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NRAI2001 said:
General Surgery residency here at ETSU. I know it will be tough, but I knew that when I signed on for it. It's still going to be much, much better than factory work.
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General Surgery residency here at ETSU. I know it will be tough, but I knew that when I signed on for it. It's still going to be much, much better than factory work.
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Doctors in Demand
By Christopher J. Gearon
To size up the job market in medicine, one only has to check in with physician headhunters. "Every physician staffing firm is having record years," says Kurt Mosley, vice president of business development for Merritt, Hawkins & Associates. With demand outstripping supply, physician salaries are robust, signing bonuses are the norm, and the opportunities for young doctors are ever expanding. "Doctors coming out of school are no different than a Heisman Trophy winner," Mosley says. "They are wooed and wooed."
That's what Milan Sekulic, a cardiologist who completed his advanced training last summer, found. Sekulic says he received as many as 65 job offers between starting his residency and landing his position as director of cardiology at Titus Regional Medical Center in Mount Pleasant, Texas. "I'm still getting offers coming in," says Sekulic, who also has an appointment to the East Texas Medical Center. Cardiologists were the most sought-after specialists last year, fetching salaries ranging from $234,000 to $525,000 and averaging $320,000 a year, according to surveys.
Close behind cardiologists are radiologists and orthopedic surgeons. Other prime areas where salaries are among the highest in medicine include ophthalmology, anesthesiology, and dermatology. Salaries for some of these specialties range from about $250,000 to more than $600,000, never mind the lucrative signing bonuses, income guarantees, and vacation packages that can be counted in months, not weeks. Yet it's not just these specialists who are being courted; it's all doctors. "There's no such thing as an unemployed physician," Mosley says. Psychiatrists are hot commodities these days, as are overworked and lower-paid internists and family practitioners.
A decade ago, experts were predicting a national glut of doctors; today a shortage exists. Aging baby boomers, people living longer with chronic conditions, rapid advances in medical technology, and further medical specialization have spurred the rise in demand for doctors and a host of advanced health professionals. For example, there was an oversupply of radiologists 15 years ago, but the huge leaps in imaging technology since then have made these specialists highly prized. "We're getting older, we're getting heavier, and we want to look better," Mosley says. "We want to look younger." People are paying for cosmetic-related procedures out of pocket, while a call for weight-loss surgeries has created a fresh demand for general surgeons.
....
Hospitals and group practices are still big draws for physicians, as is academia. But correctional facilities are hotly pursuing physicians these days, and you can add the U.S. Army to those looking. "More and more large employers are looking at recruiting physicians," says William Jessee, president and CEO of the Medical Group Management Association. Self-insured employers are trying to control healthcare costs and improve workers' health. Temporary physician placement, or locum tenens, is rapidly increasing. "We're seeing temporary neurosurgery now," Mosley says. Temporary physician staffing firm Staff Care Inc. estimates the temp doctor market is a $3 billion industry.
Pediatrician Mona Iskander planned to join a practice in Tampa last summer after finishing her residency, only to decide she wasn't ready to make a long-term commitment. She chose the temporary market to test-drive different practices. Iskander is extending her original six-month stint at DeWitt Hospital, a military hospital in Fort Belvoir, Va. Meanwhile, other young doctors are seeking careers in health policy and business and consulting.
Traditionally, the wooing of doctors starts in the last half of residency, the four years or more of on-the-job training following medical school. But recruiters are starting earlier. Robert Stenger, who is finishing up his last year at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, says consulting firms are recruiting students before they start their residencies. "Here in medical school, it almost seems like an unimaginable set of choices," says Stenger, who is looking to pursue a career in public health.
Behind a lot of the changes in the medical marketplace is a desire among the younger generation for more work-life balance. "Lifestyle issues have been a significant issue in terms of choice of specialty," says Vice Dean for Professional Services David Kennedy of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, who is also senior vice president at the University of Pennsylvania Health System. It's a big reason more medical students choose specialties--including ophthalmology, radiology, anesthesiology, and dermatology--that offer high salaries and normal work hours.
While older physicians say today's doctors are more focused on money than they were, perhaps they have to be. Debt levels for medical school graduates--including undergraduate and medical school loans--average about $120,000, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. Still, "passion seems to outweigh finance," says Kelli Harding, chief psychiatry resident at Columbia University's New York Presbyterian Hospital and the New York State Psychiatric Institute. "There are better ways to make money than going into medicine." Thanks to a sizzling medical job market, though, today's young doctors have the luxury of limiting the hours they work and still getting paid handsomely.
By Christopher J. Gearon
To size up the job market in medicine, one only has to check in with physician headhunters. "Every physician staffing firm is having record years," says Kurt Mosley, vice president of business development for Merritt, Hawkins & Associates. With demand outstripping supply, physician salaries are robust, signing bonuses are the norm, and the opportunities for young doctors are ever expanding. "Doctors coming out of school are no different than a Heisman Trophy winner," Mosley says. "They are wooed and wooed."
