AA - thoughts on overrepresentation as well

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JDAWG07

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This is an excerpt from

"Some Minorities Are More Minor than Others"

Ron K. Unz
Wall Street Journal
Monday, November 16, 1998.


From the very beginnings of affirmative action in the 1960s, its underlying justification has always been that it resolves the problem of "underrepresentation." The basis for this argument is the view that the elite institutions of our society should reflect the diversity of America's society, and that if certain groups--such as blacks or women--seem to be receiving less than their statistical share, discrimination (whether conscious or unconscious) is the likely culprit. In fact, many diversity advocates believe that society should correct for such imbalances even absent any discrimination whatsoever.

But for all the endless discussion over the origins and cure for chronic demographic underrepresentation, there has been near total silence regarding the flip side of the issue, namely demographic overrepresentation. The underrepresentation of some groups is an inevitable consequence of the overrepresentation of other groups, and one issue cannot be properly addressed without the other.

Consider Harvard College. Over the past few years, black enrollment has averaged 8% and Hispanic enrollment 7%. Despite Harvard's longstanding commitment to affirmative action (recently reiterated in a widely discussed new book co-authored by Harvard's ex-President Derek Bok), these levels are substantially lower than their 12% and 10% representation in the general population, and there are periodic complaints by ethnic activists that Harvard is insufficiently committed to "diversity."

But these numbers become much less surprising when we examine Harvard's enrollment more closely. For example, Asians comprise between 2% and 3% of the U.S. population, but nearly 20% of Harvard undergraduates. Then too, between a quarter and a third of Harvard students identify themselves as Jewish, while Jews also represent just 2% to 3% of the overall population. Thus, it appears that Jews and Asians constitute approximately half of Harvard's student body, leaving the other half for the remaining 95% of America.

Under these circumstances, chronic underrepresentation of other ethnic groups---with or without affirmative action---is mathematically inevitable, and the only real issue is the allocation of such underrepresentation. Since black and Hispanics are virtually guaranteed a certain number of slots, and Harvard also admits a considerable number of foreign students, the number of remaining slots is further reduced. In fact, it seems likely that non-Jewish white Americans represent no more than a quarter of Harvard undergraduates, even though this group constitutes nearly 75% of the population at large, resulting in a degree of underrepresentation far more severe than that of blacks, Hispanics or any other minority groups.

Furthermore, even among non-Jewish whites there is almost certainly a severe skew in representation, with Northeastern WASPs being far better represented than other demographic or religious groups such as Baptists or Southerners. (It's hard to know for sure, since Harvard doesn't release breakdowns of the student body by religion.)

These facts should make supporters of affirmative action very uncomfortable. Large numbers of rejected applicants from these underrepresented groups doubtless have much higher admissions scores than many black or Hispanic admittees--as well as the unique cultural experiences prized by diversity advocates--and are much farther from parity with their share of the general population. Thus, current affirmative action policies actually act to increase rather than decrease ethnic underrepresentation at the college.

Other than repealing the laws of mathematics, the only solution available to supporters of affirmative action would be to adopt a policy aimed at drastically reducing the number of Asians and Jews at Harvard, thereby furnishing more spots for other groups. But Asian and Jewish organizations would surely object, and the policy would be controversial to say the least.

This entire ethnic dilemma is present to a greater or lesser degree at most of our other elite educational institutions: Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley and so on. And partly because these universities act as a natural springboard to elite careers in law, medicine, finance and technology, many of these commanding heights of American society seem to exhibit a similar skew in demographic composition.

Seen in this light, the well-known hostility of "angry white males" toward affirmative action programs may represent less the pique of the privileged and more the resentment of the discriminated-against.

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JDAWG07 said:
For example, Asians comprise between 2% and 3% of the U.S. population, but nearly 20% of Harvard undergraduates. Then too, between a quarter and a third of Harvard students identify themselves as Jewish, while Jews also represent just 2% to 3% of the overall population. Thus, it appears that Jews and Asians constitute approximately half of Harvard's student body, leaving the other half for the remaining 95% of America.

