Looking at the Future - With no Debt, How Much Would You Still Practice For?

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What is the least you would work for if med school was free?

  • $50,000 - $75,000

    Votes: 21 8.4%
  • $75,000 - 100,000

    Votes: 35 14.0%
  • 100,000 - 125,000

    Votes: 57 22.8%
  • 125,000 - 150,000

    Votes: 43 17.2%
  • 150,000 - 175,000

    Votes: 34 13.6%
  • 175,000 +

    Votes: 60 24.0%

  • Total voters
    250

DrArete

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This is a 2005 comparison of physician salaries in other countries with the USA.

0,1020,575805,00.jpg


Keep in mind that these figures are adjusted for PPP, that in other countries no one has the massive debt like in the USA, and that salaries in the USA will face long term downward pressure as the healthcare system gradually becomes fully nationalized.

So, let's imagine in the future that the government is running healthcare, and that you get to go to med school for free...what is the minimum salary level you would be willing to accept after finishing your residency?
 
If med school was free I would definitely work for the lowest amount up there. It does not seem a lot compared to actual doctor salaries, but I know a ton of people who support them and their families on that salary. It is hard, but still possible
 
Even if Med School were free, I would still want to be nicely compensated for 10 years or so of incredibly vigorous schooling that takes away most of your free time during the prime time of your life.

I don't see anything wrong with somebody wanting to get paid a fair amount of money based on their training and expertise. Also, just because some people want >$175,000 doesn't mean they went into medicine for the money. Me, for example, I went into medicine because luckily that is what interests me. However, my family and travel are also important to me so if medicine only paid $50,000 or $75,000 I wouldn't even have considered it. I have plenty of other interests besides medicine, and I could have been happy in a number of fields.
 
Depends on the hours I put it to my training and the average number of hours I work during a week.

If, like an English GP, I put 60 hours a week into 6 years of education, followed by 3 years of 80 hours/week residency, followed by a 40 hour/week practice I'd be more than content with an 80K sarting salary climbing to 140K by the end of my career. No more or less than your average engineer.

If, however, I'm an American Ortho and I've been workig 100 hour abusive work weeks from age 18 to 33, followed by a 'light' practice schedule of 60 hours/week plus CME, I would expect at least 350K/year, probably more.

It's not just about debt, people forget how much less foreign medical training asks from physysians in terms of time and effort.
 
I'd just be happy to have a stable job that is purposeful and puts food on the table. Most people can't get both.

If med school was free I would definitely work for the lowest amount up there. It does not seem a lot compared to actual doctor salaries, but I know a ton of people who support them and their families on that salary. It is hard, but still possible

Oh dear........
 
This is a 2005 comparison of physician salaries in other countries with the USA.

0,1020,575805,00.jpg


Keep in mind that these figures are adjusted for PPP, that in other countries no one has the massive debt like in the USA, and that salaries in the USA will face long term downward pressure as the healthcare system gradually becomes fully nationalized.

So, let's imagine in the future that the government is running healthcare, and that you get to go to med school for free...what is the minimum salary level you would be willing to accept after finishing your residency?

Adjusting for PPP doesn't take into account the massive differences between GDP per capita. Making $48k in the US is just as average as making $39k in Australia is average. Adjusting for PPP means you're taking into account the differences in price levels among countries, not the relative GDP's per capita. The way you're mentioning it as if it's a big deal makes me believe you don't fully understand what purchasing power parity is.

Doctors in the US make, according to that chart, 5.6x our GDP per capita.

Doctors in Australia make, according to that chart, 5.2x their GDP per capita.

Doctors in the Netherlands make 4.4x their GDP per capita.

It'd be idiotic to say "look, farmers in the US make 2000 times as much as farmers in North Korea, so our farmer's shouldn't complain about getting their profits slashed by 80%!" Once you correct for differences in GDP per capita, the salary differential across countries is rather small.