That's what Milan Sekulic, a cardiologist who completed his advanced training last summer, found. Sekulic says he received as many as 65 job offers between starting his residency and landing his position as director of cardiology at Titus Regional Medical Center in Mount Pleasant, Texas. "I'm still getting offers coming in," says Sekulic, who also has an appointment to the East Texas Medical Center. Cardiologists were the most sought-after specialists last year, fetching salaries ranging from $234,000 to $525,000 and averaging $320,000 a year, according to surveys.
Close behind cardiologists are radiologists and orthopedic surgeons. Other prime areas where salaries are among the highest in medicine include ophthalmology, anesthesiology, and dermatology. Salaries for some of these specialties range from about $250,000 to more than $600,000, never mind the lucrative signing bonuses, income guarantees, and vacation packages that can be counted in months, not weeks. Yet it's not just these specialists who are being courted; it's all doctors. "There's no such thing as an unemployed physician," Mosley says. Psychiatrists are hot commodities these days, as are overworked and lower-paid internists and family practitioners.
A decade ago, experts were predicting a national glut of doctors; today a shortage exists. Aging baby boomers, people living longer with chronic conditions, rapid advances in medical technology, and further medical specialization have spurred the rise in demand for doctors and a host of advanced health professionals. For example, there was an oversupply of radiologists 15 years ago, but the huge leaps in imaging technology since then have made these specialists highly prized. "We're getting older, we're getting heavier, and we want to look better," Mosley says. "We want to look younger." People are paying for cosmetic-related procedures out of pocket, while a call for weight-loss surgeries has created a fresh demand for general surgeons.
....
Hospitals and group practices are still big draws for physicians, as is academia. But correctional facilities are hotly pursuing physicians these days, and you can add the U.S. Army to those looking. "More and more large employers are looking at recruiting physicians," says William Jessee, president and CEO of the Medical Group Management Association. Self-insured employers are trying to control healthcare costs and improve workers' health. Temporary physician placement, or locum tenens, is rapidly increasing. "We're seeing temporary neurosurgery now," Mosley says. Temporary physician staffing firm Staff Care Inc. estimates the temp doctor market is a $3 billion industry.
Pediatrician Mona Iskander planned to join a practice in Tampa last summer after finishing her residency, only to decide she wasn't ready to make a long-term commitment. She chose the temporary market to test-drive different practices. Iskander is extending her original six-month stint at DeWitt Hospital, a military hospital in Fort Belvoir, Va. Meanwhile, other young doctors are seeking careers in health policy and business and consulting.
Traditionally, the wooing of doctors starts in the last half of residency, the four years or more of on-the-job training following medical school. But recruiters are starting earlier. Robert Stenger, who is finishing up his last year at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, says consulting firms are recruiting students before they start their residencies. "Here in medical school, it almost seems like an unimaginable set of choices," says Stenger, who is looking to pursue a career in public health.
Behind a lot of the changes in the medical marketplace is a desire among the younger generation for more work-life balance. "Lifestyle issues have been a significant issue in terms of choice of specialty," says Vice Dean for Professional Services David Kennedy of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, who is also senior vice president at the University of Pennsylvania Health System. It's a big reason more medical students choose specialties--including ophthalmology, radiology, anesthesiology, and dermatology--that offer high salaries and normal work hours.
While older physicians say today's doctors are more focused on money than they were, perhaps they have to be. Debt levels for medical school graduates--including undergraduate and medical school loans--average about $120,000, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. Still, "passion seems to outweigh finance," says Kelli Harding, chief psychiatry resident at Columbia University's New York Presbyterian Hospital and the New York State Psychiatric Institute. "There are better ways to make money than going into medicine." Thanks to a sizzling medical job market, though, today's young doctors have the luxury of limiting the hours they work and still getting paid handsomely.
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I am one of the people who followed the link here from the premed forum and I was simply amazed by reading this thread. I know many premeds and people considering medicine as a career think it is the most wonderful, glamorous, exciting job in the world and I am sure it is not. I'm afraid some people get so caught up in the dream that they don't want to know the reality, so they attempt to tell med students, residents, and attending how they feel about their own profession! Medicine is not what premed dreams are made of and it is a job, like any other. That is obvious from this thread. It has it's dark side, and a lot of people don't see it until they are in it. It's something you can't understand fully until you are in the middle of it. I've learned that just from reading this thread. It's sad that so many people enter into it and then get trapped by debt in a profession they don't want to be in. After some of the discussions I have had with physicians and reading this thread I figure I have to be crazy to want to go into medicine. I feel like I should be under the care of a doctor instead of trying to become one. The problem is that no matter how much bad stuff I hear about medicine, I still have this pull toward it. Warts and all, I keep feeling like it's what I want. I am sure that everyone who has posted on here saying that they don't feel medicine was right for them and they wouldn't do it again has felt this same way at some point in their lives. You where all once starry eyed premeds. However many (perhaps most) physicians today do not like their career choice or would not do it again. Yet, even the most jaded intern to post on this site has met someone who absolutely loved it. He or she may be as rare as titanium, but they do exist. So my question is this, if you hadn't gone into medicine, if you had been a lawyer, an engineer, or gotten your Ph.D. do you think you would have been haunted by the question of what if? Do you think that even if you had been happy in your other career you would have woken up one morning at 45 or 50 and asked "Why didn't I go to med school?" I've noticed that a great deal of the nontrads on this site have done just that. Most of them thought of med school in college, but for one reason or another didn't pursue it. They may come to hate medicine just as easily as someone who goes into it straight from undergrade, but they can't seem to live with the idea that they may be that one in a million person who loves it. That is what I am afraid of for myself, I don't know if I have what it takes to go down the long road to being a physician, especially with the fact that I have no guarantee I will be happy with it when I get there. I am also not sure that I could not do it, and then wake up one day 30 years from now wondering "What if?" So to those of you who have done it (and the many who wish they had) Which would you prefer, a profession you are not happy with, or the unanswerable question?
