So... Is Psych really not that competitive?

xanthines · Jun 14, 2007

I've recently become more interested in psych and less interested in path for residency, which admittedly is still a long time ahead (I'm just starting the PhD part of an MSTP). I actually enjoyed the psychopathology class in second year med school and interviewing the psych patients was pretty cool. I'm a pretty patient guy as others have told me, so I really do think I'd be OK dealing with psych all day. That, and there doesn't seem to be too much advanced research in psychiatry (you know, as compared to biochemistry or immunology), so I think there would be many opportunities for research. Academics appears to be my destiny...

So even though I'm MSTP, I didn't actually do very well on Step1... and by not very well, I mean about as bad as you can do without actually failing. I'm 1 or 2 SD's below the mean, I think.

When I apply for residencies I will have genuine interest, a PhD, and a hopefully solid Step2 score. What will hold me back is a very poor Step1 and no proof of the genuine interest beyond elective rotations in psych.

I guess I'd like to know how selective I can be in choosing residency programs, ie Am I going to be sentenced to the backwaters of Alaskan psychiatry? (nothing against Alaska, of course!) 🙂

-X

P.S. The trigger for the question is thay my psych prof was telling me I could fail both Step 1 & 2 twice before passing, barely pass med school classes, have bad BO, and still go to Harvard's program. I'm pretty sure she was speaking in hyperbole. 😉

OldPsychDoc · Jun 14, 2007

If your PhD is in molecular biology or neuroscience, you can prepare to be wined, dined, actively salivated over, and possibly seduced by psychiatry programs. You will have your pick of programs.

xanthines said:
I've recently become more interested in psych and less interested in path for residency, which admittedly is still a long time ahead (I'm just starting the PhD part of an MSTP). I actually enjoyed the psychopathology class in second year med school and interviewing the psych patients was pretty cool. I'm a pretty patient guy as others have told me, so I really do think I'd be OK dealing with psych all day. That, and there doesn't seem to be too much advanced research in psychiatry (you know, as compared to biochemistry or immunology), so I think there would be many opportunities for research. Academics appears to be my destiny...

So even though I'm MSTP, I didn't actually do very well on Step1... and by not very well, I mean about as bad as you can do without actually failing. I'm 1 or 2 SD's below the mean, I think.

When I apply for residencies I will have genuine interest, a PhD, and a hopefully solid Step2 score. What will hold me back is a very poor Step1 and no proof of the genuine interest beyond elective rotations in psych.

I guess I'd like to know how selective I can be in choosing residency programs, ie Am I going to be sentenced to the backwaters of Alaskan psychiatry? (nothing against Alaska, of course!) 🙂

-X

P.S. The trigger for the question is thay my psych prof was telling me I could fail both Step 1 & 2 twice before passing, barely pass med school classes, have bad BO, and still go to Harvard's program. I'm pretty sure she was speaking in hyperbole. 😉

I'll defer to Doc Samson on this, but I suspect it may depend on which specific Harvard program...😀

xanthines · Jun 14, 2007

Well, no PhD in neuroscience for me but I don't think too many people actually get degrees in "molecular biology" anymore. Research has gotten a lot more topical lately (I took more than a few years off between undergrad and MSTP to be a lab tech). My work does involve a lot biochemistry and molecular biology, but it doesn't have anything to do with the mind/brain except in a very remote and specific way. Can I still have my pick of programs? I don't mind forgoing the wining, dining, and seducing. Well, depends on who's doing that last one! 😉

-X

P.S. I love P.S.'s! Which journals are generally regarded as the better ones for psychiatric research? I'm a little hesitant to sally forth based on nothing but impact factors...

OldPsychDoc said:
If your PhD is in molecular biology or neuroscience, you can prepare to be wined, dined, actively salivated over, and possibly seduced by psychiatry programs. You will have your pick of programs.

werewethere · Jun 14, 2007

I know people who have matched at Harvard psych with relatively poor board scores and other negatives, and without a PhD. However, it was clear they were meant to be psychiatrists based on their interests. So, keep working on your interests and get that PhD, you'll have great options.

Doc Samson · Jun 14, 2007

As OPD intimated, it depends on the Harvard program... but at the research oriented programs you will be competing against MD/PhDs who also have great board scores.
At the top-tier programs, psychiatry residency is just as competitive as any other specialty - it's just that the criteria that define a "competitive" candidate vary from those of ophtho, derm, etc. While board scores are certainly not a sine qua non for gaining an interview, they are a significant variable in the equation.
If you have a certain program in mind, the single best thing you can do is to spend a month elective there and shine like a superstar to wash away any doubts they might have about your scores.

atsai3 · Jun 14, 2007

xanthines said:
P.S. I love P.S.'s! Which journals are generally regarded as the better ones for psychiatric research? I'm a little hesitant to sally forth based on nothing but impact factors...

General-interest journals are still best for publishing. If you have a clinical or pharmacological paper on a topic that is of high import, then New England Journal, JAMA, Science, Nature, etc. may be interested in publishing it. Next in line would be American Journal of Psychiatry and Archives of General Psychiatry. If you have a health services paper on a topic that is of high import or demonstrating a method that is potentially generalizable to other fields, then Journal of Health Economics, Health Services Research, or Medical Care. Second line would be Psychiatric Services. And if you have a drug company-sponsored pilot study that you stitched together in order to collect pilot data for a grant application and are trying to get it published somewhere, anywhere... then try for the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry.

