Educate DO's and MD's Together?????

drusso · May 18, 2005

From today's Arizona Republic Newspaper:

Educate MDs and DOs together

May. 18, 2005 12:00 AM

Everyone agrees that Arizona will need more doctors in the near future.

The initial capital needed to start a branch medical school of the University of Arizona is currently unavailable. The monies appropriated by the Legislature will underfund even the start-up costs for the proposed medical school.

Until there are sufficient funds available to start the branch UA medical school (an estimated $80 million) why not negotiate with the president of Midwestern University in Glendale, Dr. Kathleen Goeppinger, to accept the initial medical degree students? advertisement

In the doctorate in osteopathic medicine and the doctorate in medicine, the first two years of basic science are essentially the same.

Some of the $7 million appropriated by the Legislature could be used to expand resources at Midwestern to accommodate the additional students. Midwestern has an excellent basic science program already in place.

After the two-year science program is completed the DO and MD students could utilize the clinical facilities of the Phoenix hospitals to complete their medical education.

To my knowledge, this would be a first cooperative effort of DO and MD medical education that would literally save millions of taxpayer dollars and help solve Arizona's imminent need for more physicians.

- William E. Crisp, MD, F.A.C.S., Paradise Valley
The writer is a former president of the Arizona Medical Society.

bmcgilligan · May 18, 2005

How in the world would they determine who gets the MD and who gets the DO? I know that DOs and MDs are basically the same nowadays, but given the choice, how many would really choose the DO over the MD? This doesn't make sense.

Fenrezz · May 18, 2005

Don't they already do that at Michigan State? I think the DO and MD students take the same classes together for the first 2 years. Seems to work there pretty well, according to a student from MSU I spoke to.

Why not in Arizona too?

sveg13 · May 18, 2005

Yeah, at MSU CHM the first two years of MD and DO are together. but from what I hear the two batches of students don't really mix too much (not saying it isn't an effective method of teaching) but just that they don't interact with each other. Since it is the same material, it makes sense to have a single lecture and cut costs.

Fantasy Sports · May 18, 2005

Arizona only has one major academic medical center, and Nevada doesn't really have one.

These states can keep trying to cut corners and fall completely out of the biotech race, or they can make an investment in their economic future by coming up with the funds to build a full medical center.

Seems like they would rather cut corners... not a good sign if you want to be a state with a modern economy.

exmike · May 18, 2005

Fenrezz said:
Don't they already do that at Michigan State? I think the DO and MD students take the same classes together for the first 2 years. Seems to work there pretty well, according to a student from MSU I spoke to.

Why not in Arizona too?

the MD and DO students have separate lecture halls at MSU

OSUdoc08 · May 18, 2005

exmike said:
the MD and DO students have separate lecture halls at MSU

Seperate but equal.

I think they should bus students to other schools.

sga814 · May 18, 2005

I feel that this would an excellent way to educate better DO's. Let's face facts- a good deal of would-be MD students apply to DO school as a second choice (rarely is the opposite true - this fact from Gevitz's DO book). So.. implicating this kind of system (nationwide perhaps) would result in more "would-be DO" students in DO school.. leading to professionals who are confident with their choice and truly believe in the validity and utility of their unique education.

Would it result in fewer DO students? Probably at first, but as soon as more and more people become aware of the fact these "so-called doctors" take the same exact classes WITH (opposed to "as") MD students, the DO path would eventually gain more popularity and perhaps at some point in the future, there would be equal numbers of DO's and MD's.

Just some optimistic food for thought.

ddmo · May 18, 2005

exmike said:
the MD and DO students have separate lecture halls at MSU

Different "home" halls, but all the courses are taught together in the first year. Curriculum is segregated during second year.

No, not much mixing at all. There is definitely a degree of animosity as I am close to people in both.
Osteos:"The CHMers are just no fun. They act weird and never go out to the bars."
CHMers:"The Osteos aren't as smart as us. They can avg. 2% less to pass."

Seem like generalizations from what I have observed, just glad I'm not dealing with it.

Phil Anthropist · May 18, 2005

When UMDNJ's School of Osteopathic Medicine was founded, the DO students spent their first two years at UMDNJ Rutgers Medical School (now UMDNJ Robert Wood Johnson).

UMDNJ-RWJ and UMDNJ-SOM currently share the same Neuroscience professor.

MachoPanchoMan · May 19, 2005

I'm an undergrad at MSU, but I have a few friends in their first year of the DO school. A few of the classes they take are mixed between the two colleges (COM and CHM). It's true that there's some animosity - they tend to sit on separate sides of the room. It seems silly to me, but my friends think the MD kids are jerks, which I'm sure doesn't help anything.

