If you could do it over would you

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Elysium said:
For what it's worth, I'm not really sure the prestige is what some people think it is. A lot of people just see doctors as their employees who do their bidding. They see something on TV (Nexium, viagra, celias, whatever) and they want you to give it to them. They are consumers of medicine and not patients, in many cases. They shop around until they find a doctor that will refill their hydrocodone (and they will find one, eventually), they demand to get what they want or threaten lawsuits, and basically see health care as a means to an end. Gone are the days of the friendly, wise GP that everyone in town looked up to. And why should people respect docs? A lot of docs are friggin' dinguses that aren't especially intelligent, just tenacious. I know several medical students and doctors that are not intellectually curious, not particuarly well spoken or well read, and just generally bitter medical drones. My SO is a doctor (intern) and a lot of days I wish he wasn't (and I'm in PA school). He has no prestige, obviously. He's going to get his ass worked over intern year and then he's going to spend the next 6 years in training, spending countless hours away from me and our dog so that he can treat a bunch of yokels who don't really give much of a sht either way. We cured your spesis - go ahead and use that IV line we started to shoot heroin! It's all good.

Neither one of us particularly love medicine, but it is a steady job, with good pay. We like it enough to tolerate it, but if I wasn't in so much debt I would change professions in a second. So would he. The whole thing just seems like a sham and totally unworth all the sacrifices you have to make to gratify your ego.
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Hey Elysium! Thanks for your very insightful post. It does bring that chilling reality to life, and confirms my fears. But if not medicine, what profession would you have chosen? Also, what area you specialize in seems to make a lot difference in overall job satisfaction. The thought of leaving, pretty steady 6 figure income(also in health field) just become MD/MD, and NOT get what I want in the end is daunting :scared:

Best of Luck to you and your SO.
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A lot of reasons I see for people not willing to repeat medical school are:

1. Debt
2. Long work hours leading to no life

Debt, there's nothing to say about that. Long work hours get better after residency is over right?
 
No. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy and proud of going through med school and starting my residency in general surgery, but I will never start over just because I'm freaking glad I don't have to go to all that crap again.

I did 2 years of pharmacy school before applying in med. I remember the several pharmacists advising me NOT to go to med school (i.e. 'if you want a life, don't be a doc'...'what? you like seeing/touching ****ed up patients?'...'there's more to life than working'). I was still 100% sure I wanted to be a doctor.

So I went through med school. New city, new life, bye bye old friends. I studied useless crap, I said 'Sorry I can't' PLENTY of times to my friends, I lost many of them. I realized I was dumb and not that genius when I started my rotations. I hated everytime my parents called me 'Hey Doc', because I knew I was too dumb to be a doctor.

My friends were going out, partying, meeting women, lots of stories....I lost track of them, I was in a different planet called 'scutwork'. Good thing I had a girlfriend in med school (yeah, I'm original), so I wasn't so alone in that planet. Everytime I tried to express my feeling to non-medicine folks, I got the usual reply 'Come on, it's not that bad, you're a doc..that's what YOU wanted, right?'

Then there's the residency matching thing. Good god, never again. Run after your attendings to get some Letters of reference...try to contact X number of residency programs to 'show your interest' (synonym: brown nosing). Go through all those damn interviews and lie, lie and more lying. I went to church and asked Father Peter to forgive me for all the lying.

You finally get your answer (Congrats you're matched!) and what a feeling of relief. Do I want to redo all that? Never. Am I happy I'm going to be a surgeon? Hell yes. Is there another job that would have made me happy? probably, but I don't know what is it...and it wasn't pharmacy for me :)
 
Surgeon24 said:
No. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy and proud of going through med school and starting my residency in general surgery, but I will never start over just because I'm freaking glad I don't have to go to all that crap again.

I did 2 years of pharmacy school before applying in med. I remember the several pharmacists advising me NOT to go to med school (i.e. 'if you want a life, don't be a doc'...'what? you like seeing/touching ****ed up patients?'...'there's more to life than working'). I was still 100% sure I wanted to be a doctor.

So I went through med school. New city, new life, bye bye old friends. I studied useless crap, I said 'Sorry I can't' PLENTY of times to my friends, I lost many of them. I realized I was dumb and not that genius when I started my rotations. I hated everytime my parents called me 'Hey Doc', because I knew I was too dumb to be a doctor.

My friends were going out, partying, meeting women, lots of stories....I lost track of them, I was in a different planet called 'scutwork'. Good thing I had a girlfriend in med school (yeah, I'm original), so I wasn't so alone in that planet. Everytime I tried to express my feeling to non-medicine folks, I got the usual reply 'Come on, it's not that bad, you're a doc..that's what YOU wanted, right?'

Then there's the residency matching thing. Good god, never again. Run after your attendings to get some Letters of reference...try to contact X number of residency programs to 'show your interest' (synonym: brown nosing). Go through all those damn interviews and lie, lie and more lying. I went to church and asked Father Peter to forgive me for all the lying.

You finally get your answer (Congrats you're matched!) and what a feeling of relief. Do I want to redo all that? Never. Am I happy I'm going to be a surgeon? Hell yes. Is there another job that would have made me happy? probably, but I don't know what is it...and it wasn't pharmacy for me :)
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Great reply surgeon, but I dont quiet understand your stance on the issue. Obviously no one would ever want to redo med school (bc its tough). But i think the question is more of would you go into the medical field again (not redoing med school persay) knowing what you know now about the medical field?

WIll you enjoy your job and your life as a doctor after you re done with med school? Is the medical field as great/bad as you thought it was gonna be back when you were about to start med school?
 
