Threads or experiences that have made you reconsider medicine

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=10

Then I realized that these people will grow up eventually, and they really represent a minority in medicine.

Realized that doubling up Genetics and Immunology was a bad idea and dropped Genetics after the second class. Background is that I work full-time and have a 5 hour o. chem I class as well. 12 credit hours spread out over a 315 mile-a-week drive time among 2 schools and my job was unsustainable if I actually wanted A's. These courses are once a week so I dropped one as soon as I realized it was going to be too much. I was well within the 09/16 deadline to cancel a class free and clear but turns out 50% tuition refund kicked in after 08/30. So, it cost $476 plus a $15 "technology fee" and $99 "administrative" fee to "cancel" this class. I also had to pay $350 as a "new student" beginning Fall 2013.

The 4-year American university has become such a predatory operation that it makes even the worst finance trickery look like child's play. The problem is that this is truly small potatoes against the $286,000 D.O. price tag that would await me. I'm 34 and broke as hell. Why am I not looking into plumber or industrial electrician at my local community college again?

Aminex said:

Why am I not looking into plumber or industrial electrician at my local community college again?

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Because twenty years from now you want to be a doctor, not a plumber with arthritis in both hands, sore knees and a job that still makes you work in smelly cramped crawlspaces. Keep looking at the end goal. This will be worth it in the end.

Working at a Biglaw firm: hearing and seeing how much people make (roughly $160k on average their first year out of law school; hearing from accounting and billing how much partners bring in; even the staff do well), having access to clients that literally run the political and financial world, handling resumes (and thinking that I could do this too), seeing that law school is only 3 years long, making connections there, etc.

All of this made me realize how much I want to be a doctor. Somehow, despite all of that money, all of those perks, and the belief that I could succeed in Biglaw, I still wanted to be a doctor. My wanting to be a doctor despite all of the above, made me question my sanity to some degree. How could I want to spend 10 years, essentially making no money or negative digits, to get into a pushed-around occupation IMO (by insurance companies and law makers), when I could go to law school?

I resolved this by running an analysis of myself, my values, my skills, etc. and seeing how that matched up with both occupations. I'm still trying to get into medical school.

My opinion about Biglaw hiring (only read if you're interested): In my opinion, the biggest obstacle to getting into a Biglaw firm, is not knowing how to do it: Interviews take place right after your first year which catches some people off guard, the best candidates will have experience in a Biglaw firm and connections and experience in law and many candidates don't have that, you need a fun personality or at least to really get along with a partner which is just about everyone, you need to look and act right within certain boundaries, and have some impressive EC's. A polished applicant knows this. Where you go to school isn't important or carries very little weight in most cases. Again, I handled resumes. (Some would argue that 1st year grades are the Biggest obstacle, I disagree within certain limits. Some would argue that the system is fixed, and it is to some degree, but not entirely. Some partners know who they want to hire before the hiring process starts, but many don't.)

How important is money IMO: Very. Money can save your life. It can save your family's life. It is what almost every "good cause" is lacking. Money is an essential part of fixing most societal problems. IMO, to say that money doesn't matter is naive, as is saying it's "everything." (I only bring this up because I think my response almost begs the question.)

moco89 said:

Please post threads, posts, or experiences that have made you reconsider medicine.

I came across this thread of a person in a similar situation as me, although the OP is way out of line.

Medicine is now certainly on the back-burner, for me. 🙁

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Gauss44 said:

Working at a Biglaw firm: hearing and seeing how much people make (roughly $160k on average their first year out of law school; hearing from accounting and billing how much partners bring in; even the staff do well), having access to clients that literally run the political and financial world, handling resumes (and thinking that I could do this too), seeing that law school is only 3 years long, making connections there, etc.

All of this made me realize how much I want to be a doctor. Somehow, despite all of that money, all of those perks, and the belief that I could succeed in Biglaw, I still wanted to be a doctor. My wanting to be a doctor despite all of the above, made me question my sanity to some degree. How could I want to spend 10 years, essentially making no money or negative digits, to get into a pushed-around occupation IMO (by insurance companies and law makers), when I could go to law school?

I resolved this by running an analysis of myself, my values, my skills, etc. and seeing how that matched up with both occupations. I'm still trying to get into medical school.

