PTs and Chiropractors

utstudent said:

It seems to me that chiropractors are losing popularity and respect in the medical field and that physical therapists are gaining popularity and respect. I was surprised to see that there are no forums on here for chiropractors. I always saw these two professions as somewhat related. What i like more about PT is that there is more of a focus on strengthening the patient so that there is less chance of injury in the future. I was just wandering what the future holds for chiropractic practice seeing that PTs are also manipulating the joints but seem to have more treatments to offer to rehabilitating patients.

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It seems to me that chiropractors are losing popularity and respect in the medical field

It is the opposite. Chiropractors are gaining respect not losing it. Look back to the seventies and eighties when the AMA was involved in a conspiracy to abolish the chiropractic profession. After being found guilty of this, the doors opened to receive and give refers to chiropractors. More professions work with chiropractors today more than ever. Chiropractic has gained much public awareness and today is considered mainstream. Chiropractors are part of many major professional sports medical teams and are also in hospitals now. So I again would have to disagree that chiropractors are losing there popularity or respect from the medical community.

and that physical therapists are gaining popularity and respect.

That may be true, I really do not know.

I was surprised to see that there are no forums on here for chiropractors.

Me too. Never did get an explanation on why it is.

I always saw these two professions as somewhat related.

Some aspects yes and in some other aspects no.

What i like more about PT is that there is more of a focus on strengthening the patient so that there is less chance of injury in the future.

I guess this is true for the most part depending on the type of therapist you see. Similarly, it depends on the type of chiropractor you see. Many chiropractors do rehab in their offices as well.

I was just wandering what the future holds for chiropractic practice seeing that PTs are also manipulating the joints but seem to have more treatments to offer to rehabilitating patients.

I really don't see the problem anymore. I use to think of the DPT as a threat but not really anymore. Chiropractors have many diplomate programs specializing in all different aspects of NMS healthcare. Chiropractors have an orthopedist diplomate program, a sports physician program and a diplomate in rehabilitation as well. There is a wide variety of treatments offered. There are also diplomates in nutrition, acupuncture, neurology and in radiology to name a few more. I would say that chiropractors have a larger number of treatments and treatment options available than a therapist due to their larger scope of practice, direct access, and insurance reimbursement without referral. As far as physical therapists doing manipulations, I would say its similar probably to osteopath techniques rather than the trademark HVLA chiropractic techniques. Chiropractic pretty much owns the manipulation market as most all general public know it's our stock of the trade. Doesn't mean there aren't a limited number of good PT manipulators but you don't learn surgery at a weekend seminar and you don't learn how to do manipulation in a weekend either.

BackTalk said:

It seems to me that chiropractors are losing popularity and respect in the medical field

It is the opposite..

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The above response is obviously very pro-chiropractic by someone in or wanting to be in that field. If you want to learn manipulation, go to DO school.....osteopaths know manipulation and medicine; at best chiropractors know how to crack bones and extricate money from wallets.

There is no comparison between Physical Therapists and Chiropractors. PTs are usually top in their class, often have to compete to get into their programs, and actively use a tremendous wealth of knowledge in the course of their daily work. Chiropractors, I don't think, even have to finish college....they can get into school with mediocre grades, and are seriously wanting in medical knowledge. Moreover, chiropractors have classes in school on how to make more money...that is ludicrous. Those "diplomate" classes? What a load of horse*&#%.

Anyone seriously wanting to compare these fields should google up some stories of chiropractors who left the field (or even chiro school). Also, check out www.chirobase.org.

I admit I am not educated on the role of chiropractors, but I do remember something about FSU (my alma mater) shooting down a proposed bill to build a new chiropractic school. Here is an article I found about it if anyone's interested. Any thoughts or recent news about it?


http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/23/06/07.html

dry dre said:

The above response is obviously very pro-chiropractic by someone in or wanting to be in that field. If you want to learn manipulation, go to DO school.....osteopaths know manipulation and medicine; at best chiropractors know how to crack bones and extricate money from wallets.

There is no comparison between Physical Therapists and Chiropractors. PTs are usually top in their class, often have to compete to get into their programs, and actively use a tremendous wealth of knowledge in the course of their daily work. Chiropractors, I don't think, even have to finish college....they can get into school with mediocre grades, and are seriously wanting in medical knowledge. Moreover, chiropractors have classes in school on how to make more money...that is ludicrous. Those "diplomate" classes? What a load of horse*&#%.

Anyone seriously wanting to compare these fields should google up some stories of chiropractors who left the field (or even chiro school). Also, check out www.chirobase.org.

