affirmative action

[Siggy]

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omg, I hate when n00bs spell n00b wrong

Shut up nub, everyone but noobs know that noobs is actually spelled Newbs.


/sarcasm

 

[Siggy]

Back up Back up. Lets get a few things straight:

I am sorry to hear about you family and your hard times. I am sure you WILL get special consideration once you write your story in the essay you give for college.

Thank you for your sympathy, but I believe that I should be able to stand up on my own two feet then use my family as an excuse for not doing well in school. Will I use my situation to my advantage? Yes. While I do not agree with the rules of the game, I do not fault anyone who uses them to their advantage. If someone gets in on AA, as long as they can pass the boards, then good job. If you are an AA student and can't pass the boards, then it is a shame because that place could have gone to a student that could have passed (remember, good "minority" applicants don't need AA to get in. They don't need a crutch).

I never said the TEST was UNFAIR!! I said it was made up by people who are not from similar backgrounds. Women also perform bad on things like the SAT because it is designed from the male mind perspective.

Yes, because the MCAT doesn't ask about how to apply makeup? /sarcasm

Since I can't comment on the MCAT (since that is about a year away for me), I'll talk about the college admissions tests. I took both the SAT and the ACT before college. I will agree that the SAT can be very biased towards people who took classes becasue a good portion of the verbal is comprised of stupid little "a is to b as c is to ______" I believe that the ACT is a better test because it tests on actual subjects that the students took and more subjects then the SAT. Thus, if you don't accel at the verbal section, you could always make it up in social studies, science, math, etc. Granted, I got basically the same score on both. 1240 on the SAT and a 28 on the ACT (28=1270 using the UC systems conversion table).

Thats a tricky question in two respects. Yes I understand YOUR specific frustration and YOUR difficult set of circumstances. And I am sure you will get specific consideration for these if you mention them in your essay.

The question is not will I get consideration, but should I? Truthfully, will being in a hospital for almost a year visiting my mother make me a better doctor? Maybe maybe not. I was young. I don't remember 90% of it. I went to the hospital that my mother went through rehabilitation at (St. Jude in Orange County, CA), but I was even surprised when I didn't reconize it.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that most white applicants are not in YOUR situation! Am I frustrated by the fact that I need to score higher than even white applicants to get into a medical school? HELL YES! But-I am not upset over the fact because I realize that I also have certain advantages that I am blessed with and I am going to use them better than my counter parts.

Am I mad about AA? No. Mad is too strong of a word. On the other hand, I believe that it is much better to at least discussion what I believe to be policies that I disagree with while defending policies that I agree with. I do not believe in shrugging my shoulders and giving up because it either won't change (change is not easy), or change after I'm done.

A couple of things that you and I share are things like icons and networking to people in the medical social circle. I am sure you know or were inspired by a doctor and your parents know doctors on a personal level.

And your circle of friends(which will usually be white-exceptions in some cases) might also have access to resources that they can share with you.

I'll be honest. I was kinda of a loner in HS. I dormed my first year in college (actually, I am dorming my second year too) and made many friends of many colors and cultures. thx for playing, though.

I have access to my moms friends(who are doctors) and my dads friends(who are also doctors). I have a total of 7 doctors in my family and am fortunately blessed by this. And you will find most premed candidates that are gung-ho and do well also are blessed with atleast 1 or 2 doctors that they are close with. I also have cousins who all went to ivy league schools and my parents are highly educated. I am not the exception to the rule in south asian applicants! This goes for most asian/south applicants!

You will RARELY find this kind of situation in minority of other descent.

But that doesn't mean that you can't make opportunities themselves. Will I use my family's GP for shadowing and etc? Yes. Will I use doctors that I have access to as a volunteer for shadowing? Yes. I created the latter. It was not handed to me on a silver platter as you seem to think that any opportunity a white student has is.

You brought up a good question: Should something arbitrary as where your ancestors came from matter in admissions?

Well-let me ask you this: Does it matter who your mom and dad is? Whether they are educated or not?

I believe that it shouldn't matter to the ADCOMS. Do I view my parents education (or, as some would consider, a lack there of) to be a detriment to me as a student? No. If anything, it has made me stronger because it has showed me the importance of a higher education. Why is it so much harder for students with parents who have less of an education to learn the same lesson? Why should they replace the spot of a student who learned this lesson? There is a finite number of spots in med school. While it could be arguable that a person who did not get in because of AA (for every person who gets in on AA, there is one person who doesn't get in because of AA), why should he be replaced if he (or she) could show that they could preform better if they have a higher GPA or MCAT score?

Ofcourse it does! Because it affects you directly and you identify with those people!

Now in the greater sense: Does it matter what race you are?
As you probably know our country of America has a shameful history with slavery. We deprived people of their freedom and kept them from being educated. Now- We have created a culture of people that is deprived of education. And the best way to rejuivinate education in these communities is to use AA.

Who is this "we?" I nor my family did not own slaves. There are plenty of Americans whos parents came after slavery. We did not benifit from slavery, and it is a crime to punish us for the sins of other people's fathers.

I would like to make one point clear: Affirmative Action is a Band-Aid on the cuts that slavery left on the body of america. One day when the wound is almost healed the band-aid(AA) will be removed. The wound is not fully healed right now and therfore the bandaid should NOT be removed. As Pro-AA as I am right now I will like to see it gone by the year 2050(roughly 100 years after any real civil rights laws began to pass)

I see AA as a boy scout tourniquet. Yea, the bleeding may stop, or may not, but the arm is dead. The problem is that the tourniquet is not needed in the first place.

 

[ilim01]

How come nobody talks about the the intrinsic AA that had existed throughout the history of this country before the civil rights movement fifty years ago favoring white males. White males were automatically given preference over any minorities and most Med Schools and Universities have only started accepting minorities recently (past several decades).

I am 1/2 Asian, 1/2 white, and with a one syllable last name its going to be harder for me to get in, than even most white males (asians are overrepresented in medicine); In the past I was an arder AA opponent and was completely on the other side of the fence. However, living in Brooklyn I slowly became aquainted with the ghetto culture that many African Americans are living in. Please do some research like the average income of a white vs black and see if the results dont disturb you. Many blacks are living in a "ghetto" culture, in which they grow up surrounded by gangsters, drug dealers, and pimps. How is a child supposed to strive to suceed when this is all he knows ?

