Bank on Student Loan Forgiveness Act - ask your senators to support this!

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Looks rad for sure. Any chance of grad school loans fitting into this or are we still a cash cow for the feds? Probably more of a rhetorical question than I'd like...

I'm not sure about that either, but it can't hurt to try. Plus, if it helps the economy/our family - it's good for us too!
 
Sounds like it's only for subsidized loans and not unsubsidized like all the loans for medical students.. Doesn't make much sense. Less than 1% of medical students default on their loans. We should have a lower interest rate than 7%. 🙄
But I guess this is a start.
 
Sounds like it's only for subsidized loans and not unsubsidized like all the loans for medical students.. Doesn't make much sense. Less than 1% of medical students default on their loans. We should have a lower interest rate than 7%. 🙄
But I guess this is a start.

Not fair, yes. Doesn't make sense, sadly no. Big money to be made loaning us 200k @ 6.8% while the feds whip up some neoliberal austerity measures for us all. Gotta keep that restructuring of capital accumulation rolling to keep up with capitalism's need for constant expansion.

/rant
 
Not fair, yes. Doesn't make sense, sadly no. Big money to be made loaning us 200k @ 6.8% while the feds whip up some neoliberal austerity measures for us all. Gotta keep that restructuring of capital accumulation rolling to keep up with capitalism's need for constant expansion.

/rant

I should have chosen my words a little better. I meant that it's not fair. Generally you get a lower interest rate if you're less risk. Since roughly 1% (or less) defaults on their loans, we are certainly a low risk investment. It certainly makes sense that they want the money and we're going to be a group of people who will be able to pay them those rates. Just sucks. Plain & simple. :naughty:
 
Doesn't affect med students, we don't get subsidized loans. Undergrads default, we don't, why am I paying >7% interest.
 
Horrible, horrible idea. So many people who go to school now are there to party, or are taking useless majors, and should be out working and being productive. Give student loans those interest rates and nobody will work until 25.
 
Horrible, horrible idea. So many people who go to school now are there to party, or are taking useless majors, and should be out working and being productive. Give student loans those interest rates and nobody will work until 25.

So how far would they have to increase student loan rates to achieve full employment?
 
Horrible, horrible idea. So many people who go to school now are there to party, or are taking useless majors, and should be out working and being productive. Give student loans those interest rates and nobody will work until 25.

Yeah...this doesn't really make much sense. I don't know many people saying "If only my interest rates were higher I'd definitely be working harder!".
 
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Yeah...this doesn't really make much sense. I don't know many people saying "If only my interest rates were higher I'd definitely be working harder!".

I'm not suggesting we should raise interest rates (assuming the federal gov't should be involved in this at all, an entirely separate discussion). But if if you slash student loan interest rates to the ridiculously low rates enjoyed by banks and such (again, not an economics discussion here), you'd see a lot more clowns going to college in the first place, and less motivation to excel in school. And of course, if she had said this about, say, medical school, the discussion would be more about the economics than the social factor. But AFAIK she was referring to all student loans.
 
I'm not suggesting we should raise interest rates (assuming the federal gov't should be involved in this at all, an entirely separate discussion). But if if you slash student loan interest rates to the ridiculously low rates enjoyed by banks and such (again, not an economics discussion here), you'd see a lot more clowns going to college in the first place, and less motivation to excel in school. And of course, if she had said this about, say, medical school, the discussion would be more about the economics than the social factor. But AFAIK she was referring to all student loans.

You already have plenty of clowns in college and schools have a certain amount of seats that they're trying to fill. I know many people who go to college and just play around on their xbox all day with last minute cramming for exams. People are under the impression that a college degree is necessary for employment. Screwing students over with ridiculous tuition levels and absurd interest rates doesn't help anyone except the people that hand out the loans and is bad for the future of the country.
 
You already have plenty of clowns in college and schools have a certain amount of seats that they're trying to fill. I know many people who go to college and just play around on their xbox all day with last minute cramming for exams. People are under the impression that a college degree is necessary for employment. Screwing students over with ridiculous tuition levels and absurd interest rates doesn't help anyone except the people that hand out the loans and is bad for the future of the country.

The tuition levels really are harmful, but the interest rates not so much. I don't know why students would think they're entitled to low fixed rates, when anyone who's investing in a business has to take out loans as well. Education ought to be an investment, not a vehicle for frittering away 4+ years of one's life on a relatively useless piece of paper.