If government's running health care, I'd want more pay because I'd have to deal with their inefficient bull****. If they don't pay for med school, minimum $300k. If they do pay for med school, minimum $270k. Or $200k if I get a 40 hour work week and get med school paid for.

Otherwise, I'd go to law. I'd have my debts paid off, have a nice car, have a down payment on a home, and I'd be making more than $200k by the time I'd be an attending. (Yeah yeah, you're thinking "no way because it's so hard to get a good job in law," but I know exactly how hard it is - I've looked at the statistics thoroughly. I'm confident I could get a job in Big law if I really wanted)
 
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Adjusting for PPP doesn't take into account the massive differences between GDP per capita. Making $48k in the US is just as average as making $39k in Australia is average. Adjusting for PPP means you're taking into account the differences in price levels among countries, not the relative GDP's per capita.

Doctors in the US make, according to that chart, 5.6x our GDP per capita.

Doctors in Australia make, according to that chart, 5.2x their GDP per capita.

Doctors in the Netherlands make 4.4x their GDP per capita.

It'd be idiotic to say "look, farmers in the US make 2000 times as much as farmers in North Korea, so our farmer's shouldn't complain about getting their profits slashed by 80%!" Once you correct for differences in GDP per capita, the salary differential across countries is rather small.

If government's running health care, I'd want more pay because I'd have to deal with their inefficient bull****. If they don't pay for med school, minimum $330k. If they do pay for med school, minimum $250k. Or $200k if I get a 40 hour work week and get med school paid for.

Otherwise, I'd go to law.



Thats not exactly accurate, take a look at this info, which provides a variety of different comparisons:

http://medicalspamd.com/the-blog/2009/7/15/what-do-doctors-make.html
 
Thats not exactly accurate, take a look at this info, which provides a variety of different comparisons:

http://medicalspamd.com/the-blog/2009/7/15/what-do-doctors-make.html

Thanks.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/15/business/economy/crsdoctors.jpg

That basically proves my point. US specialists aren't making the most relative to everyone else in the country - Australian specialists are (7.6x their per capita GDP).

Salary/GDP per capita is also similar for the Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, and the UK.
 
med school being free wouldn't have an effect on what pay I'd be satisfied with. ~200K is a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things. Not enough to warrant cutting my income for my whole career
 
Depends on the hours I put it to my training and the average number of hours I work during a week.

If, like an English GP, I put 60 hours a week into 6 years of education, followed by 3 years of 80 hours/week residency, followed by a 40 hour/week practice I'd be more than content with an 80K sarting salary climbing to 140K by the end of my career. No more or less than your average engineer.

If, however, I'm an American Ortho and I've been workig 100 hour abusive work weeks from age 18 to 33, followed by a 'light' practice schedule of 60 hours/week plus CME, I would expect at least 350K/year, probably more.

It's not just about debt, people forget how much less foreign medical training asks from physysians in terms of time and effort.

I agree with this, dont forget about malpractice too. The work less hours so of course they are gonna be paid less.
 
Otherwise, I'd go to law. I'd have my debts paid off, have a nice car, have a down payment on a home, and I'd be making more than $200k by the time I'd be an attending. (Yeah yeah, you're thinking "no way because it's so hard to get a good job in law," but I know exactly how hard it is - I've looked at the statistics thoroughly. I'm confident I could get a job in Big law if I really wanted)

I've thought a lot about law. Law is becoming horribly oversaturated, with new law schools opening every year. Unless you're the top of your class at a T14, you're chances are slim to none in Big Law, at least in this economy. And hours in big law = blegh. Worse than medicine in many cases, but they at least get compensated semi-accordingly.
 
I don't think the discrepancy for most is the debt. It's more about the erosion of 11+ years of post-high school education. Combined with the sheer amount of life sacrifices we all make. I mean most people in colleges spend so much time partying and having fun, socializing etc. But what do the premeds do? We study and panic over our classes and go far and beyond to fight for A's in classes most people simply aren't interested in.
The end result if doctors weren't highly compensated, there would without a doubt be much less people applying to medical school.

