Clueless??

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ericdamiansean

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A 10 year old girl, presented with shortness of breath for 1 day, aggravated by physical activity, relieved by resting. Physical examination was positive for pleural effusion, but there was also gross ascites and hepatomegaly, approximately 3 cm below the coastal margin, non tender. There was no splenomegaly, lymph nodes were not palpable, examination of the other systems were unremarkable.
A CXR was done which showed a massive right sided pleural effusion (no mass seen), the fluid was tapped (contents showed a few gram -ve rods, negative protein, culture and sensitivity was negative). The following tests:
Mantoux: Negative
ANA: Negative
CBC: Normal
Urine examination and microscopy: 3-5 pus cells
ESR: normal
Urine culture and sen: Normal
LFT: Alkaline phosphatase was 204 u/L (raised)
GGT 71 u/L (raised)

Pleural tap was done, but the fluid accumulated again pretty quickly within 2 days.

I was thinking along the line of a lung malignancy, perhaps it could not be seen due to the huge pleural effusion, so, I would suggest a CT, but her CBC parameters are normal.

Anyone has any differentials?
 
Was a pelvic done? She's a little young for it, but Meig's syndrome would present with the ascites and pleural effusion in conjunction with an ovarian fibroma.
 
Was a pelvic done? She's a little young for it, but Meig's syndrome would present with the ascites and pleural effusion in conjunction with an ovarian fibroma.

Nope, it wasn't, am not sure if her parents would consent to that unless there was an absolute indication for it, so probably an ultrasound would be better, too bad Meig's syndrome doesn't have any proper marker and Ca125 is not the best tumor marker for it.

I would suggest it during rounds tomorrow
 
was her AST or ALT raised? she could have an evolving hepatitis/cholangitis irritating the diaphragm and adjacent pleura. additionally, has she traveled recently? theres plenty of parasitic liver infections that could account for these symptoms (rule this out by looking at the diff on the cbc). i'm curious, keep us posted.
 
How were the bilirubin and albumin levels?
 
There was no history of travel, the onset of SOB was very abrupt, she was afebrile before and currently during admission, her AST/ALT, bilirubin, albumin were normal, only the ALP and GGT was raised.
All CBC values were normal, WBC was normal, predominantly neutrophils (approx 55%)

But since the ALP and GGT are both raised, thus, there should be a hepatic/cholestatic problem, so probably I could suggest that in addition to a pelvic ultrasound, run one on the abdomen as well
 
By the way, how long did she have the ascites for? If its new-onset, usually a diagnostic paracentesis is recommended, according to Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment.
 
By the way, how long did she have the ascites for? If its new-onset, usually a diagnostic paracentesis is recommended, according to Current Medical Diagnosis and Treatment.

Currently, she would have had the ascites for 4 days, might have a bit longer but she did not note any abdominal swelling prior to admission.

So, an ultrasound abdomen and pelvis, and diagnostic paracentesis.
 
This is the kind of case where the medicine guys make their money. She doesn't need a couple of tests. She needs all the tests. The differential here is massive, but my thoughts (use the pneumonic):

Neurologic: unlikely
Iatrogenic: She had anything done lately?
Infectious: parasitemia, liver flukes, hepatitis, HIV, cholangitis
Cardiac: R side heart failure
Endocrine: is she Cushingoid? early puberty? growth chart?
Congenital: family history? CAH?
Neoplastic: leukemia/lymphoma
Traumatic: abdominal/thoracic AVM
Vascular: a thousand vasculitis/rheumatoid conditions

Assuming she's otherwise normal and healthy with no family history, my money is on the vasculitis or parasites.

I'd order a Head/Chest/Abd CT, rheumatoid workup, endocrine workup, paracentesis, and liver biopsy.

Let us know what happens.
 
Liver can cause a significant unilateral effusion.

Your answer lies in the leeber...in the leeber.
 
Based on what tests you have already completed, it almost sounds like cirrhosis or even maybe Hep A. I know she is only 10 years old, but did your team do a ETOH level or a medtox screen?

I agree with mules05. I think a pelvic US would definitately be a good idea. Good luck with this case.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the input so far, there’s some new information, so I’ll compile my first post with the rest so that you would get a clearer picture.

A 10 year old girl, presented with shortness of breath for 1 day, aggravated by physical activity, relieved by resting. Physical examination was positive for pleural effusion, but there was also gross ascites and hepatomegaly, approximately 3 cm below the coastal margin, non tender. There was no splenomegaly, lymph nodes were not palpable, examination of the other systems were unremarkable.
A CXR was done which showed a massive right sided pleural effusion (no mass seen).