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Peanuthead said:
I would have stayed in the Marines. Now that was a job, and an adventure. But the pay was only marginally acceptable, the deployments were long, the risk of death or maiming is very real, and there is (or was) a lot of chicken**** involved. Not to mention the physical demands which would make even the fittest among us feel cramping in their man-uterus.
So every job has its drawbacks. Don't despair. Medicine is a rewarding career that pays pretty well no matter what specialty your are in. From my point of view I just despise, absolutely loathe, call. That's my number one beef with residency training and if they solved this little problem you'd probably not hear a peep out of me.
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Peanuthead said:
But I do sometimes feel sorry for those people who go straight through from high-school to college to medical school to residency without ever doing anything else in life.
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Far and above, this thread has been one of the most (if not the most) informative on all of SDN. It truly gives the highs and lows of medicine, which is, IMHO, a great career option. But, I still have a few questions to those who say they wouldn't do it.
1) What else would you do?
2) Was there some turning point at which you said, "no way, this was definitely a big mistake!?!?"
3) What, in particular, turned you off to medicine--in other words, what one thing (or several things) would you change to make medicine less repulsive (and/or more appealing?)
😉
1) What else would you do?
2) Was there some turning point at which you said, "no way, this was definitely a big mistake!?!?"
3) What, in particular, turned you off to medicine--in other words, what one thing (or several things) would you change to make medicine less repulsive (and/or more appealing?)
😉
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Panda Bear said:
I couldn't agree with this more. Out of all the things that suck about residency, call is BY FAR the worst. It makes the other headaches of residency look pretty easy. I think I said this already in this thread, but it doesn't take long to become bitter when you have little to no control over your schedule that forces you over and over again to miss holidays, weekend get-togethers, your kid's soccer games, anniversaries, weddings, family outings, vacations, you name it--either because you're on call or because you're post-call and too tired to move. At most programs your schedule is set 6 months to a year ahead of time, so you often don't even know which days to request off. And even if you do request a day off, there's by no means a guarantee that you'll get it. And this is just for the "big" events in life. There are plenty of other things that you'll miss again and again--eating dinner at home with your family, sleeping in your own bed, just being with the people that are important to you, etc--because of being on call. Plus in addition to what you miss out on, in my opinion sleep deprivation is torture, and I can't tell you the number of times I've finally laid down at about 4 am hoping to sleep for a couple hours, only to have my pager go off for another admit or something else. It sucks big time. My only advise would be to research residency programs really, really carefully and choose one with as little call as possible. Or just go onto EM!!
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gujuDoc said:
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Yeah, it varies quite a bit from specialty to specialty. But even though my schedule's going to improve somewhat when I'm done next year, I still won't get all these years back. Sorry if that sounds a little overdramatic. I just kinda feel like I've been living in a hole for the past several years.
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Amxcvbcv said:
Reality Check.....being a pilot is a bad profession and only getting worse. Due to all the bankrupt airlines, there are tons of thirtysomething pilots out of work and the older pilots are getting their pensions slashed.
My dad worked for United for 33years only to be forced into retirement at age 60 and then to have his pension slashed. Corporate would be better, but not a whole lot of jobs for a lot of young out of worke pilots. My dad learned to fly a helicopter so he could find a job.
All professions have there down side.
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*Start the whining music*
Gosh... I was so stupid... I would never go into medicine again if I could. I should have went for my phd in Biomedical engineering and went to be a professor. Sure I'd make 94k a year which is no where near what an MD makes but I would have made it MUCH MUCH earlier and the life style of a professor of engineering is awesome (TAs do all the teaching and graduate students do the research and your ass does the planning but mostly nothing.. you get all the government benefits and vacation time like the government.)
Now I'm cursed with 210K loan and a no match for this year as I earn scraps in research (which I am grateful to be earning.)
I was discussing with a PA student why they wanted to be a PA... he told me he calculated how much a PA makes by the time he makes it and he retires he ends up with more returns than a regular IM or a FP... I was thought about it for a while.. with a surgical PA... obsolutely...
Nope... don't do it guys... go become dentists... (that was another good option I should have considered.)
Gosh... I was so stupid... I would never go into medicine again if I could. I should have went for my phd in Biomedical engineering and went to be a professor. Sure I'd make 94k a year which is no where near what an MD makes but I would have made it MUCH MUCH earlier and the life style of a professor of engineering is awesome (TAs do all the teaching and graduate students do the research and your ass does the planning but mostly nothing.. you get all the government benefits and vacation time like the government.)
Now I'm cursed with 210K loan and a no match for this year as I earn scraps in research (which I am grateful to be earning.)