Anyone know how many Asian Jews attend Harvard? Boy, wouldn't that screw up his argument!
 
NOT ANOTHER AA THREAD AHHHHHHHH :p , i know some black jews....how many points do they get?
 
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i'm disadvantaged because I am short. will you let me into med school because there is a shortage of short people in med school? I've been discriminated against at amusement parks that have a height requirement. boo.

(plz do not flame me, this is a joke :p )
 
Not again ! :rolleyes:
 
I am sure that if you break it down, there are some Asians that are more represented than others too. When it comes down to it, every ethnic/geographic group is underrepresented, because there are always more qualified people (self-perceived or real) than slots. Affirmative Action is a political tool to earn votes and appease the more vocal groups, not a means to achieve a society of eqality.
 
Asians :thumbdown:
Jews :thumbdown:

Just in it for the money... (flame away)
 
dnelsen said:
Asians :thumbdown:
Jews :thumbdown:

Just in it for the money... (flame away)

just in what for the money? education? I'm not asian or jewish, and I'm into education just for the money.....I turned down a satisfying career at walmart to go to college/med school....i'm such a sell out :thumbdown: :(
 
I am not here to flame anybody. I am a first generation American while my parents and relatives migrated here from China. I guess you could say that I was made in America with foreign parts. Anyway, my father is the youngest of nine siblings with each of his siblings bearing 2 children including himself. That makes 16 cousins not including my sister and myself. Of the 16: all went to Ivy league schools, 9 went to medical school, 2 went to law school, and 1 went to Wharton and is currently working at Goldman Sachs.
Was it for the money? Absolutely. As well as for the prestige, social status, etc. Ever since I was little I could hear my father, grandfather, uncles, aunts, cousins, whoever, say, "One day my son you will go to medical school and become a doctor." All of my relatives are extremely well educated and I am going to attribute it to the immigrant mentality to seize the abundance of educational opportunities that exist within this great country. My father (a very Asian man) is confounded that people who come from affluent families will then go and become elementary school teachers. I guess Asians just have the idea that if you can go for the big bucks and prestige and have the ability to then you should, regardless of whether or not you like it.
So yeah, to an extent it is for the money. Not here to flame anybody just offering an observation. All comments are welcome. If you think I am out of line or have a different observation feel free to submit it.
 
AznDoc said:
Was it for the money? Absolutely. As well as for the prestige, social status, etc. I guess Asians just have the idea that if you can go for the big bucks and prestige and have the ability to then you should, regardless of whether or not you like it.

So yeah, to an extent it is for the money. Not here to flame anybody just offering an observation. All comments are welcome. If you think I am out of line or have a different observation feel free to submit it.

Finally someone honest. I think this same thing can be said for most Jewish families.

Notice nowhere in your post did you mention anything about altruism, helping your fellow man, making a difference...

I don't think Asians or Jews are bad people, it is simply a cultural value that is instilled in them from a young age: "Be successful, make lots of money, be important"
 
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dnelsen said:
I don't think Asians or Jews are bad people, it is simply a cultural value that is instilled in them from a young age: "Be successful, make lots of money, be important"

White families want their children to do all they can to be successful, make lots of money and be important too, you know??
 
of course people (all people not just asians and jews) go into medicine with money as a factor....but i cant imagine money being the sole reason for entering this kind of profession....it isnt so glorious standing over a dead person or watching kids die. there must be some reason that people chose medicine over law, business, engineering, archeticture etc....i dont think its the money.

as for the asian mentality...you have to realize that there are billions of people in asia, and not that many jobs for everyone single person....so people study, go to school to get ahead...cause if i dont go get a education or trade, someone else will and i'll be left in the dust....its highly competitive and unfortunately, marks is all that matters over there. thats the survival mentality has come over here too with the immigrants.
 
Misty said:
White families want their children to do all they can to be successful, make lots of money and be important too, you know??

true...but its, i don't know, differnent. Just personal observation, I've never heard the parents of any of my asian or jewish friends say, "we love you no matter what you choose to do"....well, actually I guess they do say that, but they seem to assume that your choice is between doctor, lawyer, dentist, buisness, other professional, etc...

