Will robots kill the "art" of surgery?

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BlackNDecker

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Will surgery no longer be a skill/gift once these robots take over? If one simply dials in the coordinates and lets the robot go to town, why would it require an MD to drive it? A scrub tech could do that...

Has robotics disuaded anyone here from surgery? Is this the end of throwing wide sutures and getting bloody up to yer elbows?
 
Will surgery no longer be a skill/gift once these robots take over? If one simply dials in the coordinates and lets the robot go to town, why would it require an MD to drive it? A scrub tech could do that...

Has robotics disuaded anyone here from surgery? Is this the end of throwing wide sutures and getting bloody up to yer elbows?

Robotic surgery is sort of a misnomer. They aren't autonomous machines that can do surgery by themselves. The Da Vinci "robot" is a tool that lets you perform minimally-invasive surgery using an interface that allows intuitive hand movements (unlike laparoscopic surgery). It is not something along the lines of, say C3PO. It is still your hand making each throw of the stitch.
 
Will surgery no longer be a skill/gift once these robots take over? If one simply dials in the coordinates and lets the robot go to town, why would it require an MD to drive it? A scrub tech could do that...

Has robotics disuaded anyone here from surgery? Is this the end of throwing wide sutures and getting bloody up to yer elbows?

It will be a long time before anyone can build a robot that can perform a surgery on its own. If you look at current research in autonomous robotics you'll see we can barely build a robot that can drive down the street on its own. Forget about performing any kind of complicated procedures such as surgery.
 
I was using a da Vinci system the other day, just trying it out. It was awesome. I can't tell you how easy it was compared to laparoscopy. Suturing was fairly difficult, because you couldn't feel the tension you were putting on the silk. But moving objects and performing fine maneuvers was very easy. I am not sure if I'll end up in surgery, but my medical school has a da Vinci robot and if I stayed to do residency here in surgery, I would want to be able to leave being proficient in it.
 
Will surgery no longer be a skill/gift once these robots take over? If one simply dials in the coordinates and lets the robot go to town, why would it require an MD to drive it? A scrub tech could do that...

Has robotics disuaded anyone here from surgery? Is this the end of throwing wide sutures and getting bloody up to yer elbows?

hahaha

I actually take the opposite viewpoint! I think it's cooler to have machines making much smaller incisions rather than being elbow-deep in blood :laugh:

I guess I never considered that some people like that feeling 🙂

And to echo the other posts, the surgeon still has to operate the machine. It's not an automated process! The precision is enhanced greatly by using these machines but it's not like they could allow children to play around with the controls and still achieve the same results.
 
trauma and transplant should supply a relatively endless supply of super macho elbow-deep operations
 
Will surgery no longer be a skill/gift once these robots take over? If one simply dials in the coordinates and lets the robot go to town, why would it require an MD to drive it? A scrub tech could do that...

Has robotics disuaded anyone here from surgery? Is this the end of throwing wide sutures and getting bloody up to yer elbows?

But who will take care of damaged robots?!? Other robots? I think not!
 
robots were developed to help the doctors with precision, which they certailnly are doing, as in knee replacements.
Also they work with great precision in many microsurgeries in eye and ear.
They work very well n some of the steps but decision making is best left to us.
 
Robots will only enhance a good surgeons skills. The next generation of robots will most likely have tactile feedback, which is the bottleneck in the procedure and why they have like 100 case learning curves. Technical ability is a small portion of the art of surgery.... Im only an MS3 but I am under the impression that what seperates the great surgeons are the judgement calls they make under pressure and their ability to improvise successfully in the surgical field...and the ability to deliver a good pimping to a poor 3rd year simultaneously.
 
I would imagine that not having a 250 pound man with big fat hands rummage his gigantic fingers through someone's bowels while their guts are open and spilled all over the place would be a good thing, for all parties involved. But that's just me.

I see nothing artistic about the above scenario, BTW. I give credit to surgeries that show finesse, with small incisions, and minimal movements made inside the patients. Then again, many laparoscopic surgeries with their clumsy movements, and 1001 cuts to get something done aren't that smooth either.
 
Robots will only enhance a good surgeons skills. The next generation of robots will most likely have tactile feedback, which is the bottleneck in the procedure and why they have like 100 case learning curves. Technical ability is a small portion of the art of surgery.... Im only an MS3 but I am under the impression that what seperates the great surgeons are the judgement calls they make under pressure and their ability to improvise successfully in the surgical field...and the ability to deliver a good pimping to a poor 3rd year simultaneously.

The da Vinci rep told me that the learning curve compared to laparoscopy is actually improved. For the sake of curiosity, where did you hear that there was a significant learning curve involved?

Also, I agree more with Llenroc about what makes a good surgeon. There shouldn't be much improvising done in surgery--each surgery should be almost cookie-cutter in nature, with the few exceptions of variable anatomy, complications, etc. What makes a good surgeon to me is being able to perform surgery with finesse and speed. You can always tell when a surgeon doesn't know what he/she is doing...they are clumsy, cause undue trauma, and are not confident in their next step. I have seen a surgeon like this, and once he stopped, looked up at the scrub nurse, and said, "What do you think we should do next?"

😱
 
As a future surgeon, I'm much more worried about a PA/NP taking my job than a robot...
 
I'd be much more worried about a robot NP. At least robot PAs will have to work under physician supervision.
 
Also, I agree more with Llenroc about what makes a good surgeon. There shouldn't be much improvising done in surgery--each surgery should be almost cookie-cutter in nature, with the few exceptions of variable anatomy, complications, etc. What makes a good surgeon to me is being able to perform surgery with finesse and speed. You can always tell when a surgeon doesn't know what he/she is doing...they are clumsy, cause undue trauma, and are not confident in their next step. I have seen a surgeon like this, and once he stopped, looked up at the scrub nurse, and said, "What do you think we should do next?"

😱[/QUOTE]

I think that performing certain procedures with out variation is good, it also gets compotent surgeons into a lot of trouble. I've seen several routine lap chole's result in large amounts of blood loss (with surgeons trained at different institutions) because they were trying to "cookie-cutter" the operation, missed a ligation or had poor technique (despite the operation's facility.)

I agree with you that the correct answer to the question (and the ideal one) is that both view points are valid: a good surgeon should confidently move from one action to the next knowing exactly where he is going next, but changing his actions as need be. Decision making is so individualized on a patient by patient basis, that true "cookie cutter" operations can be deadly. Good call on the technique and speed! I would also add something about creativity though. (How many times have you heard your attending say, "well, S$&T! I guess this tumor's stuck closer to the IVC than I thought. We're gonna have to .... did you prep his....?")

waffle
 
The first time I practiced putting in a central line, I found it to be a lot more challenging than anything I've seen in open surgery. Why? Because you can't see what's going on, and you need to have a good knowledge of anatomy, and a good sense of eye/hand coordination to get the needle to the vein with a minimum number of pokes.

When I was doing General Surgery, the first part of the med port placement (where they find the cephalic or subclavian vein with the needle) was always the thing that most frustrated the surgeons. During the big bowel surgeries, there was a lot of stuff to do, but none of it particularly difficult to execute.

Any kind of open surgery is basically easy. You can see the structures and move them around. Procedures that are less invasive, or in which you can't see things from all angles (or at all) are much more difficult to execute.

Open bowel surgeries are no great pinnacle of modern science or surgical technique, IMO.
 
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