For the LFT:
Total protein: 73 g/L (normal)
ALP: 204 u/L (raised)
GGT: 71 u/L (raised)
ALT, albumin, globulin, total bilirubin both direct and indirect are all normal.

Mantoux test: Negative
ANA: negative
Urea and Creatinine: Normal
Na, Mg, Phos etc: All normal

Pleural fluid: Total protein: 37 (low), LDH: 159 (normal), after calculating the ratio, it is shown to be transudative in nature.

Ultrasound of the abdomen and pelvis (as recommended):
Enlarged liver of 15 cm, homogenous with normal parenchyma, other abdominal structures including the gall bladder (including common bile duct), spleen, kidneys are normal. Uterus normal in size, unfortunately, the ovaries could not be seen (Can’t rule in/out Meigs syndrome). Gross ascites seen, no focal lesion seen in abdomen and pelvis.
Her plan of investigation for tomorrow would be a TFT, serum amylase and Hep B screen.

*********Now, the interesting additional bit.
About a month ago, she came in with facial puffiness for 1 week, SOB, periorbital swelling, abdominal distension, fever for 2 weeks associated with chills and rigors, she claimed to have tea colored urine. There were multiple old impetigo skin lesions over both lower limb, throat was inflamed and tonsils were enlarged but there were no exudates. There was ascites, hepatomegaly and a massive right sided pleural effusion during this admission as well. Vital signs were normal, no hypertension.

Urine examination and microscopy:
Albumin 2+
Negative glucose
Pus cells 4-6
RBC 1-2
Granular casts seen

CBC: Normal
Serum electrolytes, urea, creatinine: Normal
ASOT: Normal
ESR: Normal
Urine culture and sensitivity: No growth
Throat swab: Klebsiella pneumonia cultured
C3: 1.96, slightly raised (normal 0.9-1.8)
C4: 0.23, normal (normal 0.1-0.4)
24 hour protein: 0

She improved clinically and was discharged after 9 days with the diagnosis of acute glomerulonephritis complicated with right pleural effusion and ascites. Her medication on discharge was oral Frusemide and Oral Unasyn (Sulbactam & Ampicillin).

************
My thoughts so far, during the first admission, she would not have nephritic nor nephrotic syndrome.
Suggestions of a parasitic infection, the CBC has normal WBC levels with a predominance of neutrophils.
There was no history of travel and no one in her family presented similarly.
The patient and her family members claimed that for a 10 year old, she did not take any drugs/alcohol.
Meigs Syndrome is still possible, too bad the ovaries could not be seen.
I suggested a diagnostic paracentesis but the pediatrician said that the contents of the pleural fluid would be likely to reflect that of the ascitic fluid so it was unnecessary.
As noted earlier on, her plan of investigation for tomorrow would be a TFT, serum amylase and Hep B screen.
She is scheduled for a CT thorax soon.
I was thinking of adding on a rheumatoid factor, and since we’re doing Hep B screen, why not include everything right? It was pretty tough to draw blood from this kid so it would be good to take as many as possible.
The labs refused a dsDNA since the ANA was negative.
She does not have Cushingnoid features, looks pretty normal, she’s tolerating orally, currently afebrile, vitals are all within normal range.
If there was leukemia or lymphoma, I would expect her CBC parameters to be worse but they are not.
No SLE features as well, went through the whole list of vasculitis and none fits.
Not too sure if the parents are keen on a liver biopsy with only ALP and GGT raised.
The renal profile and urine analysis looks good as well, these tests were all repeated to make sure there was no error and on different machines, thus, if I would like to suggest a renal biopsy, I would have to have a pretty good reason for it.
Currently, no one knows what’s wrong with her, so she’s just on IV Frusemide, supplemental oxygen and we tap about 15 ml of pleural fluid everyday.
My plan of investigation for tomorrow would be the TFT, serum amylase, Hepatitis screen, rheumatoid factor, and if nothing, extend the CT thorax to include the abdomen and pelvis as well.
Would it be dangerous to start her on low dose steroids and see how she responds?
 
Liver can cause a significant unilateral effusion.

Your answer lies in the leeber...in the leeber.

Definitely leeber 😀

In terms of the [leural effusion a unilateral effusion that reaccumulates is classic, and it sounds like a transudate, though LDH, total protein and TGs were not offered (what were they?)