I was discussing with a PA student why they wanted to be a PA... he told me he calculated how much a PA makes by the time he makes it and he retires he ends up with more returns than a regular IM or a FP... I was thought about it for a while.. with a surgical PA... obsolutely...
Nope... don't do it guys... go become dentists... (that was another good option I should have considered.)
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Faebinder said:
How would you earn that salary much earlier? It usually takes at leat 5 years for the PhD, then you might do a postdoc. Even if you get a job as a professor right away, you won't make that salary to start. I've seen starting salaries for engineeering profs and they are high for academia, but still not 90k. At many schools, it might take the time to become a full professor, which is typically 12 years (6 for tenure to become an associate professor, 6 more for full). So it could be 20 years before you made that salary.
Also, even as a top candidate, which of course is very competitive, you still won't have a lot of choice over where you live. Then you will have 6 years of a stressful tenure fight and 6 more to make full professor.
Not trying to question what you're saying, since obviously I don't know you. I'm just saying that when we regret not taking another path, we tend to emphasize the positives and ignore the negatives.
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beetlerum said:
Sigh.. I'll take the time to reply why not..
http://www.engineersalary.com/Biomedical.asp
Starting salary for phd in Biomedical engineering is 70k and they get 5-10% raises every year in the university where I did my masters. (I knew the exact amount my professor made and it was over 90k at that time from straight up salary... research money not included..) And no, it does not take 5 years for a Ph.D. I knew several who took 3 and 4 years who had their thesis project sponsered by pharmceuticals companies as soon as they started.
beetlerum said:
*I still remember my R3 crying after being threatened by the chief resident infront of all the ER staff for being a few minutes late on her 7th trauma call of the day.*
Ya.. engineering....ya very stressful.
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Faebinder said:
i'll say this.... if i could have had a job as an I banker or consultant at a larger consulting firm, I would have gone for that over med school. Good money, albeit long hours. But at the end of the day, I think the business/finance side of the world is more rewarding than medicine, albeit in different ways. Truth is, I didn't apply and I would have had a hard time getting such a job. Getting into med school was easier.
emtji said:
That's kinda funny you should say this because a successful Ibanker in his early 40's decided to apply to medical school when he was 39 and already in a successful career as an IBanker with 2 kids and a wife. He's now completing MS I this summer.
His reaction was the opposite that he didn't feel it to be rewarding in a way other then financially rewarding and was getting bored of the job.
That said, I'd imagine it to be less stressful then being a physician because you don't have to be on call per say.
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I quite like medicine. I'd do it again. It's a little sad that so many people here are discouraged and regretful. But then again, I guess we all have our crosses to bear.
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Faebinder said:
I have no idea why you think that link supports your point, but it doesn't. Staring salary 70k is not 90k. It will take you several to get to 90k, depending on raise. Also, this is not specific for academia!! Salaries in industry tend to be higher, even in engineering.
You are flat out wrong about the time to get a PhD. People without masters do not get engineering PhDs in less than 4 years except in very rare situations and even with masters I'm sure it's rarely 4 or less. And if you're planning an academic career, you have to do a really good job. It may be faster if you're planning to work in industry.
A couple examples
Rutgers = 5.4 mean
http://biomedical.rutgers.edu/gradfaq.php
Yale (for general engineering) = 6.7
http://www.yale.edu/graduateschool/academics/profile/engineering.htm
Stress? Uh, you don't think it's stressful to be trying to get tenure! It's hard and you loose your job if you don't get it. I don't know if it's more stressful tha medicine but it's very stressful. MDs are so unbelievably arrogant. Of course, without having done it, you just assume that it doesn't compare to medicine.
You also didn't address my point about having limited control over where you live which is a major downside.
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You never get to stop asking "what if?" I'm constantly asking myself "what if I'd stayed in my original field? What might I have accomplished?" Going to medical school eliminates one "what if" but blocks out four years of time (if not an entire career) in which plenty of other "what ifs" could have happened. There are countless life decisions you'll make that push your destiny in ways that cannot be predicted or taken back, and you'll never know how it might have turned out otherwise. Whether you go to med school or not.Peanuthead said:
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sacrament said:
Amen to that! This is so true. I'm one of those "what if" folks who only apply it to the med school options. But I already have a successful career in health care field, and have so many other interests in life, which may never materialize in medical school. It looks like my "what if?" turns into "why?" and then into "what for?"
Decisions, decisions.