My opinion about Biglaw hiring (only read if you're interested): In my opinion, the biggest obstacle to getting into a Biglaw firm, is not knowing how to do it: Interviews take place right after your first year which catches some people off guard, the best candidates will have experience in a Biglaw firm and connections and experience in law and many candidates don't have that, you need a fun personality or at least to really get along with a partner which is just about everyone, you need to look and act right within certain boundaries, and have some impressive EC's. A polished applicant knows this. Where you go to school isn't important or carries very little weight in most cases. Again, I handled resumes. (Some would argue that 1st year grades are the Biggest obstacle, I disagree within certain limits. Some would argue that the system is fixed, and it is to some degree, but not entirely. Some partners know who they want to hire before the hiring process starts, but many don't.)

How important is money IMO: Very. Money can save your life. It can save your family's life. It is what almost every "good cause" is lacking. Money is an essential part of fixing most societal problems. IMO, to say that money doesn't matter is naive, as is saying it's "everything." (I only bring this up because I think my response almost begs the question.)

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Saying that you know you want to go to medical school because you are turning down a "biglaw to biglaw partner" career is like me saying that I knew I wanted to be a physician because being the starting QB for the Cowboys wasn't enough.

Also, did you work in the direct hiring of lawyers at a biglaw firm? Some of the things you are saying are VERY different than what almost all law students/lawyers have said.

Gauss44 said:

Working at a Biglaw firm: hearing and seeing how much people make (roughly $160k on average their first year out of law school; hearing from accounting and billing how much partners bring in; even the staff do well), having access to clients that literally run the political and financial world, handling resumes (and thinking that I could do this too), seeing that law school is only 3 years long, making connections there, etc.

All of this made me realize how much I want to be a doctor. Somehow, despite all of that money, all of those perks, and the belief that I could succeed in Biglaw, I still wanted to be a doctor. My wanting to be a doctor despite all of the above, made me question my sanity to some degree. How could I want to spend 10 years, essentially making no money or negative digits, to get into a pushed-around occupation IMO (by insurance companies and law makers), when I could go to law school?

I resolved this by running an analysis of myself, my values, my skills, etc. and seeing how that matched up with both occupations. I'm still trying to get into medical school.

My opinion about Biglaw hiring (only read if you're interested): In my opinion, the biggest obstacle to getting into a Biglaw firm, is not knowing how to do it: Interviews take place right after your first year which catches some people off guard, the best candidates will have experience in a Biglaw firm and connections and experience in law and many candidates don't have that, you need a fun personality or at least to really get along with a partner which is just about everyone, you need to look and act right within certain boundaries, and have some impressive EC's. A polished applicant knows this. Where you go to school isn't important or carries very little weight in most cases. Again, I handled resumes. (Some would argue that 1st year grades are the Biggest obstacle, I disagree within certain limits. Some would argue that the system is fixed, and it is to some degree, but not entirely. Some partners know who they want to hire before the hiring process starts, but many don't.)

How important is money IMO: Very. Money can save your life. It can save your family's life. It is what almost every "good cause" is lacking. Money is an essential part of fixing most societal problems. IMO, to say that money doesn't matter is naive, as is saying it's "everything." (I only bring this up because I think my response almost begs the question.)

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I don't know anything about law except for the fact that to have a reasonable shot at a biglaw you will need to go to top ten school or so and be at least in the top half of your class, which is graded on the curve.

SunsFun said:

I don't know anything about law except for the fact that to have a reasonable shot at a biglaw you will need to go to top ten school or so and be at least in the top half of your class, which is graded on the curve.

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The first part of that definitely isn't true. The second part depends. I can't find any good sources that sum up where the partners in any given Biglaw firm went to school, but if you search Martindale, you'll see that Biglaw attorneys come from all over. The majority are not from top law schools.

Gauss44 said:

The first part of that definitely isn't true. The second part depends. I can't find any good sources that sum up where the partners in any given Biglaw firm went to school, but if you search Martindale, you'll see that Biglaw attorneys come from all over. The majority are not from top law schools.

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I don't need to do that. There is actual data showing a drop in the % of students getting biglaw that become very noticeable after about 15 schools and insanely large after about 30. Maybe 30 years ago going to a crappy law school didn't matter. Right now it is a kiss of death.

TheWeeIceMan said:

Saying that you know you want to go to medical school because you are turning down a "biglaw to biglaw partner" career...

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Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

The original post asks, "What made you reconsider medicine?" This is far different than your twisting of words. I don't know you and don't know why you have to be like this. It's very unpleasant.

SunsFun said:

I don't need to do that. There is actual data showing a drop in the % of students getting biglaw that become very noticeable after about 15 schools and insanely large after about 30. Maybe 30 years ago going to a crappy law school didn't matter. Right now it is a kiss of death.

