affirmative action

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ana_counselor

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Back in 2003 the Supreme Court ruled in favor for "affirmative action" in medical school acceptance policies to help diversify the medical community. I know that UCDavis Veterinary Medical School has a Veterinary Medical Opportunity Program specifically for this, and has a different application form aside from the required VMCAS general form (the AMCAS counterpart for veterinary field). Does anyone know of any medical schools that have a similar application process? Thanks and good luck to everyone! :)

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Back in 2003 the Supreme Court ruled against AA in terms of quotas or anything like quotas (i.e. getting 50 billion points for being the right color).

I hate it when nubs (nubs being anyone who does this) quotes only half of that ruling. The ruling said that:

Quotas were unconstitutional and racist.
The basic idea of AA fell in line with the constitution.

BTW, both cases (there were 2 cases) were at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. The quota system was with their undergraduate program. The overall "Can we use AA in admissions?" ruling was with their law school. No med school was involved.
 
The book "Getting into Medical School" has a breakdown of Average MCAT Scores by Race. According to these figures, White and Asian applicants have the highest average scores (30ish+) while black applicants have the lowest average scores (around 21).

(the above is offered without further commentary on my part...make of it what you will.)
 
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Here we go again...
 
Siggy said:
I hate it when nubs (nubs being anyone who does this) quotes only half of that ruling.

agreed. i hate when people only know half the facts, or less, and then try to use that info. as if they know what they're talking about.

as for the OP's question, i've never heard of any separate applications. you just mark the boxes for whatever race(s) you are, and that's it as far as i know.
 
yess....hehe...this should get juicy in about an hour! :laugh:
 
ana_counselor said:
Back in 2003 the Supreme Court ruled in favor for "affirmative action" in medical school acceptance policies to help diversify the medical community. I know that UCDavis Veterinary Medical School has a Veterinary Medical Opportunity Program specifically for this, and has a different application form aside from the required VMCAS general form (the AMCAS counterpart for veterinary field). Does anyone know of any medical schools that have a similar application process? Thanks and good luck to everyone! :)

As a previous poster said, you just need to state in your AMCAS or AACOMAS application that you're a member of an underrepresented group in medicine. Also, if you're unsuccessful in gaining acceptance, there are several programs available only to minorities to strengthen your application. Many med schools sponsor such programs, and the AAMC website also lists many good programs (http://www.aamc.org/diversity/initiatives.htm). Some med schools even have post-bacc programs for minorities with guaranteed acceptance if you achieve a minimum GPA.

Good luck! Medicine needs to be more diversified. Don't be too discouraged with all the talk about GPAs and MCATs...those don't make a good physician.

This subject has been discussed ad nauseum, and tempers usually flare quite easily. Get the information and run, run far away!
 
Shinken said:
Good luck! Medicine needs to be more diversified. Don't be too discouraged with all the talk about GPAs and MCATs...those don't make a good physician.


AMEN!!! So how do we get adcoms to realize this?
 
MedicineBird said:
AMEN!!! So how do we get adcoms to realize this?

I like your avatar :)
 
Shinken said:
Good luck! Medicine needs to be more diversified. Don't be too discouraged with all the talk about GPAs and MCATs...those don't make a good physician.

Please tell me how being the special color for the admissions game makes a canidate a better canidate where GPAs and MCATs would not. Is there anyway I can become the special color (like Michael Jackson in reverse)?
 
i also really like the avatar
 
Cat's Meow said:
I like your avatar :)

That IS a great avatar!

I need one with a dog looking at a mirror reflection of an arctic wolf...(cause I'm a dog person). :cool:
 
Siggy said:
Please tell me how being the special color for the admissions game makes a canidate a better canidate where GPAs and MCATs would not. Is there anyway I can become the special color (like Michael Jackson in reverse)?

Oh uh...

Let's not start on this, please :) because I want to :sleep: .
 
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Removed post to avoid controversy. Pity.
 
Shredder said:
What makes better medicine (or anything for that matter), a meritocracy or a wide variety of skin colors and backgrounds, whether qualified or not? If GPA and MCAT don't predict success as a physician (meaning brains don't play a factor), what does? This thread is going to get hot in a hurry.

Don't be throwing fuel on the fire! :scared: :eek: :scared: :eek: :scared:
 
I would throw some O2 onto the fire, but I don't think that very many people would come and play. I've already gone round after round with Cat. We both had good arguments for our respective sides, but it would be pointless to just rehash them now.
 
GPA and MCAT-though you may think they are- are not the absolutely definitive measure of becomming the best doctor in every community. And while your may feel that color is not good for anything in med school applications I would like to call to your attention 2 things.

1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

2. MCAT speicifically is a standardized test(standard meaning made up by "upper class white males" HAHA"). And while I scored in the 99% of SAT takers and will probably beat you on the MCAT it does not mean that I am smarter or a better student than you. It means I just had access to resources and the culuture around me(being south asian culture) is a competetive one. Trust me man- there is nobody is as screwed as south asian males in med school applications. So chill the hell out.

Deal with it. This is actually affirmative action for men!!! Its true! Men get lower scores than females and get into the same schools as them!

Being a SOUTH ASIAN MALE(which I am) I am more screwed than you are so please stfu.
 
swifteagle43 said:
GPA and MCAT-though you may think they are- are not the absolutely definitive measure of becomming the best doctor in every community. And while your may feel that color is not good for anything in med school applications I would like to call to your attention 2 things.