Surgeon24 said:
My friends were going out, partying, meeting women, lots of stories....I lost track of them, I was in a different planet called 'scutwork'. Good thing I had a girlfriend in med school (yeah, I'm original), so I wasn't so alone in that planet. Everytime I tried to express my feeling to non-medicine folks, I got the usual reply 'Come on, it's not that bad, you're a doc..that's what YOU wanted, right?'
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I don't totally disagree with this, but on the other hand, I find it funny that med students always seem to be friends with other young people who manage to make huge salaries and buy houses really young while partying a lot. Frankly, my friends work hard. In fact, med school (and other types of grad school) arguably gives more time for partying than a full-time job. You can't skip meetings if you're too tired. Some med students basically sleep in for two years.

Residency is obviously different, but you did get the med school years with possibly greater flexibility and then if you want you can have a job that will allow you more flexibility than most.
 
NRAI2001,

Yeah you're right. I just wanted to give a little review of my years in med school ;)
Now to answer the real question, I would say yes. Of course, when I started med school I was naive and had great expectations. Now that I know the truth, it's not as good as it seemed, but it's good enough for me. There's nothing else that I see me doing, than to become a surgeon. Everytime someone dropped out of med school, they had a 'backup' plan...something else that would make them happy with a better lifestyle.


beetlerum,

My friends were partying and are still partying ;) I never said they made huge salaries and are buying houses, just enough $. Making big bucks isn't my goal either. If it was, I would have stayed in pharmacy school, opened a pharmacy and live large. And you're right, in practically every career where you want to stand out and get huge $, you will have to work very very hard for a certain period of time.

As for flexibility, I don't know if it's sad or not, but right now I don't care much about lifestyle. As if I got used to it, and that's that. Sure it's nice to go out and drink once and awhile, but it gets old fast. I'm more of a career type of guy, and that's why choosing general surgery for a residency was easy for me.
 
Surgeon24 said:
NRAI2001,

Yeah you're right. I just wanted to give a little review of my years in med school ;)
Now to answer the real question, I would say yes. Of course, when I started med school I was naive and had great expectations. Now that I know the truth, it's not as good as it seemed, but it's good enough for me. There's nothing else that I see me doing, than to become a surgeon. Everytime someone dropped out of med school, they had a 'backup' plan...something else that would make them happy with a better lifestyle.


beetlerum,

My friends were partying and are still partying ;) I never said they made huge salaries and are buying houses, just enough $. Making big bucks isn't my goal either. If it was, I would have stayed in pharmacy school, opened a pharmacy and live large. And you're right, in practically every career where you want to stand out and get huge $, you will have to work very very hard for a certain period of time.

As for flexibility, I don't know if it's sad or not, but right now I don't care much about lifestyle. As if I got used to it, and that's that. Sure it's nice to go out and drink once and awhile, but it gets old fast. I'm more of a career type of guy, and that's why choosing general surgery for a residency was easy for me.
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Of course many things seems like they would be fun for short terms (pilot, police officer, banker......etc). I cant imagine myself doing anything other than medicine for longterm. Of course I wont fully know till 3rd year of med school, but my parents are docs and many of my aunts, uncles, and good friends are docs or in med school. Definitely not as glamarous and exciting as many people are lead to believe.

I have a lot of friends that party a lot and have flexible schedules (loan officers, real estate, brokers, own small restaurants....etc) and I ve partied with them. It gets old quick and they generally seem kinda bored even though they act as they are having a great time getting drunk 3 days a week. Seems like all that they really try to do is pick up girls when they go out, but once you have a gf there is not really any point to that anymore. But it is nice to go party everyonce in a while. :thumbup:
 
turtle said:
If you want to be a selfless person ... join the clergy or be a missionary.

If you want to be a rich person ... go into business or the computer industry.

I am NOT a selfless person. I am probably the most selfish bastard I know. But I didn't chose medicine to "help" others. I choose it because it seemed like it would be a great ride. The downs suck ... the ups rock :D . I would not change my path...
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helps to know i'm not the only one out there.

and yes partying and drinking gets old reaal fast. so you had fun. were you sober through even half of it? pointless. A closet full of Christian Louboutins + Prada purses would be nice, but again...pointless.

Also, a question. What if you've already had all your ideals dashed (yes i -am- a sorry individual), waking up to a big breakfast of cynicism every morning (with extra helpings of spite) already, and all the selfishness and flak in the world couldn't possibly put you off because you'd already expected all that anyway?

I'd gotten into med school because:

- as above, it seemed like a journey. Not fun, but challenging.
- yes, I don't feel the obsessive need to be 'creative' and 'innovative'. Maybe i just have a smaller brain but i find med pretty intellectually stimulating already.
- job security
- if i save someone's life, plus. if i make someone feel better, swell. if not, i'm giving it my best and hoping i don't screw up.

In short, i'm a person with low expectations (but that doesn't mean I don't give it my all. i'm type-A but a cautious type A.) and pretty happy with routine (there is always room for perfection in routine).
 
Dire Straits said:
translation: i can't hack it in real medicine, so i'm going to be a quitter.
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I don't get it...if you hate it, can't you use your MD and clinical training to enter into other careers that would value your skills and experience? Like selling stuff for medical technology companies, clinical directors for pharmaceuticals, academia...start your own tv show like Dr. Shapiro on CTV...I dunno...I'm not in med school yet, but I've always seen the MD degree as a key to opportunities...not necessarily related to treating patients...for example, work for a bit in family practice, play it smart, then hook up with other docs and open up several clinics...you don't even have to see patients after that. am i fantasizing or is this actually possible?
 
