should DO schools deny student AMA chapters?

this is becoming an interesting issue, which centers around the following question:

**should osteopathic medical school administrators/leadership be able to deny the formation of an AMA / state medical association chapter on their campus?

--some osteopathic medical schools have very active AMA state medical association chapters on their campuses as officially recognized organizations, and their involvement is activley supported by their administration

--some have chapters that have been allowed to form, but seem to be only tolerated by their administration

--and some schools have been approcached with the idea of forming a chapter, students from the school have become interested, but students were prevented from forming a chapter / official organization on campus by their administration.

**some of you may ask - should DOs be involved / interested in the AMA to begin with? i suggest you review and post any comments on this topic on the previous thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=149528

**there are a lot of important sub-questions to consider here, there are some specific examples that i can discuss, and there is other information which is helpful in understanding the issue - but i'll wait for some initial reaction to the question before i bring up some of these things in a future post.

thoughts?

docbill said:

I Agree.

I guess some DOs are really bitter still about the whole MD vs. Wish doctor thing. Let old times die. Time to strat a new history.

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i would guess that the general feeling among younger generation of DOs - after becoming aware of some of the issues <again - see previous post i referenced> is one of agreement that it's in our osteopathic interests - and the common interests of the medical profession - for DOs to be involved in the AMA.

but - the question i am posing here is slightly different - that is:

should some members of the osteopathic profession (and i'm specifically focusing on DO school administration / leadership) supress other members of the osteopathic profession (i.e. students) in becoming active in the AMA by forming a student chapter at their school - or in joining as an individual member?

so - that is the question before you ...

i'll follow up with more on this issue in future posts...

as you think about the question i just listed - let's start to get some background for the AMA / state medical association status at each DO school.

--if your school does have leadership in AMA and the AMA-MSS, send them an email, give them the link to this thread, and invite them to reply.

--if you school does not have an AMA chapter - then you might email your student body president and ask him / her if she knows of any efforts.

in your post, try to answer the following questions (i have filled this out for TCOM to start things off):

1>state?: TX

2>school?: UNTHSC/TCOM

3>official AMA student chapter?: yes

4>official state medical assn. student chapter?: yes (texas medical assn.)

5>school funding for chapter?: yes - same as any other campus organization

6>how would you characterize the school administration / leadership's viewpoint on having a student chapter of AMA on campus?
--fully supports, publically, and is at equal status as a student organization with other organizations?
--allows/tolerates, but does not activley or publically support?
--will not allow formation of a chapter?

--at TCOM, almost all of our administration has been fully, and publically supportive of student involvement in AMA/TMA.

7>if your school does not have a chapter - have there been efforts in the past to form one? what are the barriers? have people from other school (DO or MD) AMA chapters helped?

8> other comments...

rustedcj7 said:

The AMA is interested in preserving the salaries of doctors not the provision of good health care for all Americans.

Most docs know this, which is one of the reasons that AMA has such a low membership among practicing physicians.

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this is an interesting issue - which i have personally judged to not be true based on my personal experience and knowledge of the organization. also - i have explained in previous posts that while you might not agree with everything an organizaton stands for - membership and involvement in the organization brings opportunity to change the organization - the actions of the AMA, AOA or any other like organization are based on policy and elected leaders from a representative body <will be happy to discuss this further in a different thread>.

however - this is not directly related to the question posed. AMA membership and involvement is definitely a matter of choice - but should it be up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to join or become involved - rather than have the choice made for you by another person or group of people (this is what is occuring - at least with ability to get involved - at some DO schools that prevent any formal involvement of their students in the AMA)

i definitely appreciate the feedback/comments so far - but i don't think anyone has yet weighed in on the question at hand.

ok - so i know this is not the most exciting topic to discuss, and i kinda feel like i'm just having a conversation with myself mostly (which is boring) - but let me illustrate this issue with a couple of specific examples to promote discussion:

--it is well understood that the administration at NSU-COM in FL has repressed the formation of an AMA chapter on campus, despite students who have wanted to get more involved by forming a chapter and strong encouragement and support from florida MD students and physicians. any student wanting to promote this faces potentially negative consequences from their school leadership - thus it's difficult to change. should this be allowed to happen?

--my personal view is that students should be allowed to decide whether or not to form an organization - based on the same standards / policies that exist for the formation of other organizations / clubs on campus (e.g. - SOMA, ACOFP, and internal medicine club, etc).

--if a dean or other administrator does not like the AMA - then they can make a personal decision not to join or personally support the organization - but i think it's wrong that they are in effect - imposing their view on students that may not agree - and therefore limiting the opportunity for students.

--what opportunity? for example - an AMA chapter entitles each campus of a school to a vote on the AMA-MSS assmebly. this saturday, the AMA-MSS assembly will meet to discuss resolutions which could impact all of us - and NSU-COM - in addition to many other DO schools - will be VOICELESS in that which impacts them - and the students would would have benefited individually from the leadership and networking opportunity that comes with representation - will be denied that opportunity. this is just one of many opportunities / benefits that comes with the formation of an official chapter.

thoughts?

