What ever happened to good ole courtesy

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yobabydoc

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Okay,

So I noticed tha the surgery resident at the place where I am doing my medicine rotation are really rude and never smile. I got on the elevator one morning and it was full of surgery residents and so courtesy says you say good morning. No one answered. I repeated good mornng and was able to get a few grmbles out. Of course I do not take this personally. But since I am going into surgery or rather am seriously considering it I wanted to know why there was such a "blah" over the residents...so this morning I addressed one of the residents who I later found out was a chief resident...I asked him : Dr ___ do the surgery residents ever smile?' or something to that sort, it was a serious question, not judging...He gave me some brash answer and stormed out of the roo. I thought "dang" so later he comes back and threatens me that I better stay out of his way otherwise I will get in trouble. SO after mI get over the shock, I wonder exactly what kind of trouble I can get into if I do not stay out of his way, which I had no idea I was in to begin with!

I thought it was quite rude his response...is it acceptable for residents to go around respresenting their program like that? Feedback?
 
First rule of clinical rotations as a student.... Never speak until spoken to 😉

Seriously though, it doesn't say much for the hospital/programme. Courtesy costs nothing! God only knows how they treated the patients (on a personal level that is...)
 
I agree that it is rude, but turn the situation around and see how irritated you might have been. You are really stressed out, have a few exams in the next week, are really tired, physically/mentally worn out. Then, some bubbly pre-med or other non-medical type who looks full of energy bounces up when you are already on your last nerve and says, "hey, don't med students ever smile". I think that would be the last straw and I would snap too. Maybe this wasn't the best way to approach them.
 
Residents say that medical students are cocky and vice versa. I think most of the time, we don't actually smile either because we've just been given an earful or just don't feel like it. Residents may think that they are superior to smile at lowly medical students

But about surgeons..I don't know many of them who smile on a regular basis 😛
It's just a few who do, and they are really really nice, and even if they screw you up, they do it nicely.
 
Put yourself in the surgeon's shoes. Some med student you've never seen before comes up to you and asks if surgeons ever smile. There's absolutely no way to ask that question and come off as sincere. Maybe if you know the surgeon and have built rapport with him, but not out of the blue. I'm not justifying his response, but I see where it comes from.
 
I agree it can come off as kind of condescending....its best to ease into meeting people...and remember 1st impressions mean everything. I am sure your question was sincere...but it was out of line...and having spent my 3yr year in MI.....I would really becareful how you present yourself....esp to a potential residency interest....
 
Jaded Soul said:
Put yourself in the surgeon's shoes. Some med student you've never seen before comes up to you and asks if surgeons ever smile.
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Some idiot actually did that??!! 😛
 
not only is the resident's behavior acceptable, but it is ENCOURAGED. I would have done the same if I were in his place. Med students can be REALLY annoying, so if you're NOT, they will like you.
 
doc05 said:
not only is the resident's behavior acceptable, but it is ENCOURAGED. I would have done the same if I were in his place. Med students can be REALLY annoying, so if you're NOT, they will like you.
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Give me a break. This kind of behavior is reprehensible it is not acceptable and it is certainly not encouraged at our medical school. If you are that arrogant you need to get over yourself. Part of the job of a resident is to teach that "annoying" medical student. It sounds to me like there are some serious maturity issues going on.
 
doc05 said:
not only is the resident's behavior acceptable, but it is ENCOURAGED. I would have done the same if I were in his place. Med students can be REALLY annoying, so if you're NOT, they will like you.
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Yeah Right !... Give me a break. Remember that these Residents were also Med students before and you would think that they would understand more then anyone else. As we all know that just getting in a Med school is hard enough, never mind the first two years, smelleys, etc... so you DESERVE to be here and shouldn't be treated like this. Yes we are all stressed out.. so is the whole world..... if you keep asking questions and show intrest, you become "annoying" .. if you don't ask and stay out of their way, then you are not 'showing intrest' .... so what gives ? !...
 