So a simple search on the avg income, life expectancy, HIV, etc of white vs black populations and you will see the tremedous inequality in this coutry that needs to be corrected.

and dont point out exceptions "i'm white and poor" or "my friend is black and is rich", just look at the statistics and they will speak for themselves.

 

[swifteagle43]

Thank you for your sympathy, but I believe that I should be able to stand up on my own two feet then use my family as an excuse for not doing well in school. Will I use my situation to my advantage? Yes. While I do not agree with the rules of the game, I do not fault anyone who uses them to their advantage. If someone gets in on AA, as long as they can pass the boards, then good job. If you are an AA student and can't pass the boards, then it is a shame because that place could have gone to a student that could have passed (remember, good "minority" applicants don't need AA to get in. They don't need a crutch).

Yes, because the MCAT doesn't ask about how to apply makeup? /sarcasm

Since I can't comment on the MCAT (since that is about a year away for me), I'll talk about the college admissions tests. I took both the SAT and the ACT before college. I will agree that the SAT can be very biased towards people who took classes becasue a good portion of the verbal is comprised of stupid little "a is to b as c is to ______" I believe that the ACT is a better test because it tests on actual subjects that the students took and more subjects then the SAT. Thus, if you don't accel at the verbal section, you could always make it up in social studies, science, math, etc. Granted, I got basically the same score on both. 1240 on the SAT and a 28 on the ACT (28=1270 using the UC systems conversion table).


The question is not will I get consideration, but should I? Truthfully, will being in a hospital for almost a year visiting my mother make me a better doctor? Maybe maybe not. I was young. I don't remember 90% of it. I went to the hospital that my mother went through rehabilitation at (St. Jude in Orange County, CA), but I was even surprised when I didn't reconize it.

Am I mad about AA? No. Mad is too strong of a word. On the other hand, I believe that it is much better to at least discussion what I believe to be policies that I disagree with while defending policies that I agree with. I do not believe in shrugging my shoulders and giving up because it either won't change (change is not easy), or change after I'm done.

I'll be honest. I was kinda of a loner in HS. I dormed my first year in college (actually, I am dorming my second year too) and made many friends of many colors and cultures. thx for playing, though.

But that doesn't mean that you can't make opportunities themselves. Will I use my family's GP for shadowing and etc? Yes. Will I use doctors that I have access to as a volunteer for shadowing? Yes. I created the latter. It was not handed to me on a silver platter as you seem to think that any opportunity a white student has is.

I believe that it shouldn't matter to the ADCOMS. Do I view my parents education (or, as some would consider, a lack there of) to be a detriment to me as a student? No. If anything, it has made me stronger because it has showed me the importance of a higher education. Why is it so much harder for students with parents who have less of an education to learn the same lesson? Why should they replace the spot of a student who learned this lesson? There is a finite number of spots in med school. While it could be arguable that a person who did not get in because of AA (for every person who gets in on AA, there is one person who doesn't get in because of AA), why should he be replaced if he (or she) could show that they could preform better if they have a higher GPA or MCAT score?

Who is this "we?" I nor my family did not own slaves. There are plenty of Americans whos parents came after slavery. We did not benifit from slavery, and it is a crime to punish us for the sins of other people's fathers.

I see AA as a boy scout tourniquet. Yea, the bleeding may stop, or may not, but the arm is dead. The problem is that the tourniquet is not needed in the first place.

woa. i am going to stop debating with you. not because you have won but I reponded to all these points before in response to moose pilot. The argument is kinda over. The final conclusion was:

Affirmative action is a valid process but financial background(income of parents) is a much much more important factor which is not considered and should be considered. And that affirmative action should be removed once there are a significant amount of black "icon" doctors in the field. 🙂

 

[sdner4life]

Isn't this an interesting situation? We've got a bunch of non-disadvantaged minorities discussing Affirmative Action. Why is that? Maybe it's because they've got other things on their mind...Like, how to pay for their applications or how much its gonna cost to get to their next interview. Minorities (and I dont mean south asians) definately have a different experience with access to lesser resources. Bottom Line. Regardless of color/background, if someone is not qualified to be a doctor (in terms of intelligence), they won't likely make it through med school.

Oh, look, it's the troll, back for another spanking.

Am I wealthy? Define wealth. I'm an O-3 with more than 6 years of service. Now you can figure out what I make using google.

My mother wasn't lucky. She applied and got in despite coming from abject poverty and not graduating HS. My actual father did a short stint in college, then learned the electrician trade through the Navy and does that as a career. My stepfather did some college, but worked as a policeman until his recent retirement.

Do I have a white doctor "icon"? I admire a number of white doctors. The transplant docs that I've met have been brilliant men with hearts of gold. The Air Force doctors I've met have been outstanding as well. Is that something I should be ashamed to admit?

There are so many exceptions to this drivel that it's not a rule. White pre-meds are not always from wealthy educated backgrounds. If you want to give someone a leg up based on economic or educational background, do that. Don't try to approximate that with race, which is a totally separate and irrelevant issue.

Nice generalization about the military. The smiley doesn't make it somehow appropriate.

 

[swifteagle43]

Isn't this an interesting situation? We've got a bunch of non-disadvantaged minorities discussing Affirmative Action. Why is that? Maybe it's because they've got other things on their mind...Like, how to pay for their applications or how much its gonna cost to get to their next interview. Minorities (and I dont mean south asians) definately have a different experience with access to lesser resources. Bottom Line. Regardless of color/background, if someone is not qualified to be a doctor (in terms of intelligence), they won't likely make it through med school.

GREAT POINT!

 

[SarahGM]

Women also perform bad on things like the SAT because it is designed from the male mind perspective.

Woa hoa HOA, sonny. Think before you speak. Think, then speak. Now open mouth, insert foot.