<note - nothing in what i have said in any way is a negative comment on NSU-COM as an institution or NSU-COM students. NSU-COM has an awesome campus, and all NSU-COM students that i have met are very cool>

oh - i forgot to reference that AMA-MSS assembly agenda for this saturday (this gives you an idea of the missed opportunity). remember that NSU-COM and all other DO schools would get a voting rep if they form a chapter. here's the link:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11677.html

also - by having a chapter, NSU-COM students (and other DO students) would have an opportunity to run for various positions. a NSU-COM student could be a voting delegate in the AMA-HOD, a voting member of an AMA council, or serve as the voting member of the AMA board of trustees. there are currently quite a few DO students in some schools serving in top roles in the AMA and AMA-MSS.

in addition to national opportunities - there are similar opportunities for involvement at the state level.

some might say that the prevention of formation of AMA chapters at some DO schools not only hurts the opportunity of its students - but hurts both the osteopathic and the common medical profession.

i welcome any thoughts

iliacus said:

It seems to me that there are more important issues to tackle than joining the AMA. I don't need the AMA's stamp of approval to feel like a worthwhile physician. This is the same organization that labled our profession a "cult" and should be dissolved. The AMA isn't your friend. To them we're like the that annoying relative that gets invited to thanksgiving..you sort of tolerate them. A lot of these old school DO's are still licking their wounds from the days when the AMA and allopaths denied them hospital privileges and they had to sue to get them. The AMA won't recognize the AOA as an equal body. Don't think the AMA is your buddy. Some of these old school DO's that fought like hell and stood up for themselves are the reason you have all the benefits of an osteopathic physician today. Don't get too down on them. My .02 cents

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i have addressed most of these concerns in previous posts (see the link i provided from the first post on this thread) but let me re-emphasize some key points:

#1 - it is no secret that the AMA - at one time - opposed DOs gaining practice rights, and the DOs who fought and won these battles against the AMA in the past are to be commended. i definitely respect and appreciate all of these efforts. it's important not to forget this history.

#2 - it is equally important to recognize the fact that current AMA policy and actions are either neutral or supportive toward the osteopathic profession. i can also tell you that from personal experience as someone who personally knows high level leadership within the AMA, that i have always been treated with the utmost respect and encouraged to stay involved and help shape this organization.

#3 - the AOA will always have a role to play because there will always be osteopathic-specific issues that even if the AMA were to not oppose, or even support - they would not have enough resources to devote to since it only impacts a small number of their membership.

#4 - i agree with you that no DO or DO student needs the AMA's stamp of approval to feel like a worthwhile physician. that's not why i'm involved in the AMA. i'm involved to be able to influence the context in which we will practice medicine. while the AOA is a great organization - the AMA does have about 20-30x the lobby budget in washington, and spends millions every year in campaign contributions to try and elect pro-medicine members of congress. the AMA will be influential regardless of whether or not DOs join or get involved in the leadership of the AMA. why would i want to give up the chance to help shape the policy and priorties of the most powerful physician group?

#5 - your response has basically told me why you have choosen not to be part of the AMA - and my response in the previous 4 points has told you why i have chosen to be part of the AMA. everyone is entitled to come to their own personal decision about this. but, this is a seperate issue from the question i initially posed for this thread...

my questions is: should *someone else* be able to decide *for you* what organization you should join and not join? this *is* what is occuring in some DO schools such as NSU-COM at this point in time, by administration or leadership denying students the opportunity to become more involved by forming a chapter.

iliacus said:

Right on the money. I agree with you. It should be our choice. I support this.

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great - happy to hear that we're on the same page. also - just to add to this discussion, here's a clip of AOA policy...

PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION BY DOs

RESOLVED, that in order to effect the policy of maintaining the essential role of the osteopathic profession as an independent scientific school of medicine and to prevent the extinction of the osteopathic profession by direct attack or absorption, osteopathic physicians should support and sustain their profession by maintaining active membership in the American Osteopathic Association and other affiliated associations; and, be it further

RESOLVED, that it is not the policy of the AOA to directly or indirectly restrict or restrain any individual member's freedom of choice with respect to professional associations.

1979; reaffirmed 1984; revised 1989; reaffirmed 1995; revised 2000

see p.121 of: http://www.do-online.org/pdf/aoa_position.pdf

--now, i agree with both of these resolved statements:

1> you can see from my other posts that - while i do think some things in the aoa need to change - i'm very supportive of all DO students and physicians maintaining active membership in the aoa.

2> now, i would say that the ama, as a professional association, is included in this statement. so - although the leadership of some DO schools are not bound by aoa policy - they certainly appear to be breaking it by *directly* 'restrain'ing a student's 'freedom of choice' of becoming a member of becoming active in the ama.

thoughts?