1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

2. MCAT speicifically is a standardized test(standard meaning made up by "upper class white males" HAHA"). And while I scored in the 99% of SAT takers and will probably beat you on the MCAT it does not mean that I am smarter or a better student than you. It means I just had access to resources and the culuture around me(being south asian culture) is a competetive one. Trust me man- there is nobody is as screwed as south asian males in med school applications. So chill the hell out.

Deal with it. This is actually affirmative action for men!!! Its true! Men get lower scores than females and get into the same schools as them! Being a SOUTH ASIAN MALE(which I am) I am more screwed than you are so please stfu.

i mostly agree with you. the other poster who said that they just wanted to change color...well um...there was this book that was made by the author who changed his skin from white to brown to see what it would be like...and he was very surprised by how demeaning it was. so before anyone opens their mouth about how easy it would be ..... think again.
 
swifteagle43 said:
GPA and MCAT-though you may think they are- are not the absolutely definitive measure of becomming the best doctor in every community. And while your may feel that color is not good for anything in med school applications I would like to call to your attention 2 things.

1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

2. MCAT speicifically is a standardized test(standard meaning made up by "upper class white males" HAHA"). And while I scored in the 99% of SAT takers and will probably beat you on the MCAT it does not mean that I am smarter or a better student than you. It means I just had access to resources and the culuture around me(being south asian culture) is a competetive one. Trust me man- there is nobody is as screwed as south asian males in med school applications. So chill the hell out.

Deal with it. This is actually affirmative action for men!!! Its true! Men get lower scores than females and get into the same schools as them! Being a SOUTH ASIAN MALE(which I am) I am more screwed than you are so please stfu.

agreed...is AA the perfect solution? No, But it is def the best solution right now. Nothing can be perfect
 
swifteagle43 said:
1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

Siggy or Shredder, you stood on someone head (I assume this fat hippo is talking to one of you)? Wa wa wa, your parents were educated and you won the lottery of life. White "icon", wtf. And the two of them only asked a questions...didn't even say anything.


swifteagle43 said:
2. MCAT speicifically is a standardized test(standard meaning made up by "upper class white males" HAHA"). And while I scored in the 99% of SAT takers and will probably beat you on the MCAT it does not mean that I am smarter or a better student than you. It means I just had access to resources and the culuture around me(being south asian culture) is a competetive one. Trust me man- there is nobody is as screwed as south asian males in med school applications. So chill the hell out.

You are delirious...who taught you this crap? You honestly believe that "upper class white" math or bio testing exists? SATs and MCATs are more of a measure of "resources and culture" than intellectual ability/knowledge? Why, then, do med schools and undergrad put so much weight on them. It's a system designed by white upper class to maintain power I bet. Congrats on your 99% on the SATs.

swifteagle43 said:
Deal with it. This is actually affirmative action for men!!! Its true! Men get lower scores than females and get into the same schools as them! Being a SOUTH ASIAN MALE(which I am) I am more screwed than you are so please stfu.

I'm a south asian male too, i never felt "screwed". It may be more competitive, but so what. Sorry, I meant to say SOUTH ASIAN MALE. And cut it out with the caps/bolds/font size, you do that alot and I hate the sound of your SOUTH ASIAN voice, it whiny enough. :cool:
 
flash said:
Siggy or Shredder, you stood on someone head (I assume this fat hippo is talking to one of you)? Wa wa wa, your parents were educated and you won the lottery of life. White "icon", wtf. And the two of them only asked a questions...didn't even say anything.


You are delirious...who taught you this crap? You honestly believe that "upper class white" math or bio testing exists? SATs and MCATs are more of a measure of "resources and culture" than intellectual ability/knowledge? Why, then, do med schools and undergrad put so much weight on them. It's a system designed by white upper class to maintain power I bet. Congrats on your 99% on the SATs.



I'm a south asian male too, i never felt "screwed". It may be more competitive, but so what. Sorry, I meant to say SOUTH ASIAN MALE. And cut it out with the caps/bolds/font size, you do that alot and I hate the sound of your SOUTH ASIAN voice, it whiny enough. :cool:

I do not know if you are just incompetent or emotionally charged but you have failed to make any case against affirmative action.

Why, then, do med schools and undergrad put so much weight on them.

I do not know if you are a ***** or fail to realize what I said but MCATs are used as a general measure of comparison of academics between schools but are a poor indicator of individuals as a whole(especially students of color). This is especially true under culture circumstantial events such as growing up in a poor ghetto neighborhood.

White "icon", wtf.

Desis have a LOT of doctor icons to look upto. Either you are clearly a white dude posing to be an indian guy to hold some water or you are a total idiot. We have sooooo many doctor icons to look up to in our community. That is why so many of us become doctors. White people have the same thing but some cultures do not have that many doctors due to their previous circumstances.

You are delirious...who taught you this crap? You honestly believe that "upper class white" math or bio testing exists?

Look at testing companies like the ETS(education testing service). I don't find too many people of color helping develop it.


White "icon", wtf. And the two of them only asked a questions...didn't even say anything.

I can ask you questions too:
Are you a ******?
Do you think ******s like you should be in med school?
Do you sleep with your dog?

....see these questions imply something....that you are a ****** who shouldn't be in med school cause you have an affinity for animals :smuggrin:
 
swifteagle43 said:
I do not know if you are just incompetent or emotionally charged but you have failed to make any case against affirmative action.
I do not know if you are a *****...
I can ask you questions too:
Are you a ******?
Do you think ******s like you should be in med school?
Do you sleep with your dog?
....see these questions imply something....that you are a ****** who shouldn't be in med school cause you have an affinity for animals :smuggrin:
this coming from a guy who was asking if he should change schools for a .1 change in his GPA...and who couldnt understand how people who werent getting money spoonfed by their parents were paying for school...mmm?? :rolleyes: grow up kid
 
Siggy said:
Is there anyway I can become the special color (like Michael Jackson in reverse)?