Ordinarily I'd be more annoyed, but I'm sitting over here on the *other* side of the proverbial gate.
😉

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[SarahGM]

I sorta kinda agree with you. The financial aspect of an applicant should be even MORE important than their color! I AGREE 100%!!! But i still believe that certain races will do better because they have more icons to look upto(this is not for non-trads bro). I think once a few years pass we should take affirmative action off because there will be enough role models for certain communities to look up to.

Slavery deprived certain races of icons. Once those icons are re-established the engine will be in motion and we won't have to worry. Trust me. I am not pro-giving anyone anything. I am fiscally a conservative but morally liberal. I would NEVER want anybody to take my med school spot(you psycho?! i study four hours a day!). But I realize that it is not about me-right now and right here. There were somethings that happened that need to be ammended which are greater than this. The steps of the med school you walk on were probably paved by slaves. Just keep that in mind.

What is your deal with "icons"?

1) You talk as though black students can and will only look up to black "icons," and white students can and will only look up to white "icons."

2) I can't really think of any "icons" who inspired me. I Just happen to like science, and medicine, and how the body works. There are no doctors in my family. I'm a pioneer, and I'm doing this on my own. Not everyone has an "icon" -- some people are trailblazers.

 

[SarahGM]

So a simple search on the avg income, life expectancy, HIV, etc of white vs black populations and you will see the tremedous inequality in this coutry that needs to be corrected.

and dont point out exceptions "i'm white and poor" or "my friend is black and is rich", just look at the statistics and they will speak for themselves.

So basically, your point is.... "SOMEONE in this situation has to get screwed, so it might as well be YOU, poor white people!"


🙄

 

[momto5]

I sorta kinda agree with you. The financial aspect of an applicant should be even MORE important than their color! I AGREE 100%!!!

Ugh! I grew up in poverty (shall we eat tonight or pay the electric bill?) and still live on very little (dh went out on disability a few years ago and we are finally making our way back to where we were). Do I want to be given special consideration because of my financial status? No- I want to get into medical school on my own merit- busting my butt for my 4.0! Just because you were/ are poor is no excuse to slack off and expect to be given special consideration- you still have a brain! BTW- my parents barely made it out of high school and I have only known a few doctors I could say I want to be like.

 

[ilim01]

So basically, your point is.... "SOMEONE in this situation has to get screwed, so it might as well be YOU, poor white people!"


🙄

did u look at the stats like i asked before responding??? 😡

Look, as an Asian male I will get scrwed the most, (even more than white males) by AA.
But this is a real necessity to stop this self-perpetuating cycle of poverty in the black communities. You want to keep the blacks in the ghettos, rotting in crime, uneducated, with soaring HIV rates?

My mistake, I thought medicine was a profession of compassion 😕

 

[acl3623]

the bottom line is that minorities (mainly latinos and blacks) are not getting the healthcare they need. it just isnt happening. now, we know that doctors that are of that certain race will likely go back and practice to benefit their own communities. these are the same people that have the smallest applicant pools for med schools, and usually have a bit lower stats because they have less access to resources like prep courses, tutors, etc. so there must be a way for medical schools to get these people with lower (probably average, not like <20 on the MCAT and 2.5 GPA, lets get real here..theyre not handing out acceptances to any foolio with half a brain and the right skin color either) stats to medical school so we can stop the vicious cycle that is eating away at americas poorest, neediest communities. the best we got is AA. it may not be the most politically correct thing to do, but if white/asian/middleastern doctors that are overrepresented arent willing to go to areas where theyll be seeing poverty, drug abuse, and very critically ill patients that may not be able to pay for their care...then we gotta find someone to do it. right now, the only resource that we have the biggest chance of finding that kind of committment in is other blacks and latinos...who grew up in that situation.

sadly, there are people that use it to their complete advantage...i refer to them as douche bags

 

[Quynh2007]

do people who are opposed of AA suspect every poor black/latino/n.american at their school, interview of being there because of AA?

That is my biggest problem with AA is that these blacks, latinos, and n.americans have to now work twice as hard to just be considered as good as the white/asian counterpart. I don't think that is fair to these people. They have to work so hard to overcome the AA stigma and prove to people that they belong. These people have so much to lose, falling down that proverbial ladder with just one wrong move, while they see their white/asian counterparts sneering at them, saying they took someone else's spot. That they belong at the bottom of the ladder. That is wrong people.

I lived in a place that is three times more violent than NYC per capita. I know how scary it is to walk home on a street that just yesterday had a shootout. I have had to encourage my parents to put their pride aside and go to a free health clinic because they don't have insurance, barely enough to pay the bills let alone have insurance. Life's hard for these people. I've never been on a reservation, but I have heard that the poorest places in America are those reservations. These people need help and support, but you shouldn't condemn them because they need it, that only makes it that much harder.

A lot of these kids are lucky enough to be accepted to magnet schools when they were young, but many of them have to travel upwards of an hour (sometimes more) to get to those schools. Being ridiculed by classmates because their clothes aren't the newest, their faces aren't the cleanest, and just thought of as another handout. These people still are very smart, obviously they tested well enough to be accepted to a magnet school, but what about those that couldn't? What about those that when they started school didn't even know a lot of the basic things they should know? They weren't given those leapfrog books or toys. They played with cardboards.
Try to be a kindergarten teacher for a inner-city public school or just observe it before saying anything derogatory. The fact that these people can even have the opportunity to APPLY to medical school shows they've overcome great adversity, and should be rewarded for it. But, if it is at the cost of their classmates looking down at them, that's a real shame, and it's not fair.

Legacies should be something that should be more debatable. Afterall, they have all the opportunities to make it, and yet, why should they be given some "points" because their parents went there? In fact, those people should be held to a higher standard.

 

[swifteagle43]

did u look at the stats like i asked before responding??? 😡

Look, as an Asian male I will get scrwed the most, (even more than white males) by AA.
But this is a real necessity to stop this self-perpetuating cycle of poverty in the black communities. You want to keep the blacks in the ghettos, rotting in crime, uneducated, with soaring HIV rates?

My mistake, I thought medicine was a profession of compassion 😕

Seriously this is a good point. I am south asian male and I get hit with it harder than any rich white male will EVER get hit by AA. Yet rich white males complain about it louder than anyone. 🙂 If you take away AA there will be even less white doctors. They will all be south asian/ asian/ middle eastern. So chill the hell out.