One might also argue that lower rates would boost tuition even higher.
 
I'm not suggesting we should raise interest rates (assuming the federal gov't should be involved in this at all, an entirely separate discussion). But if if you slash student loan interest rates to the ridiculously low rates enjoyed by banks and such (again, not an economics discussion here), you'd see a lot more clowns going to college in the first place, and less motivation to excel in school. And of course, if she had said this about, say, medical school, the discussion would be more about the economics than the social factor. But AFAIK she was referring to all student loans.

Just wanted to point out that I think this would have absolutely no effect on who goes to college and who doesn't. High schoolers don't look at interest rates on loans. If they're planning on going to college, they will and they'll take out whatever loans and not even look at the rates. Because they need the loans to go to school, plain & simple. I highly doubt you'll get "clowns" who say "I wasn't planning on furthering my education because I'm a slacker, but since interest rates are so low, why not!".... :uhno:
 
Just wanted to point out that I think this would have absolutely no effect on who goes to college and who doesn't. High schoolers don't look at interest rates on loans. If they're planning on going to college, they will and they'll take out whatever loans and not even look at the rates. Because they need the loans to go to school, plain & simple. I highly doubt you'll get "clowns" who say "I wasn't planning on furthering my education because I'm a slacker, but since interest rates are so low, why not!".... :uhno:

yup and you have the people who are choosing between schools and pick a more expensive school that has a more prestigious name. the debt level isn't real to them because it's just a number on a piece of paper or on a screen. but once you graduate and start having to pay it back, that's when you realize how much of a burden it actually is. it's hard to appreciate as a teenager but excessive debt can really mess with your life.
 
yup and you have the people who are choosing between schools and pick a more expensive school that has a more prestigious name. the debt level isn't real to them because it's just a number on a piece of paper or on a screen. but once you graduate and start having to pay it back, that's when you realize how much of a burden it actually is. it's hard to appreciate as a teenager but excessive debt can really mess with your life.

So we need to add a financial awareness crash course to high school curricula.
 
Just wanted to point out that I think this would have absolutely no effect on who goes to college and who doesn't. High schoolers don't look at interest rates on loans. If they're planning on going to college, they will and they'll take out whatever loans and not even look at the rates. Because they need the loans to go to school, plain & simple. I highly doubt you'll get "clowns" who say "I wasn't planning on furthering my education because I'm a slacker, but since interest rates are so low, why not!".... :uhno:

Because of interest rates, no. Ease of getting loans - yes. (as Dave said)

There are good arguments made that federal aid increases tuition... thus why undergraduate tuition has ballooned in recent history. The more money you can allow students to borrow painlessly - i.e. federal student aid - the more schools will charge, because they can get away with it.

I think the same goes for medical school.

The federal government should get out of the whole business of student loans entirely. We would benefit by A) lower interest rates, as noted, and B) lower tuition. We should resist any measure which would make the loans less painful, as it would perpetuate the system and ultimate cause more harm than good.
 
So we need to add a financial awareness crash course to high school curricula.

This is a great idea.

Education is considered a mandate now..just like owning a home was during the bush administration. What happened with that? Housing bubble. Making things easily accessible makes it more attractive..no matter the cost. People should be educated in the basics of money lending at a young age.
 
Because of interest rates, no. Ease of getting loans - yes. (as Dave said)

There are good arguments made that federal aid increases tuition... thus why undergraduate tuition has ballooned in recent history. The more money you can allow students to borrow painlessly - i.e. federal student aid - the more schools will charge, because they can get away with it.

I think the same goes for medical school.

The federal government should get out of the whole business of student loans entirely. We would benefit by A) lower interest rates, as noted, and B) lower tuition. We should resist any measure which would make the loans less painful, as it would perpetuate the system and ultimate cause more harm than good.

The difficulty is that students (and frankly everyone) tend to be self-centered - they only want the solution that will benefit themselves, not the one that will treat the fundamental problem over the long-haul. Hence all these stupid petitions. Once the gov't unveils the pie, the entire herd stampedes for a slice.
 