May I suggest acquiring a visible disability? It may not make you an URM, but it's much more do-able at this stage in your game (i.e. post-conception) and it'll give you some of that minority experience.
 
swifteagle43 said:
I can ask you questions too:
Are you a ******?
Do you think ******s like you should be in med school?
Do you sleep with your dog?

....see these questions imply something....that you are a ****** who shouldn't be in med school cause you have an affinity for animals :smuggrin:

and these questions add to the discussion how?? :confused:
 
swifteagle43 said:
1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

2. MCAT speicifically is a standardized test(standard meaning made up by "upper class white males" HAHA"). And while I scored in the 99% of SAT takers and will probably beat you on the MCAT it does not mean that I am smarter or a better student than you. It means I just had access to resources and the culuture around me(being south asian culture) is a competetive one. Trust me man- there is nobody is as screwed as south asian males in med school applications. So chill the hell out.

Deal with it. This is actually affirmative action for men!!! Its true! Men get lower scores than females and get into the same schools as them!


1. Sorry, my parents aren't that educated. My mom has an associates degree and my dad never graduated from college.

My mom had 2 strokes about 12 years ago while I was in grade school. I only remember one doctor by name and that was the surgon that put her trachea back together (she pulled out her trache tube when she was in the ICU). Strangly enough, I want to go into EM, not surgery so I would bet that he hasn't had that much of an influence on my choice of medicine.

My family is very middle class now, but we had some rough financial times including a bankrupcy when I was growing up (see above paragraph).

2. Please tell me how a test that takes material from classes that are the pre-requesits at 99.999% of the med schools a racist test. Is it too much to ask people to remember things from their chemsitry, bio, physics, and math classes? It still blows my mind how a standardized test can be racist. AA advocates needs to stop blaming society for every hurdle to school. I'm sick of these people (AA advocates) thinking everything is a reason. SAT, GPAs, MCAT, classes, tests, everything is racist to these people. BTW, do you agree that it should be harder for south-east Asians to get into medschool, or would you rather want a level playing field that was not decided by something as arbitary (in terms of the admissions game) as where your ancestors comes from.


BTW, I believe that it is wrong if there is a systematic error (AA really is an error in the admissions process) with admissions if men get in with lower scores then females.

Furthermore, if not trying to engage other canidates in thoughful debate (btw, engageing in though ful debate with some people in here is like trying to travel through hell without getting burned) is not "deal[ing] with it," then I don't know what is. I do know that I refuse to roll over and take it when I can attempt to change peoples opinions on it. I think people like you who thinks that I should just "deal with it" by shuting up are just elitist liberal pigs.
 
Siggy said:
2. Please tell me how a test that takes material from classes that are the pre-requesits at 99.999% of the med schools a racist test. Is it too much to ask people to remember things from their chemsitry, bio, physics, and math classes? It still blows my mind how a standardized test can be racist. AA advocates needs to stop blaming society for every hurdle to school. I'm sick of these people (AA advocates) thinking everything is a reason. SAT, GPAs, MCAT, classes, tests, everything is racist to these people.

BTW, I believe that it is wrong if there is a systematic error (AA really is an error in the admissions process) with admissions if men get in with lower scores then females.

Furthermore, if not trying to engage other canidates in thoughful debate (btw, engageing in though ful debate with some people in here is like trying to travel through hell without getting burned) is not "deal[ing] with it," then I don't know what is. I do know that I refuse to roll over and take it when I can attempt to change peoples opinions on it. I think people like you who thinks that I should just "deal with it" by shuting up are just elitist liberal pigs.

Back up Back up. Lets get a few things straight:

I am sorry to hear about you family and your hard times. I am sure you WILL get special consideration once you write your story in the essay you give for college.

I never said the TEST was UNFAIR!! I said it was made up by people who are not from similar backgrounds. Women also perform bad on things like the SAT because it is designed from the male mind perspective.

BTW, do you agree that it should be harder for south-east Asians to get into medschool, or would you rather want a level playing field that was not decided by something as arbitary (in terms of the admissions game) as where your ancestors comes from.

Thats a tricky question in two respects. Yes I understand YOUR specific frustration and YOUR difficult set of circumstances. And I am sure you will get specific consideration for these if you mention them in your essay.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most white applicants are not in YOUR situation! Am I frustrated by the fact that I need to score higher than even white applicants to get into a medical school? HELL YES! But-I am not upset over the fact because I realize that I also have certain advantages that I am blessed with and I am going to use them better than my counter parts.

A couple of things that you and I share are things like icons and networking to people in the medical social circle. I am sure you know or were inspired by a doctor and your parents know doctors on a personal level.

And your circle of friends(which will usually be white-exceptions in some cases) might also have access to resources that they can share with you.

I have access to my moms friends(who are doctors) and my dads friends(who are also doctors). I have a total of 7 doctors in my family and am fortunately blessed by this. And you will find most premed candidates that are gung-ho and do well also are blessed with atleast 1 or 2 doctors that they are close with. I also have cousins who all went to ivy league schools and my parents are highly educated. I am not the exception to the rule in south asian applicants! This goes for most asian/south applicants!

You will RARELY find this kind of situation in minority of other descent.

You brought up a good question: Should something arbitrary as where your ancestors came from matter in admissions?

Well-let me ask you this: Does it matter who your mom and dad is? Whether they are educated or not?

Ofcourse it does! Because it affects you directly and you identify with those people!