The diagnostic paracentesis is MANDATORY (we need a SAAG stat), and I'm shocked the US w/ dopplers wasn't already done to eval for portal hypertension

She needs the hepatitis workup, including viral and autoimmune etiologies (ASMA, SLA, LKM1), the parasitic w/u, inborn errors of metabolism w/u (Wilson's, hemachromatosis, glycogen storage, etc), full duct eval, full tox screen and detailed questioning about access the vitamin A, iron, etc.

In terms of the SOB on exertion, any orthodeoxia? An any case she needs an echo w/ bubble to r/o pulm avms given her liver failure and SOB on exertion.

Once she gets her SAAG and ascites from cirrhosis is more likely, she can be treated with spironolactone/lasix, which could really help her out, so this is an important test to get. At my institution, this is done already in the ED....
 
A CXR was done which showed a massive right sided pleural effusion (no mass seen), the fluid was tapped (contents showed a few gram -ve rods, negative protein, culture and sensitivity was negative). The following tests:
Mantoux: Negative
ANA: Negative
CBC: Normal
Urine examination and microscopy: 3-5 pus cells
ESR: normal
Urine culture and sen: Normal
LFT: Alkaline phosphatase was 204 u/L (raised)
GGT 71 u/L (raised)

BTS Guidelines for the investigation of a unilateral pleural effusion


Having the rest of the pleural fluid analysis would be nice. But Since you say transudative, here is the typical list.

Box 2 Causes of transudative pleural effusions
Very common causes

* Left ventricular failure
* Liver cirrhosis
* Hypoalbuminaemia
* Peritoneal dialysis

Less common causes

* Hypothyroidism
* Nephrotic syndrome
* Mitral stenosis
* Pulmonary embolism

Rare causes

* Constrictive pericarditis
* Urinothorax
* Superior vena cava obstruction
* Ovarian hyperstimulation
* Meigs' syndrome​

tx02516b.f1.jpeg
 
Whoops, looks like we were writing at the same time. If he thinks the pleural fluid would definitely be the same (likely right, but not always) then I guess they are shooting for cirrhosis, though none on US. Why weren't dopplers done on the US to look for portal htn? I assume the CT is for looking for PNA or something? Might as well make it with contrast and go down to the abdomen.

I still think she needs an echo w/ bubble

In Meig's syndrome, there would be more protein and possibly cells in the ascites, no?

She needs more diagnostics before steroids - not necessary dangerous since it doesn't sound like a horrific infection but it may cloud the picture.

How has her output to furosemide alone been? Why the daily taps? Since it is a transudate she should just be diuresed unless there is severe resp compromise and if that is the case she needs a chest tube, right? 😕

Hey guys, thanks for the input so far, there’s some new information, so I’ll compile my first post with the rest so that you would get a clearer picture.

A 10 year old girl, presented with shortness of breath for 1 day, aggravated by physical activity, relieved by resting. Physical examination was positive for pleural effusion, but there was also gross ascites and hepatomegaly, approximately 3 cm below the coastal margin, non tender. There was no splenomegaly, lymph nodes were not palpable, examination of the other systems were unremarkable.
A CXR was done which showed a massive right sided pleural effusion (no mass seen).

For the LFT:
Total protein: 73 g/L (normal)
ALP: 204 u/L (raised)
GGT: 71 u/L (raised)
ALT, albumin, globulin, total bilirubin both direct and indirect are all normal.

Mantoux test: Negative
ANA: negative
Urea and Creatinine: Normal
Na, Mg, Phos etc: All normal

Pleural fluid: Total protein: 37 (low), LDH: 159 (normal), after calculating the ratio, it is shown to be transudative in nature.

Ultrasound of the abdomen and pelvis (as recommended):
Enlarged liver of 15 cm, homogenous with normal parenchyma, other abdominal structures including the gall bladder (including common bile duct), spleen, kidneys are normal. Uterus normal in size, unfortunately, the ovaries could not be seen (Can’t rule in/out Meigs syndrome). Gross ascites seen, no focal lesion seen in abdomen and pelvis.
Her plan of investigation for tomorrow would be a TFT, serum amylase and Hep B screen.

*********Now, the interesting additional bit.
About a month ago, she came in with facial puffiness for 1 week, SOB, periorbital swelling, abdominal distension, fever for 2 weeks associated with chills and rigors, she claimed to have tea colored urine. There were multiple old impetigo skin lesions over both lower limb, throat was inflamed and tonsils were enlarged but there were no exudates. There was ascites, hepatomegaly and a massive right sided pleural effusion during this admission as well. Vital signs were normal, no hypertension.