Somebody made a comment like "its not fair to punish me for someone elses forefathers mistakes." Guess what?! The steps to your med school were probably paved by slaves. Unless you boycott all major institutions that participated in using slavery(almost all of them used slaves) you are clearly taking advantage of slavery. Duke was founded on slavery money. Even jesuit school like Boston College or Georgetown or Notre Dame used slaves to build their schools. So did every other major college.


So chill the hell out. We Americans have a shameful history! Its called slavery! Things did not start out perfect so we are trying to make ammends with our history! "ohh AA is not fair!" Yeah so I guess cracking a whip on someones back to build a nice med school is? Its not always about you- stop being greedy.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Seriously this is a good point. I am south asian male and I get hit with it harder than any rich white male will EVER get hit by AA. Yet rich white males complain about it louder than anyone. 🙂 If you take away AA there will be even less white doctors. They will all be south asian/ asian/ middle eastern. So chill the hell out.

This is total garbage. If you go the AAMC website and look at the MCAT/GPA characteristics of matriculated whites versus matriculated East/South Asian students at med schools, you will see that there is very little difference between the two groups (MCAT is slightly higher for Asians, while GPA is slightly higher for whites). How, precisely, does the fact that people of Asian descent are about 4% of the US population and 35% of the med school population indicate discrimination against them or toughened academic standards for them to be admitted? This is one of the wrongest, most unsubstantiated points that has just been repeated verbatim about five times on this thread.

 

[Old_Mil]

did u look at the stats like i asked before responding??? 😡

Look, as an Asian male I will get scrwed the most, (even more than white males) by AA.
But this is a real necessity to stop this self-perpetuating cycle of poverty in the black communities. You want to keep the blacks in the ghettos, rotting in crime, uneducated, with soaring HIV rates?

Think about what you just wrote here. "This is a real-necessity to stop this self-perpetuating cycle of poverty in the black communities." Do you honestly think that lowering admissions standards for college/graduate school students is going to somehow magically transform the societal standards in the inner city? What percentage of students who come from such a background would be willing to complete the academic prerequisite work to get into such schools even in an AA scenario? What percentage of students would voluntarily re-insert themselves into such a hellhole after having such educational opportunities come their way?

None of what you propose will reform inner city society. All it will do is let white liberals feel better because they will see a couple of black doctors at Mayo or Hopkins and feel that everything is right with the world when they go back home to their homes in the exurbs and sip lattes after work.

Do you really want to clean up inner city society? Ban rap music. Tell students that ebonics, not the SAT is the problem. Start executing drug dealers and gang members like they would in Singapore. Rather than turning a blind eye and adopting an "I'm ok - you're ok" attitude, impose upon them the sort of culture that will allow them to succeed. Hell, Henry Higgins did it for Eliza Doolittle - but it sure didn't involve finding a back door for her to get into St. Christopher's.

 

[flash]

Seriously this is a good point. I am south asian male and I get hit with it harder than any rich white male will EVER get hit by AA. Yet rich white males complain about it louder than anyone. 🙂 If you take away AA there will be even less white doctors. They will all be south asian/ asian/ middle eastern. So chill the hell out.

Somebody made a comment like "its not fair to punish me for someone elses forefathers mistakes." Guess what?! The steps to your med school were probably paved by slaves. Unless you boycott all major institutions that participated in using slavery(almost all of them used slaves) you are clearly taking advantage of slavery. Duke was founded on slavery money. Even jesuit school like Boston College or Georgetown or Notre Dame used slaves to build their schools. So did every other major college.


So chill the hell out. We Americans have a shameful history! Its called slavery! Things did not start out perfect so we are trying to make ammends with our history! "ohh AA is not fair!" Yeah so I guess cracking a whip on someones back to build a nice med school is? Its not always about you- stop being greedy.

yeah, stop being greedy...and chill the hell out...🙄 😎

 

[Old_Mil]

Somebody made a comment like "its not fair to punish me for someone elses forefathers mistakes." Guess what?! The steps to your med school were probably paved by slaves. Unless you boycott all major institutions that participated in using slavery(almost all of them used slaves) you are clearly taking advantage of slavery. Duke was founded on slavery money. Even jesuit school like Boston College or Georgetown or Notre Dame used slaves to build their schools. So did every other major college.

So chill the hell out. We Americans have a shameful history! Its called slavery! Things did not start out perfect so we are trying to make ammends with our history! "ohh AA is not fair!" Yeah so I guess cracking a whip on someones back to build a nice med school is? Its not always about you- stop being greedy.

Given the above, Swifteagle must clearly support affirmative action for Jews. After all, the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians for 280 years. More recently, genocide was committed against them by the Nazis (and we certainly had a hand in this by not allowing free and unrestricted emigration to Jews seeking to flee Germany - in fact, in many cases we turned them away). So using Swifteagle's faulty reasoning, we should have affirmative action for Jews? How about for the Japanese (since they were held in internment camps during world war II)?

At some point, you have to suck it up, break with the past, and take responsibility for your own future. The Jewish and Japanese communities have done just that. Everyone else in America should not be made to pay for the black community's inability or unwillingness to do the same.

 

[flash]

Given the above, Swifteagle must clearly support affirmative action for Jews. After all, the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians for 280 years. More recently, genocide was committed against them by the Nazis (and we certainly had a hand in this by not allowing free and unrestricted emigration to Jews seeking to flee Germany - in fact, in many cases we turned them away). So using Swifteagle's faulty reasoning, we should have affirmative action for Jews? How about for the Japanese (since they were held in internment camps during world war II)?

At some point, you have to suck it up, break with the past, and take responsibility for your own future. The Jewish and Japanese communities have done just that. Everyone else in America should not be made to pay for the black community's inability or unwillingness to do the same.

And both of them have done very, very well generally speaking. Japan went from nothing to #2 economic powerhouse in 50 years. Good point.