However this is again just my personal opinion. Some people might very well enjoy the thrills of being a pre-med. Some people might very well be drawn the medicine in a near altruistic manner. But it's my personal opinion that those people make up less then 5% of medical school applicants.
 
To me, the monetary debt (while large) is not the biggest issue. TIME is.

Assuming one is a traditional student, they sacrifice nearly their entire 20s. Not only do they endure the stresses of medical school and residency (and notwithstanding other issues with marriage and loved ones), but also the salary forgone. Multiple of my close friends left college with jobs paying $55k+ and that adds up over the years (assuming time value of money). And don't let anyone tell you that you make a "fair" wage while being a resident. For the hours put in and the skill you possess, you're barely cracking minimum wage (if that).

I will never understand anyone who believes that doctors should be paid less than $100k/yr. They are the ones who only see the bottom line and don't take into account the sweat/tears/sacrifice of the journey. I believe that doctors should be paid what their skill and sacrifice is worth--$200k+ at least.
 
These threads annoy me because there are always naive little premeds that thing making 60k a year as a doctor is ok because its all about helping people and being a productive member of society. For most of you, I'm sure this will change as you get older.. I know it did for me. When I started college, yes I wanted to be a doctor and yes I cared about money, but money was secondary, or even further back in my mind. Now, its #1... I'm going to bust my ass in medical school and try and get into a specialty that pays $200k+, money runs the world and to be honest being a PCP sucks, they get payed less, have debt (unless you want to work on an idaho potato farm and take the government grant) and are being overrun by midlevels in many arenas by me. w.e. thats my .02
 
These threads annoy me because there are always naive little premeds that thing making 60k a year as a doctor is ok because its all about helping people and being a productive member of society. For most of you, I'm sure this will change as you get older.. I know it did for me. When I started college, yes I wanted to be a doctor and yes I cared about money, but money was secondary, or even further back in my mind. Now, its #1... I'm going to bust my ass in medical school and try and get into a specialty that pays $200k+, money runs the world and to be honest being a PCP sucks, they get payed less, have debt (unless you want to work on an idaho potato farm and take the government grant) and are being overrun by midlevels in many arenas by me. w.e. thats my .02

It changes for just about everyone. There's a reason derm and PRS are the two most competitive specialties. Money makes the world go round, it will just take some of you longer to realize it.
 
There are a lot of jobs (even in healthcare) where you can help people and put food on the table. None of them require the amount of training and sacrifice of medicine. That is why doctors get paid more.

Stop selling yourselves short to look altruistic. US Doctors are worth a lot.

Let's not even talk about Germany. Anyone who's done research into the issue knows that German HC sucks for doctors and is rife with bureaucratic corruption, which is why they rioted a few years back.
 
Even if Medical School were free, someone willing to be a Doctor for 50k has to be a joke.

My situation is pretty close to the scenario posed (no loans, all doors open), and I'd practice for $50k/year. Yes, my time input and training may be extensive, but it's easy enough to live on that amount, especially if a spouse adds income to the pot. I don't really need a fancy house or a fancy car - I just need to enjoy how I'm spending my time.
 
My situation is pretty close to the scenario posed (no loans, all doors open), and I'd practice for $50k/year. Yes, my time input and training may be extensive, but it's easy enough to live on that amount, especially if a spouse adds income to the pot. I don't really need a fancy house or a fancy car - I just need to enjoy how I'm spending my time.

But you aren't turning down a higher pay package, right?

We aren't taking a vow of poverty, people. This ain't the priesthood.
 
For what it's worth:

After investing 10+ years into my studies, I expect my net salary to be at least within the $150,000 range. Suppose you do receive a free ride, you're sacrificing your twenties and devoting the vast majority of your free time to medical studies. Time is, by far, the largest sacrifice.
 
My situation is pretty close to the scenario posed (no loans, all doors open), and I'd practice for $50k/year. Yes, my time input and training may be extensive, but it's easy enough to live on that amount, especially if a spouse adds income to the pot. I don't really need a fancy house or a fancy car - I just need to enjoy how I'm spending my time.