Urine examination and microscopy:
Albumin 2+
Negative glucose
Pus cells 4-6
RBC 1-2
Granular casts seen

CBC: Normal
Serum electrolytes, urea, creatinine: Normal
ASOT: Normal
ESR: Normal
Urine culture and sensitivity: No growth
Throat swab: Klebsiella pneumonia cultured
C3: 1.96, slightly raised (normal 0.9-1.8)
C4: 0.23, normal (normal 0.1-0.4)
24 hour protein: 0

She improved clinically and was discharged after 9 days with the diagnosis of acute glomerulonephritis complicated with right pleural effusion and ascites. Her medication on discharge was oral Frusemide and Oral Unasyn (Sulbactam & Ampicillin).

************
My thoughts so far, during the first admission, she would not have nephritic nor nephrotic syndrome.
Suggestions of a parasitic infection, the CBC has normal WBC levels with a predominance of neutrophils.
There was no history of travel and no one in her family presented similarly.
The patient and her family members claimed that for a 10 year old, she did not take any drugs/alcohol.
Meigs Syndrome is still possible, too bad the ovaries could not be seen.
I suggested a diagnostic paracentesis but the pediatrician said that the contents of the pleural fluid would be likely to reflect that of the ascitic fluid so it was unnecessary.
As noted earlier on, her plan of investigation for tomorrow would be a TFT, serum amylase and Hep B screen.
She is scheduled for a CT thorax soon.
I was thinking of adding on a rheumatoid factor, and since we’re doing Hep B screen, why not include everything right? It was pretty tough to draw blood from this kid so it would be good to take as many as possible.
The labs refused a dsDNA since the ANA was negative.
She does not have Cushingnoid features, looks pretty normal, she’s tolerating orally, currently afebrile, vitals are all within normal range.
If there was leukemia or lymphoma, I would expect her CBC parameters to be worse but they are not.
No SLE features as well, went through the whole list of vasculitis and none fits.
Not too sure if the parents are keen on a liver biopsy with only ALP and GGT raised.
The renal profile and urine analysis looks good as well, these tests were all repeated to make sure there was no error and on different machines, thus, if I would like to suggest a renal biopsy, I would have to have a pretty good reason for it.
Currently, no one knows what’s wrong with her, so she’s just on IV Frusemide, supplemental oxygen and we tap about 15 ml of pleural fluid everyday.
My plan of investigation for tomorrow would be the TFT, serum amylase, Hepatitis screen, rheumatoid factor, and if nothing, extend the CT thorax to include the abdomen and pelvis as well.
Would it be dangerous to start her on low dose steroids and see how she responds?
 
Why the daily taps? Since it is a transudate she should just be diuresed unless there is severe resp compromise and if that is the case she needs a chest tube, right? 😕


A chest tube is not necessarily mandated. A pleurix catheter can be put it.
 
Definitely leeber 😀

In terms of the [leural effusion a unilateral effusion that reaccumulates is classic, and it sounds like a transudate, though LDH, total protein and TGs were not offered (what were they?)

The diagnostic paracentesis is MANDATORY (we need a SAAG stat), and I'm shocked the US w/ dopplers wasn't already done to eval for portal hypertension

She needs the hepatitis workup, including viral and autoimmune etiologies (ASMA, SLA, LKM1), the parasitic w/u, inborn errors of metabolism w/u (Wilson's, hemachromatosis, glycogen storage, etc), full duct eval, full tox screen and detailed questioning about access the vitamin A, iron, etc.

In terms of the SOB on exertion, any orthodeoxia? An any case she needs an echo w/ bubble to r/o pulm avms given her liver failure and SOB on exertion.

Once she gets her SAAG and ascites from cirrhosis is more likely, she can be treated with spironolactone/lasix, which could really help her out, so this is an important test to get. At my institution, this is done already in the ED....

I'm at a crappy district hospital:laugh: So, we have to do with what we have..

No orthodeoxia.

She is already on Lasix, was on Lasix during her first admission, was discharged with Lasix and I have asked her parents about adherence which was alright.

Wouldn't inborn errors of metabolism present at an earlier age?

I need to be pretty realistic and careful with what I suggest during rounds next:laugh:

I'll try to resuggest the paracentesis although the pediatrician has already said that it was unnecessary.

Having the rest of the pleural fluid analysis would be nice. But Since you say transudative, here is the typical list.