I wonder how many physicians are crossing over to other careers, more specifically business and finance? I guess having MD/MBA will get you some laverage, but so could RN (wich I have for almost 17 yrs), but don't have an MBA. Does anyone have any insight to it? Some input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Hello everyone. Thank you to all the contributors to this thread. It has been very informative and has confirmed a lot of the hints I was getting as a first year medical student. I was a bio major and "wanted to help people"...and so the first thing that popped into my head was to become a doctor. I was extremely naive during my college years about what the actual job of a doctor is, and just pursued it blindly. My parents didn't really challenge me to think critically about becoming a doctor because society in general considers a doctor to be among the most interesting, rewarding, stable, noble, and lucrative careers. Only during my first year of medical school did I realize that I didn't actually know what the actual work of a doctor is. I still don't have a clear picture, especially because there are so many fields in medicine. Looking at myself and my class, I'm beginning to think that I probably am not one of the people who will really enjoy medicine. I am not nearly as intense or energetic as my classmates, nor am I as interested in medicine as they are. I do feel that medicine could be a rewarding career for me because of the patient interaction (though I'm sure I'll get annoyed by a lot of them still), and if I could find my niche. But I'm beginning to highly doubt that I'll enjoy the work of being a doctor...and I know I will hate call because I absolutely need sleep (actually, we all do). So I have started to think about considering med school a wrong turn in my life, and applying to dental school instead. I don't know a lot about the actual work of a dentist to be honest, but just thinking about it, dentistry seems to be a much better job. There is a lot more autonomy, no residency, the opportunity to own your own practice, lots of gadgets, and cute assistants 🙂 Of course, doing this would mean a ton of wasted time, energy, and money sacrificed to medicine...but in the long run it seems like I would be happier this way. It's been hard to decide because I feel like I could just suck it up and try to be as happy in medicine as possible, or I can try to pursue the possibility of greater happiness (not guaranteed) at the expense of money, time, and energy.
What do those of you who are disatisfied with medicine think of my situation? Should I get out before the debt load gets worse...and I'm not that good with finances, but how much would an extra $35,000 of debt affect me after dental school? Or how about those of you who enjoy medicine...do you think I should try to find my niche in medicine? Do you think I am just not appreciating the positive aspects of medicine as a job? And if there are any dentists reading this...is there a dark side of dentistry that I don't know about? I'm from California and would like to live there...and I know that makes things more difficult for a dentist. Obviously, medicine is different things to different people, but I'd like to hear from people who have gone through the process (which I should've done more of before coming to med school 😱 )
What do those of you who are disatisfied with medicine think of my situation? Should I get out before the debt load gets worse...and I'm not that good with finances, but how much would an extra $35,000 of debt affect me after dental school? Or how about those of you who enjoy medicine...do you think I should try to find my niche in medicine? Do you think I am just not appreciating the positive aspects of medicine as a job? And if there are any dentists reading this...is there a dark side of dentistry that I don't know about? I'm from California and would like to live there...and I know that makes things more difficult for a dentist. Obviously, medicine is different things to different people, but I'd like to hear from people who have gone through the process (which I should've done more of before coming to med school 😱 )
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As I said before, I would have considered dentistry more seriously if I had to do it all over again. The debt load is about the same after 4 years, but there's no residency if you choose not to. So you're able to pay down that debt a lot faster. The hours are great 9-5 basically, the income can be equal or more than primary care, and malpractice premiums are low. I don't think that dentistry and medicine are all that different. Both are providing healthcare to patients. Saying that medicine is better than dentistry means that that person is still deluded with the prestige aura surrounding medicine which is quickly fading in this era of managed care. It's really hard for me to leave medical school now because I now have this pressure to have doctor in the family. If I would have known about this, I would have stayed working or gone to dental school. I just hope that everything works out in the end. I'll just suck it up and if I end up hating my decision then I'll steer my kids away from medicine.
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boater said:
Dont let a bunch of people on a internet forum decide your career path. Do it on your own. Research stuff on your own. Go shadow a dentist this summer in their office and see how it is.
If residency is really that big of a problem for you then you could probably just do an intern year and then go out and do general practice (though i would spend the extra 2 years to do a full FP or IM residency). I m guessing general medical practice and general dent practice are probably similar in regards to pay and hours. But the MD is a more versitial (spelling?) degree. You could go teach, work in finance, pharm......etc probably more easily than a DDS could.??
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That's not really a viable option. You won't be board-certified in any specialty and you will have a hard time getting hired by any hospital or group practice.NRAI2001 said:
No way. Dentistry is far more flexible and independent. You have a lot of control over your hours (depending on the practice you join or if you open your own), and the biggie is there is NO CALL. Dentists work less than doctors overall; and while they won't usually match a cardiologist or neurosurgeon for income, they are easily in the salary range of an internist or FP without the extra hours.
http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/profiles/facts.asp?careerID=50
http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/profiles/facts.asp?careerID=115
That may be true to an extent... but it's unlikely that you could find a job in finance or pharma that would be as flexible and well-recompensed as dentistry.
I have several friends who graduated from dental school last year, and they are pretty happy about their career prospects right now. I would urge anyone for whom flexibility, independence and income are priorities to strongly consider dental over med school.
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tr said:
The thought of dental school vs medical puzzled my mind quite a bit as well. My hang up on it is you will always depend on being able to perform your job physically. G-d forbid if you can't hold your arms in a certain position, can't sit upright or bend your back or whatever.Basically you're screwed. I know they've got super technology, and all kinds of recliners, but still your coordination, vision, and overall physical strength are determining factors for your practice, much like it would be for MD/DO doing the procedures. But at least you can push pills, and do consults, if any of your motor functions go, but otherwise I'd prefer DDS career.