Okay then put your money where your mouth is. Open up a private practice in something like family medicine and take only Medicaid patients. You will probably only make 50k doing that, but you would be greatly serving a population that is in desperate need. I highly doubt you will do this, though. When the time comes you will probably choose money over helping the greatest amount of people in need. I hope I'm wrong, though, the world needs people who can not only talk like you, but actually follow through with what they say. I hope you follow through with what you say.
I don't need a fancy house or a fancy car either, but I would like to be able to live how I want to live (in terms of travelling with my kids, helping my kids with college, golfing, eating out at restaurants, going to concerts and plays, etc...). Tough to do a lot of what I want to do on 50k.

I will I say I truly admire you if you would be happy on 50k after 10 years of grueling training. But, I FOR SURE would not be.
 
I don't understand all the entitlement in here. Yes, doctors are extremely skilled and take a lot of time to train. However, the same goes for other educational tracks which do not lead to the same stability and high wages (eg. law, PhD, etc.). I'm not saying that as a hypothetical debt-free doctor that I wouldn't take a better compensation package if offered, nor that I shouldn't be fairly compensated for my time. However, to say that my time is valuable to the tune of at the very least $175k+ is pretty narcissistic methinks.

How dare people want to get paid for doing a JOB. The nerve!
 
However, to say that my time is valuable to the tune of at the very least $175k+ is pretty narcissistic methinks.

So me wanting to get compensated at about the same level as the average physician is narcissistic? Since when?
 
I don't understand all the entitlement in here. Yes, doctors are extremely skilled and take a lot of time to train. However, the same goes for other educational tracks which do not lead to the same stability and high wages (eg. law, PhD, etc.). I'm not saying that as a hypothetical debt-free doctor that I wouldn't take a better compensation package if offered, nor that I shouldn't be fairly compensated for my time. However, to say that my time is valuable to the tune of at the very least $175k+ is pretty narcissistic methinks.

I absolutely disagree. My friends have houses, cars, and a family, as well as time off. The best part about it is - when they are done with work for the day, they're done. As in, they don't work an 8 hour day and then read for 3 or 4 or 5 hours before falling asleep.

And the kicker is - my friends didn't grow up in well-off families, they aren't particularly making a lot of money. One only went to 1 year of college. But, they are making enough money to get by and enjoy their plentiful TIME.

I don't have that. I won't have that for another 10 years. My wife laments that and I don't blame her.

I still consider my interests in academics and helping people to be my primary reason for wanting to be a doctor, but there has got to be some tangible payoff one of these days.

Every time you think doctors may be asking for too much, just read this and consider your comment on what you call an "entitlement mentality."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/ap...15-says-she-needs-help-justice/news-breaking/
 
However, to say that my time is valuable to the tune of at the very least $175k+ is pretty narcissistic methinks.

Your time right now is worthless. After 8 years of post-college training though? After a lifetime of medical experience?
 
Have you noticed how these threads usually end up being very depressing and make us remember that our lives are rather short?
 
I haven't bothered to read through all of this thread but has nobody else considered the fact that in most other places doctors do not go through as much schooling as they do in the US..?

just a thought.
 
By the way, I've made this mistake in my post too, but I feel like pre-meds tend to overestimate the amount of debt repayment they'll have to do.

Let's say you're an average person and you took out 156,456 in loans to pay for med school, and it accumulates to $186k at 6% a year by the end of your residency. That's still only $16k a year of payments ($1330 a month) for 20 years, assuming a 6% interest rate.

So if you're willing to work for $50k with no med school loans, then you would be willing to work for $80k (let's say ~half of the extra $30k goes to taxes) with $180k in debt at 6% interest. Your after tax, after loan payment income would be exactly the same. And after 20 years, your after tax, after loan payment income would be $30k higher.

To those who chose $50-75k: really? You'd be willing to work for around $80-110k a year, the same as PA's do, for your 7-11 years of post-college training and $186k debt over your head? If not, I think there's some sort of irrationality in play.
 