Box 2 Causes of transudative pleural effusions
Very common causes

* Left ventricular failure
* Liver cirrhosis
* Hypoalbuminaemia
* Peritoneal dialysis

Less common causes

* Hypothyroidism
* Nephrotic syndrome
* Mitral stenosis
* Pulmonary embolism

Rare causes

* Constrictive pericarditis
* Urinothorax
* Superior vena cava obstruction
* Ovarian hyperstimulation
* Meigs’ syndrome​

Keeping in mind that this is a 10 year old girl:

* Left ventricular failure (Unlikely)
* Liver cirrhosis (Hm, possible but I would expect worse LFTs)
* Hypoalbuminaemia (Normal serum albumin)
* Peritoneal dialysis (Not on it)

Less common causes

* Hypothyroidism (To be tested)
* Nephrotic syndrome (0 proteinuria, no hypoalbuminemia, only has generalized edema)
* Mitral stenosis (No abnormalities on auscultation)
* Pulmonary embolism (Unlikely)

Rare causes

* Constrictive pericarditis (Unlikely)
* Urinothorax (Cannot be ruled out, but unlikely)
* Superior vena cava obstruction (Unlikely)
* Ovarian hyperstimulation (?)
* Meigs’ syndrome (Failed U/s)
 
Whoops, looks like we were writing at the same time. If he thinks the pleural fluid would definitely be the same (likely right, but not always) then I guess they are shooting for cirrhosis, though none on US. Why weren't dopplers done on the US to look for portal htn? I assume the CT is for looking for PNA or something? Might as well make it with contrast and go down to the abdomen.

I still think she needs an echo w/ bubble

In Meig's syndrome, there would be more protein and possibly cells in the ascites, no?

She needs more diagnostics before steroids - not necessary dangerous since it doesn't sound like a horrific infection but it may cloud the picture.

How has her output to furosemide alone been? Why the daily taps? Since it is a transudate she should just be diuresed unless there is severe resp compromise and if that is the case she needs a chest tube, right? 😕

Looks like I would have to tap regardless eh?😛
I doubt she has an infection..
I forgot to copy her input/output notes, will get them tomorrow.
The daily taps were based on input by the chest physician, can't put in a chest tube and drain it all out in one go. The reason they gave was this would cause the mediastinum to suddenly shift, this may cause cardiorespiratory distress
 
I just copy & pasted the list.

Keeping in mind that this is a 10 year old girl:

* Left ventricular failure (Unlikely) agreed
* Liver cirrhosis (Hm, possible but I would expect worse LFTs), not necessarily but with a normal bili, I'd tend to agree that this would be on the lower end of my differential.
* Hypoalbuminaemia (Normal serum albumin) agree if you have normal BMP with no signs of hypovolemia
* Peritoneal dialysis (Not on it) agree

Less common causes

* Hypothyroidism (To be tested)
* Nephrotic syndrome (0 proteinuria, no hypoalbuminemia, only has generalized edema) When was the UA done? first thing in the morning? a 24 hour urine might be a good idea. And orthostatic proteniuria crossed my mind, but I think nephrotic syndrome in association with it is rare.
* Mitral stenosis (No abnormalities on auscultation) means little, an echo might still be a good idea.
* Pulmonary embolism (Unlikely) Never rule it out until you've ruled it out, PE is one of the most under diagnosed conditions in the US

Rare causes

* Constrictive pericarditis (Unlikely)
* Urinothorax (Cannot be ruled out, but unlikely)
* Superior vena cava obstruction (Unlikely)
* Ovarian hyperstimulation (?)
* Meigs' syndrome (Failed U/s)


"The ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS) is still a difficult diagnostic and therapeutic problem. OHSS is associated with significant hypertrophy of the ovaries associated with the loss of the intravascular fluid to the third space which results in hypovolaemia, oliguria, electrolyte imbalance, and a rise in haematocrit. The endogenous OHSS is rare. Most often OHSS appears as a complication of induction of ovulation. The fundamental issue in pathophysiology of OHSS is an increase of capillary permeability which results in the leakage of fluid to the third space. The vascular endothelial growth factor--VEGF--is considered to be the factor directly responsible for the processes involved. The most common are the mild and moderate forms of the syndrome. The severe form of OHSS is a life-threatening condition. The following symptoms may be present: ascites, pleural and pericardial effusion, oliguria, dyspnoea with tachypnoe, tachycardia, adult respiratory distress syndrome, renal failure, venous thrombosis, ischaemic stroke, haemorrhage from a ruptured ovary. Therapy should be based on the correction of hypovolaemia, hypotension and oliguria. Antithrombotic prophylaxis is an integral part of the OHSS management. Some interesting attempts have been undertaken to re-infuse the protein-rich ascites fluid directly to the systemic circulation, so called continuous auto-transfusion system of the ascites"
 
I'm at a crappy district hospital:laugh: So, we have to do with what we have..