I despise it when people tell me to smile. I have a genetically predisposed mad look on my face. I'm all about manners and good mornings, but I sure as hell don't get in people's face about it. If someone doesen't say good morning back, I move on with my day.
 
DrMaryC said:
I despise it when people tell me to smile. I have a genetically predisposed mad look on my face. I'm all about manners and good mornings, but I sure as hell don't get in people's face about it. If someone doesen't say good morning back, I move on with my day.
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But we love you ANYWAY, Mary. Now, come on give us a big smile!! 🙂
 
BamaAlum said:
But we love you ANYWAY, Mary. Now, come on give us a big smile!! 🙂
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I smile when I think of the riots that people like you are trying to insight in the national disaster area of Ft Myers. 🙂
 
kornphan said:
if you keep asking questions and show intrest, you become "annoying" .. if you don't ask and stay out of their way, then you are not 'showing intrest' .... so what gives ? !...
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It's social skills, plain and simple. An annoying med student doesn't know WHEN to "show interest" and when to shut the f*** up. It's all about having some intuition....knowing the APPROPRIATE time to ask a question and "show your internest."

And...to the OP who asked the chief resident why they didn't smile....bad move...really bad move. Nice way to make a name for yourself! Way to make a first impression! All those surgeons pretty much hate you now. I've seen so many students crash and burn on rotation by pulling similar stunts....people who just don't "get it."

Luckily for me, I was in the Marines for 6 years, and therefore do "get it." For those of you who don't, here's the scoop: Medicine is a heirarchy. Whether you like that or not, that's a fact. If you accept it, and work appropriately within those boundries, you're golden. If you don't accept it, you'll do stupid crap like the OP did, and people will think you're a ***** (which is, more than likely, a false assumption).
 
Teufelhunden said:
Luckily for me, I was in the Marines for 6 years, and therefore do "get it." /QUOTE]

Thank You maybe there should be a requirement to join the Marines before going to Med School. !.. so we can all get used to bending over and taking it with a smile !..
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Wow, that's rude. They didn't ever bothered to reply... No matter how tired I'll be as a resident, I promise to myself to not become that weird.
 
kornphan said:
Teufelhunden said:
Luckily for me, I was in the Marines for 6 years, and therefore do "get it." /QUOTE]

Thank You maybe there should be a requirement to join the Marines before going to Med School. !.. so we can all get used to bending over and taking it with a smile !..
Click to expand...

Yeah, okay...sarcasm detected and appreciated. I certainly don't mean that the only way you could "get it" would be from having served in the Corps. Fact is, most people do get it, for whatever reason. I see a general trend where older students who had previously worked in other professions do seem to fair better in their interactions with residents/staff/attendings. It's no surprise that some young, traditional med students who never held a real job have a harder time adapting. Again, I'm generalizing as there are many exceptions to this.

Listen, for some people it's just innate. Some people can walk into a room and "feel tension," while others can't. Social skills are sometimes very subtle, and involve interpreting body language and other non-verbal clues. A majority of people who walked into that elevator full of surgeons would have probably "felt" that making such a comment (as the OP did) would be inappropriate. Tact is very often situation dependent. One thing I learned: When I doubt, shut up.

Again, I've seen some really bright med students crash and burn on rotation because they don't know when to speak and when to be quiet. For me, it's common sense. I've seen a student badger an attending in the OR to answer her questions...all along I'm watching this play out thinking to myself, "Shut up! Can't you tell you're aggrevating him?" Anyways, she couldn't tell. After she left the OR, the entire surgical staff berated her...joking with me that I needed to coach my classmate on OR ettiquite. Thing is, this classmate of mine was an extremely nice girl...very bright and enthusiastic....she just had some seriously underdeveloped interpersonal communication skills.

BTW....any of you ever consider that these "rude" surgeons in the elevator maybe had just come from the OR where there was a bad outcome....maybe they just finished a case where the patient died....and some jacka$$ student asks "Why don't you guys smile more?"