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billydoc said:
I knew a dentist who had practiced for 25 years but then had a stroke during an operation and was partially paralyzed on one side. It effectively ended his dental career. When this sort of thing happens, a good long-term disability insurance plan will pick up the tab for the lost income. He unfortunately and unwisely dropped his plan a few years before the stroke. Losing the ability to work with your hands and hence your livelihood is a real possibility for any field in medicine too that requires hands-on work such as optho or surgery. But a good disability insurance policy will protect you in those cases too. The more important risk in being a surgeon is the very real chance of getting infected with hep C or HIV after getting poked with a sharp instrument or blood splattered on you. It happens more frequently than you might think. Sure, your disability will cover you for lost income, but your health is what is in jeopardy.
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Taurus said:
Yep! It's all very real and unfortunate possibilities. I wonder if this dentist droped the coverage because he couldn't afford it anymore. I'm sure the insurance carrier does their own risk assessment/management, and if he was high risk they've raised his premiums 😕 But these days among the shriking earning potentials (thanks managed care 😡 ), taxes (thanks Robin' Hood government 😡 ) and the lawers ([lowyaas],who are also good ppl 6 ft under
j/k) what is poor guy/gal to do? I wish those saving/flex spending accounts become prevalent. It could at least partially eliminate the 3rd party reimbersement system, and will enable providers to create some real cash flow, not this "paper tiger" crap. Oh well, just my wishful thinking rant.
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If I could do it all over again I think I would get a PhD in Economics then go to Business School.
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billydoc said:
It was because of complacency. After 25 years, what could possibly go wrong, right? 🙄 Moral of story: Get iron-clad disability and life insurance policies. You don't want to skimp on them.
As for getting infected during surgery, I know of at least 3 surgeons who had to quit after getting hep C.
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Taurus said:
Yeap, I couldn't agree with you more on that, Taurus. You could never be over insured in this country. The bottom line is don't gamble with it. Cut anything else from your budget/expances, but stay current on your insurance.
But to get back on topic, I gether from your previous posts that you wouldn't subject yourself to this med school/residency journey again if you knew it before, right?
Thanks
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Hey Raptor5 and Faebinder,Faebinder said:
I see many posts on here, and also on non-trad forum where so many folks with business background are "crossing over" to the field of "helping people". The more I read this thread, and other "what if?", "could I?" etc, the more I realize that ppl are just looking for an antidot to what they are doing now. It looks like this turn off is pretty much inevitable in just about every field, including medicine, esp these days, I might add. It happened to me in nursing. I've been doing it for almost 17 yrs, but T.G not the regular floor work. I did a lot of occupational health, case management, home care, and other paper pushing crap, of course i did clinical hospital work for about 8 yrs before this. Realizing that I needed an antidot I got Master's and a license to practice acupuncture. Got my private practice, but still wasn't fulfilled. Went off-shore (ROSS) for a couple of semesters, but realized that this still may not be what I want. So I'm still split (at 36 y.o 😱 ) what the he11 do I wanna do when I grow up 😕 . Reading this thread almost from it's inception made me even more ambivalent about going to the medical school.Most ppl in the field (and I know a lot) are telling me :stay the f**k away as far as you can get from it." Yet, I just can't let go with my "what ifs?" Any of you guys are in the same boat? Sometimes I think I'm just getting deranged (G-d forbid), and it's not what I want, but what my supressed for a while ego wants. I already have quite successful career in the medical field, where I have plenty of opportunities "to help people." And I know I do, because many patients are asking for me by name, when I'm not those places. I've never been so freaked out about anything in my life than I am now 🙁 What have I done to desrve it,I wonder?
Sorry for this rant. Most of you'll understand
Thanks All
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tr said:
Yeah, but teeth are gross. I was urged to consider dental school, but I can barely look in the mirror while brushing my teeth (and yes, my teeth are straight, white, and clean, thank you very much 😛 ). Flexibility and lifestyle are great, but you have to figure out what you enjoy as well. Likewise for MDs/DOs. Derm might have a great lifestyle, but if moles and acne gross you out, you're in for a hell of a life.
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billydoc said:
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't go back to medical school. Mostly it is because of your age. At 36, you won't be done with residency until you're nearly 50. You take on too much debt, earn too little income, have no life, and put up with too much bs to be able to practice for what, 10, maybe 15 years? You won't make much more than the loans you will owe in that time. God forbid if you have small children. You'll never see them grow up. If you already have a decent career going and you have an itch to do something, go find a hobby that makes you happy, get married, etc. Look at your life from a big picture and realize that what you do for a living is just a small part of it. Enjoy your life, have fun.
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Thanks Taurus!Taurus said:
Actually I'm married and my daughter is almost 8 y.o. My wife and dtr visited me when I was in Dominica (ROSS), but it was too muchto be away, and constanly worry, and question my decision, and therefore lack of commitment.
I actually still have acceptance to another pretty good Carib school. So if I went now, and everything fell in the place, I'd be done by 43-44. The most I ever wanted to do is PM&R, neurolology, or may be IM/FP with incorporationg acupuncture into the practice. But quite frankly, the thought of blowing over $200K and about 8 yrs of my life to do primary care is daunting. Basically I could accomplish just about the same results by being a Nurse Practitioner, which will take me another couple of yrsto finish, since I'm an RN already. And I could have my education 100% paid for, if I stay with an institution for an X # of years. But being a doc what I really wanted, but now more and more I'm seriously doubting the wisdom of such undertaking.
Thanks for you response, Bud.