No orthodeoxia.

She is already on Lasix, was on Lasix during her first admission, was discharged with Lasix and I have asked her parents about adherence which was alright.

Wouldn't inborn errors of metabolism present at an earlier age?

I need to be pretty realistic and careful with what I suggest during rounds next:laugh:

I'll try to resuggest the paracentesis although the pediatrician has already said that it was unnecessary.



Keeping in mind that this is a 10 year old girl:

* Left ventricular failure (Unlikely)
* Liver cirrhosis (Hm, possible but I would expect worse LFTs)
* Hypoalbuminaemia (Normal serum albumin)
* Peritoneal dialysis (Not on it)

Less common causes

* Hypothyroidism (To be tested)
* Nephrotic syndrome (0 proteinuria, no hypoalbuminemia, only has generalized edema)
* Mitral stenosis (No abnormalities on auscultation)
* Pulmonary embolism (Unlikely)

Rare causes

* Constrictive pericarditis (Unlikely)
* Urinothorax (Cannot be ruled out, but unlikely)
* Superior vena cava obstruction (Unlikely)
* Ovarian hyperstimulation (?)
* Meigs' syndrome (Failed U/s)

Don't let the semi-normal transaminase levels throw you off--even in cirrhosis they can be at levels like this because though the liver's damaged, it also may be sort of "burned out" and consequently the ALT/AST/etc aren't that high. I think you still need to keep a relatively broad differential, but I'd also focus on the liver more---in terms of labs see Hard24Get's post for suggestions--I'd definitely evaluate her for all forms of hepatitis (infectious, auto-immune), storage diseases (glycogen storage diseases, Wilson's, etc), toxins, etc. Without ANY travel history parasitic is really unlikely. Did you say that she had a Mantoux placed? If not I'd definitely do that.

I agree that TFTs and RF should be sent. You can get pancreatic enzymes but w/o any clinical signs of pancreatitis I'd guess they'll be normal.

She needs more imaging---CT chest for sure, and abd/pelvis may be helpful as well. This will especially help in evaluating for lymphoma (which can definitely present with an essentially normal CBC). I agree that leukemia is unlikely. Also like Hard24Get said an U/S with dopplers would be helpful.

I agree that it'd be nice to have some alternative to tapping her every day (the peds surgeons at my hospital often put in small pigtail catheters in cases like this--they're great because they usually work well for cases like this and they're not painful once in place). And while the surgeons are putting in the pigtail, see if they can tap her belly too.... (I agree that it's probably not 100% necessary and that it's going to likely transudative like the pleural effusion, but if she's sedated for a procedure, why not get it?)

I know people sometimes cringe at consulting lots of service but this is a kid who probably needs it---I'd definitely get rheum & GI involved, and I'd think about ID, oncology, and pulmonary (and surgery, to do the above procedures). When you have no idea what's going on, that's the time to involve other people.

I would NOT start her on steroids--not a good idea if you have no idea what's going on (and especially if your differential still includes oncologic conditions).

Great case--keep us updated.
 
Did you say that she had a Mantoux placed? If not I'd definitely do that.

.

Yup, Mantoux was done, it was negative, I would probably also add on sputum AFB, Mantouxs could be false negative
 
Her previous episode of the same condition made me start thinking autoimmunity, maybe primary billiary cirrhosis on a remitting/relapsing course. Have you checked her anti-mitochondrials? Plus all the other markers everyone's suggested.

The transudative nature argues against neoplasm (besides Meigs), but it cannot entirely be ruled out. Lymphoma -> superior vena cava syndrome. Did you check her retinas?

And then there's always CHF due to infectious or congenital etiology. And another thought. I've personally never heard of this, but is it possible for pulmonary veins to become occluded, maybe through a mass effect or some sort of congential anomaly? This might also cause the symptoms for the same reasons as CHF, although with a normal ejection fraction.

Parasitic hepatitis seems unlikely to me with a normal CBC diff and clean U/S... the hepatic problem sounds congestive to me... but then again what do I know! 🙂

Great case. Let us know how it goes.
 
Hey guys, sorry for the late update, was away for the last few days.

A chest tube was finally inserted, straw colored fluid was drawn out.
A Ca-125 was done, results were 722 U/ml (Normal is 0-35)
Thyroid function test: Free T4 and T3 were normal, TSH was raised 4.3 (normal 0.25-3.1)
Pleural fluid for AFB was negative

Since there is no CT here, and it is done at another hospital, her status has been upgraded to "urgent" so that she can jump the list for an urgent CT thorax, abdomen and pelvis.
Further investigation for AFP, CEA are being ordered.