The answer to "How in the world would they determine who gets the MD and who gets the DO?" seems simple. If you're going to educate DOs and MDs together, they're not going to take all of the same classes. Obviously, the DO students would still have to take OMM.

Boomer · May 19, 2005

drusso said:
From today's Arizona Republic Newspaper:

Educate MDs and DOs together

Until there are sufficient funds available to start the branch UA medical school (an estimated $80 million) why not negotiate with the president of Midwestern University in Glendale, Dr. Kathleen Goeppinger, to accept the initial medical degree students?

- William E. Crisp, MD, F.A.C.S., Paradise Valley
The writer is a former president of the Arizona Medical Society.

Ummm...because the U of A has spent so much energy blocking AZCOM students from its rotation sites, that getting MWU to agree to this would be damn near impossible.

synapse · May 19, 2005

OSUdoc08 said:
Seperate but equal.

I think they should bus students to other schools.

lol

eralza · May 19, 2005

MachoPanchoMan said:
It's true that there's some animosity - they tend to sit on separate sides of the room. It seems silly to me, but my friends think the MD kids are jerks, which I'm sure doesn't help anything.

Strange to think that when they start practicing, MD's and DO's will work side by side, but when they are learning the material, there is an invisible wall.

"Why can't we all just get along?!" Anyone for a soothing round of Kumbya? 😍

lfesiam · May 19, 2005

In our society today, the differences are blurring and mixing into the grey area. Essentially, DOs and MDs are the same, but the requirement in getting into a DO school and a MD school is different base on statistics (MD schools usually set a minimum gpa/mcat while DO schools look at more than grades). In my opionion, they should combine DO and MD into a single entity. In reality, that would not happen anytime soon since the current MD society does not fully accept certain specific clinical practices & manipulations of DO.

sigh...can't we all just get along. 👍

this is coming from an MD MS1

PS: MD also treat the whole person not just the disease!!!

crys20 · May 19, 2005

that cracks me up that the MDs and DOs sit on opposite sides of the room!

Law2Doc · May 19, 2005

OSUdoc08 said:
Seperate but equal.

I think they should bus students to other schools.

Perhaps they should have separate water fountains too. 🙄
I actually wonder whether a combined program such as described would lessen or increase the animosity between MDs and DOs. If people are really grouping up by degree as suggested in the prior posts, I suspect the latter...

medicine1 · May 19, 2005

The State should invest in AZCOM. If they need more doctors, let AZCOM produce more doctors. I don't think allopathic and osteopathic students should go to the same school.

Just my 2 cents.

DOPEDERSON · May 19, 2005

Law2Doc said:
Perhaps they should have separate water fountains too. 🙄
I actually wonder whether a combined program such as described would lessen or increase the animosity between MDs and DOs. If people are really grouping up by degree as suggested in the prior posts, I suspect the latter...

I know for damn sure that I would not sit next to any MD students if I were entering a combine program. I would just feel inferior and constantly worry if they were making fun of me behind my back. Plus, I have heard that they tend to smell like anatomy lab even after they shower. Something to do with the water they drink but thats just what I have heard
And one last shot across the bow, it wasnt a DO who invented blood letting as a way to heal sore throats. Come here little boy let me bleed you! WTF?

joe6102 · May 19, 2005

DOPEDERSON said:
I know for damn sure that I would not sit next to any MD students if I were entering a combine program. I would just feel inferior and constantly worry if they were making fun of me behind my back. Plus, I have heard that they tend to smell like anatomy lab even after they shower. Something to do with the water they drink but thats just what I have heard
And one last shot across the bow, it wasnt a DO who invented blood letting as a way to heal sore throats. Come here little boy let me bleed you! WTF?

Posts like this are the reason MD vs DO threads degrade quickly into DO and MD bashing.

DOPEDERSON · May 19, 2005

joe6102 said:
Posts like this are the reason MD vs DO threads degrade quickly into DO and MD bashing.

and... someone can't take a joke. Its called sarcasm and it was directed at the statement made early about the students in combined programs who self segregate. Or dont you have a sense of humor? For the record I am not into MD or DO bashing or any bashing for that matter. But thanks dad.

LSU-Tech · May 19, 2005

DOPEDERSON said:
I know for damn sure that I would not sit next to any MD students if I were entering a combine program. I would just feel inferior and constantly worry if they were making fun of me behind my back. Plus, I have heard that they tend to smell like anatomy lab even after they shower. Something to do with the water they drink but thats just what I have heard
And one last shot across the bow, it wasnt a DO who invented blood letting as a way to heal sore throats. Come here little boy let me bleed you! WTF?