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If you want to learn manipulation, go to DO school.....osteopaths know manipulation and medicine; at best chiropractors know how to crack bones and extricate money from wallets.

Why? So you can be a second rate chiropractor? Most DO's don't practice manipulation and most keep it buried in the closet.

Chiropractors, I don't think, even have to finish college....

That's just it numbnuts, you don't think. Yeah thats right, we just go on forever in college and even setup our practices while in college. In fact, I'm been practicing for over 6 years and still am in chiropractic school.

Moreover, chiropractors have classes in school on how to make more money...that is ludicrous. Those "diplomate" classes? What a load of horse*&#%.

Really, where did you read that? Could you post the article here so we can read it too?

Anyone seriously wanting to compare these fields should google up some stories of chiropractors who left the field (or even chiro school). Also, check out www.chirobase.org.

I agree with many things chirobase has on their website. It's a good source for exposing much of the quackery that plaques our profession. The stories there are rather pathetic of the DC's who quit the profession because they couldn't make it. Let me tell you, it don't matter what their profession is. They are total failures regardless of profession. Look at this Allen Botnick guy. What a pathetic loser. He has never moved on with his life and finds it his mission to whine and complain about chiropractic. The guy has no job nor has attempted to get a job in another field. He lives in his parent's basement and he will remain there and amount to absolutely nothing. So I agree with much that is said at chirobase but don't agree with the DC's and their pathetic stories. Its always easier to blame someone other than yourself.

I withdrew from a chiropractic college after a year and a half. I left because I couldn't deal with all the disagreement in the profession as well as the negativity outside.

There's pros and cons but in the end it wasn't for me. I'm changing careers to either DO or PT.

One good thing I realized in chiropractic school is that most of the students would do anything in their power to help a patient and would take it very personal if they couldn't help them. But I had friends that were obsessed with subluxation and other friends who didn't believe at all and there I was in the middle. Instead of studying together, we all argued are points. Not good.

The biggest problem with chiropractic is the low admission standards. It attracts a lot more immature students (like myself when I enrolled). Chiropractic educations is no joke, the first couple of years are just as strenuous as the first couple years of med. school (I have friends in med school). When chiropractic colleges allow someone to enroll with only an associates degree and a 2.0 gpa, that student is in for a reality check when they start the chiropractic curriculum.

The profession may be heading in a good direction and get better, but as of now and in the next decade I wouldn't advice anyone to the profession.

That's my experience and $0.02. (NOT INTENDED TO OFFEND ANYONE)

dry dre said:

The above response is obviously very pro-chiropractic by someone in or wanting to be in that field. If you want to learn manipulation, go to DO school.....osteopaths know manipulation and medicine; at best chiropractors know how to crack bones and extricate money from wallets.

There is no comparison between Physical Therapists and Chiropractors. PTs are usually top in their class, often have to compete to get into their programs, and actively use a tremendous wealth of knowledge in the course of their daily work. Chiropractors, I don't think, even have to finish college....they can get into school with mediocre grades, and are seriously wanting in medical knowledge. Moreover, chiropractors have classes in school on how to make more money...that is ludicrous. Those "diplomate" classes? What a load of horse*&#%.

Anyone seriously wanting to compare these fields should google up some stories of chiropractors who left the field (or even chiro school). Also, check out www.chirobase.org.

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I agree! Despite some of the overlapping of services and care, PTs are light years ahead in training and knowledge. PT is trained to provide care in both inpatient and outpatient care and must be not only knowledgeable about physical ailments, but conversant with pathology and disease. In PT school, you'll do more than learn about them in a class room, you'll be able to treat the patients in a hospital or outpatient setting. Further, it has been my experience that PT's have more tools at there disposal to treat conditions both manually, with modalities, and exercises. Further the evaluation skills of a PT are impressive. Consider that an initial evaluation performed by a Physical Therapist often times takes 30 min to one hour to complete. When I use to see a chiropractor for a condition, I would be lucky to get 15 minutes out of them on an initial evaluation and reflecting back, they weren’t very thorough. I'm just not sure they have the same ability. It would be interesting to see how a Chiropractor would assess somebody who had a shoulder injury vs. how a physical therapist would assess it. Further, it would be interesting to see how a chiropractor assesses a back injury vs. how a physical therapist would evaluate it. Without actually conducting a study, I hypothesize that the Physical therapist would be much more comprehensive.
Physical Therapists are in a great position to add manipulation into there practice simply because they already have extensive training in manual therapy and treatment. I think this is why it is such an easy addition to the education of physical therapy training. To answer your question, I believe physical therapy is currently very strong and will continue to grow taking more and more of what's available in the market. As far as Chiropractic, it will always be around and may continue to build relationships in mainstream healthcare. I'm just not sure how much more the profession can be developed?