With the raised Ca125, this makes the diagnosis of Meigs Syndrome more likely although the tumor marker is non-specific..but finally, something😀
 
Hey guys, sorry for the late update, was away for the last few days.

A chest tube was finally inserted, straw colored fluid was drawn out.
A Ca-125 was done, results were 722 U/ml (Normal is 0-35)
Thyroid function test: Free T4 and T3 were normal, TSH was raised 4.3 (normal 0.25-3.1)
Pleural fluid for AFB was negative

Since there is no CT here, and it is done at another hospital, her status has been upgraded to "urgent" so that she can jump the list for an urgent CT thorax, abdomen and pelvis.
Further investigation for AFP, CEA are being ordered.

With the raised Ca125, this makes the diagnosis of Meigs Syndrome more likely although the tumor marker is non-specific..but finally, something😀

Eh?, where are you that there is no CT? I'm sure the increased TSH is from stress. How is she doing? Diuresing? Improved respiratory status? Since ovaries could not be seen on u/s are their plans for a transvaginal or pelvic CT?
 
Eh?, where are you that there is no CT? I'm sure the increased TSH is from stress. How is she doing? Diuresing? Improved respiratory status? Since ovaries could not be seen on u/s are their plans for a transvaginal or pelvic CT?

I'm currently posted to a smaller district hospital, thus all Cts and MRIs are sent to a state hospital🙁
Currently she's still on Frusemide, but they have put in a chest tube over the weekend, the CXR is being repeated today. She's still short of breath.
They are planning on a pelvic CT, hopefully she gets it done this week, we have the facility for a transvaginal U/S but I doubt her parents would consent.

I do hope to find something on the CT, the tumor marker results should be out tomorrow or the day after.
 
I'm currently posted to a smaller district hospital, thus all Cts and MRIs are sent to a state hospital🙁
Currently she's still on Frusemide, but they have put in a chest tube over the weekend, the CXR is being repeated today. She's still short of breath.
They are planning on a pelvic CT, hopefully she gets it done this week, we have the facility for a transvaginal U/S but I doubt her parents would consent.

I do hope to find something on the CT, the tumor marker results should be out tomorrow or the day after.

honestly....not that you have any say in this, but this is a kid I would consider trying to transfer to a children's hospital...it seems a little ridiculous that you can't even get necessary imaging at your hospital, let alone the services of various pediatric consult services that this kid needs.

oh and FYI--there's no way anyone should be doing an unsedated/unanesthetised transvaginal U/S on a prepubertal girl (which I'm assuming she is). I'd favor other pelvic imaging at this point (CT first, then maybe even MRI), and would do transvaginal U/S as a last resort.

still a very interesting case--keep us updated.
 
honestly....not that you have any say in this, but this is a kid I would consider trying to transfer to a children's hospital...it seems a little ridiculous that you can't even get necessary imaging at your hospital, let alone the services of various pediatric consult services that this kid needs.

oh and FYI--there's no way anyone should be doing an unsedated/unanesthetised transvaginal U/S on a prepubertal girl (which I'm assuming she is). I'd favor other pelvic imaging at this point (CT first, then maybe even MRI), and would do transvaginal U/S as a last resort.

still a very interesting case--keep us updated.

There are a few things which I have learnt from this which I hope I would not do as an attending/resident in the future but as you noted, I do not have any say in this, and it's hard to maintain the fine line between suggesting something as a student and looking like a smart a** and also jumping across that line and knocking some sense into people.

But you learn to improvise along the way and work with what you have, I think it'll be a great idea if doctors get a chance to work in a developing or third world country sometime in their careers to know how this feels like, you'll learn to appreciate all your "toys"🙂

We sedated her for the chest tube, and kids here get EMLA cream (Eutectic Mixture of Lidocaine and Prilocaine) for any venepunctures, cannulas. She's prepubertal, so, CT first.
 
There are a few things which I have learnt from this which I hope I would not do as an attending/resident in the future but as you noted, I do not have any say in this, and it's hard to maintain the fine line between suggesting something as a student and looking like a smart a** and also jumping across that line and knocking some sense into people.

But you learn to improvise along the way and work with what you have, I think it'll be a great idea if doctors get a chance to work in a developing or third world country sometime in their careers to know how this feels like, you'll learn to appreciate all your "toys"🙂

We sedated her for the chest tube, and kids here get EMLA cream (Eutectic Mixture of Lidocaine and Prilocaine) for any venepunctures, cannulas. She's prepubertal, so, CT first.