I don't really think its a bad thing...actually I can kind of relate to the mentality...
 
the difference is that white people see success coming from finding your passions and doing what you want to do in life and succeeding in it, whether its making cakes a la martha stewart or designing clothes, whereas asians see success coming from education and marks. i also think its because asians arent risk takers and isnt willing to put all of their heart and soul into doing something and having the chance of not succeeding.....education is the safe road to success.
 
dnelsen said:
Notice nowhere in your post did you mention anything about altruism, helping your fellow man, making a difference...

And I see SO FEW white med students go into anesthesiology, radiology, dermatology, all for ALTRUISM instead of the high pay and short hours.

Grow up. Everybody wants to be suitably rewarded for what they put in, regardless of what their original reason for entering the profession is. If you can't compete with the big dogs, it is your own fault that you do Family Med in Duluth or rural Wisconsin.
 
tofurious said:
And I see SO FEW white med students go into anesthesiology, radiology, dermatology, all for ALTRUISM instead of the high pay and short hours.

Grow up. Everybody wants to be suitably rewarded for what they put in, regardless of what their original reason for entering the profession is. If you can't compete with the big dogs, it is your own fault that you do Family Med in Duluth or rural Wisconsin.

What does my post have to do with being immature? You could have the opinion that I was wrong or ignorant, but immature...well, you are just being a poopy head :mad:

I can compete just fine thank you. My point was and is that Asians choose the professions they choose for (in my opinion) shallow reasons.

So bite me :D
 
Damn, Dnelsen is working hard to get banned... :D

I admire someone that isnt afraid to share their non-PC sentiments, regardless of how I feel about them. :thumbup:
 
I definitely have to disagree that ALL Asians choose occupations for shallow reasons. Every cousin that I have that is a doctor told me to stay away from it when they were doing their internships and residencies. However, now that they are attendings/in private practice, they love what they do and they are compassionate and dedicated physicians.
I can only comment on my family because that is all I know, but my parents want my sister and me to do well and get a good occupation so that I can be better off than they are. In my father's mind, he didn't come to America without an education while working a job and night schooling until he eventually got his doctorate just so that I can become a plumber. And in no way am I trying to degrade plumbers and the work they do. But I do agree with a previous poster that my family is not into risk taking while hard work and good education yields results.
Good post so far. I like hearing what you guys think.
 
dnelsen said:
What does my post have to do with being immature? You could have the opinion that I was wrong or ignorant, but immature...well, you are just being a poopy head :mad:

I can compete just fine thank you. My point was and is that Asians choose the professions they choose for (in my opinion) shallow reasons.

So bite me :D

you are saying that my hopes of one day going back to vietnam to help post-traumatic stress disorder vietnamese veterans is shallow? well, plz tell me what isn't, i'll be interested in knowing
 
SanDiegoSOD said:
I admire someone that isnt afraid to share their non-PC sentiments, regardless of how I feel about them. :thumbup:

I definitely second that. It's good to hear a different opinion and from someone who isn't afraid to take it head on. Although there is something to be said for being tactful... :)
 
Quynh2007 said:
you are saying that my hopes of one day going back to vietnam to help post-traumatic stress disorder vietnamese veterans is shallow? well, plz tell me what isn't, i'll be interested in knowing


dnelson is just generalizing, im sure he'll give you props for that!
 
velocypedalist said:
just in what for the money? education? I'm not asian or jewish, and I'm into education just for the money.....I turned down a satisfying career at walmart to go to college/med school....i'm such a sell out :thumbdown: :(

The words "satifying career" and "walmart" should never be used in the same sentence unless the sentence is this:

"I left walmart for a more satisfying career"

(I apologize beforehand. I am member of a grocery union and its a known fact that all of these unions hate walmart. I get paid to hate on walmart.)
 
dnelsen said:
I don't think Asians or Jews are bad people, it is simply a cultural value that is instilled in them from a young age: "Be successful, make lots of money, be important"

if you truly believe that it is a cultural value to make money in the asian or jewish community, then you are sadly mistaken, along with being quite ignorant. These communities place a heavy amount of emphasis on success. Their success is measured by the types of jobs you have and the prestige that comes with it. Doctors, Lawyers, etc etc all fall under this "success" category. Money itself is not enough motivation for people to stick through Medical and Law School. It takes much more than that. 10years of hell from undergrad through residency before you even begin to see some sort of significant money. Very few doctors would make it if that was their only goal.