Dr. Botnick's rebuttle (from his skeptical discussion forum chirotalk.proboards3.com):

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=cult&action=display&num=1113340927&start=0

"This Backtalk guy is an ignorant fool who is incorrectly trying to minimize the criticism of chirobase by misrepresenting all the critics as disgruntled losers. This should be a big red flag to the MD students there that his arguments are weak.

For example, one author named William Lattanzie was a student in DO school before he passed away.

I don't live in a basement and I have had jobs in other fields (pharmaceutical clinical research). Regardless, whether or not someone makes a successful transition out of chiropractic (which certainly is difficult because it is a degree that does not transfer easily into legitimate fields and is not a reflection on the character of the student-I was magna cum laude at the Life University College of Chiropractic in Marietta GA) has nothing to do with whether or not specific complaints are valid. This is just an ad homenem attack by a coward who won't use his real name."

BackTalk said:

That's just it numbnuts, you don't think.

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For those that don't have access to my PM inbox, the follwing is this mature guy's PM to me:

you're a ****in idiot.

I haven't seen so much name calling since....6th grade?

I agree! Despite some of the overlapping of services and care, PTs are light years ahead in training and knowledge.

Really, how so?

Further, it has been my experience that PT's have more tools at there disposal to treat conditions both manually, with modalities, and exercises.

Really, like what?

Further the evaluation skills of a PT are impressive. Consider that an initial evaluation performed by a Physical Therapist often times takes 30 min to one hour to complete. When I use to see a chiropractor for a condition, I would be lucky to get 15 minutes out of them on an initial evaluation and reflecting back, they weren’t very thorough.

Oh gee you got a 30 min exam, that's nice. Maybe your DC didn't want to waste your time and cut and went straight to the problem at hand. When was the last time you went to a medical doctor who spent 30 minutes with you?? Probably never. Its "whats the problem, heres a prescription, follow-up in two weeks". All of which probably took less than three minutes to review your chart, nurse's history on you, vitals CC and make a decision and send you on your way.

I'm just not sure they have the same ability. It would be interesting to see how a Chiropractor would assess somebody who had a shoulder injury vs. how a physical therapist would assess it. Further, it would be interesting to see how a chiropractor assesses a back injury vs. how a physical therapist would evaluate it.

That would be very interesting. I would love to see it.

I hypothesize that the Physical therapist would be much more comprehensive.

Just compare the two curriculums and you will have your answer.

Physical Therapists are in a great position to add manipulation into there practice simply because they already have extensive training in manual therapy and treatment.

Define extensive training. The physical therapists may want to expand into the chiropractic realm but it probably won't happen as DC's are very territorial and defensive by nature. Every piece of legislation they attempt to pass will be fought as chiropractors tend to be very aggressive due to the fact that chiropractic is male dominated. The PT profession is more female dominate and less aggressive.

I think this is why it is such an easy addition to the education of physical therapy training. To answer your question, I believe physical therapy is currently very strong and will continue to grow taking more and more of what's available in the market.

I doubt it. First they need direct access. In some states they have it but it is meaningless as insurance coverage requires a referral. People will not go to PT and shovel out $200 dollars a visit for some modalities and exercises they are told to go and do. It's not going to happen. Second of all, the medical profession will lose office visits and money if PT's are allowed to have direct access and insurance reimbursement without referral. They are the gatekeepers of the PT profession. The patient has to see the MD first and then they decide on PT. It would be a big loss for them if the patient bypassed the MD and went straight to the PT. So every time the physical therapy profession pushes for expanded scope and or direct access with insurance coverage without referral, guess who will be teaming up with the chiropractors to make sure the legislation is defeated? Its all politics. I think even with chiropractics internal problems, they will continue to grow and establish themselves as the leaders in non-surgical neuromusculoskeletal healthcare. Physical therapists in my opinion need to be more concerned with rehabbing stroke patients or patients who have had heart attacks and or similar cases, than trying to attempt to become experts in manipulative medicine overnight.

As far as Chiropractic, it will always be around and may continue to build relationships in mainstream healthcare. I'm just not sure how much more the profession can be developed?

I think there is always room for advancement. Listen, we are on our own and have to look out for our best interests. It's good that PTs want to advance there education and scope of practice but I can't allow that to happen if it is at the expense of my profession. Sorry.

you're a ****in idiot.

I doubt anyone is going to disagree on the fact that you're indeed an idiot.

closing due to inappropriate behavior.