It would be interesting to see what would people who wouldn't do it all over again do otherwise? What other career would you go into? What kind of lifestyle would you have instead?
thanks
 
No, I would not do again. It's hard to explain in an open forum why I feel this way, even though I'm about to start med school this Fall as a non-trad. When life takes us to cross-roads, we open new chapters that close off other paths. For me personally, it's too late to aspire to be other things (careers that require roots, discovery, and nurturing at a very, very young age) ... and to some extent, that is how I arrived at medicine today. Mind you, I do genuinely love medicine and am excited to embark the journey. :)

Hehe, I wonder if anyone understands what I'm talking about. :)
 
garbage20 said:
No, I would not do again. It's hard to explain in an open forum why I feel this way, even though I'm about to start med school this Fall as a non-trad. When life takes us to cross-roads, we open new chapters that close off other paths. For me personally, it's too late to aspire to be other things (careers that require roots, discovery, and nurturing at a very, very young age) ... and to some extent, that is how I arrived at medicine today. Mind you, I do genuinely love medicine and am excited to embark the journey. :)

Hehe, I wonder if anyone understands what I'm talking about. :)
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So if you haven't actually started medical school yet and wouldn't do it again, it seems like now is your chance to punch out...or am I missing something?
 
I hope that I never become a PhD researcher, big shot lawyer, or investment banker, or these other things being mentioned in posts. These careers have never appealed to me.

I spent a lot of time in hs and college considering teaching high school history.

Somehow, I made it to medical school, and all that's left of that original plan is that I'm strongly considering pediatrics, and when I have time to turn on the tv, sometimes I watch the history channel.

I know I am not very far into my medical training. I am about to start m2, so I've gotten just far enough to realize I don't yet know much of anything about medicine or the real day to day life I'll have as a doctor, nor do I know enough to fairly decide if I would do it again.

But I do know that most days I am still very excited to learn more, to get to the clinical years and beyond and see what medicine is really all about, the good and the bad. I'm excited to get out of a lecture hall and work with patients, learn about different specialties and decide on one I enjoy. As far as the benefits of the career, I really do still believe that as much as we complain, sometimes justifiably and sometimes not so much, medicine offers a lot of strengths you simply can't find in other fields. Overall, most days so far I feel like I am in the right place.

Some days, I think maybe I should have become a teacher.
 
xylem29 said:
I don't get it...if you hate it, can't you use your MD and clinical training to enter into other careers that would value your skills and experience? Like selling stuff for medical technology companies, clinical directors for pharmaceuticals, academia...start your own tv show like Dr. Shapiro on CTV...I dunno...I'm not in med school yet, but I've always seen the MD degree as a key to opportunities...not necessarily related to treating patients...for example, work for a bit in family practice, play it smart, then hook up with other docs and open up several clinics...you don't even have to see patients after that. am i fantasizing or is this actually possible?
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According to one of my grad school profs: Because that would require creative thought and initiative, which seem to be beaten out of a lot of bright minds during medical training. Of course these options are out there. But the current system programs drones to follow routines. So creativity is squelched while robotic behavior is encouraged.

Personally, I see many, many opening doors down the road. I just have to remember to keep it in perspective, and not lose my creative streak in the process.

Something that I've wondered after perusing this thread:
Are the people who seem miserable in medicine...some of these men and women who are trying to dissuade us from entering medical school...of that personality type that predisposes them to be unhappy? Everyone knows at least one person like that...who is unhappy no matter what they are doing, and no matter how well things are going for them. I have found a lot of people like this in the medical profesion (especially in academia!), and also in many pre-meds. I wonder how much of this Yes/No debate can be explained simply by personality type, outlook, attitude, etc. For example, if I decide that I'm going to be happy, have a rewarding career, work hard at having a good marriage, and not complain, will it become a self-fulfilling prophecy? Conversely, if I decide one day that I am miserable, will I make myself start hating my profession, complaining to my friends and peers, having problems with my spouse/family, etc?

I am a happy, fortunate, blessed person. I want to continue to be happy. I want to have a rewarding career, a healthy relationship with my family and my friends, and financial security. I understand paying my dues for a few years until I am fully trained, but even that seems manageable. I am not a 21-year old kid, fresh out of undergrad. I have lived in the "real world" and know how to work hard and be happy at the same time. I wonder, if I maintain this attitude during medical school and beyond...will I come back as one of those people who say "Yes, I would do it all over again"?

Or will the process itself turn me into one of those miserable, cynical types?
 
garbage20 said:
No, I would not do again. It's hard to explain in an open forum why I feel this way, even though I'm about to start med school this Fall as a non-trad. When life takes us to cross-roads, we open new chapters that close off other paths. For me personally, it's too late to aspire to be other things (careers that require roots, discovery, and nurturing at a very, very young age) ... and to some extent, that is how I arrived at medicine today. Mind you, I do genuinely love medicine and am excited to embark the journey. :)

Hehe, I wonder if anyone understands what I'm talking about. :)
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Yes I found this post confusing too.
 
garbage20 said:
No, I would not do again. It's hard to explain in an open forum why I feel this way, even though I'm about to start med school this Fall as a non-trad. When life takes us to cross-roads, we open new chapters that close off other paths. For me personally, it's too late to aspire to be other things (careers that require roots, discovery, and nurturing at a very, very young age) ... and to some extent, that is how I arrived at medicine today. Mind you, I do genuinely love medicine and am excited to embark the journey. :)

Hehe, I wonder if anyone understands what I'm talking about. :)
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Sorry, but.... me 3 :confused: .Did you mean you wouldn't do your other career again? The one you have now, prior to starting a med school? It sounds like medicine is the "next best thing" for you, since other careers are more creative (acting, writing, musician, sports on the professional level?), and you needed to start in those young. If I understood your post correctcly, it would be wise, IMHO, to re-evaluate your "why?" medicine. It may not be worth such trouble, and sacrifice.
Anyway, best of luck to you.
 
Hey, when I started posting on this thread I hadn't found out if I matched. Now that I have matched into something I want to do I want to change my answer to "Yes, I'm very happy that I went to medical school and I would do it again."

But if I had been stuck in Family Medicine I would be the biggest mass of negativity you ever saw. I'd make Sacrament look like Little Mary Sunshine.