Think about it.
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kornphan said:
Point well taken.. maybe we should all take this test ;-)

http://quizilla.com/users/vinacross/quizzes/What Kind of Smile are You?/

;-)
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Wow. I took your test. This is what I got:

You're the smirk,a frown-smile hybrid that's a little bit cocky and usually associated with evil or arrogant,but attractive people.You probably just don't give a damn,but it's everyone else's fault if you don't because you're too awesome to have any real faults.

I can't really argue with any of this! Who am I to question such a scientific assesment? It's amazing, that from a few simple questons, they'd know how really good looking I am!
😉
 
Teufelhunden said:
Yeah, okay...sarcasm detected and appreciated. I certainly don't mean that the only way you could "get it" would be from having served in the Corps. Fact is, most people do get it, for whatever reason. I see a general trend where older students who had previously worked in other professions do seem to fair better in their interactions with residents/staff/attendings. It's no surprise that some young, traditional med students who never held a real job have a harder time adapting. Again, I'm generalizing as there are many exceptions to this.
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Point taken about people who have not had jobs, they often are obnoxious and act entitled without much tact.


And to the ***** who annoyed residents in the elevator and the chief, may i suggest a quick head nod if you feel strangely compelled to acknowledge everyone you come acrosss on an elevator
 
But, isn't this a vicious cycle thingy? A med student who was critized severely, will someday become a resident who screws his/her medical students.

We see it all the time here, oh yah, and one more fact, most residents who love to screw us, were really dumb arses when they were in med school. Even here, we have med students who are so cocky and they are already screwing up junior students, they are as dumb as bollocks and fail their exams as often as I pee :laugh:
 
ericdamiansean said:
But, isn't this a vicious cycle thingy? A med student who was critized severely, will someday become a resident who screws his/her medical students.
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No. It shouldn't be this way. If, when you're a medical student, a resident/attending/whoever treats you in a certain way, and you think, "Damn, that's fcuked up." Fast forward years later when you're a resident, and your opinion about that same f'ed up behavior should be the same. Nothing is worse than continuing a cycle of behavior that you know is wrong.

I used to see this attitude in the Marine Corps. Privates and Lance Corporals would bitch about the way NCOs would treat them. Then years later, after they made Corporal, they would behave the exact same way. I was the opposite. When I finally made some rank, I treated people the way I would have liked to be treated when I was in their shoes. If you care about an organization...whether it be the Marine Corps, or the academic medicine environment...I feel you have the obligation to take it upon yourself to have the fortitude to change YOUR behavior and set a NEW example for those below you.

One basic tenet I learned in the Corps...first line of the Band of Brothers:

All Marines are entitled to dignity and respect as individuals, but must abide by common standards established by proper authority.

I think that says a lot. Even though people must work within the boundries of their environment, i.e. must be respectful of the hierarchy....everyone is still entitled to be treated with dignity and respect.
 
Why does everyone only point out how rude the resident was? You don't think its rude to walk up to somebody you don't know and say "Don't you ever smile?" I think that this is equally rude.
 
Harrie said:
Why does everyone only point out how rude the resident was? You don't think its rude to walk up to somebody you don't know and say "Don't you ever smile?" I think that this is equally rude.
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I'm not sure it was rude, but perhaps rather insensitive. Semantics, I guess.

As noted above, you need to be able to read people's emotions. Right time and place, right type of person. I have patients I can joke with, and there are times when I know its not appropriate. There are other patients with whom a joke would almost never go over well.

This coming from someone who is a surgery resident AND (based on above quiz link): "You're the cheerful smile,the one that's truly happy with almost everything you do and would never change your life."
 