 

[Cat's Meow]

Given the above, Swifteagle must clearly support affirmative action for Jews. After all, the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians for 280 years. More recently, genocide was committed against them by the Nazis (and we certainly had a hand in this by not allowing free and unrestricted emigration to Jews seeking to flee Germany - in fact, in many cases we turned them away). So using Swifteagle's faulty reasoning, we should have affirmative action for Jews? How about for the Japanese (since they were held in internment camps during world war II)?

At some point, you have to suck it up, break with the past, and take responsibility for your own future. The Jewish and Japanese communities have done just that. Everyone else in America should not be made to pay for the black community's inability or unwillingness to do the same.

This is true, but most Jewish families affected by the Holocaust have been financially compensated--and very well--by the German gov't and private banks. I know that no sum of $$$ can make up for the horrors of genocide, but it has helped Jews to regain their position in professional and academic professions.

Blacks have yet to receive $$$ for the days of slavery.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Woa hoa HOA, sonny. Think before you speak. Think, then speak. Now open mouth, insert foot.

Ordinarily I'd be more annoyed, but I'm sitting over here on the *other* side of the proverbial gate.
😉

Thanks for the laugh.

After reading this entire thread, it's very obvious to me that this swifteagle character is an arrogant and ignorant person who thinks they know everything. In all actuality, your high intelligence and extreme overconfidence in your opinions makes you a complete waste of space. Someone mute this guy. Anyone else here going to be upset if I take him around back and teach him a lesson?

Weebs

 

[SarahGM]

You want to keep the blacks in the ghettos, rotting in crime, uneducated, with soaring HIV rates?

My mistake, I thought medicine was a profession of compassion 😕

Apparently it's a profession of bigotry...

I can't believe no one jumped upon what you just said above! How about "the blacks" alongside me in my anatomy group? They don't go home to the crime-ridden ghetto every night.

And the funny part is, you can't tell me that they're there in med school all thanks to the wonders of affirmative action. Because saying that would just discredit all of the hard work and intelligence that got them to medical school in the first place.

 

[ana_counselor]

As a previous poster said, you just need to state in your AMCAS or AACOMAS application that you're a member of an underrepresented group in medicine. Also, if you're unsuccessful in gaining acceptance, there are several programs available only to minorities to strengthen your application. Many med schools sponsor such programs, and the AAMC website also lists many good programs (http://www.aamc.org/diversity/initiatives.htm). Some med schools even have post-bacc programs for minorities with guaranteed acceptance if you achieve a minimum GPA.

Good luck! Medicine needs to be more diversified. Don't be too discouraged with all the talk about GPAs and MCATs...those don't make a good physician.

This subject has been discussed ad nauseum, and tempers usually flare quite easily. Get the information and run, run far away!

Thanks so much, I know that this is a very touchy subject, and I truly appreciate any and all leads and information as my exposure to this area is very limited to my college admin officer. You rock

 

[swifteagle43]

This is true, but most Jewish families affected by the Holocaust have been financially compensated--and very well--by the German gov't and private banks. I know that no sum of $$$ can make up for the horrors of genocide, but it has helped Jews to regain their position in professional and academic professions.

Blacks have yet to receive $$$ for the days of slavery.

Great point! Affirmative action is the only reperation for slavery and these people want to even take that away!

 

[ana_counselor]

Given the above, Swifteagle must clearly support affirmative action for Jews. After all, the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians for 280 years. More recently, genocide was committed against them by the Nazis (and we certainly had a hand in this by not allowing free and unrestricted emigration to Jews seeking to flee Germany - in fact, in many cases we turned them away). So using Swifteagle's faulty reasoning, we should have affirmative action for Jews? How about for the Japanese (since they were held in internment camps during world war II)?

At some point, you have to suck it up, break with the past, and take responsibility for your own future. The Jewish and Japanese communities have done just that. Everyone else in America should not be made to pay for the black community's inability or unwillingness to do the same.

wow, I'm speechless... 🙁

 

[swifteagle43]

This is total garbage. If you go the AAMC website and look at the MCAT/GPA characteristics of matriculated whites versus matriculated East/South Asian students at med schools, you will see that there is very little difference between the two groups (MCAT is slightly higher for Asians, while GPA is slightly higher for whites). How, precisely, does the fact that people of Asian descent are about 4% of the US population and 35% of the med school population indicate discrimination against them or toughened academic standards for them to be admitted? This is one of the wrongest, most unsubstantiated points that has just been repeated verbatim about five times on this thread.

Thats because they have higher numbers in MCAT and GPA scores! Taadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! A lot of them still get rejected even though they have higher numbers than their white counter parts cause med schools want diversity in their limited number of seats. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

wow, I'm speechless... 🙁

Know what the funny part is? This kid will some day unfortunately be a doctor. Know whats funnier? He is not kidding. He sincerly believes this. He thinks everything is either an apple or an orange 🙂 when in fact life has mangos and peaches too 🙂 Just because he didn't get into medical school and is now doing DO he is taking it out on us.

But you know what I think? As time goes on and society becomes more enlightened their grandkids will be part black or hispanic. And I will laugh sooooo hard 🙂

Mango anyone?

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Thats because they have higher numbers in MCAT and GPA scores! Taadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! A lot of them still get rejected even though they have higher numbers than their white counter parts. Tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Do you have a quantitative reasoning problem?

Average stats for Asian applicants: 28.4 MCAT/3.47 GPA/6,734 applicants/3,094 acceptances
Average stats for white applicants: 28.3 MCAT/3.53 GPA/21,028 applicants/10,343 acceptances

About 50% are accepted among both white and Asian applicants, and the average Asian and average white applicant have basically identical stats. It is not "harder" for an Asian to get in than a white person.

 

[swifteagle43]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Average stats for Asian applicants: 28.4 MCAT/3.47 GPA/6,734 applicants/3,094 acceptances
Average stats for white applicants: 28.3 MCAT/3.53 GPA/21,028 applicants/10,343 acceptances

About 50% are accepted among both white and Asian applicants, and the average Asian and average white applicant have basically identical stats. It is not "harder" for an Asian to get in than a white person.

Yeah- but it is 3094(for every roughly 7000 asians) vs 10,000(for roughly every 21000). Can you comprehend that there are less of us and we still get screwed over with an acceptance ratio lower than yours! We are at 45.9% and you are at roughly 49.1%. Like I said dude...Taaaaaaaaaadaaaaaaaaaaah!