It all depends on how much you like what you're doing.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medcine Resident
I Never Have to See You Again After Tonight
 
Panda Bear said:
But if I had been stuck in Family Medicine I would be the biggest mass of negativity you ever saw. I'd make Sacrament look like Little Mary Sunshine.
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You were, and you did, my friend. ;)

It all depends on how much you like what you're doing.
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Absolutely. Unlike you, I genuinely enjoy family medicine. To each his/her own. If somebody told me I had to work in the ED for the rest of my life, I'd commit seppuku with the first #11 blade I could get my hands on. :p
 
KentW said:
You were, and you did, my friend. ;)



Absolutely. Unlike you, I genuinely enjoy family medicine. To each his/her own. If somebody told me I had to work in the ED for the rest of my life, I'd commit seppuku with the first #11 blade I could get my hands on. :p
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#11 blade won't do much damage. Go for the amputation or Humby knife! That'll put you outta your FM misery! ;)
 
A year ago I would have said I had no regrets. Now I'm not so sure.

I went back to medical school at 38, and then started a general surgery residency. I finished PGY 1, 2 and then took a year for research. Now I've just started back as PGY3. For the first time every, I have doubts that I will like working as a surgeon.

Part of the problem is that I started back on a crazy rotation, one where you never know what time you will leave for the day. Call is minimal, and I've had to work only every other weekend (just to round). But frequently having to stay till 8 or 9 pm, and then arrive by 5:30 or 6 am is killing me. I have no life, and I'm exausted all the time. I can't make any plans becuase I can never predict when I can leave the hospital. I rarely have time to read.

About half of our rotations are like this. I don't know if I can keep up this pace. I like to operate, but there are a lot of operations I don't like to do. And I don't like being in the OR for 8-12 hours when by feet, knees, hips and back hurt, I haven't eaten, and I can't drink much water cuz then I'd have to scrub out to pee. Despite being in a program where the 80 hours rule is enforced, I'm still exhausted and resentful. Botton line...I want my life back!

There are some specialties in surgery that have better lifestyles than others, I know. But right now I just wish I could do something different. Problem is, I'm in to far to stop. My student loan debt means I need the doctors income to pay it off. I'm obligated to complete this year, so even if I wanted to change to another specialty I'd have to spend more time in residency than I would if I just finish surgery.

My point is that I think everyone has second thoughts at various times throughout this long, grueling process. I can't think of any other profession where the training is a long and tiring as it is for medicine, and where the finanical rewards are so long in coming. Nor can I think of any other profession where so many outside the profession think they can tell the professionals what to do. By the time I graduate, pay for perfomance will be the norm. (google it...and ask yourself if any other profession would survive under that model)

The further I get into this process, the more appealing locum tenums work looks. You can work a job for a couple months, then take a couple months off...then repeat the cycle.
 
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i say do it. although, i hated some of it. some mornings on surgery (like 4am), i'd be screaming inside my head to just quit! but i couldn't b/c i have too much debt, and you just cant quit without a degree to show for it.
if you've ever had a real job where people expected you to work hard and didn't give you much respect, you'll make it as a student.
it ramps up a notch in residency. i just started, so the jury is still out.
it's a noble profession. people respect you (patients/family/friends; most of the time anyway). you can move around and still get a job. pay is decent.
and that crap about not getting to party? bs... we partyed the entire time. at the end of block exams, especially. you have to unwind or you'll go crazy. you'll have plenty of "me" time, but it will come in spurts.
 
billydoc said:
Sorry, but.... me 3 :confused: .Did you mean you wouldn't do your other career again? The one you have now, prior to starting a med school? It sounds like medicine is the "next best thing" for you, since other careers are more creative (acting, writing, musician, sports on the professional level?), and you needed to start in those young. If I understood your post correctcly, it would be wise, IMHO, to re-evaluate your "why?" medicine. It may not be worth such trouble, and sacrifice.
Anyway, best of luck to you.
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It absolutely is about how far back I can rewind the clock. :)

If you ask me 8 years from now, in 2014, whether I would do it over again at this point in time as a non-trad embarking on this journey in 2006, I would say absolutely. However, if you come to me as a genie in a bottle, enabling me with a magic wish to rewind the clock back to when I was 18-- I would say no. Here's the reason:

Medicine takes at least 8 years. In theory, you have a choice of which 8 years of your life you want to give up. Personally, it's easier for me to give up my 30s than my 20s. When I reflect back on my 20s, I feel that I've had pretty fulfilling years. I grew a lot as a person, and experienced enough of vivid and adventurous life (I don't miss the late-night parties) to give me the skills, know-how, and confidence to tackle my 30s "the age of responsibility".

I will spend my 30s in med school and finish residency in my late 30s. So the sacrifices, for me personally, are starting my own family and $$$. I was already planning on having children fairly late (I'm still in a big kid in many ways, and not ready to be tied to a stroller and minivan) ... and though money in the bank is nice and I would love to own a house, deck out on Pottery Barn and expensive vacations, etc. Well -- I can wait on those.

I really feel for young docs who spend their 20s doing medicine -- b/c the 20s are absolutely wonderful years and much better than college. 30s are just more bills and headaches, and who really wants that? :)
 
Also to answer your question -- suppose I am concurrently offered a spot in another type of school. I dunno... film school, art school, engineering school, whatever. I would still choose medicine because, as I stand today with my given skillset and background, it's easier for me to grasp concepts in medicine than concepts in those other fields. However, if I were 18 again, it would be the reverse. I could not possibly have the patience or curiosity about medicine as an 18-year old, whereas I would've been nuts about other fields. Get it? :)
 
jocg27 said:
I hope that I never become a PhD researcher, big shot lawyer, or investment banker, or these other things being mentioned in posts. These careers have never appealed to me.

I spent a lot of time in hs and college considering teaching high school history.