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Have you noticed how these threads usually end up being very depressing and make us remember that our lives are rather short?

Interviewer: Have there ever been any instances where you've been forced to come to terms with your own mortality?

You: Yes, SDN salary and debt threads.
 
Interviewer: Have there ever been any instances where you've been forced to come to terms with your own mortality?

You: Yes, SDN salary and debt threads.
:laugh: nice, yeah sometimes i think about it, than i think about everything else i could be doing and decide its still worth it 🙂
 
How dare people want to get paid for doing a JOB. The nerve!
This is pretty much how I feel when pre meds tell me that nurses (or any other job) gets paid too much. And any time any other profession gets an increase, pre meds are the first to bitch that doctors aren't getting more.


:cry:
 
That's great anecdotal evidence. I have some of my own: of a single mother who worked 80-100 hour weeks to barely scrape over the poverty line. College educated, law school, did all the "right things" yet still stuck in a time-consuming dead-end job and making little more than minimum wage. Should she expect a tangible payoff? Yes, physicians work hard and I believe they should be compensated fairly for their labor. But to say that "fairly" only starts at 3x the medium household income is... well, I don't know. Physicians have control over a valuable trade (in its application and its scarcity). I believe that has lead many to consider the profession as indispensable, the workers infallible, and thus has bred an elevated expectation for what the system should look like, pay rates and all.

If she "did all the right things," I doubt she'd be making minimum wage.

Let me guess - she didn't go to a T14 law school? If she chose to go to a non-T14 law school, she better have been fully willing to live off min wage. The supply of low-end lawyers is ridiculously large.

Compensation isn't determined by how hard you work or how long it takes. It's determined by supply and demand (or at least should be for maximum efficiency, perhaps regulated for quality and corrected for market failure). $175k salary is below the supply and demand equilibrium for physicians, so it'd be a rip off for us, regardless of what you or I think of what we deserve or what our time is worth.
 
To me, the monetary debt (while large) is not the biggest issue. TIME is.

Assuming one is a traditional student, they sacrifice nearly their entire 20s. Not only do they endure the stresses of medical school and residency (and notwithstanding other issues with marriage and loved ones), but also the salary forgone. Multiple of my close friends left college with jobs paying $55k+ and that adds up over the years (assuming time value of money). And don't let anyone tell you that you make a "fair" wage while being a resident. For the hours put in and the skill you possess, you're barely cracking minimum wage (if that).

I will never understand anyone who believes that doctors should be paid less than $100k/yr. They are the ones who only see the bottom line and don't take into account the sweat/tears/sacrifice of the journey. I believe that doctors should be paid what their skill and sacrifice is worth--$200k+ at least.

time is money, money isn't time. i agree with u.
 
I'm a little surprised at how surprised I am by the number of people saying they would only consider practicing for $175,000+. I guess for me it comes down to the fact that in any of the other careers I'd truly be interested in pursuing, I couldn't even dream of making that much. Medicine will be a big step up for me regardless.
 
This is a 2005 comparison of physician salaries in other countries with the USA.

0,1020,575805,00.jpg


Keep in mind that these figures are adjusted for PPP, that in other countries no one has the massive debt like in the USA, and that salaries in the USA will face long term downward pressure as the healthcare system gradually becomes fully nationalized.

So, let's imagine in the future that the government is running healthcare, and that you get to go to med school for free...what is the minimum salary level you would be willing to accept after finishing your residency?


That $267,000 mark is before malpractice insurance. I haven't met a hospital doctor making more than $250k a year before tax and before malpractice insurance.
 
People bring this up all the time and I'm going to do it again:

Why are premeds concerned with how little they would do the job for? Again, it's trying to prove that they're altruistic, because they think that's how you get into med school.

This is seriously the only profession where people are clamoring for decreases in pay, even before they've put in any work. Wake up.

Seriously, it's ****ing stupid.
 