Because of interest rates, no. Ease of getting loans - yes. (as Dave said)

There are good arguments made that federal aid increases tuition... thus why undergraduate tuition has ballooned in recent history. The more money you can allow students to borrow painlessly - i.e. federal student aid - the more schools will charge, because they can get away with it.

I think the same goes for medical school.

The federal government should get out of the whole business of student loans entirely. We would benefit by A) lower interest rates, as noted, and B) lower tuition. We should resist any measure which would make the loans less painful, as it would perpetuate the system and ultimate cause more harm than good.


No, that's completely wrong actually. The vast majority of tuition increases has come because state budgets have slashed education over and over for the past 20 years. Many states now spend more on prisons than schools. In order to shore up costs, schools have to increase tuition. If the federal government didn't disburse loans, then we'll be back to the early 1900s when only the rich upperclass went to college.


FYI, this entire debate doesn't look at the actual numbers. Forgoing even a single B1 super-stealth bomber could shore up 50,000 students tuition for their entire 4 year college career (average debt ~ 25k). If Congress actually listened to the military and never pursued the disaster that was the F-22, we could have funded every single student's education (at all levels) and still have money left over. If Congress didn't force the military to buy a bunch of tanks that they do not need, we could fund 100,000 students for their 4 years of school. This is the true debate. We spend more on guns, weapons, missiles and prisons than the future of our country.
 
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FYI, this entire debate doesn't look at the actual numbers. Forgoing even a single B1 super-stealth bomber could shore up 50,000 students tuition for their entire 4 year college career (average debt ~ 25k). If Congress actually listened to the military and never pursued the disaster that was the F-22, we could have funded every single student's education (at all levels) and still have money left over. If Congress didn't force the military to buy a bunch of tanks that they do not need, we could fund 100,000 students for their 4 years of school. This is the true debate. We spend more on guns, weapons, missiles and prisons than the future of our country.

I happen to like guns, weapons, missiles and prisons. My toys in the service cost ~$2mil each. But we can certainly do better in our military procurement. (For fun, google AAAV and how we spent $3bil on a vehicle we never got).

But I fail to see how a decrease in state spending on education increase tuition at private institutions. Nor do I see how making undergraduate education free be such a good thing (if you don't make people put their own skin and $$ in the game, they will not take the education seriously).

And it's not necessarily true that taking away student loans will only allow the privileged to go to school... back in the day, people could actually work their way through school. Or, you could make tuition assistance paid to government service (i.e. post-911 GI bill).

If you want the government to invest money in education, do it in trade/technical schools. More people would benefit from them than college.
 
No, that's completely wrong actually. The vast majority of tuition increases has come because state budgets have slashed education over and over for the past 20 years. Many states now spend more on prisons than schools. In order to shore up costs, schools have to increase tuition. If the federal government didn't disburse loans, then we'll be back to the early 1900s when only the rich upperclass went to college.


FYI, this entire debate doesn't look at the actual numbers. Forgoing even a single B1 super-stealth bomber could shore up 50,000 students tuition for their entire 4 year college career (average debt ~ 25k). If Congress actually listened to the military and never pursued the disaster that was the F-22, we could have funded every single student's education (at all levels) and still have money left over. If Congress didn't force the military to buy a bunch of tanks that they do not need, we could fund 100,000 students for their 4 years of school. This is the true debate. We spend more on guns, weapons, missiles and prisons than the future of our country.

State budgets for education have nothing to do with private school tuition.
 
FYI, this entire debate doesn't look at the actual numbers. Forgoing even a single B1 super-stealth bomber could shore up 50,000 students tuition for their entire 4 year college career (average debt ~ 25k). If Congress actually listened to the military and never pursued the disaster that was the F-22, we could have funded every single student's education (at all levels) and still have money left over. If Congress didn't force the military to buy a bunch of tanks that they do not need, we could fund 100,000 students for their 4 years of school. This is the true debate. We spend more on guns, weapons, missiles and prisons than the future of our country.

So sad. We spend more to hurt people than to educate them. (in simple terms)
 
State budgets for education have nothing to do with private school tuition.

There was actually a piece on this where private schools have to maintain this preception that they are a more "prestigious" instutition, so they increase their tuition in response to state tuition increases.
 
Hard to educate people without safety and security. How much good do you think free education would do in Afghanistan?