Harrie said:
Why does everyone only point out how rude the resident was? You don't think its rude to walk up to somebody you don't know and say "Don't you ever smile?" I think that this is equally rude.
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yes, that's 100% rude, but that bugger's an idiot 😛
 
All opinions are well taken. The fact of the matter is, this resident assumed that he was talking to some insignificant and as one of the respondents said "jacka$$" student but he was not or maybe he was. I have no problem with that 😀 Folks just need to lighten up and quit being so doggone "important"! My relationship with the hospital staff from Board of Directors down to the environmental services is very good and that is because of respect for everyone regardless of their position in life...you never know who is who in this world anymore. The context of the questioning was not inappropriate nor was it annoying nor was there a situation where the resident was talking to a complete stranger. I can think of a few better ways for him ,as the one higher on the hierarchy, to have better handled the question. Our problem is we fail to realize that the higher up you get the lower you should position yourself. Title and prestige is no excuse for arrogance. Remember medicine is a serving profession, we are being trained to serve humanity, so we should probably practice letting go of our egos now....
 
Harrie it would be rude if that is how it happened but that not quite the context at all.
 
Frankly, I've never understood why some people feel compelled to say "good morning" to everyone they pass. I don't understand why, when I am walking in the hallway, or in the elevator, or whatever, going over in my mind things that need to be done (or thinking similar thoughts), and I pass someone who I've never seen before and don't know, and that person intrudes on my thinking with "good morning" why should I be expected to answer? y

if you are the type who feels compelled to say good morning to everyone you pass, if they don't answer LET IT GO!!! There are many reasons people don't want to answer, few of which have to do with being rude. Asking someone why they never smile (or why their category of people never smile, as in surgery residents) is VERY rude!!

I also a person whose neutral expression includes a slight downturn of the corners of my mouth. I am so sick of people telling me to smile, or telling me I look upset or whatever, that I feel like I have to restrain myself from smacking people when they say that. People aren't obliged to walk around smiling. Surgery residents are no different. We are people. We smile, we laugh, we have fun, we are serious, we have tough days and we are often dead tired and still have a ton of work to do when you see us in the hospital. And we are sick and tired of being steriotyped as being mean a$$h..les.

If it had been a group of neurology residents in the interaction described, would you have said "do neruology residents ever smile?" Radiology residents? Medicine residents? I don't think so. I bet the interpretation of the lack of response (and the poster's subsquent statement) was colored by fact that the lack of response came from surgery residents.

That said, the chief's response was certainly inapproprate. It's never approprate to threaten a student, no matter how inappropriate/annoying the student is. (and they can be very inappropriate and annoying!)
 
I've mastered the 'half smile/half leave me alone' facial expression. Too bad I can't post it up here 😳 this is not me

michigan_oriol.jpg
 
Maybe you have carp mouth syndrome?
Down turned smile........nerve lesion............
Booooo on you!
It is demanding to smile isnt it?
😀
I like this one.....
:clap:
 
😛
This one is cute, cept in real life, you look ******ed with your tongue hanging out while you're smiling :laugh:
 
:laugh:
I have seen my dog do that some times--> 😛
He looks so cute.......................................then I try to squeeze him and he growls :laugh: :scared:
 
JattMed said:
:laugh:
I have seen my dog do that some times--> 😛
He looks so cute.......................................then I try to squeeze him and he growls :laugh: :scared:
Click to expand...

You don't scare me you lil pup! 😛
9mayadog.jpg
 
Nice doggy.........nice doggy................ 😱
 
Teufelhunden said:
No. It shouldn't be this way. If, when you're a medical student, a resident/attending/whoever treats you in a certain way, and you think, "Damn, that's ****ed up." Fast forward years later when you're a resident, and your opinion about that same f'ed up behavior should be the same. Nothing is worse than continuing a cycle of behavior that you know is wrong.

As a Private practice physician (Family Practice not Surgery) as well as a teaching Physician Preceptor for medical students, As well as An Airforce Flight Surgeon. I can say that during internship and residency I experienced my share of inappropriate behavior from both residents and attendings.