Somehow, I made it to medical school, and all that's left of that original plan is that I'm strongly considering pediatrics, and when I have time to turn on the tv, sometimes I watch the history channel.

I know I am not very far into my medical training. I am about to start m2, so I've gotten just far enough to realize I don't yet know much of anything about medicine or the real day to day life I'll have as a doctor, nor do I know enough to fairly decide if I would do it again.

But I do know that most days I am still very excited to learn more, to get to the clinical years and beyond and see what medicine is really all about, the good and the bad. I'm excited to get out of a lecture hall and work with patients, learn about different specialties and decide on one I enjoy. As far as the benefits of the career, I really do still believe that as much as we complain, sometimes justifiably and sometimes not so much, medicine offers a lot of strengths you simply can't find in other fields. Overall, most days so far I feel like I am in the right place.

Some days, I think maybe I should have become a teacher.
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I completely agree! :love:
 
Reading these posts (and I know that I'm generalizing here) people seem to be falling in two camps:

- Those that are in medicine for the money, or their own personal success, etc., and
- Those that are here for the patient care.

It is not surprising that generally, people who are answering "no" to the original question fall into the former camp. (IMO of course) This is just NOT the profession it used to be for making the phat duckets. And if you got into medicine with that as your primary objective, and are less concerned about actually "helping people," chances are you are going to be disappointed.

After all, there are only so many derm residencies to go around. :smuggrin:

Put another way... consider this hypothetical. Suppose that you cannot serve as a physician any more. Maybe God thundered from the sky and ordained it. Anyway, suppose that the Big Guy also offered you two alternative career choices: 1) an MBA office executive making decent bank or 2) a full-time nurse. Those are your only two options.

Which would you take?
 
ForbiddenComma said:
Reading these posts (and I know that I'm generalizing here) people seem to be falling in two camps:

- Those that are in medicine for the money, or their own personal success, etc., and
- Those that are here for the patient care.

It is not surprising that generally, people who are answering "no" to the original question fall into the former camp. (IMO of course) This is just NOT the profession it used to be for making the phat duckets. And if you got into medicine with that as your primary objective, and are less concerned about actually "helping people," chances are you are going to be disappointed.

After all, there are only so many derm residencies to go around. :smuggrin:

Put another way... consider this hypothetical. Suppose that you cannot serve as a physician any more. Maybe God thundered from the sky and ordained it. Anyway, suppose that the Big Guy also offered you two alternative career choices: 1) an MBA office executive making decent bank or 2) a full-time nurse. Those are your only two options.

Which would you take?
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What med school did you go to?
 
ForbiddenComma said:
...phat duckets...
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That's such a good expression that I will take the liberty of correcting you, humbly of course. It's "ducats."
 
MBA executive. under no circumstances would i ever, ever work as a nurse. their job SUCKS. bless them for doing it.
 
NRAI2001 said:
What med school did you go to?
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University of Kansas, although I am still a student. Perhaps my still being a student explains why I am less cynical about the nobility of medicine... I don't know.

Panda Bear said:
That's such a good expression that I will take the liberty of correcting you, humbly of course. It's "ducats."
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I stand corrected. I shoulda checked urbandictionary.com first.

CJ: "Gimme them ducats!"
 
i think medicine is still noble. but it is noble in an environment where nobility is not recognized. hospital administators, insurance investors, lawyers, politicians, and patients are all doing their best to take a piece of your pie and treating you as their employee. those who remain noble despite these pressures are extraordinary people. but most of us are not extraordinary. it takes a lot of perseverance and patience to resist negativity in the setting of constant theft from everyone around you.
 
automaton said:
i think medicine is still noble. but it is noble in an environment where nobility is not recognized. hospital administators, insurance investors, lawyers, politicians, and patients are all doing their best to take a piece of your pie and treating you as their employee. those who remain noble despite these pressures are extraordinary people. but most of us are not extraordinary. it takes a lot of perseverance and patience to resist negativity in the setting of constant theft from everyone around you.
Click to expand...

How about being a hospital administrator? Now there's a thankless job, as your post shows. Imagine how much it must suck to come into work every day, performing an important job that the hospital needs, yet be treated like you're some thief stealing from the noble doctors (who are beseiged from all sides by the forces of evil). Gimme a break. Doctors just love to be martyrs! Perhaps you should reread your post.
 
(who are beseiged from all sides by the forces of evil).
Click to expand...

Well, on the left, we have the trial lawyers... on the right, we have the HMO and insurance companies... I don't know if they are "forces of evil" or not but they seem to be trying damn hard to act like it.
 
beetlerum said:
How about being a hospital administrator? Now there's a thankless job, as your post shows. Imagine how much it must suck to come into work every day, performing an important job that the hospital needs, yet be treated like you're some thief stealing from the noble doctors (who are beseiged from all sides by the forces of evil). Gimme a break. Doctors just love to be martyrs! Perhaps you should reread your post.
Click to expand...

Administrators are kings compared to the lunch ladies.........now that is thankless work.
 
No way in hell would I go back to M1 and start this all over. The first two years of school just beat the life out of me, and those are two years that I'll never get back. :mad:

Third year has been great, but I think that's more to do with my personality. I have to interact with people, and feel like I'm at least doing something (even if it doesn't really count) to have a sense of fulfillment.

I sure as heck didn't get that feeling the past two years.
 
billydoc said:
Yes, I agree with your post almost 10%. But what happens when you are charged with responsiblity for these stupid, and arrogant ppl, you just start noticing all this. Sure such ppl have been around forever, but you could at least try to avoid them. But now they are in your face, and they know all about their rights, and "haven't evn heard" anything about their responsibilities", and they've got lawers (lowyaaas).
Click to expand...