Now in the greater sense: Does it matter what race you are?
As you probably know our country of America has a shameful history with slavery. We deprived people of their freedom and kept them from being educated. Now- We have created a culture of people that is deprived of education. And the best way to rejuivinate education in these communities is to use AA.

I would like to make one point clear: Affirmative Action is a Band-Aid on the cuts that slavery left on the body of america. One day when the wound is almost healed the band-aid(AA) will be removed. The wound is not fully healed right now and therfore the bandaid should NOT be removed. As Pro-AA as I am right now I will like to see it gone by the year 2050(roughly 100 years after any real civil rights laws began to pass)
 
tinkerbelle said:
and these questions add to the discussion how?? :confused:

Earlier shreeder wrote:

Originally Posted by Shredder
What makes better medicine (or anything for that matter), a meritocracy or a wide variety of skin colors and backgrounds, whether qualified or not? If GPA and MCAT don't predict success as a physician (meaning brains don't play a factor), what does? This thread is going to get hot in a hurry.

That was a response to it.
 
swifteagle43 said:
Affirmative Action is a Band-Aid on the cuts that slavery left on the body of america.


Classic.

:laugh:
 
swifteagle43 said:
GPA and MCAT-though you may think they are- are not the absolutely definitive measure of becomming the best doctor in every community. And while your may feel that color is not good for anything in med school applications I would like to call to your attention 2 things.

1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!

B.S.

I'm white, my parents are not super educated - I grew up with my mother, who didn't graduate from HS, but does have some college credits she's pieced together, my mother has never gotten as high as middle class on the economy ladder, and I never had a white icon of a doctor until I was an adult. You're claiming all sorts of crap you've got no idea about.
 
AA, as public policy gets discussed a lot. The effects of it usually do not. And frankly, the effects of AA aren't as too terribly severe in many fields because what people do in those fields aren't a matter of life and death.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with medicine (the field I'm entering) and aviation (the field I'm leaving). In both these careers, when mistakes are made, people die. Neither field can afford the questionable competence of those who are let in by any standard other than that of merit. Do adcoms regularly disregard this and admit students based on varying levels of melanin or different plumbing? Of course - the statistics I posted at the start of this thread bear that out. Do airline HR departments do the same when they hire pilots? Unfortunately yes.

While such things may let white liberals feel good, it does a disservice to everyone else involved. Individuals who get ahead in life because standards have been relaxed end up finding themselves in environments that they aren't ready to handle.

United Airlines, for instance, took a very aggressive stand in hiring women in the 1980's. Typically, a pilot has to have around 3000-5000 hours of flight time, with a significant portion of that in jet or turbojet aircraft, to be competitive for major airline interviews. Unfortunately - just as there aren't thousands of black applicants with 30's on their MCATS - there weren't that many experienced women pilots around. So United did what medical school adcoms are doing - they hired whatever women they could get so long as they held pilot licences and had a few hundred hours of experience.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with experienced female pilots - just as there is nothing wrong with experienced male pilots. But United's approach - "we must have diversity" - led them to hire inexperienced female pilots who were not ready to do the job.

Typically after you are hired, you go through a month of ground school, a month of simulator training, and then are released to fly with "line check captains" for what is called "initial operating experience." Typically, this lasts for two weeks. United's quota hires - for this is what they were - got stuck in this IOE process. They couldn't be released to fly the line because the check captains realized that with no experience they were dangerous to passengers. They couldn't be fired because United would be sued.

...the other shoe: a friend of mine, a 727 driver for us, was returning home to Chicago from Saint Louis on a UAL 727 some years ago as our flight had left. It is pretty common procedure on the 727 to taxi on two engines to save fuel and start the third engine prior to takeoff. A multitude of checklists - plus plain simple observation - back you up on this so there's never an excuse to 'forget'. Anyhow, this is what this UAL - all female - flight deck crew did. They shoved up all three throttles for takeoff with engine #3 OFF. Needless to say my friend, ever the observant jumpseater, jumped out of his seat and pulled all three throttles back to idle. Had he not done so, he, and up to 125 people would be dead. Understand that this is a mistake that has never been made in the annals of NTSB investigation by an airline crew. It's so egregious, it woud be akin to a doctor walking into an ER and shooting, not treating, a patient.

Regardless of the philosophical justifications offered up for AA policies, they always end up working themselves out as quotas, and quotas have consequences. In medicine and aviation, the consequences are measured in terms of lives lost and this is why AA policies have no business being in either field of endeavor. As Ayn Rand said, "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

(By the way - I'm all for getting as many AA admissions into law schools as we can...we need more bad lawyers! ;) )
 
Old_Mil said:
AA, as public policy gets discussed a lot. The effects of it usually do not. And frankly, the effects of AA aren't as too terribly severe in many fields because what people do in those fields aren't a matter of life and death.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with medicine (the field I'm entering) and aviation (the field I'm leaving). In both these careers, when mistakes are made, people die. Neither field can afford the questionable competence of those who are let in by any standard other than that of merit. Do adcoms regularly disregard this and admit students based on varying levels of melanin or different plumbing? Of course - the statistics I posted at the start of this thread bear that out. Do airline HR departments do the same when they hire pilots? Unfortunately yes.

While such things may let white liberals feel good, it does a disservice to everyone else involved. Individuals who get ahead in life because standards have been relaxed end up finding themselves in environments that they aren't ready to handle.