Why would you feel inferior? In the end, its your choice to enroll in a DO program. If you think it is any less of a degree, perhaps you should apply to allopathic schools (if you have the stats). News flash, people only make fun of others when they know their getting to them. If you strongly believe in what the Osteopathic profession stands for, you will not think anything of what any MD student thinks about the DO philosophy. Instead, you will pity them for not seeing what you strongly believe is real. Im not saying I believe that manipulative therapy works. Im also not saying that it doesnt. However, I do believe some manipulative techniques have their place in medicine, while a huge part of them seem a bit too hocus pocus for me. Everyone needs to just grow up and quit arguing about who has the biggest degree, when in reality they are equal to everyone who is not a physician. Its so childish! If you ask me, people like you are keeping this prejudice thing between MDs and DOs going. Its not just the allopaths. Both groups need to meet in the middle. Of course the MDs are better known in society. They have been around a lot longer than the DOs. However, with new DO schools opening, the DO title will soon be a lot more common and perhaps it will one day be almost as common as the MD title.

As for as the issue at hand, I believe that integrating MDs and DOs for the first two years sounds like a great idea. The reason I think this is because when I was in high school, I went to an all white school. In return, I was somewhat prejudice. I disliked what I did not understand. However, when I went to college, and roomed with someone of a different race, I realized the ignorance behind the whole thing. I disliked what I knew nothing about. Now, I would not consider myself prejudice in the least. Of course people are weary of what they dont understand; its simply human nature to do so. I apologize for straying from the subject.

-Just the two cents of an allopathic med student. (This fall anyway)

Fenrezz · May 19, 2005

joe6102 said:
Posts like this are the reason MD vs DO threads degrade quickly into DO and MD bashing.

The funny thing is, there isn't anywhere near as much bashing nowadays as there used to be, from what I remember. It seems to me most allopathic students accept that fact that DO's exist and go on with their lives. Then, suddenly, one guy will post something about admission statistics and the thread goes to ****.

However, I have no objections to the MD/DO bashings that go on here. I think it's kind of healthy to have pre-med and medical students getting elevated blood pressures over theories, philosophies, and concerns about statistics (I myself am guilty of this, by the way). Keeps the blood pumping, and keeps students passionate about their future careers. It also helps re-affirms our delusions about why we want to be doctors. Makes for great reading, anyway. Much better than the "How long should my interview answers be?" threads.

Personally, I think the AOA and AMA should get together for once and organize a "Medical Rumble" day, where the nations future allopathic and osteopathic physicians meet on a muddy field and throw haymakers at each other, "Outsiders" style (or at least Detroit Pistons fan style). Let's beat the crap out of each other so that for at least one day we don't have to think about how much we hate our lives and regret our decisions to go into medicine. 👍

premyo2002 · May 19, 2005

lfesiam said:
In my opionion, they should combine DO and MD into a single entity. In reality, that would not happen anytime soon since the current MD society does not fully accept certain specific clinical practices & manipulations of DO.

They actually tried this in cali in the 70's, I didn't work out so well. From what I can remember, It turns out that some DO's are not just wanna-be MD's, but actually embrace their different education and DO title.

Do a search, I think its pretty well covered in the pre-Osteo forum.

joe6102 · May 19, 2005

DOPEDERSON said:
and... someone can't take a joke. Its called sarcasm and it was directed at the statement made early about the students in combined programs who self segregate. Or dont you have a sense of humor? For the record I am not into MD or DO bashing or any bashing for that matter. But thanks dad.

I'm not the only one, son. Sarcasm doesn't come through the internet very well. Try brackets like this: <sarcasm>That was a great post!</sarcasm>

lfesiam · May 19, 2005

"

premyo2002 said:
Do a search, I think its pretty well covered in the pre-Osteo forum.

"

I know about what happend in cali, premyo. That is the reason why I said that it will not happend anytime soon since it failed in cali. What happend was, many (more than half, 2/3 i believe) DO students & graduates from the former College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, Los Angeles, "turncoated" and traded in their DO title for an MD instead. Please refrain from assumption, I did a search and know about the merger well.

By the way, the merger took place in 1962 not 1970s, please get your facts straight.

"College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, Los Angeles. Founded 1914 by the merger of the Pacific College of Osteopathy and the Los Angeles College of Osteopathy. Converted to allopathic college in 1962. "
http://history.aoa-net.org/Education/collegehist.htm

DOPEDERSON · May 19, 2005

I would like to apologize for both of my prior posts if you found them inflammatory. That was not my intention. If you find yourself feeling this way continue reading for further clarification:

LSU-Tech said:
Why would you feel inferior? In the end, its your choice to enroll in a DO program. If you think it is any less of a degree, perhaps you should apply to allopathic schools (if you have the stats). News flash, people only make fun of others when they know their getting to them... Its so childish! If you ask me, people like you are keeping this prejudice thing between MDs and DOs going. Its not just the allopaths.