Honestly if direct patient contact is not for you there are alot of career choice in medicine. Rads, gas, path you almost never deal with people at least not for more than a couple of minutes. I did my prelim year in IM and although I enjoyed learning the skill of talking to patients and family its not something i want to do for the rest of my life. I'm doing gas and 95% of the time my patient is either unconcious or babbling away wasted on versed and fentanyl... helps pass the time alone behind the drapes. I think that I found the perfect job in medicine to fit my personality. There is just such a range to choose from, dont just assume you are going to be working your balls off like an intern forever.

Then theres the world of academics where you have indentured servants to do your bidding and if you are good and smart they'll love you for it. Where I did my prelim year the attendings would stroll in around 9am, round for 1-2 hours, bs with each other for a while then get a free lunch and cme credits for conference attendance. In the afternoon they write a handful of notes, the lazy ones will just sign your cosign the residents note and leave the hospital in time for oprah. "call" for them meant 1 day every 2 weeks in house til 8pm weekdays and 1 weekend every other month where they would come in and round for an hour each day. The rest of their "call" would be via beeper from their home, yacht, once I talked to my "attending" while he was on the beach with his family. For what probably averages out to a 45 hour week and 10 hours of actual work they were making $140k. A couple of the smart ones would skim the service patients who had good insurance into their private practices which pobably doubled their income. One of the docs there took afternoon office hours with a group practice and makes $100k a year for 3 afternoons a week.

Yes the training is basically psychological and physical torture but so is losing a small business getting laid off at 50 with a family to support. Get what I'm saying??
 
How did this thread wind up at at the bottom of the 2nd page? :eek:
Dear moderators, may be this one could be a sticky, especially on
pre-allopathic, and pre-osteopathic forum ;) :smuggrin:

Thanks
 
billydoc said:
How did this thread wind up at at the bottom of the 2nd page? :eek:
Dear moderators, may be this one could be a sticky, especially on
pre-allopathic, and pre-osteopathic forum ;) :smuggrin:

Thanks
Click to expand...



I second that, this is something all pre-meds need to read
 
billydoc said:
How did this thread wind up at at the bottom of the 2nd page? :eek:
Dear moderators, may be this one could be a sticky, especially on
pre-allopathic, and pre-osteopathic forum ;) :smuggrin:

Thanks
Click to expand...

I d perfer it stay in the grad forums..........premed input isnt needed on this thread.

It will only lead to premed BS about how they know they wanted to be a doctor and will always want to be one with out ever having stepped foot in a medical classroom.

I value the experienced posts made on this thread and I agree a lot with many of them. You wont find happiness persay in med school itself......and a lot of medicine does suck.
 
Peanuthead said:
I am one of the people who followed the link here from the premed forum and I was simply amazed by reading this thread. I know many premeds and people considering medicine as a career think it is the most wonderful, glamorous, exciting job in the world and I am sure it is not. I'm afraid some people get so caught up in the dream that they don't want to know the reality, so they attempt to tell med students, residents, and attending how they feel about their own profession! Medicine is not what premed dreams are made of and it is a job, like any other. That is obvious from this thread. It has it's dark side, and a lot of people don't see it until they are in it. It's something you can't understand fully until you are in the middle of it. I've learned that just from reading this thread. It's sad that so many people enter into it and then get trapped by debt in a profession they don't want to be in. After some of the discussions I have had with physicians and reading this thread I figure I have to be crazy to want to go into medicine. I feel like I should be under the care of a doctor instead of trying to become one. The problem is that no matter how much bad stuff I hear about medicine, I still have this pull toward it. Warts and all, I keep feeling like it's what I want. I am sure that everyone who has posted on here saying that they don't feel medicine was right for them and they wouldn't do it again has felt this same way at some point in their lives. You where all once starry eyed premeds. However many (perhaps most) physicians today do not like their career choice or would not do it again. Yet, even the most jaded intern to post on this site has met someone who absolutely loved it. He or she may be as rare as titanium, but they do exist. So my question is this, if you hadn't gone into medicine, if you had been a lawyer, an engineer, or gotten your Ph.D. do you think you would have been haunted by the question of what if? Do you think that even if you had been happy in your other career you would have woken up one morning at 45 or 50 and asked "Why didn't I go to med school?" I've noticed that a great deal of the nontrads on this site have done just that. Most of them thought of med school in college, but for one reason or another didn't pursue it. They may come to hate medicine just as easily as someone who goes into it straight from undergrade, but they can't seem to live with the idea that they may be that one in a million person who loves it. That is what I am afraid of for myself, I don't know if I have what it takes to go down the long road to being a physician, especially with the fact that I have no guarantee I will be happy with it when I get there. I am also not sure that I could not do it, and then wake up one day 30 years from now wondering "What if?" So to those of you who have done it (and the many who wish they had) Which would you prefer, a profession you are not happy with, or the unanswerable question?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a job without negative surprises. I'm 30 years old and have been working for the last 8 years in finance. It is not what I thought it would be. As I think back on it, I don't know of anything I could have done that would have given me a true, down-and-dirty look at what it is really like.

Now that I'm starting (yes, at 30), the process of going to medical school, I think I might pursue proctology, given all the experience I have working with a**holes. I'll need to do a post-bacc program for 2 years to get the requisite science courses, then I'll have the obligatory glide year, then medical school, then residency. If I'm practicing by the time I'm 42, I'll be lucky.

What bring happiness differs at various points in life. No longer am I concerned that I won't have time to spend partying. I'm concerned that I'll be stuck working for the rest of my life with people whose goal is to accumulate as much material wealth as possible. I'm concerned that I'll leave this world without adding something positive to it. So I've elected to do something about it.

I am not married and have no children. If I pursue medicine, will I ever? I worry about it, but it doesn't deter me.