United Airlines, for instance, took a very aggressive stand in hiring women in the 1980's. Typically, a pilot has to have around 3000-5000 hours of flight time, with a significant portion of that in jet or turbojet aircraft, to be competitive for major airline interviews. Unfortunately - just as there aren't thousands of black applicants with 30's on their MCATS - there weren't that many experienced women pilots around. So United did what medical school adcoms are doing - they hired whatever women they could get so long as they held pilot licences and had a few hundred hours of experience.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with experienced female pilots - just as there is nothing wrong with experienced male pilots. But United's approach - "we must have diversity" - led them to hire inexperienced female pilots who were not ready to do the job.

Typically after you are hired, you go through a month of ground school, a month of simulator training, and then are released to fly with "line check captains" for what is called "initial operating experience." Typically, this lasts for two weeks. United's quota hires - for this is what they were - got stuck in this IOE process. They couldn't be released to fly the line because the check captains realized that with no experience they were dangerous to passengers. They couldn't be fired because United would be sued.

...the other shoe: a friend of mine, a 727 driver for us, was returning home to Chicago from Saint Louis on a UAL 727 some years ago as our flight had left. It is pretty common procedure on the 727 to taxi on two engines to save fuel and start the third engine prior to takeoff. A multitude of checklists - plus plain simple observation - back you up on this so there's never an excuse to 'forget'. Anyhow, this is what this UAL - all female - flight deck crew did. They shoved up all three throttles for takeoff with engine #3 OFF. Needless to say my friend, ever the observant jumpseater, jumped out of his seat and pulled all three throttles back to idle. Had he not done so, he, and up to 125 people would be dead. Understand that this is a mistake that has never been made in the annals of NTSB investigation by an airline crew. It's so egregious, it woud be akin to a doctor walking into an ER and shooting, not treating, a patient.

Regardless of the philosophical justifications offered up for AA policies, they always end up working themselves out as quotas, and quotas have consequences. In medicine and aviation, the consequences are measured in terms of lives lost and this is why AA policies have no business being in either field of endeavor. As Ayn Rand said, "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

(By the way - I'm all for getting as many AA admissions into law schools as we can...we need more bad lawyers! ;) )
Good point. I'm sure most deaths involved in aviation and medicine are due to minorities. I'm surprised this hasn't gone public.
 
MoosePilot said:
B.S.

I'm white, my parents are not super educated - I grew up with my mother, who didn't graduate from HS, but does have some college credits she's pieced together, my mother has never gotten as high as middle class on the economy ladder, and I never had a white icon of a doctor until I was an adult. You're claiming all sorts of crap you've got no idea about.

Are you wealthy? and you just admitting to having a white doctor icon? And your mom was lucky enough to get her foot in the door of college. What abour dad? You said you never had a white doctor icon- wtf are you talking about?! When did you want to become a doctor and when did you find this icon of yours? Was it before or after you decided to become a doctor?

There are obviously exceptions to the rule jackass(read my reply to siggy dude). And thats why we have the essay form. Race is only one of the lenses they look at a candidate. It is not the absolute lense.

I guess being in the military means you don't think :) j/k...i am only playing
 
Old_Mil said:
AA, as public policy gets discussed a lot. The effects of it usually do not. And frankly, the effects of AA aren't as too terribly severe in many fields because what people do in those fields aren't a matter of life and death.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with medicine (the field I'm entering) and aviation (the field I'm leaving). In both these careers, when mistakes are made, people die. Neither field can afford the questionable competence of those who are let in by any standard other than that of merit. Do adcoms regularly disregard this and admit students based on varying levels of melanin or different plumbing? Of course - the statistics I posted at the start of this thread bear that out. Do airline HR departments do the same when they hire pilots? Unfortunately yes.

While such things may let white liberals feel good, it does a disservice to everyone else involved. Individuals who get ahead in life because standards have been relaxed end up finding themselves in environments that they aren't ready to handle.

United Airlines, for instance, took a very aggressive stand in hiring women in the 1980's. Typically, a pilot has to have around 3000-5000 hours of flight time, with a significant portion of that in jet or turbojet aircraft, to be competitive for major airline interviews. Unfortunately - just as there aren't thousands of black applicants with 30's on their MCATS - there weren't that many experienced women pilots around. So United did what medical school adcoms are doing - they hired whatever women they could get so long as they held pilot licences and had a few hundred hours of experience.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with experienced female pilots - just as there is nothing wrong with experienced male pilots. But United's approach - "we must have diversity" - led them to hire inexperienced female pilots who were not ready to do the job.

Typically after you are hired, you go through a month of ground school, a month of simulator training, and then are released to fly with "line check captains" for what is called "initial operating experience." Typically, this lasts for two weeks. United's quota hires - for this is what they were - got stuck in this IOE process. They couldn't be released to fly the line because the check captains realized that with no experience they were dangerous to passengers. They couldn't be fired because United would be sued.

...the other shoe: a friend of mine, a 727 driver for us, was returning home to Chicago from Saint Louis on a UAL 727 some years ago as our flight had left. It is pretty common procedure on the 727 to taxi on two engines to save fuel and start the third engine prior to takeoff. A multitude of checklists - plus plain simple observation - back you up on this so there's never an excuse to 'forget'. Anyhow, this is what this UAL - all female - flight deck crew did. They shoved up all three throttles for takeoff with engine #3 OFF. Needless to say my friend, ever the observant jumpseater, jumped out of his seat and pulled all three throttles back to idle. Had he not done so, he, and up to 125 people would be dead. Understand that this is a mistake that has never been made in the annals of NTSB investigation by an airline crew. It's so egregious, it woud be akin to a doctor walking into an ER and shooting, not treating, a patient.