I teach a course on disruptive physician for a risk management course and now our hospital has teaching classes for (disruptive behavior in physicians) Not that all physicians need teaching on this, however, realize that is a MEDICAL STUDENT ( you all were one at one time) and you all are either Attendings or Residents. and your JOB is also TEACHING...

Once you recognize that the student made a huge blunder, don't propagate the behavior and don't destroy the student and continue the Sh%T runs downhill game...TEACH... Take the student aside and explain to he/she what is wrong with the approach..

If the student knew he/she did something wrong ,do you think that they would do it?? They are students, most of us as students are scared on a minute to minute basis and have odd ways to vent that fear... Saying hello and needing someone to recognize they exist is probably the first thing...

If you all have this sage advice from years of wisdom then pass it on...

the most important thing a 3rd year resident told me on my first day of internshsip was " It takes years to gain years of experience" And I live by that motto even 20 years later...

I TEACH and make sure when something happens, even if it is something stupid I try to explain the reason instead of just threatening pain and torture. 😱

Doing something Verbally Dumb and lack of people skills can be fixed if the time is taken to teach or recommend a good people skills book etc.. This is so incredibly minor to a negative outcome in the surgical suite, or in the office that I would welcome some dumb,naive medical students asking me a question in a bad way then to face any real live patient negative outcome....Period...

Where have all the quality teachers gone? :idea:
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Those residents seem like a bunch of pu55ies.

If you're going to be grumpy and ill-tempered to all that you meet, even "lowly medical students", because you're working too hard or were chewed out or whatever, then you should not have gone into surgery. Or, you could quit - nobody's forcing you to be a surgeon.

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. I don't care if your life is hard. Suck it up and deal with it on your own time. Don't make everyone miserable around you because you are miserable.

Donald Trump says it best(and he rarely says anything of value): having ONE bad attitude in a group ruins the group. If they're all like that, then they've been ruined.
 
Last edited:
If it makes you feel any better... maybe they're all just holding in a fart since they can't fart in the OR. 😉 LOL Just thought I would make you laugh... I hope.. Too much stress, not enough laughter.

yobabydoc said:
Okay,

So I noticed tha the surgery resident at the place where I am doing my medicine rotation are really rude and never smile. I got on the elevator one morning and it was full of surgery residents and so courtesy says you say good morning. No one answered. I repeated good mornng and was able to get a few grmbles out. Of course I do not take this personally. But since I am going into surgery or rather am seriously considering it I wanted to know why there was such a "blah" over the residents...so this morning I addressed one of the residents who I later found out was a chief resident...I asked him : Dr ___ do the surgery residents ever smile?' or something to that sort, it was a serious question, not judging...He gave me some brash answer and stormed out of the roo. I thought "dang" so later he comes back and threatens me that I better stay out of his way otherwise I will get in trouble. SO after mI get over the shock, I wonder exactly what kind of trouble I can get into if I do not stay out of his way, which I had no idea I was in to begin with!

I thought it was quite rude his response...is it acceptable for residents to go around respresenting their program like that? Feedback?
Click to expand...
 
Substance said:
Those residents seem like a bunch of pu55ies.

If you're going to be grumpy and ill-tempered to all that you meet, even "lowly medical students", because you're working too hard or were chewed out or whatever, then you should not have gone into surgery. Or, you could quit - nobody's forcing you to be a surgeon.

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. I don't care if your life is hard. Suck it up and deal with it on your own time. Don't make everyone miserable around you because you are miserable.

Donald Trump says it best(and he rarely says anything of value): having ONE bad attitude in a group ruins the group. If they're all like that, then they've been ruined.
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with wanting your own personal space, either, especially after a long night on the job.
 
greatnt249 said:
There's nothing wrong with wanting your own personal space, either, especially after a long night on the job.
Click to expand...

Then ask for it. Be open about it. Don't act like a jerk if someone is trying to be nice. People can't read minds.
 
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