Btw Old Mill is just mad cause he is a DO. Couldn't make it to MD so he is trying to take it out on minorities. 🙂 Isn't that rigth Mill?

 

[Siggy]

Yeah- but it is 3094(for every roughly 7000 asians) vs 10,000(for roughly every 21000). Can you comprehend that there are less of us and we still get screwed over with an acceptance ratio lower than yours! We are at 45.9% and you are at roughly 49.1%. Like I said dude...Taaaaaaaaaadaaaaaaaaaaah!

Btw Old Mill is just mad cause he is a DO. Couldn't make it to MD so he is trying to take it out on minorities. 🙂 Isn't that rigth Mill?

OMG, 4%! Thats racist. No minority left behind...

/sarcasm

AA is racist. It is a policy to give one race a hand up over another. Get over it. AA should die in a fire.

 

[flash]

agree 100%. This is a country of opportunity. We all have obstacles of our own to overcome (incl. socioeconomic, abusive/absent parents, language barriers, etc). Government or AA never changes/lift lives. Only determination and the will of the individual person has the power to transform lives. I'd like to see us move in a direction where race doesn't matter at all.

I know someone will call me a bigot or something ridiculous, but I think the African American community would be better served by focusing on itself, looking inward and taking personal responsibility for the high drop out rates, crime rates, teen pregnancy rates, and educational problems. They would be better served by working to create a culture where the value of education (not just staying in school, but studying and wanting to learn) is stressed at a young age. Parents and community need to do more and ask:

Why are children not learning fundamentals? It's not spending per student.
Why are they choosing a life of crime? No one if forcing them.
Why are they getting pregnant, in single parent households?

The answer, imo, is not racism or $$$. In the vein of Bill Cosby's recently comments, the answer is in the mirror.

There are very powerful forces at play, imo, that want to keep African Americans dependent on gov't, AA and portray their themselves as victims - make no mistake about it (e.g., black english, standardized test favor whites). I have yet to see black community leaders say "the Secretary of State, Supreme Court Judge and National Security Advisor are great role models, examples of people of color that have achieved against the odds and overcome obstacles". WHY NOT?

 

[acl3623]

Just because he didn't get into medical school and is now doing DO he is taking it out on us.

youre an as$

Btw Old Mill is just mad cause he is a DO. Couldn't make it to MD so he is trying to take it out on minorities. Isn't that rigth Mill?

your argument for AA is ******ed, you dont even know where you stand yourself. youre just pissed cause you were born asian american and you have the common sense of a 15 year old...as$hat

 

[flash]

youre an as$

your argument for AA is ******ed, you dont even know where you stand yourself. youre just pissed cause you were born asian american and you have the common sense of a 15 year old...as$hat

you forgot the taaadddaahh! 😎

 

[oudoc08]

GPA and MCAT-though you may think they are- are not the absolutely definitive measure of becomming the best doctor in every community. And while your may feel that color is not good for anything in med school applications I would like to call to your attention 2 things.

1. You say "stand on your own two feet." You are competing with people whose forefathers heads you stand on. Don't tell me that you don't have educated parents. Don't tell me your parents are not middle class or even upper class. And don't tell me that you do not have a white "icon" who is a doctor. Because the truth is that you have atleast 2 out of these three if not all three things going for you!
.

Being a SOUTH ASIAN MALE(which I am) I am more screwed than you are so please stfu.

Actually, my dad only finished 9th grade, and was a carpenter all his life (very smart, but not formally educated), and my mom graduated high school, and was a homemaker the majority of her life. She started working later in life after my dad retired cleaning hotel rooms. I don't think they ever had a total combined income greater than $25,000/year.

They are awesome people, but middle/upper class? Well educated?

In addition, the only person I ever knew growing up who was a "doctor" of some kind, was a cousin who lived halfway across the countr who was a chiropractor.

Although strangely enough, I didn't feel "underprivileged". I'm so sorry that you feel your race, somehow makes you feel that way, and that you feel the need to make rash assumptions about those with whom you are competing.

And to all of those endless,tired posts that just wish the adcoms would get over the whole GPA, MCAT thing. The fact is, is that there are tons of qualified candidates, and only so many slots. Yes there are people that get rejected that would make great doctors. No, test scores don't reflect how good of a doctor you would be, but the fact is, in order to make it through medical school, you have to be able to take hard tests. The MCAT sucked, but from what I hear about Step 1, it makes the MCAT look like the PSAT's. In addition, the regular tests in med school are hard. So, if you're not a good test taker as evidenced by your MCAT score, there is a good chance that you won't do well on the class tests and boards as well (actually, the correlation between MCAT and Step 1 is highly statistically significant). Med schools, like it or not, are ranked on Step 1 performance, as this makes them attractive to prospective students. So, the fact is, the process is hard, the stakes are high, and you can bitch all day long about the methods, but the methods are still what is going to get you in or make you reapply next year.

 

[Cat's Meow]

OMG, 4%! Thats racist. No minority left behind...

/sarcasm

AA is racist. It is a policy to give one race a hand up over another. Get over it. AA should die in a fire.

That is not a legitimate argument...it's just a lot of rhetoric.

 

[swifteagle43]

That is not a legitimate argument...it's just a lot of rhetoric.

Trust me. They are just greedy and they are trying to philosophize their greediness. Unfortuantely for them they even suck at that!

The best come back response for my argument I have gotten is them calling me an "As$ hat." I would like to congratulate that kid and say I feel 100X more reaffirmed in my beliefs because this was the best you could come up with. 🙂

And yes 4% is a BIG difference in acceptance rates. When it comes down a three hundred seats and it just happens to be YOUR seat(this is how those greedy people think about AA...some black kid taking THEIR seat).

 

[JDAWG07]

This is true, but most Jewish families affected by the Holocaust have been financially compensated--and very well--by the German gov't and private banks. I know that no sum of $$$ can make up for the horrors of genocide, but it has helped Jews to regain their position in professional and academic professions.

Blacks have yet to receive $$$ for the days of slavery.