Regardless of the philosophical justifications offered up for AA policies, they always end up working themselves out as quotas, and quotas have consequences. In medicine and aviation, the consequences are measured in terms of lives lost and this is why AA policies have no business being in either field of endeavor. As Ayn Rand said, "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

(By the way - I'm all for getting as many AA admissions into law schools as we can...we need more bad lawyers! ;) )

Are you stupid or just statistically challenged? Can you please do a study on malpractice and the color of the doctor? I would pay money to see this! I can also make up theories about how letting a pilot into medicine would be damaging. I can also make up a story about how old people shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine(they might become senile quicker..). I can talk a lot of **** like you do. But PLEASE PLEASE back it up.
 
swifteagle43 said:
Are you wealthy? and you just admitting to having a white doctor icon? And your mom was lucky enough to get her foot in the door of college. What abour dad?

There are obviously exceptions to the rule jackass. And thats why we have the essay form. Race is only one of the lenses they look at a candidate. It is not the absolute lense.

I guess being in the military means you don't think :)

Oh, look, it's the troll, back for another spanking.

Am I wealthy? Define wealth. I'm an O-3 with more than 6 years of service. Now you can figure out what I make using google.

My mother wasn't lucky. She applied and got in despite coming from abject poverty and not graduating HS. My actual father did a short stint in college, then learned the electrician trade through the Navy and does that as a career. My stepfather did some college, but worked as a policeman until his recent retirement.

Do I have a white doctor "icon"? I admire a number of white doctors. The transplant docs that I've met have been brilliant men with hearts of gold. The Air Force doctors I've met have been outstanding as well. Is that something I should be ashamed to admit? :laugh:

There are so many exceptions to this drivel that it's not a rule. White pre-meds are not always from wealthy educated backgrounds. If you want to give someone a leg up based on economic or educational background, do that. Don't try to approximate that with race, which is a totally separate and irrelevant issue.

Nice generalization about the military. The smiley doesn't make it somehow appropriate.
 
MoosePilot said:
Oh, look, it's the troll, back for another spanking.

Am I wealthy? Define wealth. I'm an O-3 with more than 6 years of service. Now you can figure out what I make using google.

My mother wasn't lucky. She applied and got in despite coming from abject poverty and not graduating HS. My actual father did a short stint in college, then learned the electrician trade through the Navy and does that as a career. My stepfather did some college, but worked as a policeman until his recent retirement.

Do I have a white doctor "icon"? I admire a number of white doctors. The transplant docs that I've met have been brilliant men with hearts of gold. The Air Force doctors I've met have been outstanding as well. Is that something I should be ashamed to admit? :laugh:

There are so many exceptions to this drivel that it's not a rule. White pre-meds are not always from wealthy educated backgrounds. If you want to give someone a leg up based on economic or educational background, do that. Don't try to approximate that with race, which is a totally separate and irrelevant issue.

Nice generalization about the military. The smiley doesn't make it somehow appropriate.

I agree with you 100%!!! Affirmative action should not be the ONLY lense used in looking at a candidate but it should be a lense. I can understand your situation and siggys and I sympathize with it. If anything you guys will have an advantage over me because I can't share those experiences with the medical committee. Trust me - I Know what you guys are going through. My family faced financial adversity too. But that doesn't mean that it should be the only lense that things are looked through.

I personally wish that we could submit our parents earning incomes throughout the years and have that considered in the app process!! That is one lense I think the admissions committee lacks in examining.

But you gotta understand taking a lense away from the admissions committee(the AA lense) will not make the process more fair. However adding a lense of poverty-wealth will. I CAN and DO understand your frustrations too man. But guess what- the rich people would fight this tooth and nail!

In all seriousness I do respect the military for defending us. :) I just knock down everyone in it cause my buddies are ROTC and thats kind of our joke.
 
swifteagle43 said:
I agree with you 100%!!! Affirmative action should not be the ONLY lense used in looking at a candidate but it should be a lense. I can understand your situation and siggys and I sympathize with it. If anything you guys will have an advantage over me because I can't share those experiences with the medical committee. Trust me - I Know what you guys are going through. My family faced financial adversity too. But that doesn't mean that it should be the only lense that things are looked through.

In all seriousness I do respect the military for defending us. :) I just knock down everyone in it cause my buddies are ROTC and thats kind of our joke.

Why can't you share you experiences with the medical committee?

Now I get the military comment. I wondered where that one came from... :laugh:
 
I agree that we have to be prepared with consequences of having AA policies. Applicants with extremely low stats may turn out to be horrible doctors (key word: may... it's not necessarily true). But honestly, this is the reason there are national board exams-- to make sure that everyone practicing medicine is competent. So saying that people benefiting from AA are more likely to be dangerous (or commit malpractice) is just not true.

And people incorrectly assume that being an awesome doctor is all about being intelligent. Yes, you must be smart, but having a good bedside manner is just as important. Being able to relate to your patients is also important (another great reason for increasing the number of minorities in medicine). I think as long as people can get through med school, they more power to them.. who cares what their mcat or gpa is? And for people who need the little extra help, then so be it.
 
swifteagle43 said:
Are you stupid or just statistically challenged? Can you please do a study on malpractice and the color of the doctor? I would pay money to see this! I can also make up theories about how letting a pilot into medicine would be damaging. I can also make up a story about how old people shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine(they might become senile quicker..). I can talk a lot of **** like you do. But PLEASE PLEASE back it up.

I figured that the name calling and insults would show up before long. This isn't a question about malpractice. Everyone knows how screwed up the present malpractice system is and any such study would be corrupted by the flaws in that system.

What this is about is established standards that are used to let people participate in aviation as pilots and medicine as doctors. You favor the idea that those standards be lowered for members of certain ethnic groups to ensure equality of outcome. I do not. It's that simple.
 