<more later>

TCOM-2006 said:

great - happy to hear that we're on the same page. also - just to add to this discussion, here's a clip of AOA policy...

PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION BY DOs

RESOLVED, that in order to effect the policy of maintaining the essential role of the osteopathic profession as an independent scientific school of medicine and to prevent the extinction of the osteopathic profession by direct attack or absorption, osteopathic physicians should support and sustain their profession by maintaining active membership in the American Osteopathic Association and other affiliated associations; and, be it further

RESOLVED, that it is not the policy of the AOA to directly or indirectly restrict or restrain any individual member's freedom of choice with respect to professional associations.

1979; reaffirmed 1984; revised 1989; reaffirmed 1995; revised 2000

see p.121 of: http://www.do-online.org/pdf/aoa_position.pdf

--now, i agree with both of these resolved statements:

1> you can see from my other posts that - while i do think some things in the aoa need to change - i'm very supportive of all DO students and physicians maintaining active membership in the aoa.

2> now, i would say that the ama, as a professional association, is included in this statement. so - although the leadership of some DO schools are not bound by aoa policy - they certainly appear to be breaking it by *directly* 'restrain'ing a student's 'freedom of choice' of becoming a member of becoming active in the ama.

thoughts?

<more later>

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so, the question is...

what can or should we do about this issue?

can we interpret the above policy to say that what is occuring is 'against aoa policy'? i do recognize that the policy applies to the aoa - and not invividual medical school administrations (so, probably not - and aoa policy only binds the organization, not its individual members).

so, the next question is - should we try to pass policy (either through AOA or AACOM board of deans) that would be more specific to this situation? i think this is probably the next step. but in order to do this - we need to get a better idea of how widespread a problem this might be - and if there are any other organizations that have not been allowed to form (i.e. - i have heard that there has been some resistance with AMSA chapters at some schools).

so - i would request that if you attend a DO school, please reply to the above set of questions.

other thoughts?

the topic that started in this thread was re-brought up on another thread recently, so i wanted to reply so folks interested in the topic could see what has been said so far on this thread, and to respond to the question raised by the PCOM student...

there is a spectrum ranging from DO schools with active AMA chapters that are supported by their administrations (eg- PCOM, TCOM), to schools that allow the organizations (eg- CCOM), to schools where there is real administrative resistance to the formation of an AMA chapter (eg- NSU-COM LECOM). NSU-COM is the example i gave in the previous post. it would be most helpful for us to get a truer sense of this situation if someone (or more than one person) from each school would reply back with answers to the 'survey' posted previously.

why is it i seem to kill discussion on important topics like this (well... at least i think they are important...)

anyway, here's a resolution being considered *right now* at the AOA meeting in chicago - it basically makes some minor changes to policy, but i think there should also a 3rd resolved clause that would - in a general way ddress the issue of schools not allowing their students to create AMA chapters...

#234 at: http://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod05res221-240.pdf


SUBJECT: PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION BY DOs

SUBMITTED BY: Committee on Health Related Policies

REFERRED TO: Committee on Professional Affairs

RESOLVED, that the following policy adopted by the AOA House of Delegates in 2000 on "Professional Association be DOs" be amended:
(Old material crossed out, new material in capitals)

WHEREAS, it is the policy of the American Osteopathic Association to encourage loyalty and unity within the osteopathic profession; and

WHEREAS, that such policy is best served by membership in the AOA, its divisional societies, and organizations outside of the osteopathic profession whenever such membership is necessary to the member's professional development; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, that in order to effect the policy of maintaining MAINTAIN the essential role of the osteopathic profession as an independent scientific school of medicine and to prevent the extinction of the osteopathic profession by direct attack or absorption, osteopathic physicians should support and sustain their profession by maintaining active membership in the American Osteopathic Association and other affiliated associations; and, be it further

RESOLVED, that it is not the policy of the AOA to directly or indirectly restrict or restrain any individual member's freedom of choice with respect to professional associations.

Docgeorge said:

I think the only way that you can get individual schools from preventing it is by passing a reolution through COGSP and move it to AACOMAS, and if it passes there I think they have to abide by it.

Additionally if the people who want a AMA-MSS section at their school can convince the admin the benifit of having an AMA-MSS section on campus. ie getting repersentative for the state meetings and will allow them to pursee issiues that will beinift osteopathic medicine as a whole.

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agreed, i do think that AAAOM (actually - the board of deans via COSGP) is the appropriate avenue to take this through in order to effect change (the AOA could only "suggest" or "encourage" since it does not - and should not - have direct control over individual school policies). neither does AACOM, but at least it would get the admin. leadership talking about the issue.

the problem is that some school leadership won't listen to reason, and continue to allow their personal negative feelings / past experiences to be the deciding factor (rather than student opinion and existing student organization policy). some of them never will, and it's understandable how some students - who would be supportive of forming an AMA chapter - are not willing to make an enemy of their dean / VP / president / etc in order to try and do so.