Best of Luck to You 😀
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Taurus said:
While I respect your opinion (and it does have some validity) - I myself am a 33 yr old pre-med who is shooting to start at 35-36. I'm interested in primary care, so after a 3-yr residency I will be 41-42 ish. There is still plenty of time to work 20 yrs or more. On one hand I feel too old and have no idea why I'm so intent on this, but then you hear these stories of people starting in their 40's and being happy with their decision. I can't explain the desire...it just is. I have a suspicion that many of these older folks are seeking the journey as much as the destination.
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I have posted to this thread in awhile, but I am just wondering a few things. (Please remember that no, I have not been through residency, nor have I even been accepted into medical school. So, my opinion is probably irrelavant.)
I am a non-traditional student, currently working as an auditor for a public accounting firm. In my view, would I choose this again, absolutely not. The hours are long (during busy season, they average between 60-65 hours per week, during non busy season they moderate to around 45-50 hours per week). I travel very frequently and the pay, when you break it down hourly, is not very good. Yes, in accounting, you can live a comfortable life. We one make more than 100k? Possibly, but not many ever attain that salary. Partnership you say...I forgot the exact stastic, but only like 4 percent will ever make partnership. The other downside, my current career is rather boring.
For those of you who would never do it again, what did you do in the past? Did you go straight from undergrad to medical school? Did you have another career?
What other career would have choosen? Most other careers require equal amounts of hours for much, much less pay.
What about those who have worked in a previous career...what are your thoughts?
Feel free to respond away.
I am a non-traditional student, currently working as an auditor for a public accounting firm. In my view, would I choose this again, absolutely not. The hours are long (during busy season, they average between 60-65 hours per week, during non busy season they moderate to around 45-50 hours per week). I travel very frequently and the pay, when you break it down hourly, is not very good. Yes, in accounting, you can live a comfortable life. We one make more than 100k? Possibly, but not many ever attain that salary. Partnership you say...I forgot the exact stastic, but only like 4 percent will ever make partnership. The other downside, my current career is rather boring.
For those of you who would never do it again, what did you do in the past? Did you go straight from undergrad to medical school? Did you have another career?
What other career would have choosen? Most other careers require equal amounts of hours for much, much less pay.
What about those who have worked in a previous career...what are your thoughts?
Feel free to respond away.
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sidelines, you've got it right...
as an actual job, it's hard to beat medicine--autonomy, independence, no boss, myriad of practice options, extremely good pay, freedom of movement...it's just such an awesome job!
problem is that many people (like me) didn't do any other real jobs before coming to med school, so we can't appreciate that the grass is NOT greener on the other side!
my passion is NOT helping people; I don't think, "Well, I only got 4 hrs of sleep each nite this week, but it's ok, because I helped pull out an inflammed appendix."
there is a surprisingly huge number of similar med students, who like the job but not the work (make sense?). but these students keep quiet, because we're supposed to be martyrs and saints, right? not me.
I just graduated med school, and what did I feel when I got my diploma? utter disappointment in myself, that I allowed myself to continue on a path I did not love, for reasons of debt and pressure from friends and family ("c'mon you can make it!").
I'm going to leave the field of medicine for a while...I have an MD from a major US med school, and no one can ever take that away from me. I'm going to go look for this supposedly greener grass, and when I realize the truth, I'll probably come back to medicine, in IM, still making far more than any of my business school friends, with much more job stability. And, I'm no idiot, so I'll do the job well...I just won't approach each patient like they're my own child (which is what my classmates do).
coming from a different field, you're at a serious advantage over people like me who went relatively straight from college to med school.
and no, I would not do it again. I wish I had gone throught with quitting way back in MS-1, when I realized that medicine is not my passion.
but this is my life, and I'll deal with it.
good luck!
as an actual job, it's hard to beat medicine--autonomy, independence, no boss, myriad of practice options, extremely good pay, freedom of movement...it's just such an awesome job!
problem is that many people (like me) didn't do any other real jobs before coming to med school, so we can't appreciate that the grass is NOT greener on the other side!
my passion is NOT helping people; I don't think, "Well, I only got 4 hrs of sleep each nite this week, but it's ok, because I helped pull out an inflammed appendix."
there is a surprisingly huge number of similar med students, who like the job but not the work (make sense?). but these students keep quiet, because we're supposed to be martyrs and saints, right? not me.
I just graduated med school, and what did I feel when I got my diploma? utter disappointment in myself, that I allowed myself to continue on a path I did not love, for reasons of debt and pressure from friends and family ("c'mon you can make it!").
I'm going to leave the field of medicine for a while...I have an MD from a major US med school, and no one can ever take that away from me. I'm going to go look for this supposedly greener grass, and when I realize the truth, I'll probably come back to medicine, in IM, still making far more than any of my business school friends, with much more job stability. And, I'm no idiot, so I'll do the job well...I just won't approach each patient like they're my own child (which is what my classmates do).
coming from a different field, you're at a serious advantage over people like me who went relatively straight from college to med school.
and no, I would not do it again. I wish I had gone throught with quitting way back in MS-1, when I realized that medicine is not my passion.
but this is my life, and I'll deal with it.
good luck!