MoosePilot said:
Why can't you share you experiences with the medical committee?

Now I get the military comment. I wondered where that one came from... :laugh:

Haha, btw dude I edited my comment from your last post you responded for to give you a better idea of what I meant to say.

Cause I have never been through the same kind of destitute that you went through. My parents recovered quite quickly from it. But you on the other hand stood on your own two feet from nothing. Which is something respectable.

See also you are a non-trad so the rules don't apply. I don't think affirmative action to apply to people above 30(cause they had their chance). I think it should be focused on kids that are young and growing up because those are the ones that lack the most opportunity. Most people, no matter how bad they start off, can get do semi-alright enough to get into med school by the time they turn 30(i don't know what age you are).
 
Old_Mil said:
I figured that the name calling and insults would show up before long. This isn't a question about malpractice. Everyone knows how screwed up the present malpractice system is and any such study would be corrupted by the flaws in that system.

What this is about is established standards that are used to let people participate in aviation as pilots and medicine as doctors. You favor the idea that those standards be lowered for members of certain ethnic groups to ensure equality of outcome. I do not. It's that simple.

No- you believe that everyone somehow starts out from the same place and I understand that some people are culturally disadvantaged or poorer(in the case of siggy or moose pilot) and that they would be just as good doctors as you or I. And that there are ways to determine this by looking through different lenses which make the playing field fair.

Unfortunately MoosePilot and Siggy think that the only way to make the playing field fair is to take away the AA lense of the admissions committee when instead they should be for adding an financial income lense of people as a factor in the process. A poor white kid should NEVER be at a disadvantage to a rich African American kid. But a poor white kid should also not be compared to a rich white kid! Its that simple.

When you say color blind you are asking us all to be rich white males with a private school education(that teach towards the standardized test). I am not white but I am a south-asian male and did go to a private school and my Algebra I class was based on the SAT I. So I KNEW that the test format even before I took it.
 
In support of Old Mil and in response to his subsequent detractors...

First of all, he was citing specific examples that truly happened to him in his experience, and I believe he was doing this to explain where his beliefs on the subject come from, so chill out. I am not a huge fan of anecdotes, but I dont think that was the point of his story.

I am frustrated by people who say that, by using race as a factor, "Its not like we are just letting in terrible doctors, there are so many qualified applicants that even if they are held to a lower standard, GPA and MCAT-wise, they can still be competent." I highly doubt anyone would argue this point. My point is, if there is ANY standard used to judge that isnt based on merit, i.e. race, nepotism, etc..., then this sets up a system where the POSSIBILITY is there that an underqualified person can be accepted. Obviously, this doesnt happen often if ever, and white kids complaining that the big bad black boy took their spot are most often wrong and exaggerating the issue. What this approach does, however, is reduce the argument and fail to address the underlying problem of considering things which are unrelated to medicine, such as skin color and parents, to keep consistent, just because they dont happen to cause that MANY problems, that OFTEN.

On the other hand, some people have argued that having minority physicians is an actual benefit based solely on their skin color, i.e. that if they are serving a primarily minority population then they will be identified with more easily and can be more effective. If this is true, and I am certainly not qualified to determine that either way, then certainly this is an ACCEPTABLE use of race in determining admission, since in this case the skin color does in fact imply fitness of a doctor.

This issue is a fairly personal one to most of us, but I don't think that the emotion clouds judgement just on the anti-AA side. So many of the pro-AA arguments, to me anyhow, boil down to either "Its the best we got so shut up" or "You whiny little white racist, shut up," neither of which is truly in the spirit of the intelligent debate that I would hope future doctors would be capable of.

There, that was my holier-than-thou reprimand for the day, now continue flaming at your leisure... :thumbup: :)
 
swifteagle43 said:
No- you believe that everyone someone starts out from the same place and I understand that some people are culturally disadvantaged or poorer(in the case of siggy or moose pilot) and that they would be just as good doctors as you or I. And that there are ways to determine this by looking lenses which make the playing field fair.

Unfortunately MoosePilot and Siggy think that the only way to make the playing field fair is to take away the AA lense of the admissions committee when instead they should be for adding an financial income of people as a factor in the process. A poor white kid should NEVER be at a disadvantage to a rich African American kid. But a poor white kid should also not be compared to a rich white kid! Its that simple.

When you say color blind you are asking us all to be rich white males with a private school education(that teach towards the standardized test).

If you make it colorblind, though, how does that hurt anyone? If someone's from a disadvantaged family, they get looked at with the disadvantage in mind. If not, then they don't. There's no reason the rich African American child of two African American doctors should benefit from AA. If you actually think the MCAT is so biased he can't score well because of race... I doubt he's growing up in Harlem away from the culture that MCAT passages might be based on. His parents can afford test prep, it's just a weird idea.

Race shouldn't be a factor in anything, because that's the definition of racism. If you want to make up for inequities, look at the inequity. Look at economic disadvantage or poor school systems. Don't look at color, that doesn't define who someone is... or at least that's what I've been taught.
 
MoosePilot said:
If you make it colorblind, though, how does that hurt anyone? If someone's from a disadvantaged family, they get looked at with the disadvantage in mind. If not, then they don't. There's no reason the rich African American child of two African American doctors should benefit from AA. If you actually think the MCAT is so biased he can't score well because of race... I doubt he's growing up in Harlem away from the culture that MCAT passages might be based on. His parents can afford test prep, it's just a weird idea.

Race shouldn't be a factor in anything, because that's the definition of racism. If you want to make up for inequities, look at the inequity. Look at economic disadvantage or poor school systems. Don't look at color, that doesn't define who someone is... or at least that's what I've been taught.