About as much good as dropping off shopping bags full of cash to the corrupt government (that we set up) of said country every month.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/world/asia/cia-delivers-cash-to-afghan-leaders-office.html

However, what I think he was referring to was that we spend more money on "hurting" people overseas than helping our own students here in the United States with their education.
 
There was actually a piece on this where private schools have to maintain this preception that they are a more "prestigious" instutition, so they increase their tuition in response to state tuition increases.

Interesting, do you have the link to that piece? I can't seem to find it on a search.
 
Hard to educate people without safety and security. How much good do you think free education would do in Afghanistan?

The US hasn't faced a credible military threat for the past 20 years. In fact, the policies we pursued today tend to do more harm than good in fostering US resentment across the world.

Secondly, we could easily cut 50% of the defense budget and still be incredibly safe from attack. The US maintains over 700 military bases in over 150 countries. We have 9 to 11 carrier groups, which is more than the entire world combined. No nation poses a credible security threat to the US and yet we are spending more than we ever did at the height of the Cold War or WWII. Defense spending is not about US security, it's about re-elections and a powerful military lobby that views any cuts as capitulation.
 
The US hasn't faced a credible military threat for the past 20 years. In fact, the policies we pursued today tend to do more harm than good in fostering US resentment across the world.

Secondly, we could easily cut 50% of the defense budget and still be incredibly safe from attack. The US maintains over 700 military bases in over 150 countries. We have 9 to 11 carrier groups, which is more than the entire world combined. No nation poses a credible security threat to the US and yet we are spending more than we ever did at the height of the Cold War or WWII. Defense spending is not about US security, it's about re-elections and a powerful military lobby that views any cuts as capitulation.

Not to derail the thread, but while there is indeed significant money wasting on "military", it doesn't follow that that money should be spent instead on paying for students' college. Military /defense is a legitimate function of government.
 
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One might also argue that lower rates would boost tuition even higher.

Exactly. This is spot on, my friend.

Unfortunately, Elizabeth Warren is clueless. What's happened since the Feds acquired a choke hold on the student loan business is kind of sad. The fed will dole out an essentially unlimited amount of monies to students so that they can pay their way through college/grad school. If you were a university which needs to bring in money to stay afloat just like any other financial institution, how would you view this?

"Let's see here, our customers will always have a way to pay for our product, no matter what we set the price at? Let's raise prices at a rate that greatly exceeds the rate of inflation, and we'll continue to get the cash forked over to us site on seen, no questions asked."

Now what happens when you make that money even cheaper by slashing interest rates? "Well, it just became a lot easier for the consumer to pay it back, so let's raise tuition even more!"

The writing is on the wall. The higher education bubble is getting massive, yet the big players involved still refute it because they want the paper bag to stay over our heads as long as possible. It's a win win system they have going on at the students' expense. The universities get a ton of money for all their new fancy buildings and competitive raises for "prestigious faculty" that they need to retain. Then on the back end, the government takes a pretty penny in interest payments.

Some argue "but we need the government to lend this money, otherwise only the rich will go to college!"

We don't need the government for this. The government has caused more problems than they've solved over the years, and they're the reason we're in this mess to begin with. Also, ever notice that the private banks have a limit on how much you can withdraw for student loans? That's because no bank in their right mind would lend such crazy amounts of money to a college student or graduate student who has no assets - it's way too high risk for them.

If the fed wants to stay in the student loan business, fine, but cap the amount of money they're allowed lend to something reasonable. It would probably suck for a few years. But as soon as the universities see the once endless money pile start to dry up, and less people are enrolling because they don't have a way to pay for it, they'd have to drop rates to increase the demand for their product again. Thus, the bubble would have burst.

It's essentially the housing bubble, except we're not buying houses, we're buying pieces of paper.
 
The cost of education these days is atrocious. What are schools doing with all that money?
 
The cost of education these days is atrocious. What are schools doing with all that money?

Building unnecessary amenities and hiring administrators. At my undergrad university, they spent $1.7 million on a high-end computing facility that all depts had access to. The same year, we spent $7 million on a student leisure pool. I wish I were joking.
 
There was actually a piece on this where private schools have to maintain this preception that they are a more "prestigious" instutition, so they increase their tuition in response to state tuition increases.

Sorry, but I think this is a cop out. Private schools charge as much as they do because they can, because anyone can get $300,000 in student loans for their worthless liberal arts degree.
 