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What about allied health folks who came from the same field of healthcare, and basically expanded on scope of practice and no doubt income potential. Although you could certainly make a case for leaving professional income while getting into major debt. If you sum it up = 😱 😱 😱 Did you guys ever regreted moving in the same direction, and not "crossing over" to the world of business, while still having the edge because of your RN, NP, PA, PT, OT ,SPL, EMT etc?
Did you guys ever regreted moving in the same direction, and not "crossing over" to the world of business, while still having the edge because of your RN, NP, PA, PT, OT ,SPL, EMT etc?
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sidelines said:
This sums up how I feel, too. You read posts here talking about friends in business or law who have some cushy life and make good money, but that's not normal. You're right, most people in most professions never see $100k a year. Lawyers are big firms do, but they work their a$$es off, and the attrition is huge (about 5% make partner). Sales people of all stripes can make pretty good money (still usually less than physicians), but they have variable income and also work very hard, not to mention sales isn't a great profession for lots of us based on personality issues. Executives are companies make big money, but they get fired a lot, and very few actually make it above middle-management.
Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of other professions that have the same job stability, income level, autonomy and prestige as medicine. It's not for everyone, but it's not anywhere near cr@ppy when compared with other jobs. All jobs have elements that suck -- that's why you get paid to do them. What you have to do is find a job that sucks the least for you. 🙂 Medicine is that for lots of people, but is a huge mismatch for others.
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Being a doctor could not be possibly any worse than any other job. Everyone complains that they don't make enough money, dont get enough respect, dont have enough control, ect, ect. Practicing medicine is one of the only jobs in which you can hop from job to job and make a decent salary. I have read many too many stories about women who switch jobs, work part time, or quit for long periods of time and still get paid close to six figures, which I assure you is utterly imposible in almost, if not all other professions. IN reality, doctors have it easy, because they are usually promised at least a decent salary while lawyers, MBA buissness men, ect are not promised this amount of money at all. It is funny how so many people complain about dealing with arrogant, mean, or just stupid people on a day to day basis ina profession and are suprised by it. Were not these same people around when you were in college, high school ect. The fact is, some people like this are people themselves who don't realize that their attitude and actions merit the exact actions they complain about. There are millions of people in the world who are arrogant and greedy and everyone has to deal with them on a day to day basis no matter what profession you are in. I have come across plenty arrogant, self rightous and nagging doctors when I come in and are perfectly nice and polite to them. So many people complain about other peoples attitudes and are worse, or equal in thier own actions and don't think there is anything wrong with it.
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piercj2 said:
Yes, I agree with your post almost 10%. But what happens when you are charged with responsiblity for these stupid, and arrogant ppl, you just start noticing all this. Sure such ppl have been around forever, but you could at least try to avoid them. But now they are in your face, and they know all about their rights, and "haven't evn heard" anything about their responsibilities", and they've got lawers (lowyaaas).
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I like medicine, but it's not easy. You definately need to have the stomach for it. I feel sorry for those who've found that they havn't. I hope you've learned something from your experiences though. Good luck.
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For what it's worth, I'm not really sure the prestige is what some people think it is. A lot of people just see doctors as their employees who do their bidding. They see something on TV (Nexium, viagra, celias, whatever) and they want you to give it to them. They are consumers of medicine and not patients, in many cases. They shop around until they find a doctor that will refill their hydrocodone (and they will find one, eventually), they demand to get what they want or threaten lawsuits, and basically see health care as a means to an end. Gone are the days of the friendly, wise GP that everyone in town looked up to. And why should people respect docs? A lot of docs are friggin' dinguses that aren't especially intelligent, just tenacious. I know several medical students and doctors that are not intellectually curious, not particuarly well spoken or well read, and just generally bitter medical drones. My SO is a doctor (intern) and a lot of days I wish he wasn't (and I'm in PA school). He has no prestige, obviously. He's going to get his ass worked over intern year and then he's going to spend the next 6 years in training, spending countless hours away from me and our dog so that he can treat a bunch of yokels who don't really give much of a sht either way. We cured your spesis - go ahead and use that IV line we started to shoot heroin! It's all good.
Neither one of us particularly love medicine, but it is a steady job, with good pay. We like it enough to tolerate it, but if I wasn't in so much debt I would change professions in a second. So would he. The whole thing just seems like a sham and totally unworth all the sacrifices you have to make to gratify your ego.
Neither one of us particularly love medicine, but it is a steady job, with good pay. We like it enough to tolerate it, but if I wasn't in so much debt I would change professions in a second. So would he. The whole thing just seems like a sham and totally unworth all the sacrifices you have to make to gratify your ego.
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Elysium said:
I completely agree with that. I've never felt that people do or should especially respect doctors. I don't see that patients are adoring, grateful or deferential toward their providers. Why should they? They pay for the service we provide, after all. It's much like any other fee-for-service transaction. I'm fine with that. I don't expect anything in return for my services than the fee I charge.
But I very much enjoy medicine. Some people consider medicine to be prestigeous. I don't really care either way about that. One of my colleages recently told me that he couldn't believe that people considered medicine to be an occupation of prestige "There's nothing special about it", he told me, "It's just like being a car mechanic". I agree. But that's exaxtly what I like about it. Auto mechanics is my other great passion. 🙂
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