Most Jewish families were never financially compensated. Since 1950, compensation programs have existed from the German govt. and other funds/trusts. The monetary amounts for these have been incredibly small and most Jewish Hollocaust survivors can not qualify for the programs. Most of the restitution funds actually have gone towards educational purposes so that the genocide will be remembered. Unfortunately, many critics have even gone so far as to accuse of the Jews of exploiting the Holocaust for money.

My father's parents were dirt poor after emigrating from Germany(his father even survived Aushwicz). After settling in America, his father worked as a baker until his death. His Mother's family was incredibly wealthy in Germany before the war and not one cent of their money was ever recovered.

Jews have advanced in society because of their cultural emphasis on education and professional development. Accumulating Jewish wealth that is stereotypical has only existed for the last half century. Before that, most Jewish families were very poor and struggled to make ends meet. My great-uncle from my mother's side, an ex-boxer, actually remembers when all of the urban slums were populated by Jews in the early part of the century. He said in his time, most of the great boxers were Jewish, ironic since professional and competitive sports is almost devoid of any Jewish representation today.

 

[Aristotle]

I think its sad that all of you are just focused on what color the person next to you is. All you can think about is the race of the med school applicants. You should be more focused on making it into med school based on your achievements than worrying about AA.

 

[MWillie]

Stop feeding the trool!

 

[Cat's Meow]

Most Jewish families were never financially compensated. Since 1950, compensation programs have existed from the German govt. and other funds/trusts. The monetary amounts for these have been incredibly small and most Jewish Hollocaust survivors can not qualify for the programs. Most of the restitution funds actually have gone towards educational purposes so that the genocide will be remembered. Unfortunately, many critics have even gone so far as to accuse of the Jews of exploiting the Holocaust for money.

My father's parents were dirt poor after emigrating from Germany(his father even survived Aushwicz). After settling in America, his father worked as a baker until his death. His Mother's family was incredibly wealthy in Germany before the war and not one cent of their money was ever recovered.

Jews have advanced in society because of their cultural emphasis on education and professional development. Accumulating Jewish wealth that is stereotypical has only existed for the last half century. Before that, most Jewish families were very poor and struggled to make ends meet. My great-uncle from my mother's side, an ex-boxer, actually remembers when all of the urban slums were populated by Jews in the early part of the century. He said in his time, most of the great boxers were Jewish, ironic since professional and competitive sports is almost devoid of any Jewish representation today.

Hmm...you bring up some interesting points. I partly agree with you.

However, do you think that minorities in this society have a lack of emphasis on higher education, and that this had lead to their paucity in higher education?

I think that even if black or Latino families encourage their children to do well, there are societal barriers. Whether we like it or not, racism--especially against blacks and Latinos--is prevalent in this society; and this racism is a significant barrier preventing these kids from doing well.

 

[JDAWG07]

Hmm...you bring up some interesting points. I partly agree with you.

However, do you think that minorities in this society have a lack of emphasis on higher education, and that this had lead to their paucity in higher education?

I think that even if black or Latino families encourage their children to do well, there are societal barriers. Whether we like it or not, racism--especially against blacks and Latinos--is prevalent in this society; and this racism is a significant barrier preventing these kids from doing well.

I do agree that there are barriers against minorities and predujices that discourage achievement, especially among blacks and hispanics. However, I think more of what has been keeping them from succeeding in today's world is a lack of cultural emphasis on education. In all fairness, this has been because in the past, it truly was impossible to ascend in life because of racism. Although that's still a large problem, I think it is a minor one in comparison to internal culture. Let's face it. For today's poor urban black youth, life is hard. His parents struggle to put food on the table. And his peers and the surrounding culture encourage him to prove his worth in areas other than academics - i.e. sports, music, toughness. All the while, he must avoid getting involved in drugs and gangs, and look out for his safety. Doing his schoolwork falls by the wayside on his priority list.

It's not that poor urban blacks and hispanics don't aspire to ascend out of the ghetto. They would love to. It's just that around them, they don't see anyone doing it all through higher education. Instead the media showcases all professional atheletes and music artists. And everyone around them is showcasing their skills in basketball or music, hoping to follow in the footsteps of their role models on T.V. For the vast majority that aren't able to make it, they usually sadly accept their poor life in the ghetto. What I believe the purpose of A.A. to be is to put the emphasis that is in athletics and music on the blackboard. If we, as a society, can spur a significant amount of minority professionals, then hopefully they can act as role models for these kids.

 

[acl3623]

The best come back response for my argument I have gotten is them calling me an "As$ hat." I would like to congratulate that kid and say I feel 100X more reaffirmed in my beliefs because this was the best you could come up with. 🙂

it wasnt a comeback to your argument at all douchebag..because you dont have any.. i was just merely calling you that because youre a tool for taking a personal jab at old mill about being a DO when you couldnt figure out your own argument on AA...you just dont have a ****ing clue... hey, can you tell us how you did on your SAT again??? please??
whiny little bi+ches like you are what make us minorities look bad.

 

[sylvamoon]

really nice how all these folks think they can talk about what the problem is in the black and hispanic communities when they probably haven't interacted with blacks and hispanics a day in their lives. this thread should be closed. 👎

 

[Cat's Meow]

I do agree that there are barriers against minorities and predujices that discourage achievement, especially among blacks and hispanics. However, I think more of what has been keeping them from succeeding in today's world is a lack of cultural emphasis on education. In all fairness, this has been because in the past, it truly was impossible to ascend in life because of racism. Although that's still a large problem, I think it is a minor one in comparison to internal culture. Let's face it. For today's poor urban black youth, life is hard. His parents struggle to put food on the table. And his peers and the surrounding culture encourage him to prove his worth in areas other than academics - i.e. sports, music, toughness. All the while, he must avoid getting involved in drugs and gangs, and look out for his safety. Doing his schoolwork falls by the wayside on his priority list.

It's not that poor urban blacks and hispanics don't aspire to ascend out of the ghetto. They would love to. It's just that around them, they don't see anyone doing it all through higher education. Instead the media showcases all professional atheletes and music artists. And everyone around them is showcasing their skills in basketball or music, hoping to follow in the footsteps of their role models on T.V. For the vast majority that aren't able to make it, they usually sadly accept their poor life in the ghetto. What I believe the purpose of A.A. to be is to put the emphasis that is in athletics and music on the blackboard. If we, as a society, can spur a significant amount of minority professionals, then hopefully they can act as role models for these kids.