SOO, let me make this painfully CLEAR to those of you who dont get my sense of humor and otherwise just have a hard time reading for context: I WAS MAKING FUN OF THE FACT THAT STUDENT AT COMBINED PROGRAMS SELF-SEGRIGATE. WHY? Because it is absurd. Those same students will potentially be working side by side in five to six years. SO I find it funny that they seperate themselves voluntarily in a classroom setting. For the love of all things holy, LSU-Tech and Joe6102 will you two please marry have lots of children immune to all things funny. (again I am being sarcastic)

LSU-Tech said:
As for as the issue at hand, I believe that integrating MDs and DOs for the first two years sounds like a great idea. The reason I think this is because when I was in high school, I went to an all white school. In return, I was somewhat prejudice. I disliked what I did not understand. However, when I went to college, and roomed with someone of a different race, I realized the ignorance behind the whole thing. I disliked what I knew nothing about. Now, I would not consider myself prejudice in the least.

But really LSU-Tech I was touched by your story of personal growth, it was like so cute and stuff.

DOPEDERSON · May 19, 2005

Fenrezz said:
The funny thing is, there isn't anywhere near as much bashing nowadays as there used to be, from what I remember. It seems to me most allopathic students accept that fact that DO's exist and go on with their lives. Then, suddenly, one guy will post something about admission statistics and the thread goes to ****.

However, I have no objections to the MD/DO bashings that go on here. I think it's kind of healthy to have pre-med and medical students getting elevated blood pressures over theories, philosophies, and concerns about statistics (I myself am guilty of this, by the way). Keeps the blood pumping, and keeps students passionate about their future careers. It also helps re-affirms our delusions about why we want to be doctors. Makes for great reading, anyway. Much better than the "How long should my interview answers be?" threads.

Personally, I think the AOA and AMA should get together for once and organize a "Medical Rumble" day, where the nations future allopathic and osteopathic physicians meet on a muddy field and throw haymakers at each other, "Outsiders" style (or at least Detroit Pistons fan style). Let's beat the crap out of each other so that for at least one day we don't have to think about how much we hate our lives and regret our decisions to go into medicine. 👍

Oh god finally someone who is funny.

premyo2002 · May 19, 2005

lfesiam said:
""

I know about what happend in cali, premyo. That is the reason why I said that it will not happend anytime soon since it failed in cali. What happend was, many (more than half, 2/3 i believe) DO students & graduates from the former College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, Los Angeles, "turncoated" and traded in their DO title for an MD instead. Please refrain from assumption, I did a search and know about the merger well.

By the way, the merger took place in 1962 not 1970s, please get your facts straight.

"College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons, Los Angeles. Founded 1914 by the merger of the Pacific College of Osteopathy and the Los Angeles College of Osteopathy. Converted to allopathic college in 1962. "
http://history.aoa-net.org/Education/collegehist.htm

No need to get pissy..
I said "from what I remember", this indicates that I wasn't "getting my facts straight". I'm sorry that I didn't remember much about the merger; finals have seemed to stress me more than normal. I knew it was awhile ago and didn't work out well. You didn't mention anything in regard to the failed merger and, seeing as I am not blessed with the ability to read your mind, I didn't know that you had researched it so extensively. I was just trying to be helpful and share information that many premed's don't know. Also, I said to look it up, showing that I am in no way a perfect source on this matter.

LSU-Tech · May 19, 2005

DOPEDERSON said:
But really LSU-Tech I was touched by your story of personal growth, it was like so cute and stuff.

DOPEDERSON,

Maybe you should think twice next time before you make a trollish post in the pre-Allo forum. I mean, do you really think youre above allopathic medicine. As far as my story goes, it was a mere example of what I was trying to explain. By the way, you act like you have a chip on your shoulder towards MDs. Seeing as you obviously hang out in the Allopathic forum, I assume that you are indeed a want-to-be MD. Lets cut the crap, Osteopaths do have lower admission standards. Dont even try to say they dont. The AOA allows students to retake courses (taking the most recent grade), the average GPA is like a 3.2-3.3. If you cant make that by retaking and replacing low grades then your just plain dumb. The average MCAT score of around a 24. Im not trying to belittle you want-to-be profession, but you are definitely not above the MD. Nor is the MD (by law) more prestigious or above the Osteopaths. As far as the cheap shots that you have made to everyone since you started posting on the SDN; all I can say is lose the attitude you stupid little pre-med. (Yes, I took the liberty of looking though the majority of your posts. Can we say ATITUDE???) Loosen up and maybe one day you can carry on a mature conversation with the adults.JACKASS

tkim · May 19, 2005

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