I sorta kinda agree with you. The financial aspect of an applicant should be even MORE important than their color! I AGREE 100%!!! But i still believe that certain races will do better because they have more icons to look upto(this is not for non-trads bro). I think once a few years pass we should take affirmative action off because there will be enough role models for certain communities to look up to.

Slavery deprived certain races of icons. Once those icons are re-established the engine will be in motion and we won't have to worry. Trust me. I am not pro-giving anyone anything. I am fiscally a conservative but morally liberal. I would NEVER want anybody to take my med school spot(you psycho?! i study four hours a day!). But I realize that it is not about me-right now and right here. There were somethings that happened that need to be ammended which are greater than this. The steps of the med school you walk on were probably paved by slaves. Just keep that in mind.

See they want a color blind-income blind society because they can use the advtantages the were BORN with. There is a such thing as white privalage. There is such a thing as a better education(private school/rich area). It matters where you were born or were you lived or how much $$ your parents made. You can probably study more if you don't have to work 3 jobs. It matters if you are black and instead of a white kid whose hero is a corporate tycoon instead of an NBA player.
 
i'm going to throw up with all your talk about "icons", "rich white privilege", "rich black below poor white, all under rich white, who want to maintain privilege" and "lenses", fat purple hippo man.

Do you talk a lot?

:cool:
 
swifteagle43 said:
I sorta kinda agree with you. The financial aspect of an applicant should be even MORE important than their color! I AGREE 100%!!! But i still believe that certain races will do better because they have more icons to look upto(this is not for non-trads bro). I think once a few years pass we should take affirmative action off because there will be enough role models for certain communities to look up to.

Slavery deprived certain races of icons. Once those icons are re-established the engine will be in motion and we won't have to worry. Trust me. I am not pro-giving anyone anything. I am fiscally a conservative but morally liberal. I would NEVER want anybody to take my med school spot(you psycho?! i study four hours a day!). But I realize that it is not about me-right now and right here. There were somethings that happened that need to be ammended which are greater than this. The steps of the med school you walk on were probably paved by slaves. Just keep that in mind.

See they want a color blind-income blind society because they can use the advtantages the were BORN with. There is a such thing as white privalage. There is such a thing as a better education(private school/rich area). It matters where you were born or were you lived or how much $$ your parents made. You can probably study more if you don't have to work 3 jobs. It matters if you are black and instead of a white kid whose hero is a corporate tycoon instead of local thug.

I don't totally get the non-trad exception. If I hadn't pulled myself up out of the status I was born into, nobody would have done it for me. A lot of my family is a good example of that :laugh: Now I had help. I strongly believe in financial aid, because it really helped me, but ultimately *I* did it. That's shaped my views.

A better education is color blind. It can be looked at separate from color. Where you were born can be looked at separate from color. The other things you mention are income related (as are education and geography). Who you choose for your hero - well that's up to you. I'm not about to advocate making up for someone who chose to look up to Eminem rather than Dr. Zuhdi (a transplant pioneer in Oklahoma).
 
MoosePilot said:
I don't totally get the non-trad exception. If I hadn't pulled myself up out of the status I was born into, nobody would have done it for me. A lot of my family is a good example of that :laugh: Now I had help. I strongly believe in financial aid, because it really helped me, but ultimately *I* did it. That's shaped my views.

A better education is color blind. It can be looked at separate from color. Where you were born can be looked at separate from color. The other things you mention are income related (as are education and geography). Who you choose for your hero - well that's up to you. I'm not about to advocate making up for someone who chose to look up to Eminem rather than Dr. Zuhdi (a transplant pioneer in Oklahoma).

I mean that affirmative action should not apply to non-trad students(meaning black non-trads equal white non trads). Not in the sense that non-trads shouldn't get special treatment. I agree with your system! 100%! but in context to where you are economically.

One thing: you might be more inclined to pick heroes of similar look than you. A poor black kid is taught to look upto NBA players instead of corporate ceos(the poor white kids hero).

As for Flash: Are you a tiny dude who got beat up in high school? Pale dude who can't dance and is afraid of black people? :laugh:
 
swifteagle43 said:
As for Flash: Are you a tiny dude who got beat up in high school? Pale dude who can't dance and is afraid of black people? :laugh:

1 No, but what if I was?

2 I'm a brown dude who can't dance. (non-trad, btw...should brown non-trad get AA on par with black, rich non-trad or white poor non-trad whose idols were ceo's. Who am I "taught to look up to" as a brown non-trad, Mr. know it all?)

3 Not at all.


If I may, piece of advice - listen more, read threads, learn, ask thoughtful questions (hopefully a little better than "is 3.74 GPA at small liberals arts better than 3.67 at big public college") and yap less - less mental vomit. And please, please, no more with the CAPS and BOLDS and FONTS.

Come to think of it, do what u want, entertains me.
 
flash said:
1 No, but what if I was?

2 I'm a brown dude who can't dance. (non-trad, btw...should brown non-trad get AA on par with black, rich non-trad or white poor non-trad whose idols were ceo's. Who am I "taught to look up to" as a brown non-trad, Mr. know it all?)

3 Not at all.


If I may, piece of advice - listen more, read threads, learn, ask thoughtful questions (hopefully a little better than "is 3.74 GPA at small liberals arts better than 3.67 at big public college") and yap less - less mental vomit. And please, please, no more with the CAPS and BOLDS and FONTS.

Come to think of it, do what u want, entertains me.

You are so dumb! LOL! :laugh: :laugh:
 
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