Furthermore, look into the many threads where about 90% of all posters on this site have said that if the medical profession did not make the money it does, then they wouldn't pursue this career. This applies to people of all ethnic groups, hispanics, blacks, white, brown, asian, etc etc. If you really care THAT much about just helping people, go find a nice 9-5 job in a hospital as a tech, then spend the rest of your free time helping people in a soup kitchen. Do not try to be all high and mighty just because the asian and jewish community place emphasis on success while you appear to say that non asian/jewish communities do not.
 
wends said:
dnelson is just generalizing, im sure he'll give you props for that!


right you are!

Of course I'm generalizing...there are going to be exceptions to the rule and there are going to be Asians that go into medicine, law, whatever for good reasons, but what I'm saying is that if you look at the occupations that Asians choose, you will see that they are disproportionately represented in high prestige and high pay jobs.

4 Ever said:
If you really care THAT much about just helping people, go find a nice 9-5 job in a hospital as a tech, then spend the rest of your free time helping people in a soup kitchen.

I don't see many Asians working as JUST hospital techs and volunteering their spare time. Give me a break...


Ok, I guess I'm going to have to do it:

I officially pronounce the following: "It is a value in the Asian culture instilled in their children that they get an education and get a job in a high prestige field"

This is fact, you cannot refute it.


Does this make Asians bad people? OF COURSE NOT! I don't know why people take this as such an attack. I feel bad for the young Asian boy/girl that has dreams of being an artist but is forced by his/her parents to go to pharmacy school. Not being able to follow your dreams would suck!

Do it because you are passionate about it, and because it is what you want to do, not because your family wants you to or because you think it will get you some sort of respect/honor.
 
SanDiegoSOD said:
Damn, Dnelsen is working hard to get banned... :D

I admire someone that isnt afraid to share their non-PC sentiments, regardless of how I feel about them. :thumbup:


No way I would get banned. I'm not attacking anyone personally, and what I'm saying is only offending some because there is truth to it.
 
dnelsen said:
Asians :thumbdown:
Jews :thumbdown:

Just in it for the money... (flame away)

Are you trying to say that its ONLY the asians and jews that want a successful career for money? Seems a bit ridiculous to me...
 
dnelsen said:
right you are!

Of course I'm generalizing...there are going to be exceptions to the rule and there are going to be Asians that go into medicine, law, whatever for good reasons, but what I'm saying is that if you look at the occupations that Asians choose, you will see that they are disproportionately represented in high prestige and high pay jobs.

you forgot the jobs nobody wants, like sewing in a factory from 8am to 12pm 6 days a week, smelling acetone and nail polish in nail salons (me personally for 2 years while in hs), while still sending money back to their home country and trying to live in a garage with one bed. of course a lot of these parents will want their kids to succeed. who in their right mind would want to have their kids do this kind of work when they are grown up? ppl who work in sweatshops in refugee camps want the opposite of these sweatshops, and they just happen to be high prestige high paying jobs. when you are living at the bottom, you want your kids to be at the top.
 
dnelsen said:
right you are!

what I'm saying is that if you look at the occupations that Asians choose, you will see that they are disproportionately represented in high prestige and high pay jobs.

Yes, and they are underrepresented in Sports and Music. Do you see any AA occuring in those fields?

dnelsen said:
I don't see many Asians working as JUST hospital techs and volunteering their spare time. Give me a break...