Theoritically speaking... for all the sacrifices that one makes to become a physician money can, at most, distract us from thinking about it. However, I am also an idealistic in saying that for those who are doing this path for legitimate reasons the sacrifice won't feel as such. Just another rite of passage, is all.

I'm voting for $100,000 just because it sounds cool to be in the exclusive "6 figure club".
 
From what I have seen, it's a select amount and type of person who can endure the schooling and have the intellectual capacity to become a doctor as well as sacrifice the large chunk of their life for the schooling. Due to the highly selective and competitive nature of the field as well as the type of job done and the high price of medical technologies and medical supplies: I chose the $175k+. I don't think doctors are just entitled to money because they save lives, but I think the whole equation adds up to them deserving the type of money that makes the job worth it. I would go insane if I busted my butt for that long and was making less than my friends who went to undergrad, partied every weekend for 4 years, and are now making 6-figs. Being a doctor is one of my main goals in life, but I have other priorities such as having a family and kids and being able to spend time with them and being able to give them the lifestyle I was able to grow up in. I will be forced to give up time with my family due to the type of job, I shouldn't have to sacrifice a college fund for my children or a nice vacation here and there as well as a nice house in a safe neighborhood. I know that $100k a year can take you very far if you are a wise spender, but $200k is necessary to buy nice Italian suits, have a sweet pool table, own a couple time shares, have some jet skis etc. I am becoming a doctor #1 to keep myself alive, #2 to be able to put food on the table for my family, #3 because it is the type of job I enjoy (dealing with people and science as well as having that type of impact in people's lives).

If being a doctor only satisfied #3 and not #1 and #2 I would choose a different career path. I know that $175k may be more than enough to live a comfortable life, but $100k a year is not that competitive of a salary anymore.

Lowering of physician salaries will demoralize many great physicians as well as drive away students from the career. Doctors are smart people though and will find ways to make money.
 
I don't think doctors are just entitled to money because they save lives, but I think the whole equation adds up to them deserving the type of money that makes the job worth it.
Yes. Doctors are the only ones that work hard for a lengthy period of time and make many sacrifices in the process. Doctors >>> everyone else.
I would go insane if I busted my butt for that long and was making less than my friends who went to undergrad, partied every weekend for 4 years, and are now making 6-figs.
The problem is that you assume that everyone who wasn't premed in undergrad sailed through. Uh, premed or whatever you want to call it, isn't necessarily the hardest major in college. Furthermore, I know premeds who did party every weekend and I know non premeds who didn't party every weekend. The next problem is that you assume most 4 year undergrads all make 100K or more. This is so far form reality. Most 4 year grads will never make 100K. Ever. Seriously. I'd like to meet some of these 4 year grads coming out of Oakland University making 6+ figures/year.
Being a doctor is one of my main goals in life, but I have other priorities such as having a family and kids and being able to spend time with them and being able to give them the lifestyle I was able to grow up in. I will be forced to give up time with my family due to the type of job, I shouldn't have to sacrifice a college fund for my children or a nice vacation here and there as well as a nice house in a safe neighborhood.
Awww. Sounds like a personal problem....life's just not fair! Still real no meaty justification for having such inflated salaries.....other than that you want one. Lots of people with graduate degrees have to make the same sacrifices. Deal with it.
$100k a year is not that competitive of a salary anymore.
Last time I checked, the average American salary was somewhere like mid 50k.
Lowering of physician salaries will demoralize many great physicians as well as drive away students from the career.
demoralize? Please. Demoralize is the chick with a grad degree in art history that's waiting tables at the local pizza place for minimum wage.
 
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I don't think the discrepancy for most is the debt. It's more about the erosion of 11+ years of post-high school education. Combined with the sheer amount of life sacrifices we all make. I mean most people in colleges spend so much time partying and having fun, socializing etc. But what do the premeds do? We study and panic over our classes and go far and beyond to fight for A's in classes most people simply aren't interested in.
The end result if doctors weren't highly compensated, there would without a doubt be much less people applying to medical school.