-AT.

MBK2003 · Jun 15, 2007

atsai3 said:
General-interest journals are still best for publishing. If you have a clinical or pharmacological paper on a topic that is of high import, then New England Journal, JAMA, Science, Nature, etc. may be interested in publishing it. Next in line would be American Journal of Psychiatry and Archives of General Psychiatry. If you have a health services paper on a topic that is of high import or demonstrating a method that is potentially generalizable to other fields, then Journal of Health Economics, Health Services Research, or Medical Care. Second line would be Psychiatric Services. And if you have a drug company-sponsored pilot study that you stitched together in order to collect pilot data for a grant application and are trying to get it published somewhere, anywhere... then try for the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry.

-AT.

That is such a fabulous way to capture the major psychiatry journals, made me really 😀

MBK2003

juddson · Jun 16, 2007

There was a list floating around here some time ago which appeared to list the average (or was it minimum) board scores required to gain entry into the various psychiatry programs around the country.

I'm intrigued by the fact that the OP is (was) bouncing around BOTH Psychiatry and Pathology as possible residency options. For whatever it is worth, I'm also considering both quite seriously - though I can't say one has yet crowded out the other. Though these fields have little in common (and the day to day work is anything but), I gather they tend to draw from the same pool of personalities. I dig both of them.

My question regards just how competitive these top psych programs tend to be. Somebody posted this incredible list of accomplishments a successful candidate to Harvard (or whatever) surely demonstrates (AOA, 10 publications, 250's step 1 and 2, etc., etc) which has me encredulous. I gather all of these attributes might be found among the matriculants, but not all (or even most) of them in one.

Judd

cleareyedguy · Jun 25, 2007

Board scores were originally designed to be pass/fail and not to be used to compare people who passed. Having said that, programs do look at scores, and the top programs do pay attention and often do have biases towards people with scores of 220 or 230+. Much of that has to do, however, with the fact that there are often no appreciable on-paper differences among the very strong, well-rounded applicants who apply.

Two cents:

The PhD trumps a poor step 1, and the top programs like to have to have a couple PhD's in a class (Stanford would be an extreme, since they seem to want the whole class to be MD-PhD's). These programs don't want poor clinicians, however, and bad grades in clerkships--especially medicine, which is probably more important than psych--will doom an application at a top tier program. And equally important to clinical acumen are passion and curiosity, since these programs can put up with oddity but they tend to loathe laziness.

atsai3 · Jun 26, 2007

juddson said:
My question regards just how competitive these top psych programs tend to be.

I would echo Doc Samson's posting. If you have any red flags on your application, then you will probably be passed up for an interview. Stanford receives approximately 325 applications and grants about 100 interviews. UW interviews 75 candidates -- the dean's letter is the most important element in your application. UCSF interviews 75 candidates (and few years ago, they got so many applications they couldn't even offer interviews to all of its own students; somewhere in the neighborhood of 20+ UCSF students had applied that year.)

Cheers
-AT.

xanthines · Jun 26, 2007

I'm still undecided. I went into med school from a pathology lab and was probably the only one in my class that came in declaring intentions in pathology (specifically AP, no less). It appeals to my intellectual side as well as the odd fact that I seem to have this thing for optics (I'm really into astronomy and photography, in addition to microscopy).

On the other hand, psychiatry is really fascinating and appeals to my humanitarian side. I feel like mental health patients get kind of screwed in our health care system so sometimes I like to think I could actually help someone. It's funny and cute when a 2 year old can't articulate what's wrong with them, but when a smelly 57 year old man does it, it's annoying and disgusting.

I was very happy to learn there are quite a many research opportunities in psych, hence the recent rise in interest. As for inquiring to the competitiveness of psychiatry programs, I want to go to a specific region in the U.S. where my future significant other wants to live (her turn to pick where we live is long overdue, believe me). This place is not especially known for its uber-competitiveness in medical things, but is still quite respected. I wanted to guage how competitive top programs are to get an idea of where I stand.

Time to get back to work...

-X

juddson said:
There was a list floating around here some time ago which appeared to list the average (or was it minimum) board scores required to gain entry into the various psychiatry programs around the country.

I'm intrigued by the fact that the OP is (was) bouncing around BOTH Psychiatry and Pathology as possible residency options. For whatever it is worth, I'm also considering both quite seriously - though I can't say one has yet crowded out the other. Though these fields have little in common (and the day to day work is anything but), I gather they tend to draw from the same pool of personalities. I dig both of them.

My question regards just how competitive these top psych programs tend to be. Somebody posted this incredible list of accomplishments a successful candidate to Harvard (or whatever) surely demonstrates (AOA, 10 publications, 250's step 1 and 2, etc., etc) which has me encredulous. I gather all of these attributes might be found among the matriculants, but not all (or even most) of them in one.

Judd

So... Is Psych really not that competitive?

xanthines

decaying organic matter

OldPsychDoc

Senior Curmudgeon

xanthines

decaying organic matter

werewethere

Full Member

Doc Samson

gamma irradiated

atsai3

Full Member

MBK2003

Senior Member

juddson

3K Member

cleareyedguy

Junior Member

atsai3

Full Member

xanthines

decaying organic matter

Similar threads