Dear government,

Please give up your cash cow.

Signed,
The people

----------------

Guys, it's not happening.

Sorry, but I think this is a cop out. Private schools charge as much as they do because they can, because anyone can get $300,000 in student loans for their worthless liberal arts degree.

Building unnecessary amenities and hiring administrators. At my undergrad university, they spent $1.7 million on a high-end computing facility that all depts had access to. The same year, we spent $7 million on a student leisure pool. I wish I were joking.

Yup. They do it because they can.

As long as acceptance rate is like 1/3 or whatever - (meaning there are tons of other potential students to charge) - they will continue to slap on that premium. No one offers a sale for something that is constantly selling out. Basic economics.

And Coffee is right, schools can say they don't make a profit off of whatever - but stop and think how many cushy jobs there are in academics. $$$$$$. The world of academia brings in tons of $, they just don't pay the staff higher - it's amenities and additional pointless positions / faculty.

2/3 of the faculty at my school are absolutely terrible at teaching. They half ass their poorly organized/written lectures and they force feed them to us.
 
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The bubble is going to come crashing some day, just as the housing market did in 2007/2008.
 
👍👍👍

Yep. Not everyone needs to be a doctor or a lawyer. Plumbers, electricians, contractors etc. make great money...but nobody says "My dream is to become a welder". Supporting teenagers to pursue technical jobs should be more acceptable.

For those of us who do need 4..or 12 years of training, a cap on tuition/loan amount is one good thing that the government could do. What can we do? Ask our schools how we can help to lower costs/stop increases? Write to our senators? I would really like to know how we can act, and I think med students have more power than we think. You guys are right: we DO pay back our loans, so we shouldn't be paying 6.8 and 7.9% all through med school and residency.

As for the war and military abusing our tax dollars - the companies that make the materials are privatized. A few people are getting rich off of the absolutely pointless "war". Dick Cheney has made like $40 Billion from the Iraq war. Conflict of interest much?

Source: http://readersupportednews.org/news...neys-halliburton-made-395-billion-on-iraq-war
 
Yep. Not everyone needs to be a doctor or a lawyer. Plumbers, electricians, contractors etc. make great money...but nobody says "My dream is to become a welder". Supporting teenagers to pursue technical jobs should be more acceptable.

For those of us who do need 4..or 12 years of training, a cap on tuition/loan amount is one good thing that the government could do. What can we do? Ask our schools how we can help to lower costs/stop increases? Write to our senators? I would really like to know how we can act, and I think med students have more power than we think. You guys are right: we DO pay back our loans, so we shouldn't be paying 6.8 and 7.9% all through med school and residency.

As for the war and military abusing our tax dollars - the companies that make the materials are privatized. A few people are getting rich off of the absolutely pointless "war". Dick Cheney has made like $40 Billion from the Iraq war. Conflict of interest much?

Source: http://readersupportednews.org/news...neys-halliburton-made-395-billion-on-iraq-war

It's all dirty.
 
Yep. Not everyone needs to be a doctor or a lawyer. Plumbers, electricians, contractors etc. make great money...but nobody says "My dream is to become a welder". Supporting teenagers to pursue technical jobs should be more acceptable.

For those of us who do need 4..or 12 years of training, a cap on tuition/loan amount is one good thing that the government could do. What can we do? Ask our schools how we can help to lower costs/stop increases? Write to our senators? I would really like to know how we can act, and I think med students have more power than we think. You guys are right: we DO pay back our loans, so we shouldn't be paying 6.8 and 7.9% all through med school and residency.

As for the war and military abusing our tax dollars - the companies that make the materials are privatized. A few people are getting rich off of the absolutely pointless "war". Dick Cheney has made like $40 Billion from the Iraq war. Conflict of interest much?

Source: http://readersupportednews.org/news...neys-halliburton-made-395-billion-on-iraq-war

Just curious, did you actually read that article you posted? Dick Cheney and a corporation aren't the same entity. If you're going to **** on people, at least use accurate facts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717
 
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Just curious, did you actually read that article you posted? Dick Cheney and a corporation aren't the same entity. If you're going to **** on people, at least use accurate facts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

Yeah, Cheney probably only pulled millions. Still - nice to be Cheney.
 