However this is again just my personal opinion. Some people might very well enjoy the thrills of being a pre-med. Some people might very well be drawn the medicine in a near altruistic manner. But it's my personal opinion that those people make up less then 5% of medical school applicants.

I just don't think this is true at all.

Over the past ten years, physicians salaries have steadily decreased when you take into account inflation and malpractice, yet applications have gone up for medical school, and the stats have improved.

Perhaps, if you were to cut salaries in half, starting tomorrow, there would be a huge impact.

However, when the decrease is a percent or two a year, no one really notices enough to care, especially when they have likely been fixated on becoming a doctor for years.

So, as long as doctors continue to make a good living, applications will continue to rise. The problem is that many pre meds, have lost conception of what a "good living" is, and assume that they have to "win," that money is another way of keeping score.

Hence the massive entitlement.

People assume that because they get a certain GPA or a certain Test Score, from a certain university, that they are automatically worth more and in a higher social class than everyone else.

The uber rich doctor days will disappear for all except a few top level specialists with private practices in major cities.

However, what else would people with the doctor skill set do? Even if the salary was reduced to say 150K, or even 125K, that would still be way higher than what the VAST majority of med students could make doing anything else. Some people throw out sales, big law, or banking, without having any idea of what those fields involve.

Despite their padding of their CVs with a variety of ECs, most pre meds are not renaissance men who can waltz in and out of any career. For a more realistic idea, take a look at what people who have a PhD in the sciences or who teach in high school earn.

Furthermore, there are still some people who genuinely enjoy medicine, dont have a chip on their shoulders, and strongly believe in it being a special vocation - I know some top doctors here in Spain who make what most of you would consider to be "slave wages," and they are very good at what they do, and (at least the surgeons I know personally), are every bit as dedicated and trained as their US counterparts. And somehow they manage to survive without having a mercedes or vacationing twice a year in exotic places, or having jet skis as one of you douches mentioned. They live well, but not in luxury.
 
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Sorry, but anyone who says less than $100k is either a liar or an idiot. Even with med school being free you have no income for all those years. You'd be better off working up to assistant manager at kinko's in the long run than take $50k. And if you are willing to work nights, get your commercial drivers license (which takes all of 2 weeks) and get a job in an ltl company. 10 years will start you at at least $50k and get you too $100k easy. In this scenario, the indirect costs associated with medicine FAR outweigh the benefits. At $50k for a doc, if you worked the same hours, you'd make more money as a nurse.
 
People bring this up all the time and I'm going to do it again:

Why are premeds concerned with how little they would do the job for? Again, it's trying to prove that they're altruistic, because they think that's how you get into med school.

This is seriously the only profession where people are clamoring for decreases in pay, even before they've put in any work. Wake up.

Seriously, it's ****ing stupid.
😍
 
That $267,000 mark is before malpractice insurance.

Utterly false. I don't even know where you came up with this.

oaklandguy said:
I haven't met a hospital doctor making more than $250k a year before tax and before malpractice insurance.

Been hanging out with a lot of pediatricians?
 
Oh not 11+ years of school...poor us. Are you kidding? School is the good life people. Its just protecting us from this economy. Student is the easiest job you could have with no degree. Have you ever worked a manual labor job in your life, full-time? I would gladly work 60 hr/wk with no debt for 50 k. 100 k puts you among the highest paid in the world. This is obviously dependent on where you live. I come from a town where the average household income is around 29K. Have any of you looked at the census data? Its 10 years old now, but I know for a fact that the jobs in my town haven't gotten better in the last 10 years. Why do some of you want to live so far above your neighbors and patients? I don't want to struggle, but I have no need to have so much more than my friends and neighbors. 50k and I will be able to afford a house, not the nicest house, but a house. My wife would have to work, but there is nothing wrong with two working parents. My kids would have a roof over their heads, food on the table, medical insurance, etc. I don't get you people who say that you need to be earning more money than more than 95% of people in the US to be happy. I understand that going into medicine is a commitment. It robs us of a lot of time, but I'm not sacrificing anything. I'm lucky that I'm not forced to work a manual labor job to afford rent and food. I bet most of you come from upper-middle class huh?
 