Great post 👍 🙂 👍

 

[Siggy]

That is not a legitimate argument...it's just a lot of rhetoric.

What would you call a program that systematically gives whites and advantage of over people with darker skin?

Why can this term not be used when the preference is the other way?

 

[Hoya11]

Actually, my dad only finished 9th grade, and was a carpenter all his life (very smart, but not formally educated), and my mom graduated high school, and was a homemaker the majority of her life. She started working later in life after my dad retired cleaning hotel rooms. I don't think they ever had a total combined income greater than $25,000/year.

They are awesome people, but middle/upper class? Well educated?

In addition, the only person I ever knew growing up who was a "doctor" of some kind, was a cousin who lived halfway across the countr who was a chiropractor.

Although strangely enough, I didn't feel "underprivileged". I'm so sorry that you feel your race, somehow makes you feel that way, and that you feel the need to make rash assumptions about those with whom you are competing.

And to all of those endless,tired posts that just wish the adcoms would get over the whole GPA, MCAT thing. The fact is, is that there are tons of qualified candidates, and only so many slots. Yes there are people that get rejected that would make great doctors. No, test scores don't reflect how good of a doctor you would be, but the fact is, in order to make it through medical school, you have to be able to take hard tests. The MCAT sucked, but from what I hear about Step 1, it makes the MCAT look like the PSAT's. In addition, the regular tests in med school are hard. So, if you're not a good test taker as evidenced by your MCAT score, there is a good chance that you won't do well on the class tests and boards as well (actually, the correlation between MCAT and Step 1 is highly statistically significant). Med schools, like it or not, are ranked on Step 1 performance, as this makes them attractive to prospective students. So, the fact is, the process is hard, the stakes are high, and you can bitch all day long about the methods, but the methods are still what is going to get you in or make you reapply next year.

That "reality" argument is so BS, its the reason things will never change as long as you continue to eat **** with a smile on your face. If the rules of the game are unjust, say so, dont just play by the rules to win the game at whatever the cost.

 

[Cat's Meow]

What would you call a program that systematically gives whites and advantage of over people with darker skin?

Why can this term not be used when the preference is the other way?

You're reducing a complex policy and history to a level of simplicity that does no justice to the issue at hand.

There is much more to AA...

 

[ku06]

I don't think anyone here is against helping those who are in the ghettos to get out because they have struggled hard against drugs, peer pressure, and other problems that many of us cannot relate too. But I do think that what pisses people off about AA is that the ones who are taking advantage of it are not from the ghetto. I went to a Catholic private school. Many of my black classmates took advantage of AA. Is this fair? They are my next door neighbors and have had every oppurtunity that I have had.

I feel that AA is good in theory, but does not work in real life because people need to police themselves. One of the kids from my school who took advantage of AA came from a family with both mother and father as doctors. I don't know about you, but their parents made a hell of a lot more than my parents ever did and ever will. This person had every oppurtunity growing up and then even more because of skin color. Meanwhile, there was some kid who was not able to raise himself out of poverty because the schools didn't want him compared to the kid with two doctors as parents. Defeats the whole purpose of AA, if it is just creating a small, unchanging class of elites.

 

[ilim01]

Sarah, you completely misinterpreted my point (I think deliberately). Refer back to my earlier post, in which I asked you to check out the stats before replying.

And I DO NOt think that AA is a reparation for slavery, cmmon, that happened hundred of years ago, and probably every ethnic group could find some injustice that was perpetrated on them in the past. It is merely here to correct the inequality that esists at this point in time.

ANd when we talk of AA applied across all fields (as it is right now), yes I do believe that it will combat the inner city ghettoization and poverty. Plus statistically more balck med school graduates go back to work in underserved areas.

Also an argument arose over whether Asians applicants are being discriminated against. I did an internet search and according to http://www.ceousa.org/ the center of equality and opportunity,
a report titled : "Racial and Ethnic Preferences in Admissions
at Five Public Medical Schools"

concludes that :
"Asians have the lowest probability of admission"

for example in Michigan state college of medicine:
"As displayed in Figure 4, the MSU probabilities for admission in 1999 greatly favored black and Hispanic applicants over Asians and whites, as they did in 1997. Black applicants with a total MCAT score of 25 and a science GPA of 3.00 had a 20 percent chance of admission in 1999. Hispanics with those credentials had an 11 percent chance, while the Asian and white
probability for admission was 1 and 2 percent, respectively. A black applicant with an MCAT total score of 30 and a 3.25 science GPA had a 43 percent chance, compared to 26 percent for Hispanics, 3 percent for Asians, and 5 percent for whites."

SO there you go, equally qualified Asians have a slightly lower chance of admissions that whites. (Racism iwhich must be intrinsic the predominantly white admissions committees)

 

[Siggy]

You're reducing a complex policy and history to a level of simplicity that does no justice to the issue at hand.

There is much more to AA...

And you are supporting a double standard that rises one race over another.

 

[sylvamoon]

I don't think anyone here is against helping those who are in the ghettos to get out because they have struggled hard against drugs, peer pressure, and other problems that many of us cannot relate too. But I do think that what pisses people off about AA is that the ones who are taking advantage of it are not from the ghetto. I went to a Catholic private school. Many of my black classmates took advantage of AA. Is this fair? They are my next door neighbors and have had every oppurtunity that I have had.

I feel that AA is good in theory, but does not work in real life because people need to police themselves. One of the kids from my school who took advantage of AA came from a family with both mother and father as doctors. I don't know about you, but their parents made a hell of a lot more than my parents ever did and ever will. This person had every oppurtunity growing up and then even more because of skin color. Meanwhile, there was some kid who was not able to raise himself out of poverty because the schools didn't want him compared to the kid with two doctors as parents. Defeats the whole purpose of AA, if it is just creating a small, unchanging class of elites.

how do your classmates "take advantage of affirmative action"? that is so ridiculous!!