Just curious, did you actually read that article you posted? Dick Cheney and a corporation aren't the same entity. If you're going to **** on people, at least use accurate facts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717

Ok, sorry, I misunderstood. But you get my point.
 
Yep. Not everyone needs to be a doctor or a lawyer. Plumbers, electricians, contractors etc. make great money...but nobody says "My dream is to become a welder". Supporting teenagers to pursue technical jobs should be more acceptable.

For those of us who do need 4..or 12 years of training, a cap on tuition/loan amount is one good thing that the government could do. What can we do? Ask our schools how we can help to lower costs/stop increases? Write to our senators? I would really like to know how we can act, and I think med students have more power than we think. You guys are right: we DO pay back our loans, so we shouldn't be paying 6.8 and 7.9% all through med school and residency.

As for the war and military abusing our tax dollars - the companies that make the materials are privatized. A few people are getting rich off of the absolutely pointless "war". Dick Cheney has made like $40 Billion from the Iraq war. Conflict of interest much?

Source: http://readersupportednews.org/news...neys-halliburton-made-395-billion-on-iraq-war

Why do people keep supporting this myth? The average tradesman makes like $24/hour mid-career. It's crap work and it's easy to get laid off for months at a time when the work dries up. You want a decently paying job as a welder? Better get used to living out of the back of an F250 as you drive around from miserable ****town to miserable ****town, welding gas and oil pipelines.
 
I think medical students (and other graduate programs that have a historically low default rate) should get better rates than general undergraduate students.

But hey, what do I know?
 
Why do people keep supporting this myth? The average tradesman makes like $24/hour mid-career. It's crap work and it's easy to get laid off for months at a time when the work dries up. You want a decently paying job as a welder? Better get used to living out of the back of an F250 as you drive around from miserable ****town to miserable ****town, welding gas and oil pipelines.

To be fair, I would say it probably varies a lot from person to person and maybe on location. My cousin got a bunch of welding certifications in ID and seems to be happy enough. He bought a house but has roommates. Your example seems a bit dramatic. In my experience, I have met tradesmen who can easily make $40/hour and have work when they want it, and have met people in the same trade who seem to be unemployed... In general, it seems like the market is less flooded than in typically "appealing" careers and the public will always need these services.

One definite downside is that they are physically demanding jobs and can be really hard on ones body in the long run, so that's something to consider.
 
With inflation at historic lows, it is a CRIME that student loan interest rates are so high... There is NO justification for charging students 600 or 700 or 800 basis points above the government's borrowing cost.. (AND CAPITALIZING INTEREST indiscriminately)

If we could only find EVIDENCE that the Department of Ed is PROFITING from high student loan interest rates, we'd be somewhere.. Do you REALIZE that European students SEE the interest rates that OUR GOVERNMENT charges students and find it another piece of EVIDENCE of the FAILURE OF OUR GOVERNMENT ...?
 
Why do people keep supporting this myth? The average tradesman makes like $24/hour mid-career. It's crap work and it's easy to get laid off for months at a time when the work dries up. You want a decently paying job as a welder? Better get used to living out of the back of an F250 as you drive around from miserable ****town to miserable ****town, welding gas and oil pipelines.

I also find it funny that virtually every single person on the tradesman bandwagon around the web is either attending/a graduate of/planning to go to law/med/engineering/other desirable education paths.

You see sucking it up and becoming a tradesman is something OTHER people and their kids should have to do. Not me I'm destined for greatness.
 
I also find it funny that virtually every single person on the tradesman bandwagon around the web is either attending/a graduate of/planning to go to law/med/engineering/other desirable education paths.

You see sucking it up and becoming a tradesman is something OTHER people and their kids should have to do. Not me I'm destined for greatness.

Yeah it's really weird that you don't see that many welders or oil rig workers on the Student Doctor Network forums...
 
I also find it funny that virtually every single person on the tradesman bandwagon around the web is either attending/a graduate of/planning to go to law/med/engineering/other desirable education paths.

You see sucking it up and becoming a tradesman is something OTHER people and their kids should have to do. Not me I'm destined for greatness.

I fail to see your point. Most people who go to med school 1) are smart and 2) enjoy science courses, which translated to (mostly) As in undergrad. Plumbing, auto repair, and being an electrician also require smarts, just not necessarily interest in sciences.
 
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