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Again, you can look this up for yourself. Most law firms are proud of their new associates and summer associates and display them on their websites along with where they went to school. It's easy to find.

Most of the time Biglaw firms invite their summer associates back to become 1st year full-time associates upon graduation. So if you find data about summer associates, that's usually just as good. I went ahead and looked up Hale and Dorr's 2011 summer associates. Here they are: http://www.wilmerhalecareers.com/summer/meetsummerassociates/

I'm probably going to stop responding to comments and questions about Biglaw on this thread. This is not part of OP's topic.

Back on topic...
But perhaps the converse of what the OP was thinking...

Several years ago, I was searching for any career but medicine when I took an afternoon to go to the Bodies exhibit. I was originally turned off by medicine because I had only seen the primary care specialties and all the hassles that go into them- such as spending more time on paperwork and fighting insurance companies than actually practicing. The exhibit made me realize how much I love the science and art of medicine and I started looking into other specialties. So far path is what has really sparked my interest.

Last day of a four day, twelve-hour shift stretch, assisting a LP procedure on an altered mental status patient, without sedation. Got blood exposure, had to get tested and follow a protocol for the next six months. Sure made me consider what I was doing. Thank God, my tests were negative--but in a moment it could have turned my life upside down if I had an open wound or if it had landed in any mucous membranes.

P.S. There was three of us in the room, and I am a tech.

I anticipate that with the Affordable Care Act, doctors will make much less, and future graduates will (for a little while at least) have the 200,000 in loans.

This gives me pause.

InHIShand said:

Last day of a four day, twelve-hour shift stretch, assisting a LP procedure on an altered mental status patient, without sedation. Got blood exposure, had to get tested and follow a protocol for the next six months. Sure made me consider what I was doing. Thank God, my tests were negative--but in a moment it could have turned my life upside down if I had an open wound or if it had landed in any mucous membranes.

P.S. There was three of us in the room, and I am a tech.

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Yea, ya know, I am kind of annoyed by the greatest emphasis being on grades for MS. Yes, given, students should be bright and do well in their studies. Don't have a problem with that. It's just that it seems emphasized almost to an exclusion of other important things--like how smelly, sweaty, tiring, aching, life-threatening, and emotionally draining medicine and healthcare is to work in????? How MANY docs have I talked to, over and over and over, that say they wish they had considered something other than medicine???? I have lost count--even though there are many great ones that love what they do too.

Here's the thing. IMHO, for the most part, you really need to care about people. We can't effectively and objectively measure this for MS candidates, so it gets brushed aside so often. Yes you can accept people that will make good med students, but they will not necessarily make great or even good docs, b/c their heart and soul is NOT into it. This kind of work will sack you on the field over and over again, while it can also be almost perpetually draining. Your ability to get back up and try to actually help your team (patients and families--they really have to be on the team) will depend upon how much you really care about people. It will be about WHAT YOU DO--streaming out from that perspective.

Sure, you could consider radiology or pathology, which are interesting in their own way, but most of the need in medicine is where people are. And people can be smelly, demanding, overwhelming ill-with system after system failing, and all of what that entails--as well as highly stressed.. They are scared, frustrated, sometimes ridiculous PIAs--or their families may be as well; but their needs must be addressed--preferably by someone that actually cares enough to go the extra mile--often many times within each day. It really is ALL ABOUT THEM and not you. At the same time, if the right kind of doc doesn't have the right balance in her/his life, severe burnout will become inevitable. You can write it down, and bet everything on it.

Is that about pushing the impossible to achieve sainthood? Maybe at times, but overall, I don't think so. I think it's just part of the baseline requirement for the job.

People get all hot to get into this line of work without immersing themselves into all the incredibly stressful, ridiculous, or gory details that come naturally with the job. The fantasy of what the role entails becomes lost in the sea of demands and stressors of what it really is. IMHO, it's not the normal kind of office or 9 to 5 or 6 or 7 stress. It's a whole different animal in so many ways. Pre-medically immersion in medicine is an extremely wise bet--all the way around.

Xenops said:

I anticipate that with the Affordable Care Act, doctors will make much less, and future graduates will (for a little while at least) have the 200,000 in loans.

This gives me pause.

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People don't want to face this reality I think. As things move in the direction of people going to the government-based options, salaries will be capped. Many things will be capped. They will have to be. It just that some folks don't want to face it.