Ask yourself what it means to be rich. Having money? Maybe. Knowing that you've helped somebody? Closer, but not quite there. I think it comes down to helping somebody and then having that person gratefully acknowledge your effort. That might be rare in medicine, but I assure you it is rarer still in the corporate world. Those of you who yearn for something different are simply wishing to swap one set of frustrations for an identical set of frustrations, albeit in a different environment. Trust me.

Concerned about money? So is the guy who worked 25 years for a compnay, only to learn that the pension they promised him no longer exists. So is the guy who gets a 4% raise every year but for whom the cost of living goes up 10% a year. Irritated that you deal with thankless people? So is everyone without the letters CEO after their name. Tired of thinking about working until you're 65, just to make sure you can afford health insurance for the rest of your life? Unlikely, because the 20% that Medicare doesn't pay will probably be written off as a professional courtesy.

Life is about taking calculated risks. Sometimes you feel like a winner, sometimes not. The only sure thing is that by approaching your situation with a defeatist attitude, you will always be miserable, and so will the people around you. ;)
 
Ross434 said:
I've heard that medicine is not intellectually stimulating. In fact, this is why i have decided against it. It seems that day to day routines take over and there is not as much problem solving and learning as there is at first. ie: the next person comes in with a busted appendix, you do the same thing you've always done, and follow through the list of steps. Also, i hear medical school really sucks, intellectually, in terms of consisting purely of memorization with little or no intense puzzles and problems. That said, i'm hardcore addicted to problem solving and math, so i'm doing engineering instead.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree with the notion that medicine isn't intellectually challenging. I'm an M3 at Michigan and I can tell you from experience that many patients are VERY challenging from an intellectual standpoint for a variety of reasons:
1. Patients rarely present in textbook fashion and, particularly at tertiary referral centers, you always have to be on the lookout for "zebras"--i.e., rare diseases. Recognizing an atypical presentation of a common illness can be very challenging at times. Trust me. I've been fooled many times along w/ my interns, senior resident, and even a few attendings who are truly brilliant clinicians.
2. Laboratory tests and imaging studies aren't perfect. There is a variable degree of uncertainty that is associated with all diagnostic tests. What makes things even more challenging is the fact that this uncertainty is contextually dependent, meaning that the patient and his/her environment can profoundly affect the predictive value of test results. False positives, false negatives, results that don't significantly increase or decrease the probability of a particular diagnosis, weighing risks vs. benefits--all these factors add a considerable degree of complexity to the diagnosis of illness. Rational ordering of tests w/ a patient-centered approach is much more difficult than you might imagine.
3. Comorbities are rampant in the American population, particularly among the elderly, and these conditions can affect how diseases present as well as how you can safely/effectively manage them.
4. The clock is always ticking and the stakes are always high. Decisions often have to be made on very short notice and with precious little information, despite the fact that these very decisions can (and often do) pose a threat to the patient's life. Weighing the different options in this pressured setting can be a very intense intellectual exercise, especially if an ethical dilemma arises.
5. People are complex and fascinating. The process of data collection and treatment in medicine involves dealing with human beings and all their wonderful quirks, flaws, ulterior motives, insecurities, fears, etc. This element alone contributes TREMENDOUSLY to the complexity of medicine in practice. In effect, it makes the practice of medicine an art that requires continual refinement, heightened self-awareness, and attunement to behavioral nuance.
 
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ForbiddenComma said:
Reading these posts (and I know that I'm generalizing here) people seem to be falling in two camps:

- Those that are in medicine for the money, or their own personal success, etc., and
- Those that are here for the patient care.

It is not surprising that generally, people who are answering "no" to the original question fall into the former camp. (IMO of course) This is just NOT the profession it used to be for making the phat duckets. And if you got into medicine with that as your primary objective, and are less concerned about actually "helping people," chances are you are going to be disappointed.

After all, there are only so many derm residencies to go around. :smuggrin:

Put another way... consider this hypothetical. Suppose that you cannot serve as a physician any more. Maybe God thundered from the sky and ordained it. Anyway, suppose that the Big Guy also offered you two alternative career choices: 1) an MBA office executive making decent bank or 2) a full-time nurse. Those are your only two options.

Which would you take?
Click to expand...


Ummm. I really think most people wouldnt do it again simply because of the time committment, as opposed to simply a money issue. I love to take care of my patients, and my take home paycheck is golden. But, I still don't think I would do it (medical school/residency) all over again. Its like getting hazed for at least 7-yrs. And, for many people, this sucks the life out of them. Even some of the most kind-hearted people I knew in med school, ended up losing their empathetic hearts. Its no surprise that a lot of doctors are substance abusers, divorced, or even worse dead. I know a very rich, established, seemingly happy doc who shot himself in the head just last month. All he wanted was a happy family. And, what about that doc in NYC that blew up his whole building in a successful suicide a couple months ago. I'm sure he wasnt hard up for cash. Its already really hard to have a healthy social life (marriage, family, kids) in general. But to add the stress of being a doctor on top of that makes it even more difficult . And I really think most people wouldnt do it all over again because it just interfers way too much with having some semblance of a "real" life. What else would we do? Who knows? I dont think there's a right answer. We usually want what we cant have anyway...
 
I ve been in med school for a month and a half......I can already tell its gonna take a lot of out my soul and happiness. I am already loosing friends, my semi-sorta-gf is starting to talk to other guys, family calls less often, friends have kinda moved on (no completely, but they are busy in their own lives), no real potential where I am to build a new social network (middle of a nowhere town in the midwest).

But what can I do, I ve always wanted to be a doctor and I will always wonder "what if" so I have to do this. If it doesnt work out, i ll bounce out before residency and do something else. Having grown up with my parents doing their residency, I can tell you that residency takes a lot out of you and will forever change you....it can break you down bigtime.

P.S. I truely love learning about physio, cell bio etc so academic wise I m doing very well in my classes, but I cant imagine getting through med school if you really dont like the biosciences. This whole process is very time consuming, long, emotionally taxing, and removes you from your life for a really long time.
 
