place. None-the-less I was dumbfounded when this a-hole would make an IV and hand it to me saying "Run this up they need it STAT" Early on it was no problem I would actually do it. This was a 100 bed hospital with a two pharmacist staff working the evening shift and no techs. When I realized what was up I suddenly became "busy", as in run it yourself mate! I had been an RPH for about eight years and had been at this hospital for about five. He was swimming in my pool.

Obviously this strained our relationship and all I had to do was stand back and let him twist in the wind. It didn't take long. The "Doctor" pissed off one of our primadonna physicians by telling him how inadequate his choice of antibiotics was. He lasted about two months in the position.....

The moral to the story is "Old age and treachery will always win out over youth and skill"

jdpharmd? · Oct 28, 2003

Originally posted by Pilot
2 observations from my last 2 months. I'm an MS-IV with as BS in Pharmacy as well.

2) After a code which I "ran" last month (with an attending watching), the nurse was getting everyone's names. The pharmacist was upset that the nurse wrote R.Ph. next to his name, and demanded that she change the initials to Pharm D "since I earned the degree." He made the comment that his was "not and R.Ph." I told her to place MS-IV, R.Ph. next to my name.

A PharmD would also be an R.Ph, unless he/she didn't have an active professional license, so I can't understand his objection to "RPh", since he IS one. I've seen faculty members (as well as authors) use the distinction "RPh, PharmD" or "RPh, PharmD, BCPS" after seemingly everything with their name's attached.

"since I earned the degree" seems like a somewhat valid complaint if that information is usually included on the forms. Would you be upset if someone wrote "DO" after your name and you were an "MD" or vice versa?

Do you plan to specialize in something that will utilize your skills as both a trained physician and pharmacist? (I guess oncology comes to mind fairly quickly, but there must be other disciplines like infectious disease, etc)

LestatZinnie · Oct 28, 2003

from the above anecdotes i'm wondering....in the hospital setting are pharmacists/pharm D under physicians in the hierachy?

one of my family friend is a pharmacist and one complaint he had was that he always got into arguments with physicians about drugs, etc. in that case who has the final say in what to give to the patient?

i'm currently in dent school that has a combined 18 month med/dent program and i must say some of the ppl really have an ego. i'm just glad that as a dentist i'll be the master of my domain :laugh:

and that no bloody physician can tell me what to.....keke.....

Dr JPH · Oct 28, 2003

Originally posted by Pilot

I am happy to have fellow "pharmacists" on rounds, and much prefer the attendings ask the pharmacist drug questions rather than pimping me. I cannot stand pharmacists who want to make the distinction of qualification between BS and Pharm D as lessor or greater degrees. It is just trying to boost your ego at the expense of others. We are all PHARMACISTS.

My PharmD girlfriend applauds your response. As do I.

JP
MS-II

jdpharmd? · Oct 28, 2003

Originally posted by JPHazelton

My PharmD girlfriend applauds your response. As do I.

JP
MS-II

Isn't it ironic that you make the distinction that she's a PharmD when you're applauding not making a distinction between BS and PharmDs? 😉

baggywrinkle · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by LestatZinnie
from the above anecdotes i'm wondering....in the hospital setting are pharmacists/pharm D under physicians in the hierachy?

one of my family friend is a pharmacist and one complaint he had was that he always got into arguments with physicians about drugs, etc. in that case who has the final say in what to give to the patient?

i'm currently in dent school that has a combined 18 month med/dent program and i must say some of the ppl really have an ego. i'm just glad that as a dentist i'll be the master of my domain and that no bloody physician can tell me what to.....keke.....

In hospital this is a truth. Physicians rule because they write the orders. If you have a blood and guts dispute a pharmacist can win in the short haul because he has the drugs and may refuse to dispense. But you can bet if the physician is upset enough to speak to the administrater about your job - especially if the Doc admits a lot of patients - the pharmacist will be sent packing. That is why refusing to dispense is such a big deal. It must be a matter of professional conviction that you are willing to sacrifice your job for. Happened to me over a huge tobramycin dose in a kid. I told him no way without peaks and troughs ordered. He was old line and didn't know what a peak and trough was. That went as far as the chief of staff before the physician blinked. Was I scared? You betcha boots! Fifteen years later I can still remember the kids name....

It is less true in retail. Physicians sometimes call and attempt to throw their weight around like they do in hospital - and they get all the attention they deserve. I am aware of some instances where physicians have actually gone after pharmacists through the State Board of Pharmacy by lodging a complaint. That sword, however, cuts both ways 🙂

LestatZinnie · Oct 29, 2003

...that's pretty sad considering the pharmacist would probably have better knowledge of drugs than the physician. i can totally understand why some pharmacists like my family friend feel bullied.

carpe diem · Oct 29, 2003

Another thought on pharmacist/doctor relations.......

A well-trained pharmacist can find something to tweek on virtually any patient's medication profile, whether the patient is in the hospital or is an outpatient. I think the key is knowing what kind of "tweeking" is actually clinically significant and not just "the best way of many good ways".

Realizing that a particular therapeutic intervention is not clinically significant and then keeping quiet about it takes more wisdom, skill, and emotional intelligence than speaking up about something that may be "right by the book or experience" but of minimal benefit clinically.

badxmojo · Oct 29, 2003

this is a great thread guys..thse last couple posts by carpie diem and baggy wrinkle are really informative and helpful to someone like me who is intrested in working as clinical pharmacist. I guess there more to it then just knowing your drugs inside out. I hope those physicians don't get to mean.. at what point do you think they become the stereotypical low pateince condescedding know it alls? cuase my freinds in med school are as nice as nice can be.

SteveL · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by carpe diem
Another thought on pharmacist/doctor relations.......

A well-trained pharmacist can find something to tweek on virtually any patient's medication profile, whether the patient is in the hospital or is an outpatient. I think the key is knowing what kind of "tweeking" is actually clinically significant and not just "the best way of many good ways".

Realizing that a particular therapeutic intervention is not clinically significant and then keeping quiet about it takes more wisdom, skill, and emotional intelligence than speaking up about something that may be "right by the book or experience" but of minimal benefit clinically.

Agreed. I've spent enough time in the pharmacy to see that drugs/dosages can be "tweaked" to optimize outcomes but have learned enough to also let it go and not undermine the DO/MD. In the end, as long as it's not making a huge difference in TO, it's really not worth wasting a physician's time to call/page them, and discuss the matter with them. Maybe if you were doing rounds with them you could put in your "four cents - lol" and make them see your point, but it's quite another thing to page/call a phys to have a chat about it. As a pharmacy intern, I hate to be bothered with insignificant arguments like that as well. Mind you, as of right now I can only answer some basic questions, etc (under the pharmacist of course), but I see it with our grad interns too. Once you BECOME a pharmacist, most of you will have learned to ignore little things like that. If anything, in a retail setting, you may mention it to a patient that her dosage may need adjusting and that next time they see their phys, to talk to them about it. Other than that, the MDs, DOs, DDS, pharmDs, BS, RPh's (whatever/whoever) doesn't have enough time to care about stuff like that. Especially in a HVpharmacy;

I decided to put this seperate because it's kind of important for some ppl to grasp:

Personally, the only real thing I care about is the big mistakes, not the small ones (That is, the "tweaks," not to be mistaken for detail)

peace my healthcare peeps...

Stupid Question--> Does having a PharmD make you a Dr.?

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