Yes, but like you said and like I have said, its more than just helping people in those communities. You said so yourself that medicine should be about HELPING people. Well, you can help as a fire fighter, a policeman, a nurse, a tech ... why be a Doctor then?


dnelsen said:
I officially pronounce the following: "It is a value in the Asian culture instilled in their children that they get an education and get a job in a high prestige field"

This is fact, you cannot refute it.

lol you make it sound as if thats a bad thing. oh no, get an education and get a prestigeous job. God forbid that is something people strive for in this world. You are arguing against a culture which has those core values. Just because those cultures dont have the same ideals as your culture, doesn't mean that they are backwards in their thinking. Furthermore, asians and jews have proven to be quite successful BECAUSE of these core values. So is it a matter that they are successful and that youre jealous or that you think theyre holding a spot that you want?

dnelsen said:
I feel bad for the young Asian boy/girl that has dreams of being an artist but is forced by his/her parents to go to pharmacy school. Not being able to follow your dreams would suck!

Yes, and some people in their community are thinking "man i feel sorry for aspiring musicians, artists, athletes, actors that just arent good enough to afford the luxuries in life.

dnelsen said:
Do it because you are passionate about it, and because it is what you want to do, not because your family wants you to or because you think it will get you some sort of respect/honor.

I guess most asian and jewish doctors are then not passionate about their profession by your logic.
 
4 Ever said:
Yes, and they are underrepresented in Sports and Music. Do you see any AA occuring in those fields?

There should be.
 
no there shouldnt be AA in sports!! my god, its just entertainment. professional school is different from sports man, if y'all cant see that then man.... :rolleyes:
 
wends said:
no there shouldnt be AA in sports!! my god, its just entertainment. professional school is different from sports man, if y'all cant see that then man.... :rolleyes:

No its not - How many asians/jews are good at sports? How many of them get scholarships and round 1 draft picks? very few. Because sports is based on the skill of the athlete. Medical school used to be based on the abilities of the applicant, but theres AA here now isnt there? In fact, I think its more important to look at the abilities of the individual and not the ethnic background BECAUSE you are dealing with human lives. "if y'all cant see tha then man.... :rolleyes:"

Its funny how AA is okay when it works for you but not okay if it doesnt
 
Personally, I disagree with affirmative action. There definitely was a time when it was needed but that time has passed (for the most part). I believe that an applicant for a job, med/law/b-school should be selected because of their abilities and not their race and ethnic background. Especially in a field where people's lives are at stake you want the very best, not the second best to "increase diversity". I mean you don't see the Boston Red Sox taking any second rate asians just to increase the diversity for their bullpen, and it definitely shouldn't apply in a medical setting where the responsibility for one's actions are so much more important in magnitude. Is diversity a good thing? Absolutely! But should the quality of the applicant be sacrificed for that diversity? I am going to disagree there. Everything that is worthwhile should be worked for and worked for hard. I, and many others, am/are willing to put the time in to make myself the most qualified and well-rounded applicant that I can be and I don't want a seat at a med school because of my race but because I am a student that is capable of handling the academic rigors as well as possessing the maturity that is required to be a confident, competent, and compassionate physician.
 
dnelsen said:
I feel bad for the young Asian boy/girl that has dreams of being an artist but is forced by his/her parents to go to pharmacy school. Not being able to follow your dreams would suck!

Sadly enough this happened to my Vietnamese friend. He wanted to become an engineer, but his parents pushed him into medicine. He was depressed for many months when they made the decision for him..poor guy :(.
 
i don't see many asians at football games or hockey games or baseball games

and a lot of them that do only do it because of gambling.

supply and demand :rolleyes:
 
wends said:
i also think its because asians arent risk takers...

Hahaha, one time I was in a largely caucasian area (90% at least) and I decided to visit the local casino. I walked in and guess what I saw, everyone was asian except for the dealers :laugh: :laugh:.