This is a 2005 comparison of physician salaries in other countries with the USA.

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Keep in mind that these figures are adjusted for PPP, that in other countries no one has the massive debt like in the USA, and that salaries in the USA will face long term downward pressure as the healthcare system gradually becomes fully nationalized.

So, let's imagine in the future that the government is running healthcare, and that you get to go to med school for free...what is the minimum salary level you would be willing to accept after finishing your residency?

you've been watching a little too much CNN/MSNBC. Come here and you'll see this is not going to be as easy as you think.....
hey, do those numbers include the private practice patients docs see in other countries without declaring them on their taxes? Because I know for a fact that in Italy most docs supplement their crappy hospital salary with a substantial number of private patients (you know, the ones who don't feel like waiting months for an appointment...) who pay cash and then don't declare the income on their taxes.

It's great that you're meeting physicians who do a great job despite the slave salary. However, the simple fact that you're surprised by their caliber shows that your expectations of physicians are quite low. It's a simple law, if you don't pay people according to what they're worth, the majority of them will go into a different field that pays more, and many physicians end up being people that I would not want to touch me with a 10-foot pole. In addition to that, comparing physicians wages across countries has many flaws. In the US wages are higher in general. For example, just last week a plumber came to my house for a clogged line. One hour and fifteen minutes of his time were worth $333. Do you want a physician to be making less than that?

It's also always peculiar that the people advocating for a starving salary are the ones who did not even start med school yet. You have no idea what you're in for (I'm still refining my idea by the way) and the sacrifices that you'll endure. It's easy to give up something you have not earned yet....it sure does not sound like altruism, but blissful ignorance.
 
It has nothing to do with being happy at $50k. It is a question of value. You can do blue collar jobs in my area for $40-50k with zero education. Why would anyone go to medical school then given this information because you could buy your house 15 years earlier, have your kids 15 years earlier, etc. etc. And you obviously don't have children. $50k really isn't a lot of money.
 
Oh not 11+ years of school...poor us. Are you kidding? School is the good life people. Its just protecting us from this economy. Student is the easiest job you could have with no degree. Have you ever worked a manual labor job in your life, full-time? I would gladly work 60 hr/wk with no debt for 50 k. 100 k puts you among the highest paid in the world. This is obviously dependent on where you live. I come from a town where the average household income is around 29K. Have any of you looked at the census data? Its 10 years old now, but I know for a fact that the jobs in my town haven't gotten better in the last 10 years. Why do some of you want to live so far above your neighbors and patients? I don't want to struggle, but I have no need to have so much more than my friends and neighbors. 50k and I will be able to afford a house, not the nicest house, but a house. My wife would have to work, but there is nothing wrong with two working parents. My kids would have a roof over their heads, food on the table, medical insurance, etc. I don't get you people who say that you need to be earning more money than more than 95% of people in the US to be happy. I understand that going into medicine is a commitment. It robs us of a lot of time, but I'm not sacrificing anything. I'm lucky that I'm not forced to work a manual labor job to afford rent and food. I bet most of you come from upper-middle class huh?

that's great. I am from a blue collar family as well and I know that when my parents get older I will want to help them out with home care and such rather than just putting them into a nursing home. Impossible to do on a 50k salary. I'd urge you to reconsider your needs. Plus the economic implications of what you're saying are awful. If you, as a physician, get paid 50k, what about the nurse, the hospital tech, and so on? You want them to live like monks because you want to be one? It seems a little self-centered, doesn't it?
See, this is the stuff that scares me. Obviously you haven't thought about this, or you'd understand you'd destroy the economy. If you can't go such a simple thought process, would I want you to be my doctor? Think about it. Empathy and compassion I can get from my pastor. As a patient, I need your knowledge and intelligence first and foremost.
 
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