I've been employed in a number of fields since starting college - journalist, law clerk, teacher, real estate, sales. I've heard a lot of "wouldn't go into the field today" talk from journalists who've won Pulizters and lawyers pulling down $400k on 40 hours/wk including golf. They say our generation has a sense of entitlement and expects a lot immediately, yet doesn't want to put in the work to get there. But five minutes later they're harping on about how they wouldn't go into the field today because of the increased red tape and rolling back of work independence. A smart buddy with a seemingly sweet job in advertising has more paperwork and PowerPoint presentations than a dumb friend who makes 2x as much and works maybe 30 real hours/wk as an accountant at a big five firm.

Most of my friends are in the 25-27 range. Who's happiest? The finance and accounting guys who did well enough in school to land a good but not great (non-NYC) job and make $55-80k. The girls who became nurses. Or those birds who got the non-sustainable PR/marketing/party-planning/society-journalism gig that will necessitate marrying well. Soon. Ambiguous real estate jobs can lead to great wealth. As can sales. A buddy who teaches at a prestigious private school loves it, but will he be happy when he's 45 and making $45k. Can he buy a decent house? A lot of the guys who did consulting or I-banking or got the good law jobs are making good bank. But they've certainly got issues.

Thanks for this thread. I could get into a top 20 law or MBA program pretty easily, but even a stellar peformance in a post-bac premed program might lead to the Carib route on the road to the MD. The previous discussions have been quite enlightening.
 
jlittlej said:
I've been employed in a number of fields since starting college - journalist, law clerk, teacher, real estate, sales. I've heard a lot of "wouldn't go into the field today" talk from journalists who've won Pulizters and lawyers pulling down $400k on 40 hours/wk including golf. They say our generation has a sense of entitlement and expects a lot immediately, yet doesn't want to put in the work to get there. But five minutes later they're harping on about how they wouldn't go into the field today because of the increased red tape and rolling back of work independence. A smart buddy with a seemingly sweet job in advertising has more paperwork and PowerPoint presentations than a dumb friend who makes 2x as much and works maybe 30 real hours/wk as an accountant at a big five firm.

Most of my friends are in the 25-27 range. Who's happiest? The finance and accounting guys who did well enough in school to land a good but not great (non-NYC) job and make $55-80k. The girls who became nurses. Or those birds who got the non-sustainable PR/marketing/party-planning/society-journalism gig that will necessitate marrying well. Soon. Ambiguous real estate jobs can lead to great wealth. As can sales. A buddy who teaches at a prestigious private school loves it, but will he be happy when he's 45 and making $45k. Can he buy a decent house? A lot of the guys who did consulting or I-banking or got the good law jobs are making good bank. But they've certainly got issues.

Thanks for this thread. I could get into a top 20 law or MBA program pretty easily, but even a stellar peformance in a post-bac premed program might lead to the Carib route on the road to the MD. The previous discussions have been quite enlightening.
Click to expand...


SO what route are u choosing?
 
Mm sorry to revive this thread but wanted to say something very quickly. Speaking from no medical background of course; not in medical school, not pre-med, not at all. Actually interested in an MPH/MHA. Anyway, I wanted to comment that of the people I know who did go the medical route or plan to, they generally all genuinely felt at one time or another that the physician, in their mind, was the ultimate emblem of kindness and humanity, in the ways that they give endlessly of themselves in caring for the wellbeing of another person, and that at the base of this idealistic reasoning for pursuing medicine was the idea that they too very much wanted to be this healing, beneficent presence in another person's life. They may very well be. But to those who truly wish to impact another person on such a deep level I'd like to say that when I myself compile a list in my head of all of the people I have encountered in my life who have so cared for and guided me in significant ways, the list does not necessarily contain a doctor. One need not be a doctor to heal, encourage, influence, educate, provide guidance, or imbue another person's life with meaning. There are always more ways than one. People will remember you for who you are, not just what you do.
 
dreamsicle said:
...I wanted to comment that of the people I know who did go the medical route or plan to, they generally all genuinely felt at one time or another that the physician, in their mind, was the ultimate emblem of kindness and humanity, in the ways that they give endlessly of themselves in caring for the wellbeing of another person, and that at the base of this idealistic reasoning for pursuing medicine was the idea that they too very much wanted to be this healing, beneficent presence in another person's life...
Click to expand...

Jesus. I am not now nor was I ever anything like that and neither is or was anybody else I know.

I understand what you're saying but am I the only when who just dislikes the crappy pay and the long hours? I mean, other than that being a resident is a pretty cool job. I think everybody is overthinking it.
 
dreamsicle said:
Mm sorry to revive this thread but wanted to say something very quickly. Speaking from no medical background of course; not in medical school, not pre-med, not at all. Actually interested in an MPH/MHA. Anyway, I wanted to comment that of the people I know who did go the medical route or plan to, they generally all genuinely felt at one time or another that the physician, in their mind, was the ultimate emblem of kindness and humanity, in the ways that they give endlessly of themselves in caring for the wellbeing of another person, and that at the base of this idealistic reasoning for pursuing medicine was the idea that they too very much wanted to be this healing, beneficent presence in another person's life. They may very well be. But to those who truly wish to impact another person on such a deep level I'd like to say that when I myself compile a list in my head of all of the people I have encountered in my life who have so cared for and guided me in significant ways, the list does not necessarily contain a doctor. One need not be a doctor to heal, encourage, influence, educate, provide guidance, or imbue another person's life with meaning. There are always more ways than one. People will remember you for who you are, not just what you do.
Click to expand...


I am in med school now and I have yet to meet anyone like you have described. Maybe they felt like that when they were like 12 and niave...those people will change very quickly after the long hours of studying and all the other crap that comes with med school and residency....I think society tells us that we should feel like that to go to med school...
 
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