Asians are huge gamblers, how many asians do you know have family businesses? Ok, how many caucasians with family businesses?
 
gambling is gambling...but your career is different. im talking about how asians go down the straight and narrow when it comes to education.

and 4 ever, im against aa, it doesnt work for me, im asian so it might work against me, but to say that there should be aa in sports is just ridiculous. to stoop to that argument is shameful
 
wends said:
gambling is gambling...but your career is different. im talking about how asians go down the straight and narrow when it comes to education.

and 4 ever, im against aa, it doesnt work for me, im asian so it might work against me, but to say that there should be aa in sports is just ridiculous. to stoop to that argument is shameful

Its not stooping to any level. It is giving a counterpoint to what you believed. Furthermore, why is it ridiculous for AA to be in sports? How many asians/south asians/jews do you see in sports? Its for entertainment? thats okay for it to not be diverse? But in a field where lives are at stake, then the credentials of highly qualified applicants need to take a backseat because of their ethnic background is ludicrous. That was the logic used for AA in the medical field so I don't see the shame in applying it elsewhere. I agree that there should be a more equal representation of ethnicities in the field of medicine but doing it through AA isn't (IMO) the proper way. the best way is for groups of other ethnicities to crank out those 3.8GPAs and their 34+MCAT scores and get rid of the bull**** statements like "you got in because of the color of your skin" - It should be that they got in because THEY DESERVE IT and anyone with great stats deserves it, regardless of their skin color.

Bill Cosby said it himself that generally kids in the african community focus more on sports or the get rich quick schemes and forget about working hard. The same hardwork that their parents put in. They can blame genetics all they want, but they have the same potential to do well if they work hard. Thats the biggest variable. Furthermore, according to "America: Behind the colored lines" the author interviewed a bunch of black kids and asked what it was to be white. "to get good grades, to respect others" is what they came up with. How sad is it that some hardworking african kid has to deal with his peers making fun of him for "being white" because he gets A's or is respectful? Those issues need to be dealt with and then the field of medicine will become diverse on its own. Asians afterall havent been in this country for more than 2generations (generally) and have managed to get the grades the caucasian students are doing and i have no doubt that if all the stigmas attached with being smart for URM's are extinguished, then they too will be equally represented.
 
yo man chill, i totally agree with what bill cosby says, i said i am against aa, but putting the aa analogy to sports to me is just ridiculous, thats my opinion, so bite me (not too hard please :p )
 
HOw about 3.15 sci 3.4 non sci and a 24 MCAT with LOTS of experience as medical assistant and research. (I am traditional)
-taj
 
wends said:
yo man chill, i totally agree with what bill cosby says, i said i am against aa, but putting the aa analogy to sports to me is just ridiculous, thats my opinion, so bite me (not too hard please :p )

Define "not too hard" :smuggrin:
 
no teeth marks ..... :thumbup:
 
Asians, Jews and whites are inferior. They are inferior at providing the benefits of diversity (the educational benefits that flow from them to other students). Persons of these inferior races certainly can not make "classroom discussions livelier, more spirited, and simply more enlightening and interesting." And they certainly don't help their fellow students to be better persons and better professionals. Only persons of superior races can do these things.

I used to think no race was superior to another but O'Connor changed my mind. I know it is difficult, but please just accept the fact, as I have, that your race is inferior.
 
I remember back in my American Government class when we were having discussion:

I asked if white people can add to diversity.

Everyone just sat there and didn't say a thing........except for the only black guy who almost immediately laughed and exclaimed "Hell nah".

Just an anecdote but it's relevant.

The conversation quickly rolled back into a Republican vs. Democrat wankfest.
 
Ryo-Ohki said:
O'Connor is right. Please just accept the fact that your race is inferior.

By saying "your" race you have signified that you in fact do not belong to either of those groups. In which case, flame on and we'll see how fast the ban wagon picks you up.
 
Ryo-Ohki said:
Asians, Jews and whites are inferior. They are inferior at providing the benefits of diversity (the educational benefits that flow from them to other students). Persons of these inferior races certainly can not make "classroom discussions livelier, more spirited, and simply more enlightening and interesting." And they certainly don't help their fellow students to be better persons and better professionals. Only persons of superior races can do these things.

I used to think no race was superior to another but O'Connor changed my mind. Please just accept the fact, as I have, that your race is inferior.

Wow, did you think of that ALL BY YOURSELF???

You get a gold star....
 
everyone knows that diversity was an old, old wooden ship used in the Civil War era....read the sig
 
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