I've lived & worked in the 3rd world, so I know exactly what you're saying--the resources we have here are far more than most people in the world will ever have access to, and that's worth remembering. Practicing medicine in the developing world is an entirely different ballgame.

But this girl isn't in the 3rd world, she's in the U.S., and there does come a point when it makes sense to transfer someone to a higher level of care. I don't know that this girl is at that point yet, but eventually it might be appropriate to transfer if she can't get the imaging, consultation, or procedural services that she needs at your hospital. It's nothing against the hospital you're at, and it's not saying that the care she's gotten at your hospital has been bad, it just means that she needs more than your hospital can provide---tertiary children's hospitals are used to getting transfers from county/community hospitals because they've exhausted their available resources for pediatric patients. It's really not that big of a deal.

Best of luck--it sounds like you're doing a great job with this case. If you were the med student on my team I'd be impressed with how much research you've done into figuring out what she has.
 
I've lived & worked in the 3rd world, so I know exactly what you're saying--the resources we have here are far more than most people in the world will ever have access to, and that's worth remembering. Practicing medicine in the developing world is an entirely different ballgame.

But this girl isn't in the 3rd world, she's in the U.S., and there does come a point when it makes sense to transfer someone to a higher level of care.

To be fair - the patient is probably NOT in the US. I think ericdamiansean is a student at IMU which is (I believe) in Malaysia.
 
To be fair - the patient is probably NOT in the US. I think ericdamiansean is a student at IMU which is (I believe) in Malaysia.

Yup, I'm from Malaysia and the patient is from Malaysia too🙂
 
Best of luck--it sounds like you're doing a great job with this case. If you were the med student on my team I'd be impressed with how much research you've done into figuring out what she has.

😀I'm flattered..But I guess no matter what or where we are, we should try our best..if everyone gives up on her, she'll be in and out for the next few months, skipping school
 
Yup, I'm from Malaysia and the patient is from Malaysia too🙂

oh! :idea: Totally missed that. I was like, "why isn't she at CHOP already?". It's cool that we can communicate across the seas like this! Are all Malaysians schooled on English or are you just particularly adept?

Did you ever get triglycerides on the pleural effusion or an echo? Is the fluid reaccumulating? How about her ascites?

Look forward to more updates.
 
oh! :idea: Totally missed that. I was like, "why isn't she at CHOP already?". It's cool that we can communicate across the seas like this! Are all Malaysians schooled on English or are you just particularly adept?

Did you ever get triglycerides on the pleural effusion or an echo? Is the fluid reaccumulating? How about her ascites?

Look forward to more updates.

Haha, yup, totally cool🙂
All Malaysians are schooled in the national language which is the Malay language and English is compulsory, but most students here can speak more than 2 languages including dialects, I speak 6😛 And since we were colonized by the Brits, the level of English proficiency is pretty good both written and spoken, you don't get a local accent at all🙂

English is the primary language for medical schools, all lectures, tutorials etc are in English.

The only thing so far is that she is on a chest tube which we drain about 240mls per day which accumulates within the next day, nothing has been done about the ascites. Triglycerides were not done for her pleural fluid. Her CT has finally been scheduled on Thursday,am looking forward to that. Results of the other tumor markers CEA, AFP, beta HCG will only be out tomorrow. Echo was not done, was never recommended because her CVS findings were normal.

I do hope they find something on CT, was pretty happy that her Ca125 was raised
 
Here's an update of the patient, her tumor markers CEA, AFP, beta HCG all came back negative.

As noted earlier, a CT thorax, abdomen and pelvis was done, and in summary, there was nothing found other than ascites and pleural effusion.

Below is the full report:
Right lower lobe lung collapsed, no nodules seen in the lung fields. No mediastinal lymphadenopathy. Minimal ascites noted. Liver homogenously enlarged, no focal lesion, no duct dilation, gall bladder normal. Pancreas, spleen, kidneys normal. No significant para aortic lymphadenopathy. No obvious lesion seen in pelvis, bladder outline smooth.
Impression: Hepatomegaly, pleural effusion with minimal ascites.

The patient currently still has SOB, chest tube is still draining, afebrile, vital signs are normal
 
Her pleural fluid, once clear has now become tinged with blood, so it's being sent for a cytology for any malignant cells, and the CT films are to be reviewed by another radiologist for a second opinion.
If we still don't find anything, she